NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows on Mars Options

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Dec. 4, 2006

Dwayne Brown/Erica Hupp
Headquarters, Washington
202-358-1726/1237

Guy Webster
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
818-354-6278

MEDIA ADVISORY: M06-186

NASA SCHEDULES BRIEFING TO ANNOUNCE SIGNIFICANT FIND ON MARS

WASHINGTON - NASA hosts a news briefing at 1 p.m. EST, Wednesday, Dec.
6, to present new science results from the Mars Global Surveyor. The
briefing will take place in the NASA Headquarters auditorium located
at 300 E Street, S.W. in Washington and carried live on NASA
Television and www.nasa.gov.

The agency last week announced the spacecraft's mission may be at its
end. Mars Global Surveyor has served the longest and been the most
productive of any spacecraft ever sent to the red planet. Data
gathered from the mission will continue to be analyzed by scientists.


Panelists include:
- Michael Meyer -- Lead Scientist, Mars Exploration Program, NASA
Headquarters, Washington
- Michael Malin -- President and Chief Scientist, Malin Space Science
Systems, San Diego, Calif.
- Kenneth Edgett -- Scientist, Malin Space Science Systems
- Philip Christensen -- Professor, Arizona State University, Tempe,
Ariz.

[monitorlizard]

The presence of Philip Christensen (PI for TES) on the panel may indicate the discovery of a new spectral feature on Mars. That could be very interesting, and downright thrilling if CRISM and HiRISE follow up on it!

[Tesheiner]

I just found this while reading NASA Watch; perhaps it is related to Wednesday's briefing. Take it with A LOT of care; it might be just smoke.

Editor's note: According to an item first posted by Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine: "NASA is ready to announce major new findings about the presence of water currently emerging onto the surface of Mars.

http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2006/12/...n_week_e_1.html

[djellison]

It's impossible to know where smoke ends and facts start with NW nowadays - it's turned into KC's personal ranting-blog instead of a reliable news source, a pity really. However the AW speculation is likely to be fairly sound.

Doug

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

It's impossible to know where smoke ends and facts start with NW nowadays - it's turned into KC's personal ranting-blog instead of a reliable news source, a pity really. However the AW speculation is likely to be fairly sound.

As for Cowing's "ranting," what's really funny is this little bit:

Apparently some reporters were given access to embargoed information from the participants and NASA JPL while others were not. So much for providing equal access to all media. NASA is playing favorites once again.

I guess he hasn't been getting any rides on NASA One lately.

EDIT: Apparently, my original post has created some flak for Doug. Although this is a discussion forum, I should have stated what I thought was obvious, that that was my opinion, not Doug's. I apologize for any inconvenience to Doug or UMSF, both of whom/which I hold in high regard. For that reason, I've edited the statement by deleting a sentence. Hopefully, this will end the harangue Doug has been enduring from a certain person. Though I do stand by the "ranting" part

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 12 2006, 05:52 PM

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

The presence of Philip Christensen (PI for TES) on the panel may indicate the discovery of a new spectral feature on Mars. That could be very interesting, and downright thrilling if CRISM and HiRISE follow up on it!

Listen very carefully, and I mean carefully, to the very last bit of Christensen's recent interview on Planetary Radio (which was posted yesterday).

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Gullies

[tglotch]

A few points:

1) Remember that a TES "pixel" or footprint is 3 x 8 km, so any interesting region with a new spectral feature would have to be at least this big. Typically we like to see the same feature in a few pixels to believe that its really there. In addition, TES hasn't been mapping mineralogy for quite some time due to a "glitch" that has degraded the spectral data. Recently TES has been used for thermal inertia and atmospheric studies.

2) I don't know, because I haven't talked to him about it, but listening to the interview, I would guess that the gullies to which Phil was referring were those he discussed in a Nature (I think) paper a few years ago which also show a "pasted-on" terrain near the gullies which he hypothesized to be dust-covered snow. If there's a new major announcement regarding these gullies and MGS, its probably some new interesting MOC imagery.

but then again, I've been wrong before, so who knows?

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

2) I don't know, because I haven't talked to him about it, but listening to the interview, I would guess that the gullies to which Phil was referring were those he discussed in a Nature (I think) paper a few years ago which also show a "pasted-on" terrain near the gullies which he hypothesized to be dust-covered snow.

