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Lost landers from HiRISE, The next step
tuvas
post Jan 3 2007, 08:41 PM
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Okay, we now have definitive pictures of VL1, 2, Spirit, Opportunity, and a Pathfinder coming up soon. So, now, what would the lost landers look like, starting with Beagle, MPL, and Mars 6, which will be the easiest to find of the landers. Just curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
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dvandorn
post Jan 4 2007, 04:13 AM
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Let's see, a couple of responses, here...

Doug, I'm not sure we have a really good idea of what the MPL remains might look like. The greatest rate of landform change observed on Mars is in the polar regions; an awful lot of material moves around every Martian year when literally trillions of tons of solid CO2 gets laid down and then sublimates off.

Just for starters, I have to wonder what the simple weight of the dry ice built up on and over the crash (and the backshell & heat shield, for that matter) might have done to them. Just how deep does the dry ice layer lay down at MPL's latitude, anyway? Even if it wouldn't cover over MPL entirely, I'd think you would see some serious effects from being buried in dry ice.

Ditto for the 'chute. I don't know what was used to pigment MPL's 'chute, but I know a lot of dyes fade in extreme cold. After three winters, and dust deposition from the winds during sublimation season, I'm thinking that the 'chute may not be recognizable anymore.

And, yes -- the winds. We see that polar latitudes sublimate somewhat unevenly, with "warm" spots (thinner ice layers or rocks which receive more insolation through the dry ice cap and sublimate the frozen CO2 from below) clearing off and blowing dust onto adjacent dry ice surfaces, which creates more preferential sublimation, which creates more clear spots, until the whole surface is clear. The lander and any of its related EDL equipment might have created warm spots and been the sources of early clearing spots -- which means they might have been exposed to pretty stiff winds as pent-up CO2 gas blew through the ice ceiling. Hey, we *know* they blow through energetically enough to spray dust out onto adjacent dry ice-covered surfaces. What would such events do to the 'chute fabric (especially if it's super-cold)? What would they do to the wreck of MPL itself?

I mean, it's even possible that some pieces of MPL have been blown several meters away from the main crach site.

And to Bob, I'm on the fence as to whether the DS2 impact points would be obvious. We know that Spirit's heat shield drew a gouge into Bonneville's rim, which was extremely dark and contrasty with the surrounding materials. It was quite obvious in both MOC imagery and in the ground-level images from the far rim.

However, while MRO's view of Bonneville shows the heat shield, the albedo difference seems to be almost completely gone. I'll grant you, wind smoothing is probably at its peak effect at crater rims, but this would seem to argue against there being much in the way of identifying marks on the craters made by the penetrators. It might well be possible to identify the impact sites in other ways, but (especially after three Martian winters) I'm not all that sanguine that we'll be able to find them.

