Your Government In Action Options

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

Similar to the previous post on someone not knowing that stars are "suns":  My father was not well educated.  Once, as a kid (probably in the mid 1960's), we were watching on TV the old 1950's classic movie "When Worlds Collide".  Near then end, when the star Zyra collides with and destroys the earth... he said "Isn't that a bit far fetched: stars are tiny, and fall to the earth as shooting stars."  When I said "Gee, Dad, stars are like the sun... some much bigger.  Don't you KNOW that!"  He seemed quite taken aback and embarrassed by that. 

For someone not into science, I could easily see with our educational program here in the U.S. how this fact could be overlooked or forgotten.  Especially for those who were not interested, and just sort of slept through 7th grade science (which was the last time in grades K-12 that we dealt with astronomy in my school system).

My father too was thinking that the spots on the Moon were clouds (in our atmosphere).
That in prehistory people were afraid of eclipses is understandable (it is a breathtaking view, and seeing the daylight switching off like a lamp could be really frightening if you don't know what happens). But since at least one century we have SCHOOL with (in theory) basic explanations about what are stars, planets, eclipses, etc. So the problem is
1) either these basic science notions are not really presented in school curicula
2) there are still many persons who are not interested by the world they live in, just into their personnal surrounding.

A third point is about science-fiction, which often presents things in a fancy way, not helping people to sort what is real science extrapolation and what is pure fantazy. For instance a recent movie like "fusion" contains many grossly inexact statements (the solar wind able to melt massive steel structures!), not accounting with enormous calculation mistakes (a machine able to melt millions of tons of rock at a second, powered by a nuclear reactor, and when you remove the plutonium bar of the reactor, it is not so hot that you can touch it! Whooaaaaa!) This does not help to bring basic science education to people.

[ljk4-1]

In Sunday's Book Review: 'A People's History of Science,'

by Clifford D. Conner
=====================================================

Review by JONATHAN WEINER

Clifford D. Conner thinks snobbery has distorted the writing
of history from ancient times to the present. In writing
about science, for instance, historians celebrate a few great
names - Galileo, Newton, Darwin, Einstein - and neglect the
contributions of common, ordinary people who were not afraid
to get their hands dirty. With "A People's History of
Science," Conner tries to help right the balance. The
triumphs of science rest on a "massive foundation created by
humble laborers," he writes.

Unfortunately, this people's history isn't very good with
people. Conner is too busy counterbalancing the Great Man
theory to tell us about, say, Newton's extraordinary mind.
The Great Man theory may not make a good history of science,
but neither does what you might call the Great Mass theory.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/18/books/re...html?8bu&emc=bu

[Tom Ames]

The review that follows, of Chris Mooney's bok The Republican War on Science is also very good.

[ljk4-1]

Before we draw conclusions from this... do you (any reader in particular) know that some languages have postpositions instead of prepositions? That SVO and SOV are the most common word orders of languages, but all six possible word orders have been know to occur? That languages with postpositions tend to be SOV? That South America has the most native languages of any continent? That Papua New Guinea has more than any other continent? Etc...

There is a whole world of less-obscure to more-obscure knowledge to be known about dozens of different fields. A common trend among people who who have specialized in one is to endlessly tsk-tsk the rest of the world because they haven't also specialized in that field. Probably the number of people who don't know the basics of comparative linguistics is about the same as the number of people who don't know the basics of astronomy. But it's not a reasonable conclusion that both of those population-wide shortcomings is a shame. What would your education consist of: 700 brief introductions to every field?

All told, if someone was going to pick a field not to know anything about, astronomy is a hell of a good choice in terms of day to day usefulness.

For the nth time, I'll say that the "tsk-tsk"ing is not a flattering characteristic of the cognoscenti. We can easily devise basic tests that you, too, would get a zero on.

People should have at least a basic knowledge about the wider Universe they live in. They don't need to become astronomers as a result, but I think having a bigger perspective than the one they usually get stuck on this planet and self-centered group of societies will go a long way towards makig things better for all of us in the long run.

Yes, everyone should know that stars are other suns, that we live on a finite planet orbiting a star in a galaxy of stars. That the Universe is composed of billions of galaxies full of such stars. If people don't know what kind of place they really live in, we might as well go back to a Ptolemaic system.

There was a good reason Carl Sagan had the Voyager 1 engineers point the space probe's cameras back at the Sol system in 1990. The engineers objected that nothing could worthwhile could be seen. Sagan said that was the point.

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

People should have at least a basic knowledge about the wider Universe they live in.  They don't need to become astronomers as a result, but I think having a bigger perspective than the one they usually get stuck on this planet and self-centered group of societies will go a long way towards makig things better for all of us in the long run.

Yes, everyone should know that stars are other suns, that we live on a finite planet orbiting a star in a galaxy of stars.  That the Universe is composed of billions of galaxies full of such stars.  If people don't know what kind of place they really live in, we might as well go back to a Ptolemaic system.

