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Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ Exploration Strategy _ ESA Press Efforts

Posted by: tedstryk Nov 29 2005, 10:51 PM

QUOTE (paulanderson @ Nov 29 2005, 10:46 PM)
Just a reminder that the press briefing is tomorrow (November 30, 2005) at 10:00 am ET / 7:00 am PT and will be shown live on NASA TV:

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2005/nov/HQ_M05183_Joint_News_Briefing.html
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Some major discoveries will be announced, including:

Titan has an atmosphere
The Hellas and Argyre basins on Mars are of impact origin.
Mars has large volcanos in the Tharsis region.
Mars has two moons.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Nov 29 2005, 11:06 PM

QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 29 2005, 10:51 PM)
Some major discoveries will be announced, including:

Titan has an atmosphere
The Hellas and Argyre basins on Mars are of impact origin.
Mars has large volcanos in the Tharsis region.
Mars has two moons.
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Mars has mass.

Posted by: helvick Nov 29 2005, 11:17 PM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Nov 30 2005, 12:06 AM)
Mars has mass.
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and despite previous evidence to the contrary ESA actually has an orbiter around Mars.

Posted by: tedstryk Nov 29 2005, 11:28 PM

They have also found that Mars is in solar orbit.

Posted by: tfisher Nov 30 2005, 12:19 AM

QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 29 2005, 07:28 PM)
They have also found that Mars is in solar orbit.
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Why such negative humor towards them? Admittedly, Helvick's reply is funny, given the paucity of data they release. But to imply the ESA doesn't accomplish real science at Mars seems unfair and overboard.

Posted by: JonClarke Nov 30 2005, 12:30 AM

QUOTE (tfisher @ Nov 30 2005, 12:19 AM)
Why such negative humor towards them?  Admittedly, Helvick's reply is funny, given the paucity of data they release.  But to imply the ESA doesn't accomplish real science at Mars seems unfair and overboard.
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Quite unsuitable comments, IMHO. Mars Express has been a fantastic mission and made lots of major discoveries which have led to an impressive portfolio of publications, with many more to come.

Jon mad.gif

Posted by: Decepticon Nov 30 2005, 02:04 AM

You Guys are fricken Hilarious!

Posted by: paulanderson Nov 30 2005, 02:41 AM

QUOTE (JonClarke @ Nov 29 2005, 04:30 PM)
Quite unsuitable comments, IMHO.  Mars Express has been a fantastic mission and made lots of major discoveries which have led to an impressive portfolio of publications, with many more to come.

Jon mad.gif
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I agree. I have as good a sense of humour as anyone, but Mars Express has contributed a lot of good scientific data (uniquely and only from ME in some cases), including the methane confirmation, the fields of volcanic cones in the northern hemisphere which may be relatively young geologically, the "glacier" crater, more evidence for past water flows and MARSIS, to name a few offhand. I'm sure Jon could add to this. Some of their findings relate to "traces of water" as noted in the ESA's press release; in whatever form that takes it is interesting and important. They might be slower in releasing information, but it is usually worth the wait I think. Ok, time for my evening coffee now...

Posted by: jamescanvin Nov 30 2005, 02:52 AM

QUOTE (JonClarke @ Nov 30 2005, 11:30 AM)
Quite unsuitable comments, IMHO.  Mars Express has been a fantastic mission and made lots of major discoveries which have led to an impressive portfolio of publications, with many more to come.

Jon mad.gif
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The joke is about ESA's habit of making confirmations of already pretty well established things sound like major discoveries in thier press releases! Not wanting to speak for the jokers, but I'm sure they all agree with your above statement. Mars Express has been a wonderful mission but there PR office is a joke.

Well I thourght it was funny laugh.gif laugh.gif

James

Posted by: tedstryk Nov 30 2005, 03:49 AM

QUOTE (tfisher @ Nov 30 2005, 12:19 AM)
Why such negative humor towards them?  Admittedly, Helvick's reply is funny, given the paucity of data they release.  But to imply the ESA doesn't accomplish real science at Mars seems unfair and overboard.
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They accomplish great science. But their press releases, such as the one claiming the discovery of ice at the martian poles, are a hoot, and, on a sad side, a real distraction from the great science Mars Express is doing.

Posted by: The Messenger Nov 30 2005, 04:51 AM

QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 29 2005, 08:49 PM)
They accomplish great science.  But their press releases, such as the one claiming the discovery of ice at the martian poles, are a hoot, and, on a sad side, a real distraction from the great science Mars Express is doing.
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There is ice on the Martian Poles???

Nobody ever tells me anything.

Seriously, the ESA is a day or two late on everything - Including providing the most trivial evidence from Huygens - radar profiles, things like that.

Still - They have been billing this as a major announcement for weeks now - So I am going out on a limb and making a prediction:

They have analysed the degeneracies in the Martian gravity mapping from different altitudes, bumped it up against the odd-ball observations from Titan, and concluded Newtonian physics are only good to the first order...

Posted by: edstrick Nov 30 2005, 05:48 AM

"Why such negative humor towards them? "

Because they announce rediscoveries or discovery-extensions without proper credit toward people who've been working and publishing on that subject for years. A case in point was last springs widely trumpetd announcement of the discovery of few million year old ice-rafted flood deposits at the equator originating from Cerberus Fossae.

While they had new and better data, and an interesting new interpretation that extends suggestions made earlier, for example in an abstract at the 2002 (I think) Lunar and Planetary Science Conference... they didn't credit ANY of the previous work in their announcements and subsequente massive press coverage.

I won't say it's dishonest or unethical, but I will put a word to it: "Sleazy".

Posted by: JonClarke Dec 1 2005, 07:56 AM

Given the significance of these results from both MARSIS and OMEGA, the "jokes" comments about the press copnference posted earlier are revealed for what they are - silly and inane.

Jon

Posted by: deglr6328 Dec 1 2005, 08:01 AM

oh jeez, lighten up people. tongue.gif rolleyes.gif

Posted by: dvandorn Dec 1 2005, 01:23 PM

QUOTE (JonClarke @ Dec 1 2005, 01:56 AM)
Given the significance of these results from both MARSIS and OMEGA, the "jokes" comments about the press copnference posted earlier are revealed for what they are - silly and inane.

Jon
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I disagree. The manner in which ESA decided to release this information showed a lack of respect for the average world citizen who has an interest in the information.

This forum wouldn't serve your purposes very well, Jon, if it was nearly impossible to read. The ESA press conference was nearly impossible to hear or see for American viewers -- and the fault for that rests squarely with ESA.

ESA's attitude *seems* to be, "If you're not a properly accredited scientist, you have no interest in or use for this information, so we're not going to spend any effort making the information available to you."

And I disagree *strongly* with that attitude.

The results are wonderful -- the means by which ESA chose to present those results to the American viewers was lame. The content of the results does not change that.

-the other Doug

Posted by: algorimancer Dec 1 2005, 02:12 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Dec 1 2005, 08:23 AM)
ESA's attitude *seems* to be, "If you're not a properly accredited scientist, you have no interest in or use for this information, so we're not going to spend any effort making the information available to you."
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This seems to be a common British/European attitude. Look for a Sci/Tech section in the online newspapers, for instance, and you're likely to be disappointed. My experience in England was also that, if you're away from an established university town, it is awfully hard to find a bookstore; of course that was 20 years ago...

Posted by: ljk4-1 Dec 1 2005, 02:39 PM

QUOTE (algorimancer @ Dec 1 2005, 09:12 AM)
This seems to be a common British/European attitude.  Look for a Sci/Tech section in the online newspapers, for instance, and you're likely to be disappointed.  My experience in England was also that, if you're away from an established university town, it is awfully hard to find a bookstore; of course that was 20 years ago...
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Trust me, it isn't just in England that you can't find a decent bookstore outside of a college town or a major city. And this is in late 2005.

Posted by: akuo Dec 1 2005, 02:40 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Dec 1 2005, 01:23 PM)
The results are wonderful -- the means by which ESA chose to present those results to the American viewers was lame.  The content of the results does not change that.

-the other Doug
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It was a press conference intended for the media present at the site. It was NASA's decision to carry that on NASA-TV. I don't believe it was streamed by ESA or available live in Europe, the only way I saw it (being in Europe) was from NASA-TV.

And I don't think it was much worse than the average NASA press conference either.

Posted by: RNeuhaus Dec 1 2005, 04:56 PM

QUOTE (Rakhir @ Dec 1 2005, 10:20 AM)
I think nobody can deny that European Public Relations are usually not very elaborated. At least if you take the US PR as a standard.

Japanese PR are similar to European PR.
And I will not detail Russian or Chinese PR.

Therefore, US PR can not be considered as a worldwide norm.

Once you know this, what is the benefit to remind it and whimper every 10 posts ?

Rakhir
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I think that the PR of Japan is rather different than European. According to the Hayabusa's experience, the Japanese newspaper is very strong (one of the highest newspaper publication per-capite of the world) and is very agressive. The japanese newsman were able to get as much information from Hayabusa mission as soon and publish them to the public. We learned the fresh news from the Matsuura, 5thStar, etc sooner than JAXA/ISAS goverment agency.

The European case, the newspaper does not seems so agressive or interested to obtain the latest news from space missions since it seems that the average European citizen is not so much interested to be get know of the space updates. On the other hand, I think, the american counterpart average citizen is somewhat more interested on space news since the goverment has already made lots of effort in its 40 years of advertaisment on space program mainly due to the during the war race to Moon.

Rodolfo

Posted by: AstronomíaOnline.com Dec 1 2005, 05:50 PM

I hope nobody minds if I add my two cents to this discussion.

Some of you say the technical problems in ESA broadcasting of the news conference were highly disrespectful for people in the USA. And I would like to say that you don't know how lucky you are by actually having access to that information in real time.

I hate to say this, I don't want to hurt nobody's sensibility, but USA is not the only country in the world. And in lots of other countries, access to this kind of information is a lot, an awful lot harder. Here in South America, for example, broadband Internet access is not common yet. Most of the people can't even afford to have dialup on their homes.

So, instead of complaining about this, I would prefer to be thankful for enjoying so much information about both Mars Express and Huygens, even if you can get it a little later. At least you are able to get it!

Ricardo

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Dec 1 2005, 06:16 PM

QUOTE (AstronomíaOnline.com @ Dec 1 2005, 05:50 PM)
So, instead of complaining about this, I would prefer to be thankful for enjoying so much information about both Mars Express and Huygens, even if you can get it a little later. At least you are able to get it!

Forgive me for saying so but that is quite an arrogant statement. If NASA PAO tried the same excuse they would be excoriated (How dare those arrogant Yanks treat us that way!) around the world by people of all nationalities, the vast majority of whom have no direct stake (i.e., tax payers who fund NASA programs). Missions like MER, Cassini, MGS (MOC), etc. make tons of data available to the rest of the world for "free" on the Web, in most cases before the scientists themselves, who collect the data and are responsible for its analysis, get it, and even when the missions are not under any obligation to do so. ESA doesn't even come close to this. If ESA wants to play in the big leagues, then they and their supporters need to grow some thicker skins and learn to deal with criticism.

Posted by: JonClarke Dec 1 2005, 09:29 PM

QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Dec 1 2005, 06:16 PM)
ESA doesn't even come close to this.  If ESA wants to play in the big leagues, then they and their supporters need to grow some thicker skins and learn to deal with criticism.
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Valid critcism yes, not the school yard stuff that has been going on.

Jon

Posted by: tedstryk Dec 2 2005, 02:58 AM

QUOTE (JonClarke @ Dec 1 2005, 09:29 PM)
Valid critcism yes, not the school yard stuff that has been going on.

Jon
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I notice you are new to the group. A lot of the criticism has been due to the fact that ESA's press office has often promoted "discoveries" of long-known information, while ignoring the real discoveries Mars Express is making, which is a spectacular scientific probe. My comments were due to long frustration with this. This latest round is of much better quality.

Posted by: dvandorn Dec 2 2005, 05:25 AM

You're exactly right, Ted. Add to that the fact that, as I recall, ME had been in Mars orbit and taking images for *months* and ESA had released all of five images, or somesuch ridiculously small number.

I don't know how European culture reacts to such things, but when someone in America crows over how wonderfully successful his/her project is, but seems very reticent to show their results to the general public, people regard him/her with mistrust. If this is not true in Europe, I imagine this would explain much about how the ESA press department operates.

But... can you *imagine* how much fuel the Moon Hoaxers would have had for their cause had NASA decided to delete the TV cameras from Apollo (something they came very close to doing), not share the live air-to-ground communications of the landing and other mission milestones, and release only five or six pictures from the flight in the first six months after Apollo 11 returned to Earth? And, on top of that, only allowed "qualified scientists" to see results of the analyses of the moon rocks returned?

All I'm saying is that if you treat the results of space exploration as material that can *only* be discussed "properly" in approved scientific journals, if you believe that the *only* worthwhile means of making public the results of such explorations are through abstracts and articles in scientific journals with circulations in the low thousands, then you'll *never* reach the people you really need to reach -- those common folk who are dying inside for want of something that excites their sense of wonder.

I guess it all comes down to one basic question -- are we exploring the Solar System for the professional satisfaction of a few thousand scientists, or for the deep-soul satisfaction of the human race?

I know what *my* answer is.

-the other Doug

Posted by: Bob Shaw Dec 2 2005, 09:06 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Dec 2 2005, 06:25 AM)
You're exactly right, Ted.  Add to that the fact that, as I recall, ME had been in Mars orbit and taking images for *months* and ESA had released all of five images, or somesuch ridiculously small number.

I don't know how European culture reacts to such things, but when someone in America crows over how wonderfully successful his/her project is, but seems very reticent to show their results to the general public, people regard him/her with mistrust.  If this is not true in Europe, I imagine this would explain much about how the ESA press department operates.

But... can you *imagine* how much fuel the Moon Hoaxers would have had for their cause had NASA decided to delete the TV cameras from Apollo (something they came very close to doing), not share the live air-to-ground communications of the landing and other mission milestones, and release only five or six pictures from the flight in the first six months after Apollo 11 returned to Earth?  And, on top of that, only allowed "qualified scientists" to see results of the analyses of the moon rocks returned?

All I'm saying is that if you treat the results of space exploration as material that can *only* be discussed "properly" in approved scientific journals, if you believe that the *only* worthwhile means of making public the results of such explorations are through abstracts and articles in scientific journals with circulations in the low thousands, then you'll *never* reach the people you really need to reach -- those common folk who are dying inside for want of something that excites their sense of wonder.

I guess it all comes down to one basic question -- are we exploring the Solar System for the professional satisfaction of a few thousand scientists, or for the deep-soul satisfaction of the human race?

I know what *my* answer is.

-the other Doug
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other Doug:

There's a way to see the real cost of ESA's PR/outreach failings, and it requires no grand appeal to the manifest destiny of humanity, or whatever. It's simply this: compare the strict scientific results from a NASA/ESA project which has excellent outreach, and and from an ESA/NASA project which suffers from bad outreach. The two projects? Why, SOHO - with an alliance of round-the clock, international, web-based observers, many of whom are amateur and, of course, dear ol' Mars Express, with (none of the above).

OK, I'm grandstanding, but it says something to me that one Mission Director lives at GSFC, and the other at Darmstadt!

As an EU taxpayer, I'm not a happy bunny. I'm glad the USA has got it right (and, to their credit, JAXA!).

Bob Shaw

Posted by: ljk4-1 Dec 2 2005, 09:23 PM

Rather than griping in a cybernetic vacuum, has anyone addressed these issues directly to someone in charge at the ESA? Despite how it may seem, I am sure they want feedback.

Posted by: silylene Dec 3 2005, 09:30 PM

QUOTE (tedstryk @ Dec 2 2005, 02:58 AM)
I notice you <JonClarke> are new to the group.  A lot of the criticism has been due to the fact that ESA's press office has often promoted "discoveries" of long-known information, while ignoring the real discoveries Mars Express is making, which is a spectacular scientific probe.  My comments were due to long frustration with this. .....


Just what does being "new to the group" have to do with the content of Jon's message? Being "new to the group" doesn't mean squat.

BTW, here is Jon's bio, for your information: http://aca.mq.edu.au/People/jclarke.htm

Posted by: djellison Dec 3 2005, 09:47 PM

Actually, being 'new' to this place w.r.t. our lambasting of ESA is a valid point. It's something of an in-joke between the regulars here ( myself included ) that ESA's press efforts are, from time to time, about as accurate as Ford saying they just discovered the wheel. If you arrived here and just read this thread out of the 18 months + of context that our opinion of ESA press releases had - you could get it very wrong. This place has a very active and healthy sense of humour.

Doug

Posted by: silylene Dec 3 2005, 10:10 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 3 2005, 09:47 PM)
Actually, being 'new' to this place w.r.t. our lambasting of ESA is a valid point. It's something of an in-joke between the regulars here ( myself included ) that ESA's press efforts are, from time to time, about as accurate as Ford saying they just discovered the wheel.  If you arrived here and just read this thread out of the 18 months + of context that our opinion of ESA press releases had - you could get it very wrong.  This place has a very active and healthy sense of humour.

Doug
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Several us us recently joined this forum from space.com forums. We have lambasted ESA in our fora too, with a similar sense of humor. For example, my running joke is that Andy Warhol colorizes their photos they release to the public (I think they used to do a bad job of distinguishing between false color and realisitc colors in the photos they have released to the media).