-the other Doug


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“The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
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- tuvas   Lost landers from HiRISE   Jan 3 2007, 08:41 PM
- - Tesheiner   > So, now, what would the lost landers look lik...   Jan 3 2007, 08:57 PM
|- - tuvas   QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Jan 3 2007, 01:57 PM) ...   Jan 3 2007, 09:15 PM
- - djellison   MPL will have to wait until Southern Summer I pres...   Jan 3 2007, 11:07 PM
|- - KobeDane   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 4 2007, 12:07 AM) ...   Jan 25 2012, 04:10 AM
|- - dilo   If I try to open any one of attached images in pre...   Jan 25 2012, 07:43 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (KobeDane @ Jan 24 2012, 08:10 PM) ...   Jan 25 2012, 07:59 AM
- - nprev   Has anybody derived an estimate of the overall dus...   Jan 3 2007, 11:47 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 3 2007, 11:47 PM) Has ...   Jan 4 2007, 12:31 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   I wonder how visible the impact points of the DS2 ...   Jan 4 2007, 12:52 AM
|- - climber   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jan 4 2007, 01:52 AM) I...   Jan 6 2007, 02:34 AM
- - dvandorn   Let's see, a couple of responses, here... Dou...   Jan 4 2007, 04:13 AM
|- - hendric   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jan 3 2007, 10:13 PM) L...   Jan 4 2007, 06:37 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jan 3 2007, 08:13 PM) J...   Jan 7 2007, 05:00 PM
- - edstrick   Terminology point: The Soviet Mars landers, as we...   Jan 4 2007, 12:47 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (edstrick @ Jan 4 2007, 12:47 PM) T...   Jan 4 2007, 08:40 PM
- - lyford   The Soviets were true pioneers of lithobraking...   Jan 4 2007, 04:58 PM
- - djellison   http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/tekton/crater_c.html C...   Jan 4 2007, 05:21 PM
|- - tuvas   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 4 2007, 10:21 AM) ...   Jan 4 2007, 09:22 PM
- - djellison   What we need is an MSL proposed landing at Isidis ...   Jan 4 2007, 09:35 PM
- - tim53   I was a bit disappointed to learn how small the Ru...   Jan 4 2007, 10:18 PM
|- - JonClarke   QUOTE (tim53 @ Jan 4 2007, 10:18 PM) I wa...   Jan 4 2007, 10:28 PM
- - edstrick   "...NEAR, Hayabusa, Phobos 1&2 and Phobos...   Jan 5 2007, 09:44 AM
- - ljk4-1   Though the odds are small until we can actually vi...   Jan 5 2007, 04:02 PM
- - nprev   Man, those were ambitious missions...I sure wish t...   Jan 6 2007, 01:06 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 6 2007, 01:06 AM) Man,...   Jan 6 2007, 01:33 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 5 2007, 08:06 PM) Man,...   Jan 6 2007, 02:39 AM
|- - As old as Voyager   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 6 2007, 02:39 AM...   Jan 6 2007, 10:10 AM
|- - tuvas   QUOTE (As old as Voyager @ Jan 6 2007, 03...   Jan 6 2007, 06:57 PM
- - nprev   Yeah, I'd buy that as a probable alternative e...   Jan 6 2007, 02:49 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 5 2007, 09:49 PM) Yeah...   Jan 6 2007, 02:52 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 5 2007, 06:52 PM...   Jan 6 2007, 03:16 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 6 2007, 02:52 AM...   Jan 6 2007, 05:12 AM
- - edstrick   As I think I've pointed out in discussions her...   Jan 6 2007, 11:29 AM
- - nprev   The ejecta color also has to be at least partially...   Jan 7 2007, 02:05 AM
- - Zvezdichko   It seems that the hunt for Beagle 2 has already be...   Feb 14 2007, 04:55 PM
- - djellison   When the seasons allow. The MPL site is in total d...   Feb 14 2007, 05:09 PM
- - robspace54   Emily L. at Planetary society posted this today: ...   Feb 15 2007, 06:57 PM
- - elakdawalla   Rob, you'll find the Beagle 2 discussion here....   Feb 15 2007, 07:06 PM
- - PDP8E   On the HiRise website this week (Feb2012) they pos...   Feb 18 2012, 04:29 AM
|- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (PDP8E @ Feb 17 2012, 08:29 PM) It ...   Feb 18 2012, 04:34 AM
|- - IM4   It maybe interesting to you that a parachute-like ...   Feb 21 2012, 04:11 PM
- - djellison   What was Mars 3's landing system like - and th...   Feb 21 2012, 04:42 PM
|- - IM4   QUOTE (djellison @ Feb 21 2012, 04:42 PM)...   Feb 21 2012, 05:29 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (IM4 @ Feb 21 2012, 09:29 AM) There...   Feb 21 2012, 05:33 PM
|- - dilo   The movie is really amazing, IM4... at the last mi...   Feb 21 2012, 08:09 PM
- - James Sorenson   Although this looks like an interesting candidate,...   Feb 21 2012, 06:09 PM
- - djellison   It's only 45deg South, and HiRISE images mid-a...   Feb 21 2012, 06:34 PM
- - PDP8E   That Soviet movie was very cool. Here are some of ...   Feb 21 2012, 06:41 PM
|- - Leither   In 'The Difficult Road to Mars' by VG Perm...   Feb 21 2012, 07:29 PM
- - hendric   If it is on top of the lander, the chute could sta...   Feb 21 2012, 08:07 PM
- - Phil Stooke   My concern about this is that I would not expect t...   Feb 22 2012, 02:37 PM
- - Zelenyikot   Difference in parachutes of Vikings and the Soviet...   Jan 24 2013, 12:48 AM
- - djellison   That's not a parachute - it's exposed bedr...   Jan 24 2013, 01:13 AM
- - Cosmic Penguin   Copying from another thread: plausible Mars 3 cand...   Apr 11 2013, 06:55 PM
|- - Liss   QUOTE (Cosmic Penguin @ Apr 11 2013, 10:5...   Apr 11 2013, 09:43 PM
- - nprev   I would call this intriguing, but far from definit...   Apr 11 2013, 07:12 PM
- - stevesliva   ^ Contrast-stretched image?   Apr 11 2013, 08:36 PM
- - PDP8E   Just got an email from the HiRise team for (one) o...   May 2 2013, 01:02 AM
- - vikingmars   Soviet Mars 6 parachute ? Well.. Unfortunately ...   May 29 2013, 03:14 PM
- - TheAnt   Speculation that HiRise might have spotted Beagle ...   Jan 14 2015, 05:44 PM
- - djellison   Discussion already started here : http://www.unman...   Jan 14 2015, 06:27 PM


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