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Posted by: paxdan Aug 16 2005, 08:56 AM

I've moved my response from the Deep Impact thread....

I once flew a very large delta kite at night with a glow stick attached, that one made it into the local newspaper. I've also had a crop circle i made reported at the back of the Fortean times. I have a pan of that i took with my 35mm camera which was one of the first pans i ever assembled.

Thats two, has anyone else ever been responsible for lights in the sky or strange phenomenon?

Posted by: Bob Shaw Aug 16 2005, 02:54 PM

I will confess: I have been known to fly a nifty little r/c electric flying saucer of an evening, preferably where the innocent may see it. A friend of mine once flew a much more substantial Cox glo-plug i/c powered saucer, which he promptly lost (it was entirely uncontrolled!). He foolishly (he said) went to the local police station in the hope of registering it as lost property, but they wouldn't believe him.

And a number of years ago some friends of mine discovered the joys of a redundant can of balloon gas and some large bin-liners...

Hehe.

Posted by: Bob Shaw Aug 16 2005, 02:55 PM

Paxdan:

More details, please!

Hehe.

Bob Shaw

Posted by: paxdan Aug 16 2005, 05:41 PM

the crop cicles are ridiculously easy:

Me and a friend did them during the summers of 96 and 97. We used to go scouting for good sites during the day, then sneak out on our bikes at night when there was no moon and make them under the cover of darkness.

Equiptment: black clothing, a plank a bit over a meter in length, an inch thick by 6 inches wide, some rope and a metal spike (we used a crowbar).

Method: Make three holes in the plank, two of which are used for a loop of rope that you hold the plank with, the other hole links the rope to the spike in the middle of the circle. Then you simply walk around in circles flattening the crop by pressing down with your foot on the plank each step, lengthening the rope by the witdth of the plank after each rotation. We always went round the edge of the circle tidying up the margin ensuring that it was sharp and that there are were no half flattened stems, finally remove the crow bar and regrade the hole in the middle et voila.

The amazing thing was the speed with which it was possible to do them. Get to field, walk along the tyre tracks till you get to nice location drop the board walk along it drive in crowbar and do first circle spinning board around the spike, attach rope then go round in circles till you reach the desired size. clean up and leave. We never spent more than 45 mins in a field. They never got very complicated either, the most we did in one field was 3 circles in a equilateral triangle and never anything other than simple circles.

It was apparent that the technique would have scaled up and with a bit of planning it would have been easy to make all the complicated patterns that appear. In fact when the guys who were doing the bulk of the UK ones fessed up, it turned out they used the exact same method. Attached is a very very crude sketch showing the mysterious crop-circle forming force in action.

The panorama I took is a glue and scissors job from (i think) 1996, i don't have it with me at the moment but should be able to lay my hands on it and scan it for sometime next week.

Posted by: Myran Aug 16 2005, 06:50 PM

No I havnt started a hoax in the true word of the sense, but once it was a close call I ended up filing something that could have been seen as a UFO observation. Many years back, in the late 1960's perhaps early 1970's I followed one object with a very strange movement in the sky. In the last moment and after discussing my observations with a friend living nearby we came to the conclusion that it was a Soviet military communications satellite in molniya orbit that I had been tracking.
What started my head spinning was the fact that the object appeared to change direction, and so wasnt any ordinary satellite, but from the surface that is moving molinya satellites can appear to do the 'impossible'.

Posted by: paxdan Aug 24 2005, 04:09 PM

OK here is a photo of the crop circle my friend and i made back in 1996. I coudn't be fussed to scan it so here is a digital photo of the assembled 6x4 prints. The whole thing is mounted on a sheet of thick paper.

Yup thats me, i took the pan with my friend standing where i was then asked him to snap the centre shot of me from the same spot.

shortly after this was taken i fell out of the big tree in the left-most frame whilst trying to take an overhead view, right on my back into a bramble filled ditch from the lowest horizontal branch on the left hand side.


[attachment=1270:attachment]

Posted by: ljk4-1 Aug 24 2005, 04:30 PM

Did you know that Sir Isaac Newton used to fly kites with lanterns at night in his younger days, then visit the local pubs to listen to the farmers and other peasants get all excited and scared about the ominous "comets" they saw in the sky the night before?

So hoaxing is obviously a long tradition with Newton as part of its heratige!

About ten years ago, my parents were witness to an object in the sky that looked like a glowing wagon wheel. Turned out to be a lit balloon hoax.

When I was in the Boy Scouts, one night we had just left our meeting at dusk and saw a large white ball with a smaller red light in its center sailing overhead without a sound. Turned out to be a weather balloon with a red light hanging below, the balloon itself being lit by the Sun which was still visible at its altitude. But I tell you, for a few moments there, it was not something easily explained, and anyone who said it did not look or sound like an airplane would have been correct.

