Is Pluto warming up? |
Is Pluto warming up? |
Jul 27 2006, 01:15 AM
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 8-January 05 From: Austin | Texas Member No.: 138 |
With any luck the atmosphere will continue to warm and thicken as New Horizons makes its pass.
Thoughts? _______ Pluto thought to be warming up Astronomers at the University of Tasmania have found that the solar system's smallest planet is not getting colder as first thought and it probably does not have rings. Dr John Greenhill has collected observations from last month's event when Pluto passed in front of a bright star, making it easier to study. French scientists have shared the measurements they took in Tasmania that night, which indicate that the planet is unlikely to have rings. Dr Greenhill says the results are surprising because they show Pluto is warming up. "It looks as though the atmosphere has not changed from 2002, which is pretty surprising because we expected the atmosphere would freeze out as the planet moved further away from the Sun," he said. "But so far, if anything, the atmosphere has gotten even denser." abc |
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_* |
Jul 27 2006, 01:29 AM
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#2
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Guests |
With any luck the atmosphere will continue to warm and thicken as New Horizons makes its pass. Thoughts? Thanks, ups. This is interesting, though I'd be interested in seeing exactly what Greenhill et al. are claiming and, moreover, what they manage to get through peer review. That said, it's probably good that this press release didn't come out before New Horizons was launched. |
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Guest_Richard Trigaux_* |
Jul 27 2006, 06:47 AM
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#3
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Ah, global warming extending to Pluto, even Greepeace did not expected that
The curious thing is that the atmosphere seems denser when they expected it would become lighter, from increasing cold. This is perhaps from some cryovolcanic activity. We can imagine a surface layer of frozen volatiles, which would warm up from bottom by geothermal heating. At moments, deep pockets of gasses would erupt to the surface, thickening the atmosphere. And then, they would freeze again, forming surface layers. So the overal frozen gas layer would slowly turn over itself. |
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Jul 27 2006, 11:34 AM
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#4
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Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 66 Joined: 8-November 05 From: Australia Member No.: 547 |
Ah, global warming extending to Pluto, even Greepeace did not expected that The curious thing is that the atmosphere seems denser when they expected it would become lighter, from increasing cold. This is perhaps from some cryovolcanic activity. We can imagine a surface layer of frozen volatiles, which would warm up from bottom by geothermal heating. At moments, deep pockets of gasses would erupt to the surface, thickening the atmosphere. And then, they would freeze again, forming surface layers. So the overal frozen gas layer would slowly turn over itself. Geothermal heating? In a small icy body 40AU from the sun? Unlike Europa, Enceladus or Triton, Pluto is not in orbit around a large parent capable of invoking tidal forces, and any heat from radioactive decay in its rocky core would be insufficient to drive any appreciable activity. Charon no doubt contributes some tidal heating, but it would surely be negligible. Having said that, the HST images show striking albedo variations, so clearly the surface demonstrates variety. I expect that we will see evidence of past geological activity, but long since ceased, and of course the expected seasonal frosts waxing & waning with orbital distance. Can't wait for NH to arrive!! Lets hope Pluto is more than a distant cousin of boring Rhea! That would be a cause for much grief and a gnashing of teeth |
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Jul 27 2006, 11:54 AM
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 529 Joined: 19-February 05 Member No.: 173 |
I'll still put my money on it being a simple case of thermal inertia, i.e., a phase delay between
perihelion and the warmest day. Almost 20 years ago we modelled this effect in a paper led by Larry Trafton and predcted phase lags of up to 17 years after perihelion (1989.7) before the cooling begins. The situation is rather anlagous to the reason the hottest days of summer are some weeks after the summer solstice, but Pluto's 248 year orbital timescale stretches everything out from weeks to decades. |
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Jul 27 2006, 12:37 PM
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#6
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Solar System Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 10151 Joined: 5-April 05 From: Canada Member No.: 227 |
You beat me to it, Alan, but that was my feeling as well.
