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The Pioneer Anomaly
remcook
post Aug 16 2005, 04:27 PM
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http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/pioneer_anomaly_faq.html

The planetary society may be checking it out...

QUOTE
The Planetary Society has committed to raise the funds to preserve the priceless Pioneer data from destruction.


After years of analysis, but without a final conclusion, NASA, astonishingly, gave up trying to solve the "Pioneer Anomaly" and provided no funds to analyze the data. The Pioneer data exists on a few hundred ancient 7- and 9-track magnetic tapes, which can only be read on "antique" outdated computers. The agency is going to scrap, literally demolish, the only computers able to access and process that data in the next few months!
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The Messenger
post Sep 5 2005, 04:28 PM
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All of these approaches use assumptions we should not be making. If there is a variation in the permeabiliy of space to mass necessary to explain the phenomena I outlined above, there is almost certainly a corresponding gradient in the speed of light.

This can be demonstrated with the Galileo paradox:

Put Galileo on the Dark side of Mercury, rolling his balls to measure the gravitational constant. Because of the nearby mass of the sun, the balls will roll slower, which would cause Galileo, not knowing about GR, to underestimate the G constant. EXCEPT Galileo's clock is also ticking slower, so the value would be very close to correct.

Watching the experiment from an Earth frame of reference, the balls would appear to roll slower, and a GR space curvature correction must be used to explain the phenomena.

Three things: 1) The same observations can be interpreted as a time or space dilation, depending upon the frame of reference. 2) Performing the experiment on Mercury, Galileo could be completely oblivious to the need for GR to explain the results from Earth. 3) It is relatively simple to transfer both frames of reference to a single coordinate system where the absolute pathlength through a given volume of space varies as a function of mass.

Magueijo eluded to this transformation in Faster Than the Speed of Light, where he found it difficult to prove his theory required a new physical concept; and not just a transformation of GR into a completely compatible coordinate system, where pathlengths and the speed of light vary, not time and space curvature. (I am of the opinion that this mathematic transformation provides a better conceptual bases for GR phenomenon.)

So any attempts to measure unknown or poorly characterized forces must also address an untested assumption in measurement theory: the Speed of light is an absolute constant that is not mass dependent; or more exactly: Current GR perameters correctly compensate for mass-dependant effects upon light.

Again, existing solar probes have tightly constrained any deviations from established GR constraints: Bertotti has used Cassini to constrain unexpected GR variance to a factor of 2.3x10^-5 near the Earth's orbit. Perhaps the best solar constraint on the speed of light is the Pioneer Anomally itself - 8x10^-9m/s^2, but this is only beyond the obital distance of Saturn. (Notice that since we use the two-way speed of light to determine the position of the Pioneer probes, the acceleration of the probes could be away from, rather than towards the sun, as long as it is of the same magnitude as any change in the speed of light.)

Bertotti, B., Iess, L., Tortora, P., “A test of general relativity using radio links with the Cassini spacecraft,” Nature 425, 374-376 (2003).

http://lanl.arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0411/0411082.pdf

Again, much of the science needed to nail down these possible discrepancies can be extracted from the current generation of probes, but only if the experimentors are aware of the unbridled parameters and the need for additional onstraints.

Edited to add:

One more question about LISA - unless and until the current LIGO generation of gravity antenna detect ANY gravitational phenomena, should we be vesting in another experiment? IAOTO the waves do exist, but we may be searching with the wrong kind of antenna.
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jamescanvin
post Sep 6 2005, 12:17 AM
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Heading off topic but...

QUOTE (The Messenger @ Sep 6 2005, 02:28 AM)
One more question about LISA - unless and until the current LIGO generation of gravity antenna detect ANY gravitational phenomena, should we be vesting in another experiment? IAOTO the waves do exist, but we may be searching with the wrong kind of antenna.
*


Well LISA will be serching in a completely different frequency band. A band which should include waves from binary neutron stars which pretty much must exists given current observations (and at a known amplitude), unlike LIGO which can only detect much more exotic and theoretical objects and mergers. So yes I do think it's worth investing in, even given the non-detections at LIGO.