Question is: Are hoaxes hurting the cause of science to find the real answers to these phenomenon? Most people in the general public are inclined to buy into the UFO as alien spaceships scenario. After all, it's a lot more exciting and fun to think that strange object in the sky is a visitor from another world rather than the possibility that some kid with too much time on his hands just fooled you.

People want mystery in their lives. Science keeps taking that away, in their view. I don't agree with that view, as I think science keeps finding things even more amazing than our limited imaginations can produce all the time. But I seem to be in a minority camp here. Thus I ask, do hoaxes hurt beyond just being a joke played on a gullible public?

Posted by: ljk4-1 Aug 24 2005, 06:03 PM

Crop Circles in Kansas imaged from space!

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17006


Speaking of hoaxes, I was visiting Roswell, NM once in the summer of 1947...

Posted by: Palomar Aug 26 2005, 02:20 PM

*Are you referring to simply making a circle? I've seen some rather elaborate "crop circles" which seems it'd take quite a bit of preplanning and a good sense of direction to maintain rigid uniformity of the complex shape made.

And no, I don't believe in UFOs. Just wondering how anyone manages to make intricate, symmetrical, elaborate designs ... at night and with a humble method, no less.

--C

Posted by: ljk4-1 Aug 26 2005, 02:37 PM

UFOs and aliens are NOT a belief system. Whatever they may be, there ARE objects of unknown identity seen in the sky all the time - what you THINK they are is another matter.

And as for alien life in general, while we have not found it yet, there is a scientific basis for its existence.

It just drives me crazy when people say they do or do not "believe" in UFOs and aliens. It's not a religion or an article of faith, except for those who wear sweatsuits and Nikes.

Posted by: Palomar Aug 26 2005, 03:40 PM

*Let's back up, shall we?

1. I didn't say anything about aliens. Of course there is likely intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.

2. If I say "I believe in UFOs," people will automatically associate me with loons who wear sweatsuits and Nikes.

Are you always this friendly and welcoming of newcomers? No one likes being talked down to. And please don't presume to know me.

--C

Posted by: ljk4-1 Aug 26 2005, 03:44 PM

I wasn't making a comment on you or trying to be rude. I was commenting on how folks use the word believe when they talk about UFOs and aliens. No offense was intended.

Posted by: Palomar Aug 26 2005, 07:21 PM

*I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

Posted by: Bob Shaw Aug 26 2005, 11:13 PM

Palomar:

Practice makes perfect!

Bob Shaw

Posted by: Bob Shaw Aug 26 2005, 11:17 PM

Paxdan:

Your mission, should you wish to accept it:

Go out into the wilds of Wiltshire (or anywhere else suitable) and replicate the logo of Unmanned Spaceflight.com. It's got curves, straight lines, and the rest, and is far from complex.

Perhaps Doug will assist...

(grin)

Bob Shaw

Posted by: helvick Aug 26 2005, 11:36 PM

Hey - the UMSF logo should be no problem - my ultra dilute viking heritage is tickled pink by this astounding "crop circle"
http://www.brentberryarts.com/crop_circle_viking_compass__.htm

Posted by: Bob Shaw Aug 26 2005, 11:40 PM

Hmmm...

..I smell Photoshop!

So there!

Oggam, anyone?

Posted by: Richard Trigaux Aug 27 2005, 09:27 AM

One thing which much astonishes me is that, in the hypothesis that actual crop circles are the work of hoaxers, there are no mistakes.

I explain: it is very difficult to move precisely into a field (by night and even by day) where we have no visual landmarks. At best we could have an accuracy of 10m. We could do simple figures with means such as ropes, etc. but most crop circles today are very complex, understand they contains tens of circles and straight lines, and are very accurate (in the 0.1m range), and never featuring mistakes or blunders, while still "appearing" in a short time. To achieve such a precision and complete absence of errors in complex figures would require that the hoaxers use some sophisticated electronic mean, with a military organisation.

What Bob shaw suggests:

is that the link provided by helvick would be a painting whe could obtain with Photoshop. In this case really it looks like that, but are all the images published in "pro-circle" reviews and sites fabricated with graphic softwares? It seems unlikely, as many are perspective views, with people, etc, and even "con-circle" people found them in real fields.

Posted by: djellison Aug 27 2005, 10:38 AM

You can have an accuracy as high as one can measure a piece of rope The techniques are very simple and very accurate.

Doug

Posted by: Richard Trigaux Aug 27 2005, 10:57 AM

You could do like http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~pppf6/Research/CropCircle/1996/gif/t451july96.gifwith only ropes? I implies non-circular lines, and also large dimentions (How to pull a lengthy rope without it touching the crop?)

Posted by: djellison Aug 27 2005, 11:22 AM

"You could do like this onewith only ropes? "

Yes. You could replicate it on a piece of paper with a compass - you can replicated in a field with rope.