The ESA is...ESA. 'Nuff said!

Posted by: tedstryk Dec 4 2005, 02:16 AM

Indeed, my comments about being new to the group were not an attack on anyone - rather, I was bringing up the point that this was a continuation of a previous discussion.

Posted by: JonClarke Dec 5 2005, 02:06 AM

QUOTE (tedstryk @ Dec 2 2005, 02:58 AM)
I notice you are new to the group.  A lot of the criticism has been due to the fact that ESA's press office has often promoted "discoveries" of long-known information, while ignoring the real discoveries Mars Express is making, which is a spectacular scientific probe.  My comments were due to long frustration with this. This latest round is of much better quality.
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I may be new, but I have been reading here for quite some time and active on other sites. I am well aware of this attitude I am critcising here and it is very widespread.

You say this is all in good humour, but I suggest that at times under this humour is a not too well concealed hostility to ESA. I am not pointing the finger here at anyone in particular, but commenting on a general attitude. A joke may well be a joke, but it can also serve as a cover for less savory things.

People are taking these press release statements far too seriously. They are designed for the general media, most of which probably has forgotten that ME still exists. Those of us who have an attention span and an interest that extends between press releases may be frustrated by this, but they aren't designed for us

NASA press releases are often highly misleading also. How many times are we told that evidence has been found for water on Mars? That a new comet or asteroid mission will unlock the orign of the solar system? That a new telescope will reveal the how the universe formed? How every shuttle mission advances exploration of space? If we are going to mock press releases, let's be consistent and mock all of them.

Jon

Posted by: JonClarke Dec 5 2005, 02:09 AM

QUOTE (silylene @ Dec 3 2005, 10:10 PM)
Several us us recently joined this forum from space.com forums.  We have lambasted ESA in our fora too, with a similar sense of humor.  For example, my running joke is that Andy Warhol colorizes their photos they release to the public (I think they used to do a bad job of distinguishing between false color and realisitc colors in the photos they have released to the media).

The ESA is...ESA.  'Nuff said!
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I actually don't remember seeing too much ESA bashing there. If I had, I would have roasted it.

Jon

Posted by: tedstryk Dec 5 2005, 03:59 AM

QUOTE (JonClarke @ Dec 5 2005, 02:06 AM)
I may be new, but I have been reading here for quite some time and active on other sites.  I am well aware of this attitude I am critcising here and it is very widespread.

You say this is all in good humour, but I suggest that at times under this humour is a not too well concealed hostility to ESA.  I am not pointing the finger here at anyone in particular, but commenting on a general attitude.  A joke may well be a joke, but it can also serve as a cover for less savory things.

People are taking these press release statements far too seriously.  They are designed for the general media, most of which probably has forgotten that ME still exists.  Those of us who have an attention span and an interest that extends between press releases may be frustrated by this, but they aren't designed for us

NASA press releases are often highly misleading also.  How many times are we told that evidence has been found for water on Mars?  That a new comet or asteroid mission will unlock the orign of the solar system?  That a new telescope will reveal the how the universe formed?  How every shuttle mission advances exploration of space?  If we are going to mock press releases, let's be consistent and mock all of them.

Jon
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Well, I can only speak for myself, but, if you look at my track record of postings considering ESA, I definitely don't harbor any hostility towards it, save perhaps their press office. I agree that NASA, and any other agency, have their shortcomings in this area, but ESA's have been particularly bad, as, if you have been reading this forum long, has been much to the consternation of just about everyone here. I think it press release hype and distortions (of which NASA is guilty too) coupled with unusually slow release of real results.

Posted by: JonClarke Dec 6 2005, 12:01 AM

QUOTE (tedstryk @ Dec 5 2005, 03:59 AM)
Well, I can only speak for myself, but, if you look at my track record of postings considering ESA, I definitely don't harbor any hostility towards it, save perhaps their press office.  I agree that NASA, and any other agency, have their shortcomings in this area, but ESA's have been particularly bad, as, if you have been reading this forum long, has been much to the consternation of just about everyone here.  I think it press release hype and distortions (of which NASA is guilty too)  coupled with unusually slow release of real results.
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They are press officers for goodness sake! What do you expect? The fact this that in this thread (71 posts so far), supposedly about these very significant results, less than half have actually discussed the findings. Almost a third have been snide and silly comments about ESA's press releases.

I find it interesting that you have yet to comment on the findings, and are focusing mainly on attacking the press office. Yet it is the findings that matter, the rest is ephemeral. This does show hostility, IHMO.

So does complaining about the "slow" release of data. This is not the fault of the press office, it is policy. the citicism is unjustified. Since when does raw data releases every 6 months count as slow? Since when does more than 20 major publications and over 100 conference abstracts in two years count as slow?

I suggest we consider the subject closed and focus on science, not trivia. And next time, we should all show some more respect to the hard work that has gone into these and all other missions.

Jon

Posted by: RNeuhaus Dec 6 2005, 02:22 AM

QUOTE (JonClarke @ Dec 5 2005, 07:01 PM)
So does complaining about the "slow" release of data.  This is not the fault of the press office, it is policy.  the citicism is unjustified.  Since when does raw data releases every 6 months count as slow?  Since when does more than 20 major publications and over 100 conference abstracts in two years count as slow? 
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Raw data is released every 6 months. It is relatively very slow. Improve the policy for that. It is one of the most complained of points of ESA's PR. What are the reasons for releasing these data after a so long time?
The rest sounds fine but I am not aware of these new major publications and conference abstracts. Maybe it is of my blame since I didn't search well for these new novelties.

Rodolfo

Posted by: The Messenger Dec 6 2005, 02:55 AM

QUOTE (JonClarke @ Dec 5 2005, 05:01 PM)
I suggest we consider the subject closed and focus on science, not trivia.  And next time, we should all show some more respect to the hard work that has gone into these and all other missions.

Jon
*

It is hard to focus on science, when so little that is science or hard engineering, has been released. I'm working on health management packages for future flights, and I would like to know how the instruments preformed: What types of sensors performed as expected, and which ones are suspect?

The batteries clearly out-lived expectations, is this because they outperformed prototypes, or was the probe warmer-than-expected during the descent? Is there lag time in the sensors relative to the clock times? Why are the radar charts so muddled?

When is the report on the channel A screw-up going to be released? Do you have any recommendations we can build into our systems that will prevent these types of events in the future?

Time is money, this was a joint venture: Those of us who built the systems that got Huygens there would like to know what-and-how we can improve on the systems we are designing and proposing today. For months it was evident Huygens teams were not even sharing data with each other. Seesh!

Posted by: edstrick Dec 6 2005, 09:34 AM

I think the partly validly, partly invalidly described "ESA Bashing" can mostly be resolved into two things: General Press Office bashing and general bashing of a perceived combination of amateurishness, bureaucratization, and euro-scientific-establishment-elitism.

Press office bashing is nothing new. For two or more decades, I've grumbled that a fair fraction of the people in press offices simply wouldn't be able to hack it outside of (what are perceived to be) protected civil service positions. I have recurring (mostly silent) screaming fits at the terminal incompetence of whoever is in charge of the NASA TV schedule postings. Sometimes events that have been known to be scheduled have had their actual broadcast scheduled the morning of the day of the event. I've suspected sometimes the schedule was posted after it happened. As of yesterday, they have coverage of a February spacewalk posted, but not the prelaunch events for the New Horizons mission launch. Somewhere, somebody MUST know what programs are queued for the overnight Gallery showings on NASA TV, but do they deign to give us that information? Nah...

The other bashing of amateurishness etc, is more specifically pointed at ESA and it's sometimes bumbling and lame public presentation. There was abundant conversation here about the amateurish handling of the Huygens coverage. The same applies to the recent briefing. Even if it had been broadcast in HiDef instead of horribly low-bandwidth webcam video, it was amateurish, even though the science was spectacular.

Bureaucratization: Has anybody here tried to listen to the pompous organizationally-self-congratulating speaches by the program officials at the beginning of these briefings and events? Has anybody here been able to read any of the ESA planning documents that regularly show up on SpaceRef? The levels of high-minded generalities and windy blather are beyond stupefying. When you've finished reading one of those documents, you know what they were talking about, but they've said nothing that contains any information!

Complaints of intellectual elitism are widespread and there are constant reports in Science magazine of calls for reform in the German, French, Italian and other scientific establishments. I cannot vouch for it in person, but you somtimes get a feel for what's there, especially in the way they deal with the public. The ESA bragged and bragged about the revolutionary science to come from the miniaturized new tech instrumets orbiting the Moon on Smart-1, but I think we are decidedly underimpressed with what seems to be coming out of this mission, other than the entirely successful engineering development and testing.

It's not that we're anti-ESA and anti-European.... It's more that we're frustrated at what we see are obvious continuing problems that they seemingly can't recognize in themselves and can't fix. Certainly, in the US, we've got our on different but equivalent problems, and difficulties in seeing then and fixing them, but we bash ourselves plenty, too.

Posted by: tedstryk Dec 6 2005, 10:37 AM

QUOTE (JonClarke @ Dec 6 2005, 12:01 AM)
They are press officers for goodness sake!  What do you expect?  The fact this that in this thread (71 posts so far), supposedly about these very significant results, less than half have actually discussed the findings.  Almost a third have been snide and silly comments about ESA's press releases. 

I find it interesting that you have yet to comment on the findings, and are focusing mainly on attacking the press office.  Yet it is the findings that matter, the rest is ephemeral.  This does show hostility, IHMO.

So does complaining about the "slow" release of data.  This is not the fault of the press office, it is policy.  the citicism is unjustified.  Since when does raw data releases every 6 months count as slow?  Since when does more than 20 major publications and over 100 conference abstracts in two years count as slow? 

I suggest we consider the subject closed and focus on science, not trivia.  And next time, we should all show some more respect to the hard work that has gone into these and all other missions.

Jon
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So, in other words, any joke or criticism is hostility. It isn't, but you are not going to be convinced otherwise. We are showing plenty of respect.

Posted by: chris Dec 6 2005, 10:48 AM

The is getting way too personal and acrimonious. As a community, we are better than this. Please all take a deep breath and calm down.

Chris

Posted by: djellison Dec 6 2005, 11:01 AM

ESA does amazing things. We know that. MEX is great, Huygens was great, Rosetta will be great etc etc etc

BUT

Their press and outreach efforts are a disgrace and data release is not much better. Fact. The Hugyens coverage was terrible, MEX press releases are often missleading, intentionally - remember MEX 'discovering' water at the pole. It was pathetic, missleading, and BANG out of order to over sell the discoveries MEX has made. What's happening to Smart-1 at the moment. Dunno - they dont bother telling us any more - it's been in orbit around the moon for months and months - and what press info have we had? Half a dozen pictures. That's it. It will have taken thousands, if not tens of thousands by now.

Yes - MEX data gets released at the same schedule as MGS data - but have you SEEN it? HRSC data is in one, processed format that's basically unworkable. Where's the MEX version of the workbook, where's the software to use the data, where's the pdf's covering the calibration and processing? Where's the Smart 1 data?

Occasionally - ESA pulls a blinder, such as the Photoshop plugins for FIT's imagery - some of the work people have done using that with that, and DSS2 / HST data etc is just utterly utterly astonishing ( eg http://www.spacetelescope.org/projects/fits_liberator/fitsimages/html/davidedemartin_12.html ) - but they COULD do the same for MEX, for Smart 1 - let us at it, show us the goods in a way that is useable....but they dont.

Let me repeat - the efforts of the scientists and engineers who are doing these missions is superb. I don't lay much of this criticism at their door. The disgrace is the outreach and press efforts of ESA which are often embarrasing. I CRINGE when I see a new Mars Express press release, worrying what they'll claim MEX has 'discovered' this time. It's a culture within ESA that the 'public' are an at-arms-reach body that wouldnt understand what they're doing anyway. It started with the chronic Giotto imagery and it's been the same ever since.

Basically, consider MER. The workbook, the raw JPG's, Steve's blog, the Pancam website, the Director Updates, the route maps, Podcasts, weekly updates, the genuine discoveries being trumpeted, and the context of previous missions into which they fall being credited.

Now consider Smart 1 or MEX. The difference is night and day, black and white, it is the difference between the right way of doing things, and the wrong way.

Criticism of ESA on this point is valid, warrented, justified and appropriate and the discussion is NOT closed until the situation improves.

Doug

(PS - yes - I agree, too much of this particular discussion - I'm going to move it to an appropriate thread elsewhere - we have one on this exact topic)

Posted by: djellison Dec 6 2005, 11:38 AM

home for some moved posts from the MEX/Huygens thread

Posted by: The Messenger Dec 8 2005, 04:50 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 6 2005, 04:38 AM)
home for some moved posts from the MEX/Huygens thread
*

Good move, but it kinda killed the topic - nice summation.

I have a minor complaint with the Nature articles: The data in many of the charts is smoothed, and sometimes lacks essential axis information. For example, the pressure table is cleansed of dynamics, and lacks a time axis. I was hoping they would provide a better, less ambiguous, representation of the radar altimeter data. Some error bars would be nice - I guess I won't be completely happy until the complete release of the all the raw data.

On the whole though, it is fun, informative, tantalizing reading and demonstrates we need to go back and do it again...soon.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 4 2006, 03:08 PM

Overview of ESA communication activities in 2006 relevant to the media

Press conferences, exhibitions, launches, and much more. Here is the list of the
main communication activities ESA will be involved in this year. Pencil them in
into your diaries.

More at:

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM28P8A9HE_index_0.html

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 17 2006, 03:30 PM

ESA's Director General meets the press

ESA Director General Jean-Jacques Dordain met the Press at ESA Headquarters this
morning to take stock of ESA's 2005 activities and announce the main events for
the upcoming year.

Full story:

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM12CMZCIE_index_0.html

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 23 2006, 04:55 PM

NASA and ESA: a parting of ways?
---

NASA and ESA have shared a long, if sometimes rocky, history of
cooperation in space ventures. Taylor Dinerman reports that this
cooperation may be endangered as the two space agencies are pulled in
different directions by their respective governments.

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/539/1

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 24 2006, 04:54 PM

Tuesday, 24-Jan-2006 - Latest from ESA Science and Technology web site

COSMIC VISION

Cosmic Vision 2015-2025 is the roadmap by which the ESA Science
Directorate is planing its future missions. In the first of four articles one of
the key themes is presented.

+ COSMIC VISION 2015- 2025: PLANETS AND LIFE

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38646


=====================================================
SOLAR SYSTEM MISSIONS

Updated mission status reports are available for the Venus Express and
SMART-1 missions.

+ START OF SECOND PAYLOAD POINTING CAMPAIGN

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38648

+ ONGOING LUNAR OPERATIONS

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38649

Posted by: PhilCo126 Jan 24 2006, 08:06 PM

Thanks for those links ljk4-1 smile.gif

O.K. for some ESA activities but members of the Press ( even Free-lancers ) are always invited to ESA events !
Moreover let's not forget that ESA published the FREE magazine ' ESA Bulletin ' which is excellent ! ( Large high quality magazine on 96 glossy pages )
Also ESO ( ESA Southern Observatory ) publishes a FREE magazine ' The Messenger ' with 70 pages on average ...
So ESA isn't doing bad after all ! rolleyes.gif

Posted by: jamescanvin Jan 24 2006, 10:36 PM

QUOTE (PhilCo126 @ Jan 25 2006, 07:06 AM)
Thanks for those links ljk4-1  smile.gif

O.K. for some ESA activities but members of the Press ( even Free-lancers ) are always invited to ESA events !
Moreover let's not forget that ESA published the FREE magazine ' ESA Bulletin ' which is excellent ! ( Large high quality magazine on 96 glossy pages )
Also ESO ( ESA Southern Observatory ) publishes a FREE magazine ' The Messenger ' with 70 pages on average ...
So ESA isn't doing bad after all ! rolleyes.gif
*


Just too clarify, ESO stands for European Southern Observatory and is not related to ESA in any way, so that doesn't count.

The ESA Bulletin is very good though, worth pointing out.

James

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 31 2006, 06:21 PM

LATEST NEWS

COSMIC VISION 2015-2025 PART 2 - THE SOLAR SYSTEM

The search for the origins of life set out in the first of the four
themes for Cosmic Vision 2015-2025 must begin in our own Solar System.
Understanding how the Sun behaves over a range of timescales, how the
planets can be shielded from its radiative and plasma output, why the
nine Solar System planets are so different from one another, and what
the small bodies such as comets and asteroids can tell us about our
origins - these are only a few aspects of the question.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38656

MARS EXPRESS IMAGE OF CLARITAS FOSSAE REGION

A further high resolution image of the Claritas Fossae region on Mars.
Claritas Fossae is located on the Tharsis rise, south of the three
large volcanoes known as the Tharsis Montes, and extends roughly north
to south for approximately 1800 kilometres.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38700

=====================================================
MISSION STATUS REPORTS

VENUS EXPRESS - Report for Period 20 January - 26 January 2006

During the reporting period the last part of the payloads pointing
scenario has been completed
and the in-flight thermal characterisation has started. During this
characterisation all cold faces
of the spacecraft are exposed to a certain time to the Sun in order to
fully validate the thermal
model. This first part has seen the exposure of the spacecraft side
walls (+/-Y faces) and will be
followed in the next reporting period by the cryo face (-X) and by the
Main Engine face (-Z).