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Posts in this topic
- remcook   The Pioneer Anomaly   Aug 16 2005, 04:27 PM
- - remcook   Some background reading... http://arxiv.org/find/...   Aug 16 2005, 04:40 PM
|- - tedstryk   Won't New Horizons be spin stabilized when not...   Aug 16 2005, 06:53 PM
|- - Jeff7   QUOTE (remcook @ Aug 16 2005, 11:40 AM)Some b...   Aug 17 2005, 07:09 PM
- - remcook   Quote from alan stern: QUOTE Yes, we spin most of...   Aug 16 2005, 07:43 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   Could not the Pioneer tapes be saved on a more mod...   Aug 17 2005, 06:37 AM
- - remcook   QUOTE It looks like the Pioneers have long stopped...   Aug 17 2005, 08:09 PM
- - deglr6328   QUOTE (remcook @ Aug 17 2005, 08:09 PM)that...   Aug 17 2005, 11:10 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (deglr6328 @ Aug 18 2005, 12:10 AM)Not ...   Aug 18 2005, 08:24 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   As far as I understand from readings in the press,...   Aug 18 2005, 06:59 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Aug 17 2005, 11:59 P...   Aug 26 2005, 09:08 PM
|- - antoniseb   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Aug 26 2005, 04:08 PM)...   Aug 26 2005, 10:42 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (antoniseb @ Aug 26 2005, 03:42 PM)The ...   Aug 29 2005, 05:25 PM
|- - algorimancer   It seems to me that a simple means of checking thi...   Aug 29 2005, 05:40 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (algorimancer @ Aug 29 2005, 10:40 AM)I...   Aug 29 2005, 06:12 PM
- - edstrick   Climate orbiter was not radar tracked, it was tran...   Aug 30 2005, 08:52 AM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (edstrick @ Aug 30 2005, 08:52 AM)There...   Aug 30 2005, 07:12 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Bill: Your links, er, don't! Bob Shaw   Aug 31 2005, 11:28 AM
|- - Mongo   That's strange; I just clicked on them and the...   Aug 31 2005, 02:45 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (Mongo @ Aug 31 2005, 03:45 PM)That...   Aug 31 2005, 03:42 PM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Aug 31 2005, 03:42 PM)I pro...   Aug 31 2005, 03:57 PM
- - The Messenger   I am at least as interested in the flight path ecc...   Aug 31 2005, 06:56 PM
|- - antoniseb   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Aug 31 2005, 01:56 PM)...   Aug 31 2005, 09:58 PM
- - dvandorn   Hmmm... well, the effect must be very, very minor ...   Aug 31 2005, 07:24 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   Thanks to recent posters this thread took an inter...   Sep 3 2005, 09:07 AM
|- - jamescanvin   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 3 2005, 07:07 PM...   Sep 5 2005, 12:13 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   A rather interesting prospective explanation of th...   Sep 3 2005, 10:07 AM
- - remcook   some people seem to agree and applied for funding ...   Sep 3 2005, 10:18 AM
- - The Messenger   Richard's proposed test of the Pioneer Anomaly...   Sep 3 2005, 05:00 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   Messenger, my idea was intended to detect a gravi...   Sep 4 2005, 07:03 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   The LISA observatory project will use three test m...   Sep 5 2005, 08:57 AM
- - The Messenger   All of these approaches use assumptions we should ...   Sep 5 2005, 04:28 PM
|- - jamescanvin   Heading off topic but... QUOTE (The Messenger ...   Sep 6 2005, 12:17 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 5 2005, 05:17 PM)Hea...   Sep 6 2005, 05:53 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   Thanks jamescanvin for the image and the info it c...   Sep 6 2005, 06:37 AM
|- - jamescanvin   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 6 2005, 04:37 PM...   Sep 7 2005, 12:27 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 7 2005, 12:27 AM)Yes...   Sep 7 2005, 05:42 AM
- - dvandorn   Once again, I'm asking a question that I proba...   Sep 7 2005, 07:36 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 7 2005, 07:36 AM)Does a...   Sep 7 2005, 10:28 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 7 2005, 03:28 AM...   Sep 8 2005, 06:21 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Sep 8 2005, 06:21 PM)I...   Sep 9 2005, 07:21 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 9 2005, 12:21 AM...   Sep 12 2005, 01:49 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Sep 12 2005, 01:49 PM)...   Sep 12 2005, 02:23 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 12 2005, 07:23 A...   Sep 12 2005, 06:56 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Sep 12 2005, 06:56 PM)...   Sep 13 2005, 10:15 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 13 2005, 05:15 A...   Sep 13 2005, 01:17 PM
- - edstrick   I'd have to check, but I think the Apollo 17 i...   Sep 7 2005, 08:22 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (edstrick @ Sep 7 2005, 09:22 AM)The in...   Sep 7 2005, 09:42 AM
||- - dvandorn   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Sep 7 2005, 04:42 AM)Oooh, ...   Sep 7 2005, 06:33 PM
||- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 7 2005, 07:33 PM)Oh, th...   Sep 7 2005, 08:47 PM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (edstrick @ Sep 7 2005, 03:22 AM)I...   Sep 7 2005, 06:41 PM
- - edstrick   When the gravimeter was proposed, selected and des...   Sep 7 2005, 10:38 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (edstrick @ Sep 7 2005, 10:38 AM)When t...   Sep 7 2005, 02:38 PM
- - edstrick   "From what I understand, though, even with th...   Sep 8 2005, 10:49 AM
- - edstrick   It has been hoped that cosmic sources of gravitati...   Sep 9 2005, 07:45 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (edstrick @ Sep 9 2005, 07:45 AM)As far...   Sep 9 2005, 08:17 AM
- - The Messenger   Suggestions, by anyone, of engineering on this sca...   Sep 13 2005, 04:16 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Sep 13 2005, 04:16 PM)...   Sep 13 2005, 06:06 PM
- - The Messenger   Returning to the Pioneer Anomally: You may or may...   Sep 14 2005, 03:31 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   Messenger, yes the Earth does have a "gravita...   Sep 14 2005, 03:46 PM
|- - ljk4-1   http://www.issi.unibe.ch/teams/Pioneer/ The Pione...   Oct 3 2005, 04:46 AM
- - edstrick   ljk4-1: "...The Pioneer Explorer Collaboratio...   Oct 3 2005, 07:15 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   Thanks ljk4-1 for your interesting contribution. A...   Oct 3 2005, 08:15 AM
- - deglr6328   sooooo did the planetary soc. get the data or what...   Oct 3 2005, 09:53 AM
|- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (deglr6328 @ Oct 3 2005, 02:53 AM)soooo...   Nov 10 2005, 01:29 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Nov 9 2005, 08:29 PM) We...   Nov 10 2005, 02:33 PM
|- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Nov 10 2005, 07:33 AM)De...   Nov 10 2005, 04:46 PM
- - edstrick   <grin> by "anomaly" I mean an ord...   Oct 3 2005, 09:57 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (edstrick @ Oct 3 2005, 09:57 AM)<gr...   Oct 3 2005, 12:40 PM
- - edstrick   Aliens?... I thought it was the CIA and FBI.... or...   Oct 4 2005, 06:27 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (edstrick @ Oct 4 2005, 06:27 AM)Aliens...   Oct 4 2005, 07:37 AM
- - edstrick   You know what the problem is with make-believe par...   Oct 4 2005, 10:51 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (edstrick @ Oct 4 2005, 10:51 AM)You kn...   Oct 4 2005, 04:41 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0504367 From: Gary...   Oct 4 2005, 07:35 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Paper: astro-ph/0506281 replaced with revised ve...   Oct 26 2005, 02:08 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Paper (*cross-listing*): gr-qc/0511026 Date: Sun...   Nov 9 2005, 04:32 PM
- - Myran   Calculations using the 'MOND' theory (Modi...   Nov 9 2005, 09:10 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   I wonder if we could do any theory of any kind, ad...   Nov 9 2005, 09:21 PM
- - mike   That's what a theory is.   Nov 9 2005, 09:42 PM
- - Myran   QUOTE Richard Trigaux said: I wonder if we could d...   Nov 10 2005, 05:21 AM
- - lyford   Call me old fashioned, but I am a bit wary of jett...   Nov 10 2005, 06:41 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (lyford @ Nov 9 2005, 11:41 PM)Call me ...   Nov 10 2005, 04:44 PM
|- - lyford   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Nov 10 2005, 08:44 AM)...   Nov 10 2005, 10:06 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0505310 From: Mic...   Dec 20 2005, 04:05 PM
|- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Jan 3 2006, 02:31 AM
|- - tfisher   I just read through the last paper linked. They...   Jan 3 2006, 07:10 AM
|- - ljk4-1   Paper: astro-ph/0504367 Date (v1): Sun, 17 Apr 20...   Jan 4 2006, 06:18 PM
- - tasp   I bet it is not as simple as this, but I will pos...   Jan 5 2006, 04:14 AM
|- - mchan   QUOTE (tasp @ Jan 4 2006, 08:14 PM)Any possib...   Jan 5 2006, 06:06 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (mchan @ Jan 5 2006, 07:06 AM)One probl...   Jan 5 2006, 08:52 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (ugordan @ Jan 5 2006, 09:52 AM)Wasn...   Jan 5 2006, 01:16 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Can New Horizons participate in this experiment? ...   Jan 5 2006, 02:22 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 5 2006, 02:22 PM)Can...   Jan 5 2006, 02:43 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 5 2006, 03:43 PM)That...   Jan 5 2006, 02:50 PM
- - tasp   If an objection to putting a Voyager into a slow s...   Jan 5 2006, 02:45 PM
- - djellison   Damn good point actually UG - hadnt thought of tha...   Jan 5 2006, 02:58 PM
- - ugordan   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 5 2006, 03:58 PM)Then ...   Jan 5 2006, 03:05 PM
- - NMRguy   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Feb 23 2005, 09:20 AM)Yes...   Jan 5 2006, 05:19 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (NMRguy @ Jan 5 2006, 05:19 PM)Alan add...   Jan 5 2006, 05:56 PM
- - tty   QUOTE (ugordan @ Jan 5 2006, 05:05 PM)Might h...   Jan 5 2006, 06:47 PM
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