Invoking The Voyagers Against Id Options

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

Spirituality is one that I have difficulty with because I don't understand it or empathise with it as a concept at all. Frankly I don't see the need (personally) which makes it very hard for me to take discussions on it seriously. Why does there need to be a higher purpose? After all very little that we see on earth or in the universe makes it seem at all likely that such a "Higher Purpose", if it exists, is anything but a very, very cruel purpose indeed. Why have predators and prey? Diseases? Death? What purpose do the myriad of hugely destructive forces in the universe have apart from just being forces? Personally I think I'd have a hard time remaining sane if I thought there was a "higher purpose" because I cannot see how such a thing could have any hand in the way things are. So I remain a happy rational atheist for the time being even though I have no explanation for how I'm able to think and cannot for the life of me get my head around why "what happened before the big bang" is a meaningless question.

It is difficult to figure if we stick to the naive story rehearsed by "believers": "there is a bearded god who created everything perfect, and after men (or rather they make bear the fault by women) introduced imperfection in his perfect design so that since he is angry after us". This does not make sense, it is just mythology (in the most rationalistic meaning) as much absurd as the Dogon mythology who tells that it is the fonio seed which created the universe (or something like that)

But if you consider that in spirituality there is "spirit" (the mind, not ghosts) you can then define spirituality as a more scientific (or at least reasonable) approach where we study things such as consciousness, happiness, purpose of life (with my opinion there is not "commissionned purpose", the consciousness itself implies its own purpose: to be happy, to get new abilities, to explore the universe, etc) from where you can infer morals, society models, etc. This is typically the approach of a doctrine such as Buddhism. After, what is there before the universe or after death, or if miracles are possible, this is a matter of metaphysics or parapsychology, but it is not the core of spirituality. So that an atheist like you could be in fact more spiritual that a religious nut (it is even very easy).

And, about the evolution of physical universe or life forms as well, I think that things happened like physicists and biologists discovered, except that the appearance of consciousness introduced stakes which are not present in a desert universe.

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

Actually, some of the more recent cosmological theories propose that our entire Universe consists of a membrane which floats through a matrix of higher physical dimensions.  It is but one of many such membranes, and the sudden creation of all of the matter and energy within the Universe occurred when our membrane touched another membrane, some 12 to 15 billion years ago.

It is fairly easy to understand without maths, if you consider a 3D universe (as the one we are familiar with) containing spheres (2D spherical surfaces) called branes. These spheres are roaming about, and when two meet, their intersection is a circle. (A one dimentional surface looping on itself). With the movement of the branes, this circle starts from a zero radius, then the radius increases very fast (the speed tends toward infinite when we approach time zero) and then much quieter. It is easy to build a mental image of this.

Then you just add two more dimentions to all of these objects: we are no more able to build mental images of them, but basically things work the same.

This hypothesis gives a strikingly understandable vision of the early universe, especially of inflation.

From a metaphysical point of view, this theory just eludes to a nearby infinity the question of the beginning of time, and it does not solve the question "why this universe exists", just sending to "why the brane universe exists". Things could be like that, but if so it would just add mistery. On the countrary general relativity can fairly easily envision curved space and beginning of time without any need of a higher dimentionnal space to contain all of them.

But physics too has an argument against this theory: the inflation would obey a power law, when observation shows an exponential law (as far as we can observe this).

Our mind has strong difficulties to envision a reality where time would not exist, or would have a beginning. But it could happen that things are really like that. It is not so difficult after all: mathematic theorems exist in a realm where there is no time. We cannot say that a mathematic theorem appeared at a given epoch!

[djellison]

We used to have this 'purpose' discussion when I was at school, late into the night we'd try and figure out why we all existed.

As a species, our purpose is to continue the existance of our species, maintain our survivability. How do we do that? Reproducing. But what's the point - what is the poing in continuing the species at all? Why do the obscure animals that have rare, complex mating rituals which barely work and struggle for survival etc bother doing it? For humans, it's not hard to figure out why we do it, but a spider, or a fish or a toad or a fly or a Marmoset or a Badger....why do they bother?