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38680


ROSETTA - Report for Period 6 January - 27 January 2006

The reporting period covers three weeks of passive cruise, with
monitoring and minor maintenance activities.

On the subsystems side, the TC link timeout was returned to its normal
value of 9 days on 12 January. The TM mode was temporarily changed to
'bi-weekly' between 12 and 19 January, to cope with possible reduction
of coverage when new Norcia was supporting Mars Express contingency
operations.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38679

====================================================
FEATURE ON ISO

ONLINE DVD -Â ISO 10 YEAR CELEBRATION

2005 represented 10 years since the launch of the ISO - the Infrared
Space Observatory. A special DVD was compiled presenting a review of
the mission and launch activities.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38622

PUBLICATION - ISO SCIENCE LEGACY

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38683

=====================================================
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Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jan 31 2006, 06:45 PM

QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 31 2006, 06:21 PM)
LATEST NEWS

Thanks for the posts, ljk4-1. I don't know where you find the time to firehose these posts across the web, but more power to you. In fact, you're such a prolific poster here that we should lobby Doug to give you your own category or sub-forum tongue.gif

Posted by: The Messenger Jan 31 2006, 06:51 PM

QUOTE (PhilCo126 @ Jan 24 2006, 01:06 PM)
Thanks for those links ljk4-1  smile.gif

O.K. for some ESA activities but members of the Press ( even Free-lancers ) are always invited to ESA events !
Moreover let's not forget that ESA published the FREE magazine ' ESA Bulletin ' which is excellent ! ( Large high quality magazine on 96 glossy pages )
Also ESO ( ESA Southern Observatory ) publishes a FREE magazine ' The Messenger ' with 70 pages on average ...
So ESA isn't doing bad after all ! rolleyes.gif
*

Just to clarify, there is no connection between "The Messinger' the free magazine and "The Messenger" the Space Probe, and "The Messinger" the resident board anarchist smile.gif

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 31 2006, 07:11 PM

QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jan 31 2006, 01:45 PM)
Thanks for the posts, ljk4-1.  I don't know where you find the time to firehose these posts across the web, but more power to you.  In fact, you're such a prolific poster here that we should lobby Doug to give you your own category or sub-forum  tongue.gif
*


I enjoy working with people. My mission responsibilities range over the entire operation of the forum, so I am constantly occupied. I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all, I think, that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.

http://www.underview.com/2001/haltrans.html#afternoon

cool.gif

Posted by: dvandorn Feb 1 2006, 01:27 AM

Open the pod bay doors, please, ljk...

-the other Doug

Posted by: ljk4-1 Feb 1 2006, 03:15 AM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jan 31 2006, 08:27 PM)
Open the pod bay doors, please, ljk...

-the other Doug
*


I'm sorry, the other Doug, I'm afraid I can't do that.

http://www.underview.com/2001/haltrans.html#goodbye

Posted by: ljk4-1 Feb 2 2006, 06:12 PM

Visit ESA's new Multimedia Gallery at:

http://www.esa.int/esa-mmg/mmghome.pl

Posted by: The Messenger Feb 2 2006, 07:16 PM

QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 2 2006, 11:12 AM)
Visit ESA's new Multimedia Gallery at:

http://www.esa.int/esa-mmg/mmghome.pl
*

Fantastic imaging - this is an excellent webpage!

Another month though, and still no report, 'Lessons Learned' or otherwise from the Huygens' channel 'A' failure.

Posted by: peter59 Feb 2 2006, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (The Messenger @ Feb 2 2006, 07:16 PM)
Fantastic imaging - this is an excellent webpage!
*


Overstatement, no great shakes. Only artist's impressions, Mars pseudo-images generated by computer and some images of Earth. Typical for ESA. Unattractive.

Posted by: PhilCo126 Feb 3 2006, 10:08 PM

Well I did like the EVA practice showing both Dutch & Belgian Astronauts together tongue.gif

Looking forward to the next ESA Bulletin !

Posted by: ljk4-1 Feb 7 2006, 06:43 PM

COSMIC VISION 2015-2025: FUNDAMENTAL LAWS

Theme 3 - What are the fundamental physical laws of the Universe?

The most important challenge facing fundamental physics today is to
understand the foundations of nature more deeply. Physicists know that
the laws of physics as formulated at present do not apply at extremely
high temperatures and energies, so that events in the first fraction of
a second after the Big Bang are not at all understood. Matter as we
know it today did not then exist; protons and electrons formed later.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38657

=====================================================
FUTURE MISSION - UPDATES

PLANCK
The Planck Flight Model is currently being prepared for transport from
the prime contractor Alcatel Alenia Space (located in Cannes, France)
to the cryogenic test facility at Centre Spaciale de Liege (Belgium)
where the spacecraft will undergo thermal balance testing.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38729


HERSCHEL
The completed Herschel Structural and Thermal Qualification model
satellite has been mounted onto the HYDRA platform in preparation for
mechanical vibration and shock tests to complete the environmental
qualification campaign. This test is to ensure the satellite can cope
with the vibrations experienced during launch by the Ariane V launcher.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38735

=====================================================
STATUS REPORTS

VENUS EXPRESS
Report for Period 27 January - 02 February 2006

During the reporting period the Thermal Characterization Scenario with
Sun illumination of the cryo face (-X) and the Main Engine face (Z)
has been completed. The MAG instrument has
been switched ON, the Star Tracker Stray Light Test has been performed,
and a TM bit rate test with the Cebreros Ground Station has been
performed.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38728

=====================================================
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+ SCITECH SCREENSAVER

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=====================================================
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Posted by: The Messenger Feb 7 2006, 07:22 PM

QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 7 2006, 11:43 AM)
COSMIC VISION 2015-2025: FUNDAMENTAL LAWS

Theme 3 - What are the fundamental physical laws of the Universe?

The most important challenge facing fundamental physics today is to
understand the foundations of nature more deeply. Physicists know that
the laws of physics as formulated at present do not apply at extremely
high temperatures and energies...

Use the stable and gravity-free environment of space to implement high-precision experiments to search for tiny deviations from the standard model of fundamental interactions
Test the validity of Newtonian gravity using a trans-Saturn dragfree mission
Observe from orbit the patterns of light emitted from the Earth's atmosphere by the showers of particles produced by the impacts of sub-atomic particles of ultra-high-energy

Mission Scenarios

Fundamental physics explorer programme
Deep space gravity probe
Space detector for ultrahigh-energy cosmic rays


Very intriguing and lofty goals. I STILL think there is a tantalizing trail toward these very objectives in the Huygens' data - both what has been made public, and the pieces that are still being mulled over by the PI's. There are too many pieces of the puzzle that do not fit. Cassini also, is just scratching the surface.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Feb 15 2006, 02:12 PM

Wednesday, 15-Feb-2006

COSMIC VISION 2015 - 2025: THE UNIVERSE

Theme 4 - How did the Universe originate and what is it made of?

Since antiquity, the Earth's inhabitants have observed the sky with curiosity
and perspicacity, taking advantage of technological progress to help understand
what the Universe is made of. Our present knowledge is the result of centuries
of continuous cross-fertilisation between astronomical observations and
theoretical constructions.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38658

====================================================
FUTURE MISSION - UPDATES

PLANCK
The Radio Frequency Qualification Model (RFQM) of Planck is being prepared in
the Compact Antenna Test Range of Alcatel Alenia Space in Cannes, France.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38780

HERSCHEL
Video footage of Herschel undergoing mechanical vibration and shock tests at the
ESTEC test facilities in Noordwijk, the Netherlands.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38802

====================================================
STATUS REPORTS

VENUS EXPRESS
Period 3 to 9 February 2006

Operations during the reporting period have been moved again over the
New Norcia station and spacecraft activities has focused on further TTC tests,
characterisation of STRs acquisition performance, and Radio Science activities.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38746

====================================================
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====================================================

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Posted by: ljk4-1 Mar 30 2006, 03:43 PM

Thursday, 30-Mar-2006

===================================================
MISSION RESULTS

+ CLUSTER AND DOUBLE STAR REVEAL THE EXTENT OF NEUTRAL SHEET OSCILLATIONS
For the first time, neutral sheet oscillations observed simultaneously at tens
of thousands kilometres distance are reported, thanks to observations by 5
satellites of the Cluster and the Double Star Program missions. Published 8
November 2005 in Annales Geophysicae, this new observational first provides
further constraint to model this large-scale phenomenon in the magnetotail.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38993

+ SMART-1 TRACKING OBSERVATION OF REINER GAMMA
SMART-1 has performed a tracking observation of Reiner Gamma, a bright albedo
feature located in the Oceanus Procellarum on the near side of the Moon. The
feature, originally thought to be a crater, was identified as a flat region with
a very high albedo when spacecraft imaged the region from lunar orbit.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39022

===================================================
MISSION STATUS REPORTS

+ VENUS EXPRESS - Perihelion Passage onto Venus Approach
After passing through perihelion, the Venus Express spacecraft is now heading
away from the Sun and the Venus approach phase is proceeding according to
schedule with the planned arrival at Venus on 11 April.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38992

===================================================
TOTAL SOLAR ECLIPSE 2006

On Wednesday, 29 March, the Moon's shadow swept over the Earth during the 4th
total solar eclipse of this century. Expeditions to two locations on the path of
totality have resulted in images of the solar corona during totality, as seen
from Benin in Africa and Kastellorizo in Greece.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38963

===================================================
VENUS EXPRESS GROUND OBSERVING PROJECT

The Venus Express Ground Observing Project (VEXGOP) is an opportunity to
contribute scientifically useful images and data to compliment the Venus Express
(VEX) spacecraft observations of Venus. The project will focus on utilising the
capabilities of advanced amateurs to obtain images of the atmosphere of Venus;
specifically filtered monochrome images obtained with CCD based cameras in the
350nm to 1000nm (near ultraviolet, visible and near infrared range).
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=38833

===================================================
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Posted by: GravityWaves Mar 31 2006, 03:27 AM

QUOTE (edstrick @ Dec 6 2005, 06:34 AM) *
It's not that we're anti-ESA and anti-European.... It's more that we're frustrated at what we see are obvious continuing problems that they seemingly can't recognize in themselves and can't fix. Certainly, in the US, we've got our on different but equivalent problems, and difficulties in seeing then and fixing them, but we bash ourselves plenty, too.


It's a disaster ! They've got this new Ion-drive spacecraft, its up since 2003 and is now going around the Moon ( that's 3 years I heard some news about Moon Calcium and Lunar-Poles back in 2005 but that's about it
and I can count all the newsitems I've seen on this Smart-one on 'One-Hand', you guys are right the ESA is PR disaster !

Posted by: The Messenger Apr 11 2006, 02:32 PM

For those of us silly enough to ride out the night of the Venus Expess insertion, the 'press' effort was very predictable: We had a silent webcam of the control room set at an angle that revealed nothing. Once again a great story, great success, and no technical detail sad.gif

For news we had Emily running in and out of the briefing center, downloading her typing elsewhere, and finally we had a press conference where the only relevant question was artfully dogged:

"Did you achieve the desired orbit?"

"Ask me again in an hour, after we have ranging data."

It was a good answer, but a better on would have been "We have the Doppler, but not the ranging data, yet, and a report on whether or not the Doppler is nominal.

Finally, it has been many hours now, and of coarse, no ranging data has been publicly posted - (I would love to be wrong about this).

But not to worry, we were assured that there will be another press conference...at the end of the Venus Express mission rolleyes.gif

Edited to add:
At ~12:30 UTC the ESA announced the results of the orbital insertion are "nominal".

Posted by: ljk4-1 Apr 25 2006, 01:47 PM

Monday, 24-Apr-2006

===================================================
HUBBLE SPACE TELESCOPE

+ 16TH ANNIVERSARY OF HUBBLE SPACE TELESCOPE [HEIC0604]
To celebrate the NASA-ESA Hubble Space Telescope's 16 years of success, the two
space agencies are releasing this mosaic image of the magnificent starburst
galaxy, Messier 82 (M82). It is the sharpest wide-angle view ever obtained of
M82, a galaxy remarkable for its webs of shredded clouds and flame-like plumes
of glowing hydrogen blasting out from its central regions.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39139

+ MAGELLANIC GEMSTONES IN THE SOUTHERN SKY [HEIC0603]
Hubble has captured the most detailed images to date of the open star clusters
NGC 265 and NGC 290 in the Small Magellanic Cloud - two sparkling sets of
gemstones in the southern sky.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39107

===================================================
MISSION STATUS REPORTS

+ VENUS EXPRESS - ORBITAL CONTROL MANOEUVRES
Report for period 14 April - 20 April 2006. Venus Express has successfully
completed its 9-days capture orbit with the first of five Apocentre Lowering
Manoeuvres on Thursday, 20 April at about 08:00 UTC (200 m/s). This manoeuvre
has set the spacecraft onto an orbit with a period of about 40 hours and an
apocenter altitude of 99 000 km.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39138

+ ROSETTA - FIRST SOLAR CONJUNCTION
Report for period 10 March - 7 April 2006. The reporting period covers four
weeks of cruise, in which the spacecraft was gradually entering the first solar
conjunction of the mission. At the end of the reporting period the angular
separation from the Sun was down to 1.04°.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39113

+ SMART-1 - SMALL DROP IN SOLAR ARRAY POWER
Report for period 20 February to 19 March 2006. SMART-1 operations have been
nominal during this period. It has been found that after an eclipse occurred on
28 October, there was a drop in the solar array +Y current of about 1.1 Amps
(~52 Watts). The Swedish Space Corporation (SSC), SMART-1's industrial prime
contractor, has suggested that the most probable cause is the loss of one
subsection of the solar array at the +Y panel. The small reduction in power is
not causing any problem for the spacecraft's day-to-day operation.
http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39073

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Posted by: remcook May 3 2006, 01:43 PM

Interesting bit regarding this in Emily's excellent notes on the VEXAG meeting:

"I hear a lot of complaining from people about how ESA does not do as well as NASA as making its data available, either by way of press releases or through archiving of data in a way that other scientists can use. This strange lack of funding for data analysis is one of the reasons that ESA data tends to be less available than NASA data. It's not that the scientists don't want to share, it's that they simply don't get funded to do the work necessary to share. " [says Håkan Svedhem]

http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00000559/

Posted by: helvick May 3 2006, 04:51 PM

QUOTE (remcook @ May 3 2006, 02:43 PM) *
It's not that the scientists don't want to share, it's that they simply don't get funded to do the work necessary to share. " [says Håkan Svedhem]
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00000559/

Time for us Europeans to get off our backsides and start asking for some funding to be allocated for this.

Posted by: The Messenger May 3 2006, 05:34 PM

QUOTE (remcook @ May 3 2006, 07:43 AM) *
Interesting bit regarding this in Emily's excellent notes on the VEXAG meeting:

"I hear a lot of complaining from people about how ESA does not do as well as NASA as making its data available, either by way of press releases or through archiving of data in a way that other scientists can use. This strange lack of funding for data analysis is one of the reasons that ESA data tends to be less available than NASA data. It's not that the scientists don't want to share, it's that they simply don't get funded to do the work necessary to share. " [says Håkan Svedhem]

http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00000559/

This is somewhat of a red herring. Was there or was there not, an investigation into the Channel A failure on Huygens, and when will the (promised) report be released? Why wasn't the problem with the mirror on Venus Express made public until five months after the fact? The only mention I can find about safe mode problems of the Mars Express is in the articles touting that these problems have not surfaced on the Venus Express.

And in any event, saying that they lack the resources to properly study scientific data is all the more reason that it should be released to the public as soon as possible - if the data is not athenticated and calibrated, let the users know and beware. There are hundreds of hungry graduate students who would give their left eye for a crack at virgin data. This is very similar to what happened with the Dead Sea Scrolls - they were cloistured away for years waiting for the experts to have time to pick through them, but as soon as the pages where made publicly available, a fountain of papers emerged.

Posted by: ugordan May 4 2006, 03:37 PM

QUOTE (The Messenger @ May 3 2006, 06:34 PM) *
saying that they lack the resources to properly study scientific data

I don't think that's what they're saying. They're saying they aren't funded for preparation of data for public release NOT that they are unable to work through the data themselves.

Posted by: The Messenger May 4 2006, 03:49 PM

QUOTE (ugordan @ May 4 2006, 09:37 AM) *
I don't think that's what they're saying. They're saying they aren't funded for preparation of data for public release NOT that they are unable to work through the data themselves.

...which is a better excuse than ITAR.

Posted by: The Messenger May 9 2006, 02:22 PM

I have been very impressed with the Cassini mission reporting, both with the quick release of raw data, new observations, and the event log:

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/sig-events.cfm

It is great to have a front row seat to a great mission!

I bring attention to this here, because of this entry in the Cassini event log:

QUOTE
It turns out that the SSPS for the USO was tripped, causing no one-way
downlink carrier or data. This tripped switch condition is consistent with
ones seen in the past. This is the sixteenth trip seen to date, the third
trip of a switch that was ON at the time, and the second trip this year. The
previous trip occurred very recently on March 2, 2006. They are predicted
to occur at a rate of about two per year, and are most likely caused by
Galactic Cosmic Rays.


I have to ask the question: Could the Huygens channel 'A' failure have been caused by the accidental tripping of the SSPS for the Huygens USO by a cosmic ray, rather than a programming error? The announcement that it was a programming error was made on the same day as the landing, at a time when everyone was exhaustively tired and not necessarily in best form for analysing code.