Hmmm...

I'm wondering if we should bone up Malin and Edgett's 2000 paper in Science, as well as Christensen's Nature paper.

Also, a 2003 PSRD release might be good reading.

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 5 2006, 06:30 PM

[ugordan]

This definitely sounds like it belongs to a separate thread. It's urelated to the MGS mishap. And Alex, why do I get the distinct feeling you know something we don't?

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

Per Gordan's suggestion, I'll start a new thread on this topic and merge the other posts into it.

EDIT:

And Alex, why do I get the distinct feeling you know something we don't?

Like most people here, I'm just guessing. That said, I wonder if Christensen will mention his "THOR" mission concept tomorrow?

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 5 2006, 08:15 PM

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

Leonard David has a brief blurb in his blog.

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 5 2006, 08:42 PM

[volcanopele]

Maybe a gully seen recently but not seen in older MOC images? Phil Christensen could be there to present spectroscopy results of said "new" gully from TES or THEMIS.

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

Maybe a gully seen recently but not seen in older MOC images? Phil Christensen could be there to present spectroscopy results of said "new" gully from TES or THEMIS.

You could be right. However, since we're just speculating, I'm wondering if, as tglotch alluded to above, Christensen might be there to discuss and expand on his gully formation model, as published in the Nature paper. And note that Christensen's results in 2003 were based not on THEMIS IR (let alone lower res TES) but rather on THEMIS VIS imagery, which gave a more synpotic view of the gully sites than MOC NA.

Again, just speculating, but maybe Malin and Edgett have detected noticeable changes in already-mapped gully sites and/or have added more gully sites to the existing database increasing the coverage over the mid-latitudes?

Whatever the results turn out to be, tomorrow should be interesting.

EDIT: One should note the fundamental difference between the Malin/Edgett model and Christensen's. In the former, a subsurface origin for the seeps, which implies near-surface reservoirs and/or aquifers, is posited; in the latter, basal melting from overlying snowpacks (due to Mars' obliquity excursions) is invoked. So if tomorrow's press conference is about gullies, and if Malin/Edgett and Christensen have come to some common view on the formation mechanism(s), that, in and of itself, is interesting.

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 6 2006, 01:23 AM

[JonClarke]

One should note the fundamental difference between the Malin/Edgett model and Christensen's. In the former, a subsurface origin for the seeps, which implies near-surface reservoirs and/or aquifers, is posited; in the latter, basal melting from overlying snowpacks (due to Mars' obliquity excursions) is invoked. So if tomorrow's press conference is about gullies, and if Malin/Edgett and Christensen have come to some common view on the formation mechanism(s), that, in and of itself, is interesting.

Why should they not both be right in different places?

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

Why should they not both be right in different places?

That's certainly plausible, Jon, and I wouldn't be surprised if that is indeed the case.

[MizarKey]

I know that this group is usually great about posting highlights during the briefing, I was hoping this trend would continue as I'm blocked from watching anything by the network at my job. So please, keep a running thread about what's being said. Thanks in advance.

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

It looks like the story is leaking out, no pun intended, courtesy of The Daily Mail.

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 6 2006, 04:55 PM

[ugordan]

The Daily Mail:

Earlier this week the MOC took pictures of the NASA exploration vehicle rover Spirit on the planet's surface.

Hmmm....

[Stu]

Good old Daily Mail... can't be Michael Hanlon's piece, he knows his stuff. Some sausage-fingered staff writer has provided us with these nuggets...

NASA researchers have documented the formation of new craters on the plant's surface and found bright, light-coloured deposits in gullies that were not present in previous photos.

The "plant's " surface?!?!?!? They've spotted plants on Mars big enough to have craters on them! How the **** did the Vikings miss those?!?

Earlier this week the MOC took pictures of the NASA exploration vehicle rover Spirit on the planet's surface.

MOC imaged Spirit? Wow, they kept that quiet.... Oops! Someone didn't do their research...

[tuvas]

It looks like the story is leaking out, no pun intended, courtesy of The Daily Mail.

Are you sure you can trust this source?

Earlier this week the MOC took pictures of the NASA exploration vehicle rover Spirit on the planet's surface.