Phil -------------------- ... because the Solar System ain't gonna map itself.
Also to be found posting similar content on https://mastodon.social/@PhilStooke Maps for download (free PD: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Cartography.pdf NOTE: everything created by me which I post on UMSF is considered to be in the public domain (NOT CC, public domain) |
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Jul 27 2006, 03:06 PM
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#7
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14432 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
Just out of interest...I set up a spreadsheet..
All units are just random really - I set up a body with a thermal capacity which was added to at a rate that followed the inverse square of an orbit from 90 to 110 random units..but that energy was lost at a constant rate The attached shows the 'range' to the sun in blue, and the 'temperature' of the body in pink - and it lags behind the range by quite a bit. I probably screwed up the maths somewhere, but it showed that 'thermal lag' of an object behind the seasonal temperature.
Attached File(s)
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Jul 27 2006, 04:04 PM
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 509 Joined: 2-July 05 From: Calgary, Alberta Member No.: 426 |
Charon no doubt contributes some tidal heating, but it would surely be negligible. Actually, it wouldn't. Pluto and Charon both keep the same face towards the other all of the time, so there wouldn't be any tides in the system at all. With nothing to force Charon's orbit, it would circularize and then stay like that for eons. On second thought, I've forgotten for the moment about Nyx and Hydra. They'd contribute some tidal action, partly from their own gravity acting on Pluto, and partly from keeping Charon's orbit a bit elliptical (assuming they are in resonance with Charon). But geez, it couldn't amount to much. As for thermal inertia, methane's a pretty strong greenhouse gas, isn't it? |
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_* |
Jul 27 2006, 04:28 PM
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#9
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Guests |
I'll still put my money on it being a simple case of thermal inertia, i.e., a phase delay between perihelion and the warmest day. Almost 20 years ago we modelled this effect in a paper led by Larry Trafton and predcted phase lags of up to 17 years after perihelion (1989.7) before the cooling begins. The situation is rather anlagous to the reason the hottest days of summer are some weeks after the summer solstice, but Pluto's 248 year orbital timescale stretches everything out from weeks to decades. Alan, I'm not sure if you were aboard at the time but other Yahoo! planetary_sciences alumni may recall a rather long thread "The Plutonian Atmospheric Collapse Debate" from 2002, which I started at message #3960. I'll quote that post below verbatim and without any editing, which means I'll probably be embarrassed Oh, and don't assume the four-year old links still work.
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Jul 27 2006, 04:44 PM
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#10
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Director of Galilean Photography Group: Members Posts: 896 Joined: 15-July 04 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 93 |
Also, Pluto's albedo isn't uniform, so is it possible that as it heads away from perihelion darker parts of the planet are preferred and keeping it warmer longer?
Also, I was wondering if the light/dark albedos could be a self-reinforcing effect? IE, the dark units stay warmer longer, preventing the atmosphere from condensing on them and lightening them up? -------------------- Space Enthusiast Richard Hendricks
-- "The engineers, as usual, made a tremendous fuss. Again as usual, they did the job in half the time they had dismissed as being absolutely impossible." --Rescue Party, Arthur C Clarke Mother Nature is the final inspector of all quality. |
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Jul 27 2006, 06:21 PM
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#11
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2530 Joined: 20-April 05 Member No.: 321 |
Also, Pluto's albedo isn't uniform, so is it possible that as it heads away from perihelion darker parts of the planet are preferred and keeping it warmer longer? Could be, although roughly speaking, Pluto has bright poles and a dark equator. You'd think that the equinox would provide maximum exposure of the dark areas, and that progressing towards a solstice would increase the explosure of bright, reflective pole surface. On the third hand ( ), that may defrost a pole out, increase the greenhouse effect, and/or decrease the albedo. This is a complex dynamical system, and the increase in thickness now makes me a little nervous that there could be a sudden collapse before NH gets there. The more uphills you encounter before reaching your destination, the more downhills are waiting for you in the successive portions of your voyage. Of course, it may be a simple phase shift with the thermal seasons lagging behind the solar seasons. Just to detail the Earth's continental climates as an example, St. Louis has a maximum average high sometime around July 22 (yes, this week) and low around January 12. Those average to a lag of about 25 days behind the solstice, or 6.8% of the year. The same proportion on Pluto (and there's no reason why it would be the same) would be 17 years. With an equinox at 1988, that would correspond to 2005, and lo, that's the same number Alan mentions and gibes with the sparse data showing that it's warmer in 2006 than 2002. If everything were symmetric, NH's arrival would be isothermal with 1995, and there was no freeze-out then. |
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Guest_Richard Trigaux_* |
Jul 27 2006, 06:58 PM
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#12
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JRehling, Doug and Alan Stern, thermal inertia is a function of time, not of phase. And I would be very surprised that the small Pluto has a 17 year effect, when in is counted in days on Earth. In more, most of Earth's inertia is caused by the oceans, a very efficient retarder that Pluto don't have (nothing can remain liquid on Pluto surface). If Earth had a 248 years orbit, everything else the same, the lag would still be about 22 days, very far from 17 years.