Has a follow-up report been issued confirming the programming error? Was it related to ITAR access restrictions as has been intimated elsewhere? As a sometimes analyst of critical event programing, it is difficult for me to imaging that the command to "Turn on the Power Supply" was omitted from a programing sequence that developed through years of careful planning. This is one time that a gremlin makes more sense.

Posted by: Bob Shaw May 9 2006, 05:37 PM

QUOTE (The Messenger @ May 9 2006, 03:22 PM) *
The announcement that it was a programming error was made on the same day as the landing, at a time when everyone was exhaustively tired and not necessarily in best form for analysing code.


I had the impression that the error was not in the computer programme content so much as in the workflow, and that the error was managerial rather than anything else - it simply wasn't picked up during whatever preparatory work was done.

I may be wrong...

Bob shaw

Posted by: remcook May 13 2006, 03:41 PM

Why does ESA have an american presenter called Tammy? huh.gif

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESApod/SEMKFX8ATME_0.html

Posted by: BruceMoomaw May 13 2006, 10:55 PM

QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ May 9 2006, 05:37 PM) *
I had the impression that the error was not in the computer programme content so much as in the workflow, and that the error was managerial rather than anything else - it simply wasn't picked up during whatever preparatory work was done.

I may be wrong...


There was quite a detailed article on the error in Aviation Week, in which the ESA not only said flatly that it was a software error, but blamed ITAR for not allowing them to do enough software rechecks to catch it. More details later, when I'm not too tired to look them up.

Posted by: Bob Shaw May 14 2006, 12:52 AM

QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 13 2006, 11:55 PM) *
There was quite a detailed article on the error in Aviation Week, in which the ESA not only said flatly that it was a software error, but blamed ITAR for not allowing them to do enough software rechecks to catch it. More details later, when I'm not yoo tired to look them up.


Bruce:

I think we might not be in disagreement, except in the details of interpretation!

Bob Shaw

Posted by: DonPMitchell May 14 2006, 02:32 PM

I keep checking the ESA site and their planetary data archive. I share the frustration voiced my many here about the lack of openness about data, images and mission status. I don't buy the argument that they lack resources to put images on a website. Every entry about Venus Express on their public website comes with those useless paintings or CGI renderings of the spacecraft doing this or that. That costs at least as much money as someone dropping a real image file into a website. It costs nothing at all for the PIs to drop a picture into a blog. The only exception seems to have been the Titan pictures, and I fear that was only because the PI on the camera system was from Arizona University.

Here are some links to supposed data resources:

http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/project/virtis/virtis-images.html
http://www.mps.mpg.de/projects/venus-express/vmc/
http://www.mps.mpg.de/projects/venus-express/vmc/

I think there needs to be some public pressure on ESA about this issue, because frankly I just don't think they care if anyone other than the principle investigators have access to their data. Don't make excuses for them, complain!

Posted by: mcaplinger May 14 2006, 03:47 PM

QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 13 2006, 03:55 PM) *
ESA not only said flatly that it was a software error, but blamed ITAR for not allowing them to do enough software rechecks to catch it...

Was it ITAR that caused them to forget the Doppler effect in their receiver design? I don't think so.
I think they are just using ITAR as a convenient excuse for simple human error.

Posted by: BruceMoomaw May 14 2006, 04:30 PM

Maybe. Anyway, here's the story from the 1-31-05 Aviation Week:

"Mission operations experts said there was an opportunity to catch the problem in a March 2003 rehearsal of the descent, and suggested that a heavy workload at the time and export-control rules conspired to hide the problem...

"Careful examination of the rehearsal engineering telemetry provided by the PSA [Probe Support Avionics package] would have shown that the RUSO [Receiver Ultra-Stable Oscillator] was off. But, because of the pointing angle of the Cassini antenna, during the rehearsal it was not possible for it to receive simulated Huugens radio signals coming from Earth. That allowed the missing RUSO instruction to remain obscured because actual RF operation of the receivers was not tested.

"Under the workshare agreement between JPL and ESA, this telemetry was provided to ESA for review without being examined by JPL, which at the time was busy preparing for Saturn orbit Insertion. ESA's inquiry is trying to determine how the problem was missed.

"The general agreement between JPL and ESA is to draw a line between the probe and the orbiter and define the interface between the two. Then each agency proceeds, sticking mainly to its own side. On the orbiter, this line was drawn between the PSA and the rest of the spacecraft. JPL acts as a courier service for ESA's binary commands to the PSA and data coming out of the PSA, which are decoded by ESA.

"This divided workshare is partly to simplify the arrangement, but it is also driven by ITAR [regulations] that seek a clear boundary and discourage JPL from providing assistance to ESA. Roles were separated in ground tests as well. When the PSA was tested at JPL, ESA engineers took the data and left, in part due to ITAR. As a result, there haven't been any systems engineers operating across the JPL/ESA interface on Cassini/Huygens. 'You have to have a systems enginer for the entire link or you are dommed,' one official said.

"David Southwood, ESA's science director, has made it clear from the outset that he considers his agency responsible for the error. But he noted last week that the problem 'clearly lies on the boundary between ESA and NASA, and so does ITAR.

" 'We are not against security measures by the US or anyone else, but we need to have effective international cooperation,' he said. 'We don't want this event to cause us to pull back [on cooperation], but interface issues are clearly part of the story.' "

Posted by: mcaplinger May 14 2006, 06:10 PM

QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 14 2006, 09:30 AM) *
"David Southwood, ESA's science director, has made it clear from the outset that he considers his agency responsible for the error. But he noted last week that the problem 'clearly lies on the boundary between ESA and NASA, and so does ITAR...

Such interfaces are a potential problem, worthy of great scrutiny, regardless of whether they cross international boundaries. Southwood says himself, and this seems clearly the case from the facts in evidence, that this is ESA's error. If they knew the interface was critical, they should have been paying more attention to it. They built the receiver system on Cassini and it was their responsibility to insure it had been commanded into the right mode.

I'd read about this in the official ESA review, had they ever released any such thing.

Posted by: The Messenger May 14 2006, 06:29 PM

Thanks for the legwork Bruce. I would still be much happier with a formal report issued months, not weeks after the faux paw.

"Careful examination of the rehearsal engineering telemetry provided by the PSA [Probe Support Avionics package] would have shown that the RUSO [Receiver Ultra-Stable Oscillator] was off. But, because of the pointing angle of the Cassini antenna, during the rehearsal it was not possible for it to receive simulated Huugens radio signals coming from Earth. That allowed the missing RUSO instruction to remain obscured because actual RF operation of the receivers was not tested."

This is amazing. Shouldn't this functionality of this code have been well-defined and tested long before launch, long before ITAR stuck its mitts into the gearbox?

The black-box status described should not have been acceptable to anyone involved in mission communications on either side of the Atlantic. How can you walk off into an eight year long trek in the forest without once making sure your walkie talkies are on the same frequency and the on/off switches are working blink.gif

For what it is worth, I have never read any mention of ITAR in any of the hundreds of pages of mission planning documents. There are a number of places where NASA/ESA responsibilities are delineated, but as much as I would LIKE to blame ITAR, wasn't all of the contractual hocum in place long before ITAR?

Posted by: BruceMoomaw May 14 2006, 10:35 PM

Oh, there's no question that most of the blame belongs squarely on the shoulders of ESA -- Southwood would have looked like a moron to deny it, and as Mike Caplinger says they also screwed up the Doppler business on the receiver. (Thank God they caught THAT in early rehearsals -- I'm just waiting for the public reaction when an expensive outer Solar System probe spends years getting to its destination and then fails at the last second, as so many inner System missions have.)

But they are hardly the only ones griping about ITAR -- "Phoenix" project scientist Deborah Bass waxes almost apoplectic about it on her blogsite ( http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/features/weblogs/deborah_bass.php , 6-17-05 and 9-15-05 entries).

Posted by: mcaplinger May 14 2006, 11:27 PM

QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 14 2006, 03:35 PM) *
But they are hardly the only ones griping about ITAR...

Bruce, I'm not disputing that ITAR is a pain in the ass, but then so is international cooperation in general. Just scheduling telecons with Europe is a huge pain. For that matter, even the East Coast is a pain. smile.gif

All I'm saying is that the notion that the Cassini problems were caused by ITAR is simply not supported by fact.

Posted by: DonPMitchell May 15 2006, 01:00 AM

Of course, nobody likes to admit they made a multi-million-dollar boo-boo. In terms of being forthright, the ESA seems to be somewhere in between NASA and the early Soviets. Spaceflight is complex, and developing insanely rigorous QA and procedures is one of the hard-won lessons the Americans and Russians learned.

Posted by: ljk4-1 May 16 2006, 02:40 PM

International Workshop Eyes Cooperative Solar System Exploration

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/International_Workshop_Eyes_Cooperative_Solar_System_Exploration.html

Sarteano, Italy (SPX) May 15, 2006 - More than 60 participants representing
space agencies from Europe, North America and Asia have concluded the ESA/ASI
Workshop for International Cooperation for Sustainable Space Exploration.

Posted by: Bob Shaw May 16 2006, 05:38 PM

QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 15 2006, 02:00 AM) *
Of course, nobody likes to admit they made a multi-million-dollar boo-boo. In terms of being forthright, the ESA seems to be somewhere in between NASA and the early Soviets. Spaceflight is complex, and developing insanely rigorous QA and procedures is one of the hard-won lessons the Americans and Russians learned.



Don:

In between... ...18 months for DART, 17 months for the Huygens data cock-up, about a month or so for Soyuz-11 and weeks for the pre-ASTP Soyuz abort?

I think I'll stick with the Soviets!

Bob Shaw

Posted by: ljk4-1 May 24 2006, 03:06 PM

MISSION NEWS AS OF 24 MAY 2006

+ SOHO MISSION EXTENSION

At the Science Programme Committee (SPC) meeting on 15-16 May, an extension of
the SOHO mission was approved, pushing back the mission end date from April 2007
to December 2009. The new funding ensures that SOHO plays a leading part in the
fleet of solar spacecraft scheduled for launch over the next few years.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39292

+ HUBBLE CAPTURES A FIVE-STAR RATED GRAVITATIONAL LENS [HEIC0606]

The NASA/ESA Hubble Space Telescope has captured the first-ever picture of a
distant quasar lensed into five images. In addition the picture holds a treasure
of lensed galaxies and even a supernova.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39283

+ AKARI FIRST LIGHT

AKARI (formerly known as ASTRO-F), the new Japanese infrared sky surveyor
mission in which ESA is participating, saw first light on 13 April 2006 (UT).
The first images were taken towards the end of a successful checkout of the
spacecraft in orbit and show the reflection nebula IC 4954 and spiral galaxy M
81.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39279

====================================================
MISSION STATUS REPORTS

+ SMART-1 SECOND PUSH-BROOM OPERATIONS PHASE

Report for period 17 April to 14 may 2006

This period saw the start of the second push-broom observations phase. SMART-1
operations have been nominal apart from a necessary adjustment in the solar
arrays offset to prevent the arrays from reaching temperatures above the
qualification level.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39291

+ VENUS EXPRESS EARLY ROUTINE SCIENCE OPERATIONS

Report for period 14 May to 20 May 2006

The reporting period is the first during which all operations have been executed
according to the planning inputs received from the Science Operations Center.
The spacecraft is operating nominally and all observations were executed as
scheduled without any problems.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39290

=====================================================
FUTURE MISSIONS - UPDATE

+ PLANCK PREPARING FOR THERMAL TESTING OF TELESCOPE

The Planck telescope will be tested soon at low temperature (100-110K) in the
Large Space Simulator test facility at ESTEC. The objective of this test is to
measure the deformations of the fully integrated Planck Flight Model telescope
at low temperatures with video-grammetry.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=39284

=====================================================
KEEP IN TOUCH

+ SCITECH RSS

Subscribe to SciTech's RSS (Really Simple Syndication) feeds to get the latest
updates delivered directly to your desktop.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=37599

+ SCITECH SCREENSAVER

Don't forget to download the SciTech Screensaver a multi-facetted application
that allows you to keep abreast of status reports, news and announcements of
events taking place at ESA Science.

http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=34651

=====================================================

Please contact us through the Scitech Website: http://sci.esa.int

Posted by: BruceMoomaw May 24 2006, 04:03 PM

Looks like they still haven't got the damn PFS mirror unstuck.

Posted by: DonPMitchell May 24 2006, 04:43 PM

QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 24 2006, 09:03 AM) *
Looks like they still haven't got the damn PFS mirror unstuck.


Keep your fingers crossed. That's one of the most important experiments. We still don't really know what is in the damn clouds on Venus, especially the lower layers. Here are some specs on Fourier spectrometers sent to Venus:

PFS:
1.2 - 5 micron with 8000 samples
5 - 45 micron with 2000 samples

Venera-15:
6 - 40 micron with 2845 samples
(reduced to 1024 in telemetry)

So it certainly seems like it will example the shorter range with far greater resolution, if they can get it unstuck. Didn't this instrument cause problems on Mars Express too? Is it the same problem?

Posted by: The Messenger May 24 2006, 05:15 PM

QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 24 2006, 10:43 AM) *
So it certainly seems like it will example the shorter range with far greater resolution, if they can get it unstuck. Didn't this instrument cause problems on Mars Express too? Is it the same problem?

We have been assured on this thread discussing the problem:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=2460&st=15

That there is no commonality, other than the fact that they are both a long ways from home and no one is around to give either one of them a swift kick.

Posted by: BruceMoomaw May 24 2006, 05:37 PM

Yes -- the problem with the PFS on Mars Express was the gradual failure (after 10 months) of a internal motorized "vibrating pendulum" setup that was necessary to make the interferometer work with proper resolution. Fortunately, they had a backup motor included in the event of such a problem. In this case, it's the instrument's entire outside viewing mirror that is (at least to some extent) stuck.

Posted by: Littlebit Nov 8 2006, 02:58 PM

Has anyone, besides me, tried to extract information from the Huygens data archive? It is actually not too difficult, once the data base is understood. But there are some problems:

1) Not all of the science is there - several experiments have not been added - the folders are still empty, including sonic and surface science data.

2) What is there, is incomplete. The altimeter data is 'corrected' and there is a reference to a paper that explains how and why, but the paper is not included in the archives...i don't think - there are hundreds of pages of supportive documents with minimal indexing and no capacity for key word searches.

There is only one file containing barametric pressure data, and it is entered at 77 second intervals. These values were recorded at least every second, where is all the data?

3) To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a release of the results of the investigation into the software error that caused the loss of data on channel A, and no release of the VLA triangulation data which may or may not collaborate the calculated Huygens' descent profile.

This is very important, because with the loss of the Doppler experiment, assumptions had to be made, including the existence of a powerful wind shear in the upper atmosphere. These turbulant wind profiles are quite at odds with the Voyager and Cassini Titan limb and cloud observations, which indicate a very benign atmosphere at all altitudes. There is also the issue of Huygens rotation in the opposite direction from what was expected. Is the atmosphere turbulent, or was the parachute tangled? Or do we just not know?

Posted by: Littlebit Jan 18 2007, 07:14 PM

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM7QJRMTWE_index_0.html


Huygens’s second landing anniversary – the surprises continue


But don't be too surprised...If there is any new information in this release, I am surprised:

QUOTE
Huygens has exceeded expectations and shown Titan to be an 'alien earth', giving planetary scientists a new world of fascination to explore.
wink.gif

Posted by: ustrax Feb 16 2007, 05:26 PM

ESA outreach efforts back at http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2007/02/citizens-can.html.

Posted by: Mongo Feb 23 2007, 08:16 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Feb 23 2007, 07:39 PM) *
Seems to me this is a system that grants the PIs *far* too much power and secrecy. They are guaranteed a lion's share of the credit for any discoveries made by their experiments, they ought not be so paranoid about anyone other than themselves seeing anything beyond what The Wizard decides to allow us to see in His published works... *sigh*...


Sorry if this is getting too off-topic, but at least the data exist, and will (I assume) eventually be released.

Compare this to archaeology, where the excavation leader used to have full control over the publication schedule, and often waited years or decades before publishing. There were many cases where he or she died before getting around to publishing, resulting in a complete loss of information about what was found at that site -- and since the site is destroyed during the excavation, the information is gone for good.

Compared to that, a few extra years' wait for Venus Express results is not too bad. (not that it's good, since the delay presumably hinders planning for followup missions)

Bill

Posted by: JRehling Feb 23 2007, 09:15 PM

QUOTE (Mongo @ Feb 23 2007, 12:16 PM) *
Sorry if this is getting too off-topic, but at least the data exist, and will (I assume) eventually be released.

Compare this to archaeology, where the excavation leader used to have full control over the publication schedule, and often waited years or decades before publishing. There were many cases where he or she died before getting around to publishing, resulting in a complete loss of information about what was found at that site -- and since the site is destroyed during the excavation, the information is gone for good.

Compared to that, a few extra years' wait for Venus Express results is not too bad. (not that it's good, since the delay presumably hinders planning for followup missions)

Bill



Good points, but archaeology digs don't cost $200 million, and Venus is a much harder place for unscrupulous raiders to poach your dig.

Posted by: tedstryk Feb 23 2007, 09:29 PM

I don't know about the other instruments, but I know that in the case of the VMC, until recently, there haven't been any scientific results due to callibration issues as a result of instrument anomalies. Now that these anomalies have been characterized, the data can be properly processed. As I understood it, it was just on time to put together the nature paper, which is embargoed.