Only last month British cosmologist Professor Stephen Hawking advocated missions to other planets.

Is Stephen Hawking British? And MOC isn't working, let along taking a picture of Spirit... Unless....

ADDED: I guess I was wrong about Stephen Hawking. For some reason I never had thought of him as British... But he is...

[Stu]

More details...

Martian find raises chances of life
ALICIA CHANG
ASSOCIATED PRESS
December 6, 2006

LOS ANGELES - A provocative new study of photographs taken from orbit
suggests that liquid water flowed on the surface of Mars as recently as
several years ago, raising the possibility that the Red Planet could
harbour an environment favourable to life.

The crisp images taken by the Mars Global Surveyor do not directly show
water. Rather, they show apparently recent changes in surface features
that provide the strongest evidence yet that water even now sometimes
flows on the dusty, frigid world. Water and a stable heat source are
considered keys for life to emerge.

Until now, the question of liquid water has focused on ancient Mars, and
on the Martian north pole, where water ice has been detected. Scientists
have long noted Martian features that appear to have been scoured by
water or look like shorelines, and have tried to prove that the Red
Planet had liquid water eons ago.

"This underscores the importance of searching for life on Mars, either
present or past," said Bruce Jakosky, an astrobiologist at the
University of Colorado at Boulder, who had no role in the study. "It's
one more reason to think that life could be there.''

The new findings were published Wednesday in the journal Science and
NASA scheduled a news conference for Wednesday afternoon to announce the
results.

Oded Aharonson, an assistant professor of planetary science at the
California Institute of Technology, said that while the interpretation
of recent water activity on Mars was "compelling," it's just one
possible explanation. Aharonson said further study is needed to
determine whether the deposit could have been left there by the flow of
dust rather than water.

The latest research emerged when the Global Surveyor spotted gullies and
trenches that scientists believed were geologically young and carved by
fast-moving water coursing down cliffs and steep crater walls.

Scientists at the San Diego-based Malin Space Science Systems, who
operate a camera aboard the spacecraft, decided to retake photos of
thousands of gullies in search of evidence of recent water activity.

Two gullies that were originally photographed in 1999 and 2001 and
re-imaged in 2004 and 2005 showed changes consistent with water flowing
down the crater walls, according to the study.

In both cases, scientists found bright, light-colored deposits in the
gullies that weren't present in the original photos. They concluded the
deposits - possibly mud, salt or frost - were left there when water
recently cascaded through the channels.

The Global Surveyor, managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory,
abruptly lost radio contact with Earth last month. Attempts to locate
the spacecraft, which has mapped Mars since 1996, have failed and
scientists fear it is unusable.

NASA's durable Mars rovers have sent scientists strong evidence that the
planet once had liquid water at or near the surface, based on
observations of alterations in ancient rocks.

"We're now realizing Mars is more active than we previously thought and
that the mid-latitude section seems to be where all the action is," said
Arizona State University scientist Phil Christensen, who was not part of
the current research.

Mars formed more than 4.5 billion years ago and scientists generally
believe it went through an early wet and warm era that ended after 1.5
billion to 2.5 billion years, leaving the planet extremely dry and cold.

Water can't remain a liquid for long because of subzero surface
temperatures and low atmospheric pressure that would turn water into ice
or gas.

But some studies have pointed to the possibility of liquid water flowing
briefly on the surface through a possible underground water source that
periodically shoots up like an aquifer.

[imipak]

Earlier this week the MOC took pictures of the NASA exploration vehicle rover Spirit on the planet's surface.

MOC imaged Spirit? Wow, they kept that quiet.... Oops! Someone didn't do their research...

Oh, I'm not so sure of that... (though the Daily Mail, the original "fascist rag", is hardly a journal of record.) Steve Squyres did say that Spirit and environs was pretty high up the priority target lists. Unlike the VC image, I imagine there'd be no need to rush-release the image. I'm rather hoping it's both... perhaps a gully has appeared on the side of Husband Hill

BTW - yes please, if anyone has access to NASA TV and feels like posting notes... please do!

[Stu]

Is Stephen Hawking British?

Does a bear [rest of post deleted]

[Stu]

Sorry, I didn't insert a "sarcastic g*t" icon when I said about them keeping quiet MOC imaging Spirit...