There was a good reason Carl Sagan had the Voyager 1 engineers point the space probe's cameras back at the Sol system in 1990.  The engineers objected that nothing could worthwhile could be seen.  Sagan said that was the point.

Well said, ljk4-1


And if the knowledge of our position in the universe had something to do with the global bettering of the world we see since one century or two (human rights, democracy, abolition of slavery, humanitarian action...)?

I think it has.

If you look right now in the world, you soon notice that violence, fundamentalism and dictatures arise only where there are uneducated people.

However living without knowing about space is exactly like living in a house without windows, not knowing about the sun and sky and other people.
Everybody has the right to a window!!! (knowing the universe through school, correct medias, informed TV broadcast, etc) I do not want to see space-illiterate people!


And at last everybody have some moral duty to look through the window at least once in their lifetime...

[Toma B]

Everybody has the right to a window!!! (knowing the universe through school, correct medias, informed TV broadcast, etc) I do not want to see space-illiterate people!
And at last everybody have some moral duty to look through the window at least once in their lifetime...

Many people are just too lazy to learn or just see something for themselves...gosh, they are too lazy to even think for themselves...

One of many examples:
There was Solar eclipse lately, visible from where I live as a partial SE...I was at work at that time so I told my co-workers what’s happening and result was that ONE of mine 10 co-workers decided to stand up from his desk for about 10-20 seconds, take Solar Eclipse sun glasses that I brought with me and look at some 80-90% eclipsed Sun.
-How about that "look through the window" Richard?

Some people are just so blind to all the beauty, and so happy about it...and when they grow old they complain that they didn't see much in their lifetime...I hate that kind of people...
BTW that's why I love this forum soo much...

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

Many people are just too lazy to learn or just see something for themselves...gosh, they are too lazy to even think for themselves...

One of many examples:
There was Solar eclipse lately, visible from where I live as a partial SE...I was at work at that time so I told my co-workers what’s happening and result was that ONE of mine 10 co-workers  decided to stand up from his desk for about 10-20 seconds, take Solar Eclipse sun glasses that I brought with me and look at some 80-90% eclipsed Sun.
-How about that "look through the window" Richard?

Some people are just so blind to all the beauty, and so happy about it...and when they grow old they complain that they didn't see much in their lifetime...I hate that kind of people...    
BTW that's why I love this forum soo much...

To us to share our love of space... what do I say, it is even not love, it is just basic involvement into life. We sew seeds for centuries to come, an unrewarding process. But I would never abandon it.

I France in the last total eclipse in 1998, there was ten of thousands of people gathered all along the central line. Pity that there was clouds. (I rather choose to study the meteo from myself, and try to find a good place, somewhere between Normandy and Bayern. My weather prediction was good, I found one of the very few places with some holes in the clouds). This reminds me of an eclipse in the early 20th century where children at school were FORBIDDEN to look at the eclipse!! So there is some progress. Slow, but it is.

[Toma B]

I France in the last total eclipse in 1998, there was ten of thousands of people gathered all along the central line. Pity that there was clouds. (I rather choose to study the meteo from myself, and try to find a good place, somewhere between Normandy and Bayern. My weather prediction was good, I found one of the very few places with some holes in the clouds).  This reminds me of an eclipse in the early 20th century where children at school were FORBIDDEN to look at the eclipse!! So there is some progress. Slow, but it is.

That was 11th August 1999 isn't it? I saw it too...one of the most exiting moments of my life that was ...it was BEAUTIFULL!!!
I am ashamed to speak here about media lies that precluded eclipse but I will...
It was something like "DON"T LOOK AT THE SUN OR YOU WILL GET PEMANENTLY BLIND AND YOU WILL DIE IF YOU WANDER OUTSIDE OF YOUR PROPERLY DARKENED ROOM...BECAUSE OF ALL THAT RADIATION !!!"
...and this wasn't begining of 20th century but end of it...
I SWEAR IT WAS IN STATE NEWS!!!

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

That was 11th August 1999 isn't it? I saw it too...one of the most exiting moments of my life that was     ...it was BEAUTIFULL!!!
I am ashamed to speak here about media lies that precluded eclipse but I will...
It was something like "DON"T LOOK AT THE SUN OR YOU WILL GET PEMANENTLY BLIND AND YOU WILL DIE IF YOU WANDER OUTSIDE OF YOUR PROPERLY DARKENED ROOM...BECAUSE OF ALL THAT RADIATION !!!"
...and this wasn't begining of 20th century but end of it...    
        I SWEAR IT WAS IN STATE NEWS!!!