Posted by: ustrax Feb 26 2007, 03:19 PM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Feb 23 2007, 08:26 PM) *
...in a thread that was, after all, started by an ESA employee to share information with us that wasn't yet available elsewhere.


Sometimes I can't really understand some people...
Looks like they're doing it on purpose...
I, as European AND Tax Payer am extremely proud for the work developed by ESA since its foundation almost 20 years after NASA.
I'm proud to see my miserable 1,5€/year being spent in such manner, helping making great science, taking us to Mars, Venus, unravelling some of the Universe's secrets...

If people are unhappy with the outreach policy they should complain to the proper authority and not to someone who freely gives some of its time.

The rules of the game are clear, even if those same rules are against what some scientists might think on the subject:

"In fact, much differently from NASA, ESA - by its constitution - doesn't fund the payload of its spacecraft, which are on the contrary funded by European Scientific institutes or National Space Agencies. The payload
scientists have priority right to use the scientific data for a few months from their reception; only after this time ESA can claim back its full property of the data."

Contrary to what some people might think ESA is not part of the EU, is an independent organism.

...And I won't even start talking about people starting making suppositions about Rosetta's images... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: djellison Feb 26 2007, 04:02 PM

The ammount of time that ESA has been around is in no way a mitigating factor in their current press efforts.

I am very proud of what my money does with ESA (even more so having visited ESOC) ...but I still maintain, based on the facts of what is and is not available to the public, they are not doing enough.

I was discussing only last night with someone who was in the room with me when I asked Bernard Foing when Smart 1 data would start being released. That was last October in Valencia and he said a few weeks.

Hmmmmm.. (checks PSA) . Nope. DISR, SSP.....Nope. VEX.....Nope.

If you want to compare something for a laugh - look at the speed with which every ounce of DI data was dumped onto the PDS before the end of '05.

It's a two fold problem - they're not in the habit of release science data as quickly and as completely as they should which is unacceptable from a scientific perspective - and the ammount of imagery released by VEX and Smart 1 was nothing short of disgracefull. I'm not looking for MER and HiRISE like performances....although that would be nice...I'm just looking for enough information so that if someone goes "can you give a talk about Venus Express" - I don't have to go "Sorry - there's not enough information out there to do a talk about"

BUT - to be fair...at least we see something from MEX and HRSC and VEX. I'm beginning to think MARCI has fallen off MRO.

Doug

Posted by: Stu Feb 27 2007, 12:09 AM

What really, really disappoints - and, yes, bugs - me about ESA's poor public Outreach efforts isn't anything to do with "getting value for my money", it's about ESA displaying a quite frightening lack of common sense, and an even more disturbing lack of appreciation for the treasures they have. I've said it before but I'll say it again - ESA is Just Not Getting It!

We live in a visual age now, and a 24hr image-on-demand age at that. A news story breaks, it is on internet news sites within minutes and on the TV News a few minutes later, we all know that. Instant gratification, for good or bad, that's just the way of the world now. Pictures talk, they always have done. But pictures aren't just worth a thousand words anymore, they're worth ten thousand, as people surfing the net at breakneck speed scan page after page, eyes flicking in search of something that grabs them by the eyeballs and makes them think it's worth pausing in their mouse clicking to take a closer look. NASA knows this, which is why it releases killer pics from Hubble, Cassini and the MERs at the earliest opportunity.

ESA isn't NASA, I know that... different budget, different missions, different hierachies etc etc... but they're in the same business, and have the same customers: us. I don't mean we're financial customers, I mean that, after the media, we're the main group of people who take what they produce and work with it, day after day, spreading it to others, either through using the images in illustrated talks to large groups or just by calling someone at work over to our computer to show them something cool. Most people here have done that, I'm sure. And we're all here because we want to see new pictures as often and as quickly as possible, let's face it.

This weekend, with the public more aware of Mars than ever before - thanks to the wonderful images taken and released from MERs, MRO, Odyssey and MGS, splashed all over the internet and on the pages of magazines from Norway to Antarctica - with Rosetta passing Mars ESA had a huge, impressive Gift Horse, a great steaming beast of an animal, ready to let loose upon the world. Instead they let it out of its paddock for a brief trot around, allowing the public a brief, tantalising glimpse of it, then penned it in again, out of sight. Today, breathtaking images from Rosetta should have been dominating the internet space pages and headlining every TV news program too. Rosetta should have been proclaimed across the world as a triumph, proof that European technology was equal to American (not saying it is, not getting into that argument at all! rolleyes.gif ) but nothing new has come out since yesterday, and that's not just a shame, it's not just disappointing, to be brutally frank it's b****y stupid. I'm sure they're not, but it makes ESA seem aloof and snobbish, as if all that mattered was getting in the right position to take the pictures and not the pictures themselves.

ESA has big plans, Big Plans, a sleek, silver Mars rover among them. If those plans are going to succeed, then they need to re-think their whole approach to Outreach, because if they don't they just won't get the support - political or public - necessary to stage such ambitious missions.

There are only two real possible reasons why they are so bad at this. One, they just don't care; the science is the important thing, and we, the Little People, couldn't possibly understand the science, so why bother trying to explain - or show - results to us? Or, two, they genuinely Don't Get This, they don't realise that out here the Little People now have a hunger for these images, and are genuinely excited by them. They don't realise that some of us out here give talks and want, desperately, to include ESA missions in our presentations but, as Doug said, can't because there's nothing to use. (Just last week I gave a talk, and at the end someone said to me, quite pointedly, "Why have you just shown pictures taken by American spaceships? Europe has a space program too you know!" I had to explain to him that I'd love to show pictures taken by European probes but they're rarer than dragon's eggs... I honestly don't think he believed me...)

I want to believe it's #2. So, with that in mind I'm going to send a copy of this posting to David Southwood and see what comes back. I'll let you know.

Wish me luck!

Posted by: dvandorn Feb 27 2007, 02:28 AM

QUOTE (JRehling @ Feb 23 2007, 03:15 PM) *
Good points, but archaeology digs don't cost $200 million, and Venus is a much harder place for unscrupulous raiders to poach your dig.

And nothing makes the practice in archeology right or useful, either.

Hoarding useful (and interesting!) data is simply not justifiable to me. I appreciate it when a PI says "We've put so much of our lives into this, isn't it fair that we get to see and use the data before anyone else sees it?" But while someone may have spent years or decades of their lives working on these programs, his or her salary almost invariably comes from the public.

If I'm helping to pay salaries, I don't think it's fair that they keep their work secret from me, or want to release to me only those bits of it they choose to show me. As an American who grew up in the 1960s, that kind of behavior was always characterized as the Soviet approach to things. It was invariably criticized, and cited as one of the reasons why the Soviets had such high failure rates in their space programs.

The whole thing *feels* like an attempt on the part of the PIs to avoid any accountability for their work. These people are accountable to their supporting taxpayers and to humanity in general, *not* just for the publication of whatever small subset of their data they choose to show the world.

Maybe it's just an American cultural thing, I don't know, but I think Americans tend to mistrust people who hoard information. In America, people who keep secrets are usually thought of as people who have something to hide. I know that my basic emotional response to ESA's poor excuse for public outreach is "What the heck are they hiding from me, and why should they want to hide anything from me?"

This is the kind of behavior that just fuels the kooks and c0nspir@cy guys, too -- how many times have those guys pulled the line "if this probe took thousands of pictures, what's in the ones they haven't shown us??? Why are they keeping them secret???"

-the other Doug

Posted by: mchan Feb 27 2007, 06:12 AM

Good points, Stu. Perhaps an appeal to European pride, then. Rosetta is a European flagship. On such a good opportunity as this where many people around the world will notice, wave that flag! Attract more notice with new photos!

Posted by: 4th rock from the sun Feb 27 2007, 04:43 PM

The strangest thing is that if you start Googling and clicking you can find some unreleased, at least to my knowledge, images. Please look here http://http://www.dlr.de/dlr-rosetta/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-206/347_read-7819/ and scroll down the page for two excellent Mars Express images that I'd never seen before.

As I really don't know that much German, I wonder if there are much more great images "lost" in sites like these!

Posted by: ugordan Feb 27 2007, 04:49 PM

That's a great find right there! These are probably pending release on the ESA site. If you don't mind, I'd post the link in the Rosetta Mars Flyby forum also.

Posted by: mchan Feb 27 2007, 08:29 PM

This a good example of great eye-catching images that should received wider public notice. I don't know if these have been released on ESA's websites. It is my first time seeing these images. If these images have not been released on ESA's websites, then they should have been.

But as noted in an earlier post, the images may "belong" to the investigators. In which case, it's the investigators that should consider better PR / outreach.

Posted by: helvick Feb 27 2007, 08:42 PM

Those pictures are a very cool discovery but they are both MEX HRSC shots not Rosetta flyby images as I commented in the http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=3946&pid=84761&st=135&#
As far as I can establish ESA has (as yet) not published either of these shots as MEX images though which bang on topic for this thread.
It's a pity really because they are wonderful.

Posted by: remcook Feb 27 2007, 08:45 PM

I read somewhere (maybe doug's blog) that ESA was planning to release Rosetta images and ALSO coordinated Mars Express images. My (naive/optimistic?) bet is that these images will appear soon. Just a shame that DLR and ESA don't seem to be coordinating things a bit more.

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Feb 27 2007, 08:51 PM

Along these same lines, I'm hearing that there is a big MEx MARSIS release in the near future.

Posted by: mchan Mar 1 2007, 10:07 AM

Yes, but the image on APOD is rotated 90 deg CCW from its presentation on ESA's site and reproduced everywhere else so far. It does not reach out and grab my attention in the way of the original presentation.

Posted by: ugordan Mar 1 2007, 10:33 AM

Have you tried clicking the image?

Posted by: mchan Mar 1 2007, 01:31 PM

Not until I saw above post. Good that the click-thru to the high-res image reverts the orientation.

Someone seeing the image for the first time would probably click-thru to find the good view. This jaded old UMSF person had already been spoiled by having seen the high res image prior and was not inclined to click-thru a mis-oriented version of same. smile.gif

Posted by: Stu Mar 1 2007, 02:46 PM

... meanwhile the promised, beautiful "Mars seen as a crescent as Rosetta heads into deep space" images are where...?

Posted by: djellison Mar 1 2007, 02:50 PM

I'm wearing a not-suprised-but-disapointed facial expression whilst shrugging my shoulders.

Doug

Posted by: ugordan Mar 1 2007, 02:52 PM

Just as a sort of comparison, it took the Cassini imaging team 5-6 days to release an image of the huge Titan lake and that image hasn't even been cleaned up of cosmic ray noise i.e. it's a pretty raw product. Admittedly, the two can't be directly compared as one is merely a pretty (?) scene, the other is a discovery and discoveries should not be rushed...
Patience is a virtue in space exploration. wink.gif

Posted by: OWW Mar 1 2007, 05:23 PM

Ok, patience is a virtue. But the images were promised to be released on Sunday 13:00 CET. It said so on the ESA website. That's almost a week ago.

I really hope MESSENGER will succeed, because I really want to see that unexplored part of Mercury. Don't count on Bepi-Colombo, you just Know those pictures will disappear in some dusty drawer. mad.gif

Posted by: Sunspot Mar 1 2007, 06:34 PM

The few images that were released were clearly intended to satisfy the press/media 12 hour attention span. Now that the media are no longer interested in the story there's no need for new images.

Posted by: Stu Mar 1 2007, 07:36 PM

You must admit it's disappointing, ugordan... all that build-up, all the simulations, and now here we are, KNOWING that more pictures were taken and are just languishing on some hard drive somewhere. It's just... well... silly, no need for it. Crescent images of Mars aren't going to yield any breathtaking scientific insights, they're basically nice postcards... but nice postcards are the "first point of contact" with space exploration technology and missions for the man and woman and kid in the street. As I've said before, and as I suggested to David Southwood in my email - which he hasn't answered yet, but he must be pretty busy at the moment! - ESA just Doesn't Get the value and necessity of Popular Outreach. Which is a shame. And ******* annoying.

But to lurch back on topic for this thread, congratulations again to all the Rosetta techs, the fly-by was a great achievement. I've been looking at that full Mars image a lot, and it really is a beautiful picure, but somehow I keep being drawn back to that view of Mars through Rosetta's rigging, that's just hypnotising...

Posted by: tedstryk Mar 1 2007, 07:50 PM

What really bothers me is that several investigators and principal investigators on ESA missions have expressed frustration with the lack of resources and coordination in ESA PR. I frankly think that it is an issue of resource allocation (both at ESA and national levels), as well as bureaucratic inertia. I haven't come across a single case of a PI or other investigator not caring or wanting to hoard the data. I think it may be that between Giotto and MEX, ESA planetary instruments were riding on other nations missions (I am ignoring Ulysses, because its results, while fascinating, aren't very press release friendly - in other words, not pictures), and so the slowness/size of the releases slipped under the radar. For example the FOC on Hubble was an ESA instrument, but most of the results we have seen from it came, at least initially, through NASA. Now, with their own missions, we finally are seeing the problem, but inertia has set in.

Posted by: volcanopele Mar 1 2007, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (ugordan @ Mar 1 2007, 07:52 AM) *
Just as a sort of comparison, it took the Cassini imaging team 5-6 days to release an image of the huge Titan lake and that image hasn't even been cleaned up of cosmic ray noise i.e. it's a pretty raw product. Admittedly, the two can't be directly compared as one is merely a pretty (?) scene, the other is a discovery and discoveries should not be rushed...
Patience is a virtue in space exploration. wink.gif

Actually, the image with the huge Titan lake was released about a day after it came down...

Posted by: ugordan Mar 1 2007, 09:24 PM

QUOTE (volcanopele @ Mar 1 2007, 10:11 PM) *
Actually, the image with the huge Titan lake was released about a day after it came down...

My bad, I thought the image in question was wide-angle in which case it would have had been taken shortly after C/A.

Posted by: Toma B Mar 2 2007, 06:09 AM

My worst fears are becoming reality...another SMART,VEX,MEX...
NOT AGAIN!!!
Will they ever learn... sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif

Posted by: Ant103 Mar 2 2007, 05:22 PM

I'm european as you see it, and I can't understand the attitude of the ESA to show very few pictures. I.E. I can't believe that they took 2 or 3 pictures during the Rosetta's mars flyby.
I'm very pessimitic about the next mission Pasteur (ExoMarsRover). I don't want one poor panorama per trimester. For me, they MUST have the same politic has Nasa. They can win a lot of feedback and a better popularity than those they have now.
Remember when RAW images from Huygens were put on the web : a lot of "amateurs scientists" took them and processed the data.

View thez differences : NASA, raw pictures all the days (or just a bit more) ; ESA, pictures given one time a month. It's too much!

Posted by: nprev Mar 3 2007, 04:03 PM

In a way, I understand ESA's actions. They tend to hold their releases until they have something truly exciting to show, which is fundamentally different from NASA's general policy of immediate publication of even raw data...quality vs. quantity, it seems.

Still...they really do need to work on their press relations & revise this policy...seems like most of it is an afterthought. Witness the fact that Doug had no Internet access during the Rosetta flyby; this certainly indicates that rapid information dissemination during the event wasn't on their list of concerns. In fact, it's quite possible that ESA's PR department is seriously understaffed & underfunded because the organization has an extraordinarily tight science focus. From what I've heard, NASA had somewhat similar problems in the early days, but this was quickly overcome by massive public interest at the time. If so, this is an organizational culture thing, and not easily changed.

EDIT: Hey, I just became a "senior"...post 1000! smile.gif

Posted by: ustrax Mar 3 2007, 07:41 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Mar 3 2007, 04:03 PM) *
In a way, I understand ESA's actions. They tend to hold their releases until they have something truly exciting to show, which is fundamentally different from NASA's general policy of immediate publication of even raw data...quality vs. quantity, it seems.

EDIT: Hey, I just became a "senior"...post 1000! smile.gif


I believe that most of the people has just bad will towards ESA...
ESA is developing a consistent, objective, very well conducted space exploration program and things will only get better after the Cosmic Vision presentations...

Of course I would like to see more images but knowing that scientist are working hard paving our way Onward just erases my common citizen's will for instant consumption images...
I'm no scientist, I'm not a space educated person. I just want the people with the formation to do so to take us there.
One more thing, ESA is developing a lot of studies to make space exploration a ctiizen's benefit activity...
Everyone will have a place There and not only on a internet forum.
That worths my 1,5€ a year...
Where can I make an additional donation?...
This might sound provoking but I can more easily imagine, under ESA's policy, an European on Mars than an American... rolleyes.gif

Lyricism is nice but real work is better.

Posted by: djellison Mar 3 2007, 07:50 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Mar 3 2007, 07:41 PM) *
I believe that most of the people has just bad will towards ESA...


Read what I've written. Read what other people have written. There is universal kudos and credit toward the achievments of ESA...or at lteast, towards the achievments they are prepared to tell us about. How's VEX doing by the way?

This is all about how they share those achievments, how much information they share with people, how much scientific data they release and when they release it.

WHERE IS THE SMART 1 DATA?

huh?

Where?

That's not bad will - that's something I was promised would be happening "in a few weeks" last October.

Do you find that acceptable? Do you think the level of public awareness of VEX is acceptable? Do you think the 1/6th of the CIVA images, one sequence from OSIRIS plus a tiny crop of another and NOTHING from Alice or Virtis is the best they can do for the Mars flyby?