I'm going to give you a bit of a warning here - you're beginning to step into the anomalistic / kook regieme. I've only recently removed someones account for this - and I dont want to have to do it again. This is unmannedspaceflight.com - not cropcircles.com - please respect that.

Doug

Posted by: abalone Aug 27 2005, 12:41 PM

I have been watching the dicussion for a while without comment. I agree with Doug, it does not belong here. It is a insult to science and has the potential to cause a lot of harm.

There are a lot of gullible people in the world, they can"t help it, and this type of thing takes advantage of their gullability. To me making crop circle or wasting time on other hoaxes just means that scientists energy is diverted from real work to wasting time answering stupid media question. Hoaxes are a disservice to science, they are anti-science and bring no credit to anyone that particpates in them.

It bad enough to walk into your local newsagent and to look for the most recent copies of my favorite astronomy and science mags only to finding the science section packed with "New Age" and "Astrology" trash.

As for UFO's visiting Earth, whenever some poor guillible fool that has seen too many crop circles tries to persuade me with his half-backed conspiracy crap or the latest fruit-loop case that has been kidnapped and had weird sexual experiments performed on them, I simply ask them this question.



If these Aliens come from such a superior and advanced society that is able to travel the vast distance between the stars at will.................

When they come to Earth, no doubt after many lonely years in space,....

Why do they only ever talk to idiots?

Posted by: Bob Shaw Aug 27 2005, 12:57 PM

I think we're probably all agreed that the whole UFO/Astrology/Crop Circle thing is, indeed, sheer guff (well, I *hope* we are, anyway!) but discussion of such matters is of interest insofar as it relates to the public perception of reality. The mainstream media are - frankly - counter-informative most of the time, and feed the masses with unreality almost by default. It behoves us as rational (but see below) and well-informed beings to at least be aware of current fads and fancies, if only in terms of the sociology. So long as we're clear about why we are discussing certain things, there's no harm done.

Or maybe 'sociopathy'...

Human beings are *not* rational - but they do rationalise and seek out patterns in the world, and if we are to persuade our fellows that a world-view based on science is the way forward then we must attempt to understand the processes that militate against science, ranging from the naive 'I want to believe' right through to the organised counter-science movements which are out there.

In short: Know Your Enemy!

Posted by: abalone Aug 27 2005, 02:10 PM

True Bob as long as it is a discussion amoung educated people. I was ckecking the local news just now and like a prophecy, an example of the kind of nonsense that the mischievous perpetrate on the gullible.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1446143.htm

Posted by: dvandorn Aug 27 2005, 08:17 PM

The real problem lies in the fact that when intelligent people discuss such pseudo-scientific claptrap, it's usually with an eye towards how to take advantage of the situation, or how to copy the techniques in order to hoodwink the public over more prosaic matters. And thus, harm *can* be done.

However, since none of us seem to fall into either category (the easily duped, or those who are desperate to dupe others), the discussion in this forum really does do no harm.

-the other Doug

Posted by: Bob Shaw Aug 28 2005, 12:08 AM

other Doug:

If you want, I'll tell you my s c 1 e n t 0 1 0 g y story (spread out and buggered up so that Mr Google can't make a hit!).

In summary: a person of that persuasion ran away, after an innocent (but almost well-informed) comment from a young lady who thought she'd met Mr H...

Oh, how we laughed!

Bob Shaw

Posted by: tty Aug 28 2005, 05:43 PM

You wouldn't need Photoshop to make ogham "crop circles". As a matter of fact it would seem to be the ideal cropcirclish alphabet, consisting exclusively of short straight lines crossing a long straight line. Also it has nice myftic celtic associations.

tty

Posted by: algorimancer Aug 29 2005, 06:53 PM

I'm surprised that I haven't encounted an ogham font for windows. Had a lot of fun with ogham back in high school ... once turned-in a paper to a science teacher which confused the heck out of her

Posted by: Bob Shaw Aug 29 2005, 09:08 PM

I think I have one, somewhere... ...great for casting the runes!

Posted by: Myran Aug 29 2005, 10:05 PM

No cant agree abalone, this is discussed in the CCC subsection, it was interesting to read first hand accounts of people who actually made crop circles.

Have found two myself, one when I was a child and one other in my early twenties, together with a friend of mine we did reach the conclusion that it was natural, and it was just a plain circle and were we thought a whirlwind had been involved.
Now when farmers use chemicals to shorten the straws, such should be very rare perhaps not found at all.
As for any connection in all this with UFO's or whatever, I haven't even considered the possibilty. I came up with my own (lengty and less elegant version) of Fermi's Paradox long ago.

As for a current hoax the 'Mars Spectacular' chainletter have resurfaced.
Stating that on august 27 Mars will appear "as large as the full Moon to the naked eye."

We all here would fall over backwards over the thught that anyone believes that, yet its spread so the astronomical knowledge among many are sad indeed.

Edit on the spam/chainletter item.