So we cannot make a proportion in a matter of a fraction of the year (phase angle) but in absolute duration. So if we assume Pluto has the same inertia than earth, it is still 22 day, not 17 years. And even if some process would give a much larger inertia to Pluto than on Earth, 17 years make about four orders of magnitude more than Earth's ocean, I realy wonder what would store that much heat on Pluto than our oceans. hendric, I think your idea of self reinforcing effect is interesting: dark places would be hotter, thus avoiding the condensation of gasses, while clear places would remain cold. Eventually the evaporation of gasses could happen by bursts, suddenly cleaning a place from gasses and explaining surges in atmospheric pressure. Big_Gazza, I still hold to the idea of geothermal heating. Of course Pluto is not Io, and even not Enceladus. But only a very small amount of geothermal heating would be enough to evaporate some frozen gasses in a pocket, in a time scale of centuries. It is much like geothermal melting of Antarctic ice cap, from the bottom, which is very weak, but on all the surface it is enough to form rivers. A geothermal flux as weak as we can imagine (due to a remnant or radioactivity, or tidal heating by the satellites) could, by accumulation over centuries or millenia, evaporate significant amounts of gasses, which could erupt violently, at times. The weaker the geothermal flux, the less eruptions, but the geothermal flux cannot be just zero. |
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Jul 27 2006, 08:11 PM
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#13
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14432 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
Why do you suggest it wouldn't scale to be a longer duration effect with a longer duration orbit?
Doug |
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Jul 27 2006, 09:44 PM
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#14
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Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 10-December 05 Member No.: 605 |
QUOTE So we cannot make a proportion in a matter of a fraction of the year (phase angle) but in absolute duration. So if we assume Pluto has the same inertia than earth, it is still 22 day, not 17 years. This doesn't make sense to me. If, for the sake of argument, the Earth were in a 44-day orbit, would the warmest day fall at the winter solstice 22 days later? Further, I think not much thermal inertia may be required to account for the Plutonian warming - with temperature differentials between seasons smaller and seasons longer than on Earth, a lesser thermal inertia could account for the effect. Also, nitrogen sublimation into the atmosphere is a cooling effect around perihelion... perhaps this cooling weakens as more polar nitrogen ices are consumed, helping to account for the warming? |
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Jul 27 2006, 10:08 PM
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 624 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 460 |
The heat capacity of water - the oceans - is much greater than that of liquid nitrogen - also, the heat of evaporation of water is much higher than almost anything else. So as Richard has argued, it is difficult to see how the thermal inertia at pluto could create a significant lag between the heating and cooling cycle.
One other thought on the subject: In the dry artic air of Fairbanks Alaska, the mean temperature peaks earlier in July than in more temperate regions. http://www.met.utah.edu/jhorel/html/wx/climate/maxtemp.html |
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