For someone clearly so passionate about space exploration as yourself - it genuinely defies all understanding that you would consider ESA to be doing a good job of outreach and data release. Genuinely, I can not understand where you are coming from. It's like your speaking about a parallel universe where things are the opposite of what they are here. Is there some secret ESA website that only you know about where 10,000 Smart 1 images and a swathe of VEX results have been release or something?

QUOTE
to take us there.


They're going - but with outreach and data releases like they are now, they're leaving the rest of us very much behind.

Doug

Posted by: mcaplinger Mar 3 2007, 08:22 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 3 2007, 11:50 AM) *
Do you think ... NOTHING from Alice or Virtis is the best they can do for the Mars flyby?

Since Alice is a US-provided instrument, I'd have thought that if the PI (Alan Stern) wanted to release some data he could do so without ESA's involvement, but I don't know exactly how that relationship works. I would guess that the Alice team is subject to the same PDS data archiving timetable that instrument teams on a NASA mission would be.

I don't know what the obligation of ESA science teams to release data to ESA member states and their citizens is; as a US citizen, I can expect nothing at all from ESA.

Posted by: peter59 Mar 3 2007, 08:54 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Mar 3 2007, 05:03 PM) *
In a way, I understand ESA's actions. They tend to hold their releases until they have something truly exciting to show, which is fundamentally different from NASA's general policy of immediate publication of even raw data...quality vs. quantity, it seems.


Please give me links for these "high quality" ESA's images.

Posted by: mcaplinger Mar 3 2007, 09:10 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Mar 3 2007, 08:03 AM) *
In a way, I understand ESA's actions. They tend to hold their releases until they have something truly exciting to show, which is fundamentally different from NASA's general policy of immediate publication of even raw data...

Well, I wouldn't agree with your assessment of ESA, but that said,
NASA doesn't have a "general policy of immediate publication of even raw data". Some instrument teams have done this and some haven't, but no planetary mission team that I know of is under any contractual obligation to release data on any timescale other than the PDS archiving schedule; typically six months. My understanding is that researchers on non-planetary missions (e.g., HST) have even longer to release data.

Posted by: ustrax Mar 3 2007, 09:34 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 3 2007, 07:50 PM) *
For someone clearly so passionate about space exploration as yourself - it genuinely defies all understanding that you would consider ESA to be doing a good job of outreach and data release. Genuinely, I can not understand where you are coming from. It's like your speaking about a parallel universe where things are the opposite of what they are here. Is there some secret ESA website that only you know about where 10,000 Smart 1 images and a swathe of VEX results have been release or something?
They're going - but with outreach and data releases like they are now, they're leaving the rest of us very much behind.

Doug


Doug, as you well put it I'm a space exploration passionate not a data release one.
I'm coming from a place where I trust (...call it faith...) the work being developed by European scientists.
Maybe I'm not as demanding as you are but I pay the same so we're in the same ground...
Ask your neighbours what they expect to see from Rosetta...
Where can we get from their answers?
Do they give a damn about the mission or do they trust the people conducting it?
Doug...you have all the right to get annoyed by not seing the pretty images but I, as European, am proud and really, REALLY optimistic regarding ESA's future, step by step, the European Space Agency has achieved goals that we're supposed to be failures.
We have spacecrafts on Venus, Mars, towards a comet, looking out for Earth's sake, we're on the surface of Titan, on the way to Mercury, unravelling Universe's secret's, looking at the Sun for 15 years, a respectable Astronaut's corps...It's a long term policy. For which I'm pleased to contribute.
It's an adventure.
All of this in less than 30 years...

Posted by: nprev Mar 3 2007, 10:41 PM

Just to clarify...I meant that I sort of understand ESA's apparent policy...not that I agree with it! wink.gif

Posted by: djellison Mar 3 2007, 11:08 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Mar 3 2007, 09:34 PM) *
Ask your neighbours what they expect to see from Rosetta...


Rowhat?

90%+ of Europeans will go "What?...what's Rosetta?"

It's an adveture for the people involved, but they are not involving anyone else. They should, they must, and to date, they are not.

We're covering the same ground again and again, but I will repeat it. I'm proud of what ESA is doing, I'm ashamed of how it's keeping people informed about it.

Doug

Posted by: nprev Mar 3 2007, 11:36 PM

The only thing I can suggest would be to mount a "letter-writing" (e-mails, actually) campaign to ESA demanding more open access to (and timely release of) mission products. Understand that public awareness of space in Europe is probably almost as low as it is here in the US, but pressure like that is probably the only way to help ESA see the light.

Perhaps TPS could help... they have a lot of experience with things like this in the political domain, anyhow.

Posted by: Stu Mar 4 2007, 12:44 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Mar 3 2007, 11:36 PM) *
The only thing I can suggest would be to mount a "letter-writing" (e-mails, actually)


I wrote (very constructively and diplomatically) to David Southwood as I said I would... 5 days ago... nothing back.

Imagine my shock.

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 4 2007, 01:54 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Mar 3 2007, 10:03 AM) *
EDIT: Hey, I just became a "senior"...post 1000! smile.gif

Welcome to the club! You'll now start receiving mailings from AARP once a month... biggrin.gif

-the other Doug

Posted by: nprev Mar 4 2007, 02:15 AM

Eh? Speak up, sonny! biggrin.gif

Completely OT here, but congrats to Stu on his new position as poet laureate...most deserved! smile.gif

Anyhow...Onesies & twosies in letter-writing campaigns usually do disappear down the rabbit hole. Perhaps an online petition might be effective...

Posted by: Stu Mar 4 2007, 05:35 PM

Thanks nprev, I'll do my best to show myself worthy of the honour... smile.gif

Ustrax, I know where you're coming from on this. Like you - and Doug, and others here - I am very proud of the European space program and all it has achieved. You listed very good examples of its accomplishments in your posting, that no-one here would disagree with.

But the fact is that right now, this very minute, as you sit here reading this and as I sit here typing it, exiled on a hard drive on an ESA computer somewhere are images taken during ROSETTA's fly-by that should, by now, have been released into the public domain but, for some reason, are just sitting there, in the dark, listening to water drip from the dungeon walls, wondering why they were taken in the first place if no-one was going to bother to look at them. And that's wrong, just wrong. Actually, not only is it wrong, it's b****y stupid, for the following reasons, at least some of, if not all of which, should concern you as both a proud European and a member of the space exploration advocate community.

1. They spent YOUR hard-earned money designing, building, launching and operating Rosetta, getting it to Mars to take those pictures. Now, you might not begrudge them that money, fair enough, but are you happy to see it wasted or, worse, just taken for granted? If you don't get something tangible back from it, then it's *this* close to being... well... a tax... sad.gif

2. At a time when space exploration budgets are under strain, and ESA faces a very serious challenge in securing the money necessary to meet its long term plans and goals, it needs all the friends - political and public - it can get. One way of keeping the friends it already has, and making new friends, is to show everyone - show the world - what it can accomplish, given the appropriate funding and support. They need to be coming out into the political and public arenas guns blazing, bragging about what they've done, showing off, and driving home the point that, given more resources, more money, they could achieve even more. Now, if that was YOUR job, raising that profile internationally, in political and public circles, and you had jaw-dropping images in your posession that would be guaranteed to be splashed across the pages of newspapers not just across Europe but across the world, and would be featured on web sites within an hour of them being released, would you 1) sit on them, keeping them locked up in that hard drive dungeon, or 2) release them with a deafening fanfare and bask in the goodwill and glory that would follow?

3. ESA's development and indeed survival will depend, like NASA's has done, on succesful and effective Outreach. People have it rammed down their throats by the media, day in and day out, about how much space exploration costs, about what else could be done with the money. And as much as it sticks in the throats of those people who have little time for pretty pictures and prefer to concentrate on hard science instead - the graphs, charts and measurements - it's the pretty pictures that grab people's attention and make them feel part of the whole space exploration "adventure", and have a chance of convincing them that space exploration actually is a good use of their wages. People need educating about the value of space exploration, about how it aids the development of terrestrial technology, how it drives industry and research, how it helps us understand how Earth "works" etc etc etc. And as worthy as plasma measurements and wind speed recordings etc are, they're no substitute for a jaw-dropping picture of a great gaping maw of a crater on Mars taken by a plucky little rover, or a portait of immense towers of gas and dust taken by a space telescope.

So, going back to my original point... right now, this very minute, ESA has pictures in its possession that could address all three of those issues...



That they haven't released them yet is disappointing at best, and ridiculously foolish at worst.

I have no bad will towards ESA, far from it; I know from the email correspondence I enjoy with many ESA scientists that they are hard working, dedicated and enthusiastic people. But there is a serious problem somewhere that needs addressing. And until it is, no matter what it achieves scientifically, ESA is going to come across as a second rate outfit compared to NASA, simply because no-one will KNOW WHAT IT DOES.

The question is, how can we help them tackle this problem...? huh.gif

Posted by: nprev Mar 4 2007, 06:07 PM

It's pretty tough to change the culture of an organization, and from what I can gather ESA's PR efforts are probably a direct function of the science team's willingness to release data for public consumption. I suspect that they (the science teams) feel that outreach is a diversion from their research efforts, which probably have very fixed budgets & thereby limited labor hours. Therefore, the pressure point is ESA senior management, since only they can directly influence the science teams; moreover, the managers are probably more aware of the importance of PR for acquiring & maintaining project funding.

I suggest starting an online petition on some site like http://www.petitiononline.com/petition.html & delivering the results to the appropriate office at ESA. Numbers speak-loudly. If Emily or another TPS insider could also publicize the effort this could significantly increase the number of signatures.

FWIW, it would be entirely appropriate in my opinion to encourage non-European spaceflight enthusiasts to support this cause. The results of space exploration are a gift and a boon to all mankind, regardless of who's directly paying the bill.

Posted by: djellison Mar 4 2007, 07:10 PM

I'm having a serious think about this one...I want to speak to some people, consider something a bit more proactive than a petition or mass emailing. I'll get back to you smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: The Messenger Mar 4 2007, 09:50 PM

QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 3 2007, 01:22 PM) *
Since Alice is a US-provided instrument, I'd have thought that if the PI (Alan Stern) wanted to release some data he could do so without ESA's involvement, but I don't know exactly how that relationship works. I would guess that the Alice team is subject to the same PDS data archiving timetable that instrument teams on a NASA mission would be.

I don't know what the obligation of ESA science teams to release data to ESA member states and their citizens is; as a US citizen, I can expect nothing at all from ESA.

Actually you can, and you should.

If you read through the science agreements on Huygens - agreements made with NASA and imposed upon all the instrument teams, there was a general embargo on the data until May or June of 2006. At this time a general release of all of the data was contractually required. It didn't happen. First it was announced the delay would be until July, Then August, then there was a partial release in September...then nothing.

NASA provided a great deal of support on this mission, and provides communication support on virtually all ESA missions, and this usually includes both periods and limits on data embargos. These should be respected - and they are contractually required.

My US representative is aware US scientists do not have access to the data that is promised in contractual agreements. This is a reasonable place to put pressure: Live up to the contracts.

Posted by: djellison Mar 4 2007, 09:57 PM

Just for a bit of a laugh...

Because I registered with the ESA Press Office in Paris for the Rosetta event...I now recieve, typically two a week, printed copies of all their press releases, by post.

Now - ignoring the madness of not just emailing these things out, the cost alone must be astronomical, I've had four so far, postage to the UK from Paris, etc etc - couple of Euros probably. If they keep up this rate it'll be something like 40 Euros a year. Multiply that by the number of press they've probably got registered....you've got a new outreach position you could pay for.

All a bit old school really.

Doug

Posted by: nprev Mar 4 2007, 10:02 PM

Old-school indeed, and perhaps very illuminating. Beginning to think that the ESA PR department consists of about three people (maybe) operating under policies & procedures that were developed circa 1981 or earlier...certainly not enough resources available to cope with the current mission tempo, apparently.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 4 2007, 10:09 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 4 2007, 01:57 PM) *
the cost alone must be astronomical

There's a headline. ESA Facing Astronomical Costs.

Posted by: djellison Mar 4 2007, 10:11 PM

Oh - just to make it a bit more idiotic, in each case, I've opened it, read the first line, and thrown it away because I know I read the full text about 3, 4 days earlier on the web.

Doug

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 4 2007, 10:21 PM

I work in the business and we actually snicker and ridicule when someone asks for a press release to be faxed these days.

Posted by: nprev Mar 5 2007, 12:20 AM

Hey, Dan. This is probably way too broad a question, but how do you pros conduct marketing/public outreach? Any innovative methods that ESA could employ from your experience?

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 5 2007, 12:27 AM

That's a whole college course.

I think for now ESA needs to recruit known "science" types or or famous intellectuals to write editorials and columns touting their efforts and successes. Maybe even well known Americans, like retired astronauts, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs -- people like that the public can connect with.

Posted by: mcaplinger Mar 5 2007, 01:09 AM

QUOTE (The Messenger @ Mar 4 2007, 01:50 PM) *
If you read through the science agreements on Huygens - agreements made with NASA and imposed upon all the instrument teams, there was a general embargo on the data until May or June of 2006. At this time a general release of all of the data was contractually required. It didn't happen. First it was announced the delay would be until July, Then August, then there was a partial release in September...then nothing.

According to the page at http://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/data_and_services/atmospheres_data/Huygens/Huygens.html
the data were delivered to PDS in July 2006 but PDS has not yet validated it. So it would seem that the delay may be due to PDS and not to the instrument teams or ESA.

Posted by: nprev Mar 5 2007, 01:09 AM

Good idea, Dan. Sounds like Sir Patrick Moore might be the ideal spokesman. Based on what I've heard, he's an icon throughout most of Europe. Question is, how do you convince ESA that they need to enlist him (uh, and by the way, release some <clinking> images?)

Sorry...bit of frustration, there. ESA reminds me of Sandia or Livermore National Laboratories in many ways here in the US. They do some incredible work, and although much of it is highly classified that which isn't is rarely publicized anywhere near the degree that it should be. True, they really don't need a lot of PR to stay afloat due to their criticality...but ESA sure does, and they just don't get it.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 5 2007, 01:35 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Mar 4 2007, 05:09 PM) *
ESA reminds me of Sandia or Livermore National Laboratories

My next door neighbor works for Livermore. (The 20-something kid commutes 2 hours each way!) He can't even tell me what department he works in.

Posted by: djellison Mar 5 2007, 06:56 AM

QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 5 2007, 01:09 AM) *
the data were delivered to PDS in July 2006


http://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/data_and_services/atmospheres_data/Huygens/DISR.html

http://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/data_and_services/atmospheres_data/Huygens/SSP.html

Everything else is there - but these two remain MIA.

Personally - with a one-off dataset like Huygens, I don't moind a delay - but I do mind not being told when it will actually be available and what the problem is.

Doug

Posted by: mcaplinger Mar 5 2007, 07:35 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 4 2007, 10:56 PM) *
Everything else is there - but these two remain MIA.

Again, I can't tell if the data have not been delivered to PDS or if they have been and the datasets are still stuck in the review process. In any event, DISR is a mostly-US experiment so blaming ESA for any lack of data release doesn't seem appropriate to me.

Posted by: ugordan Mar 5 2007, 09:49 AM

The fact DISR is an U.S. instrument seems to be forgotten all too often IMHO.

Posted by: ynyralmaen Mar 5 2007, 11:25 AM

There are two issues being discussed here - ESA's self-promotion through its PR efforts, and data releases.

Referring to the former, as I alluded to in a http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=3232&view=findpost&p=69624, the national funding agencies that fund the instruments that ESA flies do a lot of the publicity work themselves, with varying degrees of success. e.g. in the UK, it's http://www.pparc.ac.uk (which incidentally will be no more in three weeks' time when it morphs into http://www.stfc.ac.uk/), Germany it's usually DLR, etc.

Maybe there's some fundamental problem here, with some of the national bodies leaving all the publicity work to ESA, while ESA is leaving some of the work to the national bodies. I'm not making excuses for the very unsatisfactory state of the publicity machine(s) at the moment, just trying to figure out why it's like this.

I think there may also be a problem with the media themelves... As much of space news is, quite naturally, driven by US efforts, the European media tend to follow the lead of those in the US, and may often ignore sources of news much closer to home.

Not a brilliant example, but Sky News on this side of the pond was showing wide-field pictures of this last weekend's lunar eclipse courtesy of NASA TV. I guess it was a cost-free, copright-free feed, but it seemed a little odd to me when they seem to have dozens of camera teams, any one of which could have produced similar quality views, weather permitting (as it did in most places).

Posted by: hendric Mar 5 2007, 02:54 PM

Hey Doug, maybe you can work on getting ESA to release Raw images on the web. If they can't find the money/people to do press releases, I'm sure the wizards here can do something with them. Would be a great pro-am collaboration opportunity. Of course, this would mean they find money/people to setup the Raw image releases...Oh well, while I'm wishing, I'd like a Galileo II, and a pony. wink.gif

Posted by: ynyralmaen Mar 5 2007, 03:27 PM

QUOTE (hendric @ Mar 5 2007, 03:54 PM) *
Hey Doug, maybe you can work on getting ESA to release Raw images on the web. ...