[tuvas]

Does a bear [rest of post deleted]

I appologize, I guess he really is... Guess I should have looked that up myself before posting... Duh!

[imipak]

Sorry, I didn't insert a "sarcastic g*t" icon when I said about them keeping quiet MOC imaging Spirit...

Oh, right, I see ... serves me right for posting without catching up with a weeks' backlog of unread posts! If only I didn't have to work, or sleep, or spend 2h a day driving...

[elakdawalla]

You probably thought he was American because his voice-generating computer was built by an American company -- so he has an American accent! He's also one of the few Brits who appears regularly on The Simpsons...

I don't see the Mars gullies story appearing on Science Express yet...

--Emily

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

I don't see the Mars gullies story appearing on Science Express yet...

Science (and Science Express) has an automated web management system that posts items when the embargo times out. Just keep hitting "Reload" or "Refresh."

[elakdawalla]

It's typically more efficient for me to wait until you post a link here, Alex

--Emily

[ustrax]

"MARS
Recent Activity Revealed"

That's the header...

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

It's typically more efficient for me to wait until you post a link here, Alex

Your wish is my command. MSSS link.

EDIT: And I believe the paper will be published in the December 8, 2006, issue of Science.

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 6 2006, 06:00 PM

[ElkGroveDan]

We now have a new unit of measure; Swimming Pools.

[remcook]

very nice summaries on the msss page. Something else to look at with more detail with HiRISE perhaps?

edit-downloads on: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mars/main/index.html

[tuvas]

very nice summaries on the msss page. Something else to look at with more detail with HiRISE perhaps?

edit-downloads on: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mars/main/index.html

I'd be willing to bet that it's far more likely to have CRISM follow up then HiRISE, although HiRISE will almost certainly photograph these areas quite soon (I have no idea when, so...)

[Guest_Analyst_*]

A very good press confernce, good questions.

I have been a child during the Voyager encounters, but the discovery of frequent liquid water on mars is something I compare to volcanism on Io or gryovulcanism on Triton. Just great. The legacy of MGS continues. May she rest (or circle) in peace.

Analyst

[volcanopele]

frequent liquid water on mars is something I compare to volcanism on Io or gryovulcanism on Triton. Just great. The legacy of MGS continues. May she rest (or circle) in peace.

I wouldn't go THAT far. It is interesting, but the news that Mars gets hit by impact craters, and that gullies are present-day phenomena (given the crater counts on previously observed gullies) isn't that shocking. Interesting, but not shocking. I would put it on the level of the discovery of lakes on Titan, a discovery which just confirmed that we were at least on the right track with Titan.

[centsworth_II]

... the discovery of frequent liquid water on mars...

You mean recent, not frequent, right?

[um3k]

I recorded the NASA TV internet stream of the entire conference. I'll upload it somewhere once I convert it to an appropriate format.

[SteveM]

I'd be willing to bet that it's far more likely to have CRISM follow up then HiRISE, although HiRISE will almost certainly photograph these areas quite soon (I have no idea when, so...)

I'd be willing to bet that when CRISM focuses on these gullies they'll find salts of some kind. I'd even put a smaller wager on sulphate salts. As Steve Squyres mentioned in response to a question at Open University, the "water" on mars is acidic and inhospitable to life. That suggests that this AP article may be premature.

Martian find raises chances of life
ALICIA CHANG
ASSOCIATED PRESS
December 6, 2006
...
"This underscores the importance of searching for life on Mars, either present or past," said Bruce Jakosky, an astrobiologist at the University of Colorado at Boulder, who had no role in the study. "It's one more reason to think that life could be there.''
...

Steve

[volcanopele]

I'd be willing to bet that when CRISM focuses on these gullies they'll find salts of some kind. I'd even put a smaller wager on sulphate salts. As Steve Squyres mentioned in response to a question at Open University, the "water" on mars is acidic and inhospitable to life. That suggests that this AP article may be premature.
Steve

I agree. I would not be surprised if the bright deposits are some kind of sulphate salt.

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows in Brief Spurts on Mars
NASA/JPL
December 6, 2006

Note: I'm going to change the name of this thread to the title above (or something close to it, depending on the space in the topic line).