We never figured THAT one out.



Doug

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

We used to have this 'purpose' discussion when I was at school, late into the night we'd try and figure out why we all existed.

As a species, our purpose is to continue the existance of our species, maintain our survivability.  How do we do that? Reproducing.   But what's the point - what is the poing in continuing the species at all?  Why do the obscure animals that have rare, complex mating rituals which barely work and struggle for survival etc bother doing it?  For humans, it's not hard to figure out why we do it, but a spider, or a fish or a toad or a fly or a Marmoset or a Badger....why do they bother?

We never figured THAT one out.



Doug

Thank you for the interesting questionning, Doug.

I do not think we have any purpose such as "continuing the existance of our specy, maintain our survivability". Simply the self-formative process of evolution-selection produced beings which are able to reproduce and survive. There is no purpose at all (unless we suppose that the self-formative process was created by Intelligent Design to generate life forms at random!)

Animals have no purpose either. Simply they have, deeply implemented in their psychism, emotions and instincts which lead them into doing the right things. For instance if they see a viper, even for the first time, neurons react to this form, produce fear, and this fear will induce the individual in fleeing, shouting, etc, all relevant behaviours in the situation. The same is true for reproduction, etc. Animals do not need to reflect about what is good for them, and anyway they do not have the ability for this.

We, as nearby animal beings, are not really different, even if we put intellectual motives above our desires, such as perpetuating the social ideology (by reproduction) onto our basic sexual desire. But we (or at least some of us) have the ability to analyse the situation, and take decisions which are not necessarily what our animal part request us to do. For instance we can involve into art, spirituality, science, etc, in place of raising children.

In doing this, we create our own purposes, which are purposes of our consciousness. (or we re-discover purposes which were deeply burried into the very physical continuum of the universe, 13 billion years ago, if it was created.)

Perhaps the most basic purpose of consciousness is seeking pleasure. And, at this level, even animals were able to influence evolution, by creating pleasant body forms and sexual behaviours. They were the first Intelligent Designers!

Will our purposes (search for happiness, for knowledge, new abilities...) be an unprecedented breakthrough and drastic change of direction into the overal evolution of life? I hope so. We can do it.

[ljk4-1]

Not quite the same DA quote but definitely the same intent:

Also relevant:

Possibly on topic but totally irrelevant:

I also thought Douglas Adams had the human race right on target when we were described in the opening to Hitch-Hikers Guide as the species that once nailed a guy to a tree for saying that we should all be nice to each other.

[ljk4-1]

A little more speculation:

What if our Universe was created, not by a supernatural entity but by an advanced race from another universe that created ours either as a by-product of their version of the Large Hadron Collider or deliberately as an experiment? Either way the theory goes that such an event would leave the creators with no way to contact or find out about the universes they created, thus making them quite the Deists.

If we can envision such a thing, imagine what a really technologically advanced civilization can do. And may already have.


As for the purpose of the human species, what if life on Earth is essentially one giant organism with many complex, independent parts, which we cannot see as a whole because we are one of those parts? Think Gaia or Lem's Solaris.

What if our purpose is to deflect all those potentially life-threatening planetoids and comets from hitting Earth? Thus we were given big brains and space travel for that purpose. Of course these same tools may also be used to spread Earth life to other worlds, thus ensuring our survival. And of course it may have happened many times before, and is happening now in our galaxy and others.

I like Carl Sagan's view of intelligent life: It is a way for the Universe to know itself. And with such a big thing as a galaxy, one is going to need numerous intelligent species to comprehend it all.

[Jeff7]

We used to have this 'purpose' discussion when I was at school, late into the night we'd try and figure out why we all existed.