I think that might be tricky - the data aren't actually "owned" by ESA; for each instrument, I think it's the PIs plus the relevant national funding agency that would probably decide whether they could, or be happy to do that. In the case of visible light images from Rosetta, Mars Express, and Venus Express, in terms of funding it probably all falls to DLR in Germany. I'm not sure if other remote sensing instruments can produce readily-interpretable "raw" data.

That pony you mentioned might be less of a challenge.

If you're thinking along the lines of a daily raw image release, remember that it's the MERs that broke the mould - before them, and Cassini, everyone used to have to wait; now we've all, arguably, been spoilt. Personally, I think a happy medium would be a single daily image, e.g. the setups for NEAR and MGS.

Posted by: lyford Mar 5 2007, 04:36 PM

Seems that MEX and VEX missions are being extended to May 2009. So that's what, 8 more pictures???? smile.gif

(I kid the good folks at ESA because I love.)

And very good points, ynyralmaen.

Posted by: Littlebit Mar 5 2007, 05:34 PM

[s]

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 4 2007, 11:56 PM) *
http://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/data_and_services/atmospheres_data/Huygens/DISR.html

http://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/data_and_services/atmospheres_data/Huygens/SSP.html

Everything else is there - but these two remain MIA.

Personally - with a one-off dataset like Huygens, I don't moind a delay - but I do mind not being told when it will actually be available and what the problem is.

Doug

...well, sort of:

If you try to follow the link to the DTWG data volume you end up here:

QUOTE
Getting the Data You Want


Click on the below link to access the Huygens/DTWG data volume:


[b]LINK WILL NOT BE ACTIVATED UNTIL AFTER AUGUST 2, 2006.[b]


Which was quite a while ago in all of the dimensions of the universe I am aware of.

There is also an interesting disclaimer in the hpacp data:

http://atmos.nmsu.edu/PDS/data/hpacp_0001/AAREADME.TXT

QUOTE
Warnings: It should be pointed out that the reconstruction of descent trajectory of the Huygens probe is not coherent with the altitude profile retrieved from the Huygens radar altimeter.

Different approaches/methods for descent trajectory reconstruction resulted in altitude and velocity profiles that show discrepancy, not consistent with uncertainty range relevant to models and measurements.
The reason for this discrepancy is at present still under investigation.

Results of future analysis could imply the need to reconsolidate the trajectory.

This is curious, because the Nature article contained both altimeter and reconstructed trajectory data; and I am not aware of any public comments about these descrepancies - other than this one.

In a way, this explains why release of some of the data is still pending, but what is it about the data that is causing the confusion and the holdup?

Posted by: Stu Mar 5 2007, 05:55 PM

Hmmm... maybe the pictures are being held back for the meeting mentioned in http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2007/03/rosetta-050307-update-with-missions.html...

Posted by: djellison Mar 5 2007, 05:58 PM

QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 5 2007, 07:35 AM) *
blaming ESA for any lack of data release doesn't seem appropriate to me.


QUOTE
I don't moind a delay


Just some updated info would be nice.

As for raw image release, going after MER like stuff would be like trying to climb Everest when ESA can't get over a speed-bump and you only want to climb Ben Nevis to be happy. Baby steps first.

Doug

Posted by: Stu Mar 11 2007, 11:38 PM

Two weeks since the Rosetta Mars fly-by and still no sign of the crescent Mars images we were promised.

Just saying.

Posted by: Sunspot Mar 12 2007, 06:56 PM

The few images the were released were for the media, who have a 12 hour attention span. As the media are no longer interested in the story there is no need for ESA to release images.

Posted by: djellison Mar 12 2007, 07:32 PM

I had a press pass on the night. I'm interested smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: Stu Mar 12 2007, 07:59 PM

My "Press pass" is the money I pay into ESA's coffers from my wages. I don't ask for much, don't want to sit in on meetings, or be sent thousand page reports or technical papers, or vote on spending and funding... but I (clink clink) well want to see the pictures I've contributed to financially after they've been taken. Personally I don't think that's unreasonable.

ESA's behaving like a photographer that was paid - well- in advance for photographing a wedding, then turned up with a flashy camera, spent hours taking pics, then only handed over a handful of prints instead of the album he promised.

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 13 2007, 03:18 PM

Hmmm... let me try and say this in an acceptable way, since I really do believe that this is a factor in what we're seeing with ESA's release policies (and with the entire, broken publish-or-perish system that exists in nearly every scientific research field).

The basic principle seems to be that, if you are doing any kind of research, your entire professional career depends on how much you can publish about your work in peer-reviewed journals. Correct?

This places enormous pressure on researchers to keep their pre-published data secret, lest their published works have less than the positive impact on their careers than they wish. It also puts forth a tremendous temptation to use *only* the data that supports the conclusions you want to publish.

This affects the process all the way up and down the line, creating a blindered, narrow-focused view on only that data a researcher *believes* he/she is going to see. The data he/she *wants* to see.

It not only affects the process of selecting which data you will use when you publish, it affects the very instruments you design and use to collect that data. (For example, if you're studying fields and particles and you expect to see "interesting" results in only certain wavelengths or energy ranges, you design your instruments to give you data in only those wavelengths and ranges. Allowing possible *crucial* data to slip past you unobserved.)

Now, to a certain extent, this is unavoidable. Instruments can't do all things for all people, and on space probes in particular, mass is a huge factor. You often have to decide what types of data you will collect before you can even propose a mission, and so you have to do a lot of "data triage" even before you start bending metal. But it can blind you to things you really need to know.

However, the broken portion of all of this is that you tend to produce researchers who are so narrowly focused on proving one specific hypothesis that they ignore data which tends to disprove it. At the very least, you produce an environment where there is a strong *temptation* to ignore such data.

That means that, unless you control the raw data and allow only yourself and your immediate confederates to see it, someone else might *dispute* your conclusions. And then your career doesn't benefit from the work you've done (or at least you truly believe that will be the result).

The people associated with the MER and Cassini missions have taken a very brave and bold step, to allow people to see raw data as it's collected. They're depending on the NASA culture to protect their careers, I think -- anyone who can become a PI for NASA has *already* achieved enough distinction within their field that they can afford to conduct their research more publicly, and they can afford to lose the option of ignoring data that doesn't support their pet theories. (And even then, some NASA PIs have had the system so ingrained in them that they still try very hard to keep their pre-published data as secret as possible.)

Perhaps that's what needs to change in the process, as it works throughout all fields of scientific research -- make the course of one's career *independent* of finding data that punctures one's pet theories. At the very least, it would eliminate the pressure on researchers to keep their raw data secret and the temptation to ignore data that doesn't support their own theories.

Until that happens, unless there is some other factor that will protect a researcher's perceived career path (like the distinction involved in being a NASA PI), I doubt any of us will see any significant reform in the process any time in our lifetimes.

-the other Doug

Posted by: helvick Mar 13 2007, 06:01 PM

QUOTE
The people associated with the MER and Cassini missions have taken a very brave and bold step, to allow people to see raw data as it's collected.

This is only true for image data for the most part and even then the automatically published data isn't truly raw and direct from the image sensors as in both cases it is automatically contrast stretched before being exposed to the unwashed masses.
I'm not complaining at all as this approach is a great balance between providing the public and amateur enthusiast with the one thing they want most of all - pretty pictures delivered almost "live" - without truly risking much in the way of leaking any ground breaking revelations or discoveries. It is also worth while noting that the data that is at the root of almost all of the MER's most fundamental discoveries (e.g. the APXS\Mossbauer\MiniTES) is never released early or automatically and the same seems to apply to the non image Cassini data.

Posted by: Floyd Mar 13 2007, 07:46 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 13 2007, 11:18 AM) *
Hmmm... let me try and say this in an acceptable way, since I really do believe that this is a factor in what we're seeing with ESA's release policies (and with the entire, broken publish-or-perish system that exists in nearly every scientific research field).

The basic principle seems to be that, if you are doing any kind of research, your entire professional career depends on how much you can publish about your work in peer-reviewed journals. Correct?



Yes, but... I am a molecular microbiologist. I sequence the DNA of bacteria that can cause human diseases. During the course of the human DNA project, scientists and funding agencies (NIH, Welcome Trust, etc.) got together and decided that scientists should not sit on their sequence data. They established a rule that all sequence data has to be put in a public repository (GenBank) within about 1 week of generation. The people who generate the data usually publish first, but anyone is free to use the data and publish their own scientific paper. The loss to the individual scientist was deemed less important than having the data freely available to the scientific community. This decree has now been extended by NIH to projects they fund on the genomes of microorganisms. So I have an obligation to release my sequencing data immediately. This isn’t releasing compressed files to enthusiasts, this is releasing everything for anyone (any scientist) to run with.
So there is precedent for forcing data release and opening it up for competitive scientific analysis.

Floyd Dewhirst
Department of Molecular Genetics
The Forsyth Institute

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 13 2007, 07:55 PM

QUOTE (helvick @ Mar 13 2007, 01:01 PM) *
This is only true for image data for the most part and even then the automatically published data isn't truly raw and direct from the image sensors as in both cases it is automatically contrast stretched before being exposed to the unwashed masses.
I'm not complaining at all as this approach is a great balance between providing the public and amateur enthusiast with the one thing they want most of all - pretty pictures delivered almost "live" - without truly risking much in the way of leaking any ground breaking revelations or discoveries. It is also worth while noting that the data that is at the root of almost all of the MER's most fundamental discoveries (e.g. the APXS\Mossbauer\MiniTES) is never released early or automatically and the same seems to apply to the non image Cassini data.

All very true. The reason for that, I think, is that the non-imaging data *does* require interpretation by the professionals for us non-professionals to be able to make any sense of. Just looking at APXS or Mossbauer raw results would be pretty much like trying to read Greek, for me. Someone would have to interpret what those results mean for them to be meaningful to me, and I *do* understand that this is a process that takes some time.

However, as I said, cameras are non-specific data gathering instruments (leaving aside for the moment the use of multiple wavelengths and analyzing wavelength differences for compositional clues). They provide images that non-professionals can view and evaluate -- and as we've seen on this forum, even non-professionals can occasionally make very good and interesting observations. Even when only working with contrast-enhanced and compressed images.

That's why, IMHO, it's relatively important (and more rewarding) to have as many eyes as possible looking at every image returned from every spacecraft we send out into the Solar System.

If anyone has any doubts as to what can happen when you expose as many people as possible to these images, just re-read Steve Squyre's preface to Roving Mars. After spending a *day* in Cornell's Mars Room and reviewing everything they had of the Viking lander images, the man became committed to a life course that delivered to all Mankind the accomplishments of Spirit and Opportunity.

How many children and young adults would become "hooked" on Mars or Venus if ESA's images were published as soon as they arrived? And how many of them might be the ones to lead the next major efforts to explore those planets?

How much are we, as a race, losing because the Wizards want to keep their secrets close to their vests...?

-the other Doug

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 13 2007, 08:06 PM

QUOTE (Floyd @ Mar 13 2007, 02:46 PM) *
...there is precedent for forcing data release and opening it up for competitive scientific analysis.

That's actually a positive thing, I think -- but has there been any allowance made to protect the careers of the researchers from being derailed because they can't get their work published before someone else runs with it?

I'm just afraid that forced release will simply drive bright and able researchers away from those fields. We need some system that allows everyone to shine and gives everyone due credit while allowing everyone to share what they learn, quickly and completely.

Like all pundits, I know where the destination is, and what it looks like. Where the road is, and how to navigate it, I haven't a clue... *sigh*...

-the other Doug

Posted by: Stu Mar 13 2007, 08:24 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 13 2007, 07:55 PM) *
After spending a *day* in Cornell's Mars Room and reviewing everything they had of the Viking lander images, the man became committed to a life course that delivered to all Mankind the accomplishments of Spirit and Opportunity.

How many children and young adults would become "hooked" on Mars or Venus if ESA's images were published as soon as they arrived? And how many of them might be the ones to lead the next major efforts to explore those planets?


THANK YOU!!!! rolleyes.gif Finally someone hits the nail on the head. It's not just about us, it's about the "next us". Every time I give a talk in a school I try fan the flames of the kids' interest in the hope that I'll inspire one of them to go grab a book off a shelf and learn a bit more after I've gone. I've been giving school talks for (oh my god!!!) almost 20 years now, must have talked to many thousands of kids in that time, and hopefully some of them have gone on to study and work in science, maybe even space exploration, I don't know. But it's such a visual topic, space exploration, that it's absolutely essential to have the latest pics to show the kids, or they won't believe that space exploration is going on NOW, and wasn't all finished in the days of Apollo, as they're taught in history, I can't stress that enough.

As for Steve S being inspired by those Viking images, the same happened to me, only in my case the images were in a paint-stained copy of NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC tossed into a corner of my art class and forgotten about until an inquisitive 16yr old found it and... um... sneaked it home to look at it in private. I've still got it, over there on the "Mars" shelf of my bookcase. I guess it's why I'm here on UMSF.

Somewhere, out there right now, I guarantee you, is a kid, maybe in the UK, maybe in France, or Germany, or China, or on some tiny Pacific island, surfing the net, looking for pictures of Mars because they have to write about it for their science homework... they've heard that a probe flew past Mars recently and took some very cool pics of it... If the multiverse theory is correct, then in one universe that kid just clicked on an image link labelled "Mars as seen by Rosetta as it headed back into space" and their screen lit up with an image of a crescent Mars, the sunlit side over-exposed and glaring, but still beautiful, beautiful enough to make the kid think "Hmmm... interesting..." and click on NEXT to see more images of Mars, again and again until their homework is forgotten and they're looking at Mars because it's actually interesting... the seed is planted, they're now "into space" and go on to get more deeply involved in it... becoming, well, who can tell..?

Meanwhile, in this 'verse, the kid looks for those "very cool pics"... and looks... and looks...

But they're not there.

Ah, homework can wait. Time to plug in the games console...

sad.gif

Posted by: djellison Mar 13 2007, 08:30 PM

QUOTE (Stu @ Mar 13 2007, 08:24 PM) *
Somewhere, out there right now, I guarantee you, is a kid, maybe in the UK, maybe in France, or Germany, or China, or on some tiny Pacific island, surfing the net, looking for pictures of Mars because they have to write about it for their science homework...


I hope they can do Jupiter instead. NH is pulling a blinder with the flyby and the way their getting involved with the public - it's an inspiration, and a gold mark standard.

Doug

Posted by: Juramike Mar 13 2007, 08:40 PM

Yup. I remember spending a day home from school as the Voyager pics of Jupiter's moons came down on a public access channel. Many years later, I still remember that day vividly. The idea of being "there live" as discoveries are made is powerful.

I would propose that all the data be released as soon as acquired. Those scientists that are pursuing that particular research topic should be able to easily out-compete the rest based on their prior experience in the area. And if they are not comfortable with the competition, then we must realize that science is continual process of challenge, not complacency. The more data freely available, the more ideas are generated, the more scientists are created, the faster science advances. Think "open source code" vs. proprietary software.

-Mike

Posted by: Stu Mar 13 2007, 08:57 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 13 2007, 08:30 PM) *
I hope they can do Jupiter instead.
Doug


Sadly not... as I understand it, they spent the rest of the night on their game console, fell asleep, then got detention the next day for not doing their homework. In detention they had to sit next to a gang member, fell under their spell, joined their gang, skipped more and more school... got into fights and trouble with the police... started doing drugs... held up a bank... got caught and thrown into jail, killed a guy in there in a fight over a bowl of soup and their whole life was wasted...

... and it was all ESA's fault!

I hope they're satisfied!!! mad.gif tongue.gif

Posted by: djellison Mar 13 2007, 09:14 PM

Can't deny the logic.

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 13 2007, 09:20 PM

QUOTE (Juramike @ Mar 13 2007, 03:40 PM) *
Yup. I remember spending a day home from school as the Voyager pics of Jupiter's moons came down on a public access channel. Many years later, I still remember that day vividly. The idea of being "there live" as discoveries are made is powerful.

I remember, in the magical summer of 1969 when humans were just *steps* away from the stars, that less than a month after the first manned lunar landing, the TV networks carried the arrival of Mars pictures from Mariners 6 and 7. Live.

We watched images build up, line by vertical line, over the course of minutes. As they were received at JPL, they were flashed across our TV screens.

Even before that, I remember the very first time any TV broadcast ever used (or could use) the title overlay "Live from the Moon" on a live news broadcast. It was the flight of Ranger IX. At the age of nine I was able to watch the Moon swell from image to image, as Ranger executed its suicide dive into Alphonsus Crater.

Oh, yes -- NASA has a long history of sharing the results of their planetary missions, live and (when possible) in color. (When not, in glorious black and white... wink.gif )

I was very, very interested in Project Mercury, it's true. But I can date my extreme fascination with extraterrestrial geology to that astonished nine-year-old, watching the lunar surface rushing up at me and realizing that it was happening RIGHT NOW! (Well, OK, 1.3 seconds ago... smile.gif )

-the other Doug

Posted by: tedstryk Mar 15 2007, 11:01 AM

Perhaps this thread should be retitled. I don't know if the word "effort" belongs anywhere near "ESA" and "press" without the words "lack of" somewhere near by. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Stu Mar 15 2007, 03:44 PM

Mars, as seen by 7yd old "Sam" from one of the school classes I talked to recently...



I have several envelopes full of "thank you" letters and cards and pictures like this, from several hundred different kids. If they didn't mean so much to me I'd bundle them up send them to ESA, in the hope that someone there looked at them and actually realised how important outreach and educational efforts are.