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 6 2006, 07:41 PM

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

I agree. I would not be surprised if the bright deposits are some kind of sulphate salt.

Aside from HiRISE and CRISM, Malin mentioned SHARAD. I'm interested to see if the putative aquifers are detectable by GPR.

[vmcgregor]

Additional multimedia products (video, podcast, slideshow) have been added to the JPL homepage at www.jpl.nasa.gov

-Veronica McGregor
JPL Media Relations

[tglotch]

I'd be willing to bet that when CRISM focuses on these gullies they'll find salts of some kind. I'd even put a smaller wager on sulphate salts. As Steve Squyres mentioned in response to a question at Open University, the "water" on mars is acidic and inhospitable to life. That suggests that this AP article may be premature.
Steve

Well, we have evidence from two landing sites for acidic water in the form of sulfates. But don't forget that OMEGA has found plenty of evidence for gypsum and kieserite all over Mars, which are neutral salts and don't necessarily imply an acidic envrionment.

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

I wouldn't go THAT far. It is interesting, but the news that Mars gets hit by impact craters, and that gullies are present-day phenomena (given the crater counts on previously observed gullies) isn't that shocking. Interesting, but not shocking. I would put it on the level of the discovery of lakes on Titan, a discovery which just confirmed that we were at least on the right track with Titan.

Oh Jason, your outer planets biases are showing

I think any scientist would agree that liquid water flowing at the surface or near-surface of present-day Mars is more than merely "interesting."

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 6 2006, 08:31 PM

[ElkGroveDan]

Additional multimedia products (video, podcast, slideshow) have been added to the JPL homepage at www.jpl.nasa.gov

-Veronica McGregor
JPL Media Relations

Welcome to UMSF Veronica
(from one silently suffering media relations person to another)

[John M. Dollan]

Considering the rate that the Earth intercepts meteors, and adding to that Mars' thinner atmopshere, would it not stand to reason that impacts would reach the surface much, much more often?

And if that is true, what does it say about those regions that are relatively crater-free? Could there be some active geology involved, or are Martian aeolian forces enough to erase some of these smaller craters?

...John, curious as always...

[Paolo]

Are artillery projectile-probes like these http://web.mit.edu/iang/www/pubs/artillery_05.pdf the only method suggested so far to explore the gullies?

[climber]

We now have a new unit of measure; Swimming Pools.

I was sure YOU'll pick this one up
BTW, they had another one but can't remeber what it was; Swimming Pools is good enough anyway

[climber]

While listening to the show, a question crossed my mind : OK we can see gullies 5-10 Swimming Pools big but DO smaller ones exist? I mean smaller than MGS resolution i.e. the one MRO could see...
If Mickael Malin dam theory is right this could provide smaller one to occur but I'm looking forward to MRO pictures of the 2 gullies presented tonight as well as all bright one that are probably quite recent if I understood correctly.

PS : a to Doug. When you interview Jim Bell, your line is still much better than Ames'

[Stu]

"Interesting"?



"INTERESTING?"



Are you a VULCAN volcanopele [corrected] ?!!!! Does cold, coppery green blood flow through those veins? Did your left eyebrow merely lift quizically when you saw those images when you peered into your science monitor??

Do you know how long many of us "Out here" have been waiting for these images and this news? What we have there is the strongest evidence yet for Mars being a potential habitat for life, nothing more, nothing less. And I know some sticks in the fresh martian mud will say that that's too optimistic, too simplistic and going over the top - I don't care!!!!! I want to go out and laugh at the sky now! Look at the pictures!! Something poured out down those crater walls for a while. Something... wonderful... Something that is calling to us, siren-like, "Come and look more closely... come... come..."

Imagine standing there, on the rim of that crater, and seeing a gully in flow...



... imagine feeling the rumble beneath your boots as the water breaks through and starts to gush... imagine seeing the water steaming and boiling in the low atmospheric pressure, sliding and slavering down the crater wall's slopes, dying even as you watched it... imagine watching the gushing stop, and the last of the free water evaporate away, leaving behind a glistening snakeskin of freshly-exposed salts, covered with glinting frost, like someone has spilled molten glass from above... Doesn't that make you feel amazed?!