Looking the sun in front IS dangerous, I think. I did myself when I was a child, and had no problem afterward. But others had, there was cases of unrecoverable severe loss or blindness. So, even if the result depends on the person, it is rather unpredictable and I would strongly unadvise anybody to look at the sun in front. Anyway it is much more pleasant to look at it through specially designed glasses, the best are dark polymer sheets, and if we have not, black films are the best.
But:
1) during totality there are no danger at all
2) there is no need to protect from any radiation: during an eclipse there are LESS radiations than otherwise!!

This is simple to understand, but even simple things can be distorted...

Medias often play a shameful role about hiding or distorting basic science facts. However any news person should INFORM OF WHAT IS in place of "showing the image people expect"

[chris]

2) there is no need to protect from any radiation: during an eclipse there are LESS radiations than otherwise!!

Its actually MORE dangerous!

As the sun approaches totality, the total amount of light entering the eye is is equivalent to twilight, so the pupil opens a lot. Even with 99% of the sun obscured, the exposed crescent of the sun is still at full brightness, and when your lens focusses its image on your retina, you will get crescent shaped retinal burns. The retina feels no pain, and the damage can take a few hours to take full effect, at which point you've irreversibly damaged your sight.

NASA page here with references.

I found this information when I was looking for how to go about observing the sun during the transit of Venus.

Chris

edit: typos

[ljk4-1]

Well said, ljk4-1
And if the knowledge of our position in the universe had something to do with the global bettering of the world we see since one century or two (human rights, democracy, abolition of slavery, humanitarian action...)?

I think it has.

If you look right now in the world, you soon notice that violence, fundamentalism and dictatures arise only where there are uneducated people.

However living without knowing about space is exactly like living in a house without windows, not knowing about the sun and sky and other people.
Everybody has the right to a window!!! (knowing the universe through school, correct medias, informed TV broadcast, etc) I do not want to see space-illiterate people!
And at last everybody have some moral duty to look through the window at least once in their lifetime...

Also well said, Richard. Your analogy is what I often say to people, that we are like young children living in a room with closed windows, and few are encouraged or inclined to open them and look out at the wider reality.

I think everyone needs to take some form of the Red Pill.

http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php

http://www.whysanity.net/monos/matrix3.html

[JRehling]

Sure enough!

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

When I see somebody who don't know that stars are suns, I don't feel superior (and I think the same goes for most members of this forum) I just feel rather sad that they don't know for such basic life facts. Eventually I had to explain these facts to third world people, who had some excuse to be ignorant; so I learned them readily. But when I see people who HAD MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO KNOW, especially politicians or media people, (who are so often telling us what we must do or not, and how we must live) or people who REFUSE TO KNOW because they are full of prejudices of ideologies, I think there is somewhere a gross failure.

7000 basic topics to know? Yes we live in a difficult world, where we must fight every hour of the day and every day of the life to obtain tiny pieces of understanding, even of very useful and relevant understanding, a world where laziness and feeling unconcerned are the worse mistakes. But we are not 5 years old, we are all grown up, and had several years of school. If you divide all these hours of studying by 7000, that still makes 70 minutes which are enough to understand basic astronomy facts, and basic facts about many things else.

The problem is that, since the school is mandatory, we all had more or less lessons on basic astronomy facts, and basic facts on many other subject. But there are people who were not interested by knowing the universe, just by their egocentric gesticulations.

I think for instance to city gangs, who had the same school opportunities than us, but who rejected everything, just holding the walls all the night long, without even noticing these tiny specs of light (often only messengers of hope in the ghettos). I think at all these people interested into egocentered strategies to grab favours or money, I think to all these people who were skilful enough to gather our votes or to get the best audimat, and who now keep with a great smile spreading their ignorancce of so many basic facts (not just astronomy, thoroughly all the 7000 without any exception).

That all does makes me feel superior, I just feel sad for them.

[JRehling]

Interesting thought.

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

I allow that what stars are, and what object the Earth orbits are now basic life facts. The presence of Moon craters is not, any more or less than the top ten fashion designers active today comprise a basic life fact. Nor is it a basic life fact how many galaxies there are (even that there are more than ten).

I think a basic Internet truism is that you know you have a good argument when people argue against some trumped-up version of what you are saying instead of what you have actually said.
I am reminded of an episode of thirtySomething in which a successful adult remembered the "city gang" members at his school, and what it was like when they were all 15 years old. He said, "I got to be Class President and they got to have sex." Don't be so sure that all of the city gang members are missing life while all of the Class Presidents are experiencing life fully.

Pretend for a moment that astronomy and academia are the world you live on, and consider visiting other people's worlds, not just as you see them from 35,000,000 km away.

????? ??? I must confess I am a bit lost in your argumentation, and I especially don't see where is the point. I just reply this time to say that:
1) I said nothing about sex
2) I was never class president. Anyway this would not have avoided me to have sex.
3) I never leaved this world since my birth.
4) Especially I never went so far than 35 000 000 kms, no more than 11kms (in airliners).
5) If I had went in another world, I think I would have told everybody for long ago.
6) If I had told, nobody would have believed me, hahahaha