As a species, our purpose is to continue the existance of our species, maintain our survivability.  How do we do that? Reproducing.  But what's the point - what is the poing in continuing the species at all?  Why do the obscure animals that have rare, complex mating rituals which barely work and struggle for survival etc bother doing it?  For humans, it's not hard to figure out why we do it, but a spider, or a fish or a toad or a fly or a Marmoset or a Badger....why do they bother?

We never figured THAT one out.



Doug

Stephen Hawking said something to this effect, "Why does the Universe go to all the bother of existing?"

I think that any purpose in our life must come from us. I'm from the God-doesn't-exist camp, so that's what I've come up with. We were created by natural processes, and since we're the only ones with self-awareness and the ability to express that awareness to each other, we are able to seek reason for doing things. Animals just do things because they feel like it. We ask "why do we feel like it?" We evolved to do certain things, simple as that. Where you want to take it from there is up to you. I personally like the idea of improving the species, and eventually travelling to other star systems, and possibly encountering other life forms.

[mike]

I think that quite simply all reality is experiencing everything possible. Everything is infinite. There is no beginning and there is no end. Enjoy.

And as far as Adams' quote, Jesus wasn't exactly nice to everybody else. He forced temples to not take money, which is not nice for the temples, and he created bread from nowhere, which is bad for all those farmers who wanted to feed their families by selling their bread, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

[JRehling]

but a spider, or a fish or a toad or a fly or a Marmoset or a Badger....why do they bother?

It's just this.

All of the trillions of things that don't bother -- all of those critters that don't eat, that can't or choose not to reproduce -- aren't there.
The things that do bother are.

What you end up with is a landscape full of things that bother. And things like mountain ranges that don't need to.

Why is everything in the library written by people who choose to write? Same deal.

[chris]

....why do they bother?

We have a choice - we can consciously decide not procreate. Technology makes it much easier for us than the abstinence that would otherwise be required.

Some animals (rabbits and hares, I think) have the ability to reabsorb a fetus if food becomes scarce, but this is different from deciding not to go at like rabbits in the first place . So the answer is they bother because they have no other choice. A species that didn't wouldn't be here.

Chris

[djellison]

I understand that - but the question remains - WHY do they bother. They are around because they DO bother, but WHY do they bother. Why do we bother? They have no choice if they want to survive, but why does a species want to survive

Doug

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

I understand that - but the question remains - WHY do they bother.  They are around because they DO bother, but WHY do they bother. Why do we bother?  They have no choice if they want to survive, but why does a species want to survive

Doug

Doug, species have no brain, no consciousness. Only individuals have. And animals just do what they desire to do, eat, hide, have sex. From natural selection they inherited a psychism which make them desire to do what is required to survive and perpetuate the specie. But they can even not envision such a purpose. So they do not bother for this. They just bother for food, shelter and the like, without even imagine what is the stake beyond. The only marvellous thing is that all these individual unawareness make the specie survive, perpetuate and even evolve.

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

A little more speculation: 

What if our Universe was created, not by a supernatural entity but by an advanced race from another universe that created ours either as a by-product of their version of the Large Hadron Collider or deliberately as an experiment?  Either way the theory goes that such an event would leave the creators with no way to contact or find out about the universes they created, thus making them quite the Deists.

If we can envision such a thing, imagine what a really technologically advanced civilization can do.  And may already have.

Interesting speculation. It can eventually be true, but, as I replied to Dvandorn, it does not reply to a question "why the universe exists", it just eludes this question and reject it to the creation of our creators.

Eventually a civilisation able to create a universe may be able to see what happens in it, and eventually the technology required to create an universe would allow to modify it afterward. So communication is not a problem.


In all the theories where an intention created our universe or our specie, whatever the creator is a divine entity or a superior civilization, there would be a moment where he intervenes in a way or another, a moment where, being ripe enough, we discover some box containing instructions about what to do after, or who created us. So these theories can be tested:
-by finding traces of past intervention (such as Anthropism, traces of ancient spaceship visits, messages coded in our genes like here (a fiction story)
-by finding messages of the creator
-by finding indications about what to do or why we were created.