We thought we knew Mars but we don't. We were fooling ourselves all along. It has secrets still, locked away in its rocks, maybe even just a gloved hand's depth beneath its dusty surface. Imagine that, an evolved monkey's hand trailing through the dust of Mars, its fingers digging down, down... what would it find...?

I know this post might seem over the top but I'm sorry, I'm on a high right now and in no mood to be cold and scientific. There wasn't just water on Mars a billion, a million or a thousand years ago, there was water there a couple of years ago, flowing... and there probably is now, as I type this. The implications of that are enormous, simply enormous. We should be celebrating, not downplaying it.

Go on volcanopele, put a party hat on, I dare ya...

[John M. Dollan]

Stu...

Where did you find that image? It is absolutely, stunningly beautiful! Please, is it some kind of public image, or is it covered by copyright? I'd love to use it on one of my websites....

...John...

[volcanopele]

I'm not tuvas. I'm not a vulcan, either, I'm an Ionian, and red-hot, ultramafic lava flows through my veins... My reaction was that this news was interesting and that I wanted to see those features in HiRISE images. But, no, I didn't get all that excited. Maybe it is my outer planets bias, but flowing, boiling acidic water just isn't as exciting as huge lava flows on Io, the Earth-like geology of Titan, the geysers of Triton, or I dare say, the ocean on Europa.

EDIT: I forgot Enceladus' geysers, how silly of me

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

I'm not a vulcan, either, I'm an Ionian, and red-hot, ultramafic lava flows through my veins...

And through your basilar and carotid arteries, too

[ngunn]

I can't get either the msss or nasa links to work (Are they awash with hits?) so I've still only seen one pair of pictures on a BBC TV news screen. Could somebody post just the pictures?

[climber]

I'm not tuvas. I'm not a vulcan, either, I'm an Ionian, and red-hot, ultramafic lava flows through my veins... My reaction was that this news was interesting and that I wanted to see those features in HiRISE images. But, no, I didn't get all that excited. Maybe it is my outer planets bias, but flowing, boiling acidic water just isn't as exciting as huge lava flows on Io, the Earth-like geology of Titan, the geysers of Triton, or I dare say, the ocean on Europa.

I'm not Stu (you'd better change to Stugully now ). I get the point volcanopele and I also love "your" places, but we'll go physicaly to Mars ONE full century before the places you're talking about...and THAT is exciting...

[Stu]

I'm not tuvas. I'm not a vulcan, either, I'm an Ionian, and red-hot, ultramafic lava flows through my veins... My reaction was that this news was interesting and that I wanted to see those features in HiRISE images. But, no, I didn't get all that excited. Maybe it is my outer planets bias, but flowing, boiling acidic water just isn't as exciting as huge lava flows on Io, the Earth-like geology of Titan, the geysers of Triton, or I dare say, the ocean on Europa.

Apologies for the mistake, written in haste, I've corrected it.

I agree that all your other things are exciting (except maybe the geysers of Triton... not too fussed about them), but they're a looooong way away, and we have no chance of seeing them up close and personal, with wide, startled human eyes, in our lifetimes or even two lifetimes after that. It's not the water itself that's exciting to me it's what it represents - a dynamic, warm-and-wet-in-places Mars - and what it teases, that there could be life there, right now. That "flowing, boiling acidic" water might be thick with microbes all shouting "Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" as they fly through the air... admittedly mere seconds before dying a horrible death, but hey...

The future just shifted beneath our feet, settling into a new structure and pattern. Surely someone else felt it too?

(that pic, by the way, is one I've had on my computer for ages, can't even remember where I got it now, but I think it was from a space calendar a friend gave me... sorry I can't be of much more help...)

[climber]

I can't get either the msss or nasa links to work (Are they awash with hits?) so I've still only seen one pair of pictures on a BBC TV news screen. Could somebody post just the pictures?

here's a link : http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2006-145
And images

[Stu]

Pics...

[Nix]

I'm very excited with these new foundings, also on the new impact features.

A quick search for other light-toned areas associated with gullies turned up this image; there is such an area in the big crater near the middle of the image.

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/s05_s10/fu...10/S1001717.gif

The hunt is open..

Nico

[Guest_Analyst_*]

You mean recent, not frequent, right?