'Cos we need to do something, I really believe that.

Posted by: ustrax Mar 15 2007, 04:37 PM

Hey Stu, can "Sam" provide an anaglyph? wink.gif

'Cos we need to do something, I really believe that.

Yes, http://www.esa.int/esaKIDSen/...

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Astrolab/SEMBVOSMTWE_0.html
http://esamultimedia.esa.int/multimedia/esoc/iww/iww_student_art.html

Posted by: The Messenger Mar 27 2007, 05:23 AM

QUOTE (Venus Express status report)
NASA has been very helpful in this regard; ESA isn't charged for the time, but on the other hand we get whatever time is left over. We put in requests; if no one else needs that antenna at that time, they give it to us. We are always in a position to get bumped, but it hasn't happened yet.

Perhaps one looking for data from the Venus Express should file a freedom of information request from NASA. If NASA is providing free down links to the ESA, the information downlinked should be freely available to the US public...yes/no?

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 27 2007, 05:59 AM

QUOTE (The Messenger @ Mar 26 2007, 09:23 PM) *
Perhaps one looking for data from the Venus Express should file a freedom of information request from NASA. If NASA is providing free down links to the ESA, the information downlinked should be freely available to the US public...yes/no?

No. That's not what the FOIA is for.

Posted by: cndwrld Mar 27 2007, 08:32 AM

Cosmic Vision: now with more PR goodness

ESA is in the process of mapping out their future mission architecture for 2015 - 2025, in a process called Cosmic Vision. One thing that has been changed compared with past efforts is that PR is now included as one of the selection criteria. From their web site, the criteria are:

8. Selection criteria
The proposals will be selected through an evaluation process involving peer review teams and their results scrutinised and endorsed by the Science Programme advisory structure under the SSAC. The following primary selection criteria will be applied:
• Scientific value, i.e. scientific excellence to provide a large potential for discovery and innovation;
• Programmatic validity, i.e. conformity with the themes established by Cosmic Vision (Annex 1) and timeliness of the mission;
• High “science for money” rating, i.e. high scientific return versus required financial investments;
• Timeliness, i.e. relevance of the science goal within the foreseen launch date;
• Level of technology maturity and technical feasibility;
• Cost to ESA with respect to the envelope constraints for Class M and L missions respectively;
• Cost to Member States (including payload, data processing and distribution for M missions…);
• Overall programme risk;
• Communication potential.

In the Annex, this is spelled out a bit more:
Communication and Outreach The communication potential of the mission should be described and the proposed communication-outreach activities, as well as the means to carry them out, should be outlined.
In the case of a collaborative proposal, elaboration of the role of each party in the collaboration is required.

All the stuff can be found at: http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=40794

As I understand it, the PR work has never before been considered as a Selection Criteria before. So if you are seriously looking for progress, I think this is an encouraging sign.

Cheers-

Don

Posted by: Greg Hullender Mar 27 2007, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Mar 26 2007, 10:59 PM) *
No. That's not what the FOIA is for.

Note, however, that Man is distinguished from the lower animals by his ability to misuse tools.

--Greg :-)

Posted by: The Messenger Mar 28 2007, 11:18 PM

I managed to get the ear of my congressman last night and I gave him an earful about...

...restoring space science funding.

Hey, as much as I complain about untimely release of data, I am much, much more concerned about the untimely delay of launches ph34r.gif

Posted by: tedstryk Apr 2 2007, 03:06 PM

I came very close to an April fool's prank, announcing a major release of Rosetta Mars flyby images with some doctored views from Hubble. I changed my mind at the last minute...I thought it would be in poor taste. But I really would like to see more of the approach and receding Osiris and Navcam shots.

Posted by: cndwrld Apr 4 2007, 07:59 AM

ESA ESTEC Communications staff is tripled

Our wonderful communications officer, Monica Talevi, has been working alone for two years. Starting this week, she has been joined by two new full-time assistants.

One hopes that the results of this will become apparent in the near future.

-don

Posted by: Stu Apr 4 2007, 09:13 AM

Thanks Don, that could be very encouraging news. I hope the new people are given the resources, support and encouragement necessary to catch up as much as they need to, and help ESA's considerable successes get the recognition they deserve. I sure would like to see those crescent Mars pictures some time before the next Ice Age begins.

Posted by: djellison Apr 4 2007, 09:35 AM

The 4 subframes of 6 month old VEX images were nice...but truthfully, I had to double check the date to make sure it wasn't ESA doing what Ted thought of smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: ustrax May 30 2007, 10:04 AM

Anyone will be http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMKTG9RR1F_index_0.html?... smile.gif

Posted by: cndwrld May 30 2007, 01:29 PM

Not me. This is for the suits.

Posted by: Stu May 30 2007, 01:37 PM

Well, give all of The Suits a camera each, tell them to photograph the most amazing things they see, then take the cameras off them at the end of the conference and tell them they'll get one picture sent back in the post every few months, and won't get to see some of them at all... see how they like it... wink.gif tongue.gif

(JOKE, okay?!?!? Don't throw me in the stocks! tongue.gif )

Posted by: nprev Jun 2 2007, 04:40 PM

Argh...ESA has suits, too, huh? Well, that explains a lot... rolleyes.gif I spend about half my time at work building Powerpoints to try to explain things to suits instead of actually doing something... mad.gif

Posted by: helvick Jun 2 2007, 06:38 PM

Only half? You're doing OK then. smile.gif

Posted by: nprev Jun 2 2007, 07:05 PM

I'm tryin', man, I'm tryin'... sad.gif tongue.gif

Posted by: Paolo Jun 3 2007, 10:33 AM

I will be at Le Bourget on Friday 22, as a "semi-pro" (i do aerospace stress engineering in my real life). I hope that there will be something "UMSF-oriented" to see (I am placing my bets on the Lavochkin stand to show at least a Fobos-Grunt model).
You can find some images from previous le Bourget airshows on my website:
http://utenti.lycos.it/paoloulivi/galleria.html
http://utenti.lycos.it/paoloulivi/misc.html

Posted by: Tesheiner Jun 4 2007, 08:11 AM

QUOTE (Paolo @ Jun 3 2007, 12:33 PM) *
http://utenti.lycos.it/paoloulivi/misc.html


I've been there on '89 too (and on '93). smile.gif
Now, if I just could find the damn box with those photos of the Buran/Antonov...
Btw, I came the morning *after* the http://proairshow.com/MiG%20Crash%20Seq.htm.

Posted by: djellison Jun 4 2007, 09:06 AM

I was at the RIAT at Fairford in '93 when the Mig 29's crashed ohmy.gif Sounds like a common thing wink.gif

AND - when we flew back from Malaga in October '05 - the Antonov 225 was parked on the stand at East Midlands Airport - taxied straight past it ohmy.gif

Doug

Posted by: Paolo Jun 23 2007, 09:32 PM

A selection of my (mostly space) photos of Le Bourget. Note the tens of pictures I took of the Fobos Grunt and Luna Glob model
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9228922@N03/

Posted by: cndwrld Jun 25 2007, 07:42 AM

Thanks, Paolo. Very interesting. There were some things which I was happy to see had gotten some attention there.

Posted by: peter59 Dec 31 2007, 02:27 PM

"Happy New Year from the Cassini-Huygens Project Team
The members of the Cassini-Huygens Project Team wish you a very happy and prosperous 2008. It will be our pleasure and privilege to share the results of this most exciting mission with you throughout the coming year."

Pleasure and privilege to share the results . These words should be the motto for ESA.
Darmstadt, Darmstadt Do You Read ? Darmstadt, we have a problem.

Posted by: ustrax Jan 7 2008, 01:39 PM

Stu comes to the party and http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2008/01/this-is-week-where-spaceurope-completes.html... tongue.gif

Posted by: Stu Jan 7 2008, 02:14 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Jan 7 2008, 01:39 PM) *
Stu comes to the party and http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2008/01/this-is-week-where-spaceurope-completes.html... tongue.gif


ohmy.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif

I wasn't intending to break any dishes, just have a quiet word with a few people in a corner of the kitchen while someone mopped up sick in the hallway... wink.gif

Posted by: ustrax Jan 7 2008, 02:34 PM

laugh.gif
Don't take that on the negative side...there are dishes that MUST be broken in order to go for some new ones... smile.gif
It is a brilliant article Stu!

Posted by: jasedm Jan 7 2008, 05:07 PM

I think your sentiments are shared by many Europeans Stu - ESA is firmly in the shade in terms of space science 'glasnost'
I'm not sure at all how the budget is spent, but I reckon there are literally hundreds of I.T. students out there with an interest in Space sciences who would work for free to make any images publicly available straight away, in return for the kudos of work experience at ESA.
Perhaps it's more a case of ESA not being properly aware of the thousands and thousands of people who want to see every single pixel of every shuttered image regardless of whether it's a 'wow' picture or not.
My idea would be to get the British Ramblers Association to lobby ESA - there's not a linear millimetre of footpath in the UK that they don't insist on having total access to at all times (just ask Madonna)
biggrin.gif

Posted by: PhilCo126 Jan 7 2008, 05:52 PM

Well, one thing is sure, NASA doesn't have anything compared to ESA's excellent ESA Bulletin ;-)

Posted by: Stu Jan 7 2008, 06:07 PM

QUOTE (PhilCo126 @ Jan 7 2008, 05:52 PM) *
Well, one thing is sure, NASA doesn't have anything compared to ESA's excellent ESA Bulletin ;-)


Absolutely agree, and I give that a lot of praise in the piece. Only fair. smile.gif

Posted by: ustrax Jan 8 2008, 10:26 AM

Hey Stu, were you asking for this? smile.gif

http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2008/01/for-all-of-you-wanting-to-know-what.html

Posted by: cndwrld Jan 8 2008, 01:29 PM

Folks, I am not European. So while a lot of people may agree with you inside Europe, and maybe even inside the agency, pushing from the outside or the bottom can only effect so much. If everyone who posts negative comments about ESA is really interested in getting results, how could some changes actually get made?

As with so many things, the change has to come from a change in attitude at the top. And the people at the top are, quite rightly, effected by political and budget issues.

ESA is controlled by the ESA Council. It is composed of a representative from each member state, and they control the money spigot as well as set goals. If you live in an ESA member state, you can find out who that representative is and attempt to make your voice heard. This is typically someone from the country's space agency or aerospace agency. Finding out the names of the ESA Council members is a bit like finding out the names of the Illuminati. But I'm sure you can do it. And they probably want to hear what their citizens are interested in. One could even provide the contact information to like minded individuals, along with talking points. Maybe you even know of a good forum where such information could be posted. The next council meeting is in November.

It is also possible to write letters to ESA. I imagine the Director General gets a lot of mail, and his office probably likes to hear about what interests people from the various member states. Especially if they are also sending copies of letters that were sent to the council members. Especially the council members from the member states that provide the biggest section of the budget. The ESA headquarters address is on the ESA web site:
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/ESATE4UM5JC_index_0.html

Such people, and organizations, still are driven by physical letters. E-mail, not so much. So if a change is really desired, spend a few minutes and a stamp. If their mail on an issue suddently jumps from zero to 100, they'll notice. And just maybe, once they know there is a desire for a policy change, you'll get the change you want.

Posted by: Stu Sep 28 2008, 03:33 PM

Another sign of ESA's improved and improving Outreach efforts and attempts to connect with the space enthusiast community and the public... smile.gif

Daniel Scuka has just emailed me to let me know that ESA will be blogging the re-entry of the "Jules Verne" ATV from now until, well, whenever it's all over!

Go to:

http://www.esa.int/blog

(or)

http://webservices.esa.int/blog/blog/1

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 28 2008, 04:18 PM

Any idea who on the ground might be able to see this?

Posted by: Stu Sep 28 2008, 04:20 PM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Sep 28 2008, 05:18 PM) *
Any idea who on the ground might be able to see this?


Haven't ben able to find that out... that'd be a good question to email to the blog...

Posted by: imipak Sep 28 2008, 04:48 PM

ISTR reading, around the time JV was undocked, that re-entry would be over the traditional South Pacific spacecraft graveyard. Naturally the area's used because of the very low population density. In that case there won't be many eye witnesses, apart from those in orbit.

Posted by: Stu Sep 28 2008, 04:58 PM

I think I read somewhere that a plane's going up too, to observe the re-entry with special 'scopes and cameras...?

Posted by: dilo Sep 28 2008, 05:32 PM

Great boost for ISS, thanks ATV!


(mosaic based on heavens-above plots).

Posted by: Del Palmer Sep 28 2008, 05:32 PM

Yup, there's a team led by Peter Jenniskens (who regularly does this during meteor showers) going up.

More details here:

http://atv.seti.org/

Posted by: Hungry4info Sep 28 2008, 05:32 PM

QUOTE (Stu @ Sep 28 2008, 10:58 AM) *
I think I read somewhere that a plane's going up too, to observe the re-entry with special 'scopes and cameras...?


Sure enough,
http://atv.seti.org/

Posted by: Stu Sep 29 2008, 05:25 PM

QUOTE (Hungry4info @ Sep 28 2008, 06:32 PM) *
Sure enough,
http://atv.seti.org/


First images up here...

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMSB76EJLF_index_1.html

Nice and quick, well done ESA smile.gif

Posted by: peter59 Sep 30 2008, 10:35 AM

Video showing the destructive re-entry of Jules Verne ATV
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMI696EJLF_index_0.html
ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC !

Posted by: paxdan Sep 30 2008, 11:22 AM

Time for image stabilization perhaps?

Posted by: lyford Dec 13 2008, 11:34 PM

http://sta.estec.esa.int/Space_Trajectory_Analysis/Home.html
"STA project is an original idea of the Technical Directorate of ESA. Born in Aug 2005, it provides a framework in astrodynamics research at University level.
As research software applicable to Academia, a number of Universities support this development by joining ESA in leading the development."



"The STA project allows a strong link among these disciplines by reinforcing the academic community with requirements and needs coming from space agencies and industry real needs and missions."

http://sta.wiki.sourceforge.net/

(ADMINS - Not sure if this is the best thread for this - thought we had a Software forum, but other than the imaging one I can't seem to find it)

Posted by: Andrei Jan 29 2009, 11:26 AM

QUOTE (Stu @ Jan 7 2008, 05:14 PM) *
ohmy.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif

I wasn't intending to break any dishes, just have a quiet word with a few people in a corner of the kitchen while someone mopped up sick in the hallway... wink.gif


Well, it's been a year or so since you posted this...
I have a routine every morning I start my work since, I guess, 2004 or 2005...Check the APOD page, check the MER page, check the Cassini page, check the ESA website, been following daily the Phoenix page and, at least weekly, the MRO page. And since september or october last year, the UMSF page...
But, honestly, I don't remember any news about Rosetta reaching asteroid Steins, or any picture of the asteroid. That would have been something to remember.
Well, I've just searched the news archive and found this: http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM5EZO4KKF_index_0.html
This is from september '08 and it's the last news about Rosetta. And yes...only the artist's impression of Rosetta in the news article, no picture of the asteroid and no follow-up with pictures of the asteroid (allowing them the time to process the images, like they said in the news article).
It seems that 2008 was not the year for a big change of PR for ESA....

Posted by: jamescanvin Jan 29 2009, 12:02 PM

Well you obviously didn't look very hard. rolleyes.gif

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Rosetta/SEMNMYO4KKF_0.html

You must have missed it on APOD the day after the flyby.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080908.html

P.S. You should add the Planetary society blog to your list of daily reading.

http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001637/

And we have a 265 entry thread about the flyby here at UMSF

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=5256

Posted by: Astro0 Jan 29 2009, 12:02 PM

The PR for Rosetta reaching asteroid Steins was, I think, ESA's best efforts to date.
There was a live press conference broadcast on the web and presumably replayed on European TV at some point.
There were images available almost immediately both at the press conference and online.
They did great coverage on the ESA website http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMNMYO4KKF_index_0.html
We covered it on UMSF for anyone not watching the webcast http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=5256&st=105
(Doug and I were practically in a race to see who would hit the 'post' button first with the latest screen captured image).

The coverage was great I thought. IMHO.

Posted by: Andrei Jan 29 2009, 01:01 PM

Oops! My bad.
I've seen it on the Focus on section! Forgot about that unsure.gif ohmy.gif (and I'm only 28).
And I thought at the time that it was a really good looking piece of space rock!

As for the Planetary society blog....well, I'm checking it from time to time...but you do realize that just checking 5, 6 to 8 pages daily is taking enough of my work time...and like my signature says....well, I really should be working!
I guess I'll change the MER page for the Planetary society blog sometimes in the future...

Posted by: Andrei Jan 30 2009, 11:13 AM

Oh my, oh my!...
I've just realized last night why I forgot Rosetta's encounter with asteroid Steins...
That happened in the beginning of september...when me and fiance just moved to our new flat on august the first, got a visit for about a week from my parents (which were 5 mm close to death on the way to us because of a sleepy truck driver), than, after another week, got again a visit from may parents, than start planning our wedding (on the 27th of september biggrin.gif) ...you know, stick to the budget, make your medical exams, search for a place...unpacking all the things in the new flat (by the way, finally, last week I found my cats' vaccinations records)...no wander I forgot about an encounter with an asteroid...

Posted by: ilbasso Jan 30 2009, 08:25 PM

Well, you've listed a few things you can't blame the ESA for.

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