Until today no clear such artifact was found. But this makes very interesting the search of such past evidence, which, if they are known by some, may take the form of strange stories, strange things happening somewhere, or mythological accounts. Of course there is many work to clear out all the garbage in these domains, bit if only one such fact is clearly demonstrated, it would be a real philosophical breakthrough.
In the case of a divine creation, the message could be simply hidden in our hearts (our emotions) telling us, for instance, to love each others, to look for beauty, knowledge, etc, a thing that many people do spontaneously without communicating to each other. The reason why a divine creator would suppress all hard evidences and left us only with feelings would be simply to point at what is really relevant for Him. (Yes I see the many adepts of His Noodliness Cult on this forum replying that this is circular thinking or eluding rational questioning. I say no, it is lefting us with no other alternatinve that heeding our hearts, a thing which is not really difficult and which does not forbid us to make good physics and space exploration. By the way the elected people of His Noodliness is the italians, its main holy day is April 1st and he lefts us with no other evidence of his existence than being funny)

[ljk4-1]

By the way the elected people of His Noodliness is the italians, its main holy day is April 1st and he left him with no evidence of his existence than being funny)

I oftened wondered if the Universe was made as some giant practical joke, with God the Ultimate Practical Joker. It would explain so much.

"God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

And read his great science fiction story, Micromegas, here:

http://wondersmith.com/scifi/micro.htm

An excerpt:

The conversation grew more and more interesting, and Micromegas spoke as follows:

"O intelligent atoms, in whom the Eternal Being has been pleased to manifest His skill and power, you must doubtless taste joys of perfect purity on your globe; for, being encumbered with so little matter, and seeming to be all spirit, you must pass your lives in love and meditation--the true life of spiritual beings. I have nowhere beheld genuine happiness, but here it is to be found, without a doubt."

On hearing these words, all the philosophers shook their heads, and one, more frank than the others, candidly confessed that, with the exception of a small number held in mean estimation among them, all the rest of mankind were a multitude of fools, knaves, and miserable wretches.

"We have more matter than we need," said he, "the cause of much evil, if evil proceeds from matter; and we have too much mind, if evil proceeds from mind. For instance, at this very moment there are 100,000 fools of our species who wear hats, slaying 100,000 fellow creatures who wear turbans, or being massacred by them, and over almost all of Earth such practices have been going on from time immemorial."

The Sirian shuddered, and asked what could cause such horrible quarrels between those miserable little creatures.

"The dispute concerns a lump of clay," said the philosopher, "no bigger than your heel. Not that a single one of those millions of men who get their throats cut has the slightest interest in this clod of earth. The only point in question is whether it shall belong to a certain man who is called Sultan, or another who, I know not why, is called Caesar. Neither has seen, or is ever likely to see, the little corner of ground which is the bone of contention; and hardly one of those animals, who are cutting each other's throats has ever seen the animal for whom they fight so desperately."

"Ah! wretched creatures!" exclaimed the Sirian with indignation; "Can anyone imagine such frantic ferocity! I should like to take two or three steps, and stamp upon the whole swarm of these ridiculous assassins."

"No need," answered the philosopher; "they are working hard enough to destroy themselves. I assure you, at the end of 10 years, not a hundredth part of those wretches will be left; even if they had never drawn the sword, famine, fatigue, or intemperance will sweep them almost all away. Besides, it is not they who deserve punishment, but rather those armchair barbarians, who from the privacy of their cabinets, and during the process of digestion, command the massacre of a million men, and afterward ordain a solemn thanksgiving to God."

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

I oftened wondered if the Universe was made as some giant practical joke, with God the Ultimate Practical Joker.  It would explain so much.

"God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

And read his great science fiction story, Micromegas, here:

"... the point but suppressed to avoid long quotes...."

Good,

I oftened wondered if the Universe was made as some giant practical joke, with God the Ultimate Practical Joker.  It would explain so much.

Yes, God is a joke, it is serious.