English is not my native language. I mean the water is not flowing for long periods of time (like a river), but only for short periods (maybe hours), but again and again. AND it's been recent.

Analyst

[imipak]

"Interesting"?



"INTERESTING?"

I concur. It is interesting; it demonstrated the usefulness of extended missions (and launching long-lived hardware), demonstrated again the power of serendipity and a sharp pair of eyes (Edgett/Malin appear to be saying the first new crater was spotted visually in a wide-angle context image, ie without comparison to the previous image of the same area!) and adds a nice detail to the current state of knowledge about sub-surface fluids. It probably helps eliminate up a couple of alternative explanations for the gullies (and if not, HiRISE et al will do so.) (Tho' AFAIK CO2 ice is still a possibility?) But exciting? More so than, say, the MER EDL, or Opportunity's arriving at Victoria Crater? I confess I was mildly excited when I heard the first rumours of a major NASA announcement, but having seen the names listed (and read this thread), the actual news was pretty much as expected. Spotting new craters is MORE exciting, to me, and I think will be seen to be a more significant single discovery in 10 years' time.

Moreover, I heard someone from the Beagle team interviewed on Radio 4 ("PM"), and he made a point of saying "yes, I know we've had these same stories about "water on Mars!!" every couple of years for the last decade." He was just getting his retaliation in first - I predict comedians (funny and otherwise) will be pointing that out before Saturday morning.

However, liquid flowing down the gullies shouldn't be news to anyone who's been paying attention. The original paper revealing the gullies already made it clear that they were clearly relatively recent features, and it is not that surprising that one or two would trickle for a minute or two once or twice a decade.

I think the image, attractive though it is, looks more like the Three Gorges than Mars From what I remember of the original paper, if you were there on the surface when one of these things was active you'd see a small, narrow strip of dirty water running straight down the slope, subliming as it went; not bursting out under enormous pressure and spraying tens of feet out into the air... the gully would cut much more deeply into the crater wall if it were that violent. I also wonder about the concentration of any putative salts... if it were very high, would that affect the flow characteristics of the water?

Right, I'm off to find another roaring fire to drape my wet blanket over

[Stu]

sigh... okay... so this isn't brand new "news", we all suspected what was going on, and little voices in our heads have been saying "water carved" ever since the first gullies were spotted... and yes, that image is over-dramatised, a real gully"burst" wouldn't be anything like as violent... and no, this wasn't as heart-pumpingly exciting as Spirit's EDL or Oppy's triumphant, knackered roll up to the rim of Victoria.... but come ON people!!! WATER ON MARS!!!! I refuse to let anyone spoil this night for me, not after I've longed for this news for so long. Get your dirty wet blanket away from my fire! I'm going to spend the night sitting by it under the stars, watching the golden sparks rise into the air, imagining each one is Mars, complete with gullies of steaming, silver-scaled water...

[RichardLeis]

I'm not tuvas. I'm not a vulcan, either, I'm an Ionian, and red-hot, ultramafic lava flows through my veins... My reaction was that this news was interesting and that I wanted to see those features in HiRISE images. But, no, I didn't get all that excited. Maybe it is my outer planets bias, but flowing, boiling acidic water just isn't as exciting as huge lava flows on Io, the Earth-like geology of Titan, the geysers of Triton, or I dare say, the ocean on Europa.

Weird. To me, they are all equally as exciting (including the geysers on Enceladus). Whatever floats our boats, I guess

The solar system is wonderfully active, H20 plays a huge role everywhere, and we have a new foundation for this incredible revolution in planetary science.

Hats off to Mars Global Surveyor and team! What a history!

[RichardLeis]

Is the HiRISE camera going to take images of these areas? Do people really need to ask that!? The whole array of MRO's tools will be used, no doubt.

[climber]

sigh... okay... so this isn't brand new "news", we all suspected what was going on, and little voices in our heads have been saying "water carved" ever since the first gullies were spotted... and yes, that image is over-dramatised, a real gully"burst" wouldn't be anything like as violent... and no, this wasn't as heart-pumpingly exciting as Spirit's EDL or Oppy's triumphant, knackered roll up to the rim of Victoria.... but come ON people!!! WATER ON MARS!!!! I refuse to let anyone spoil this night for me, not after I've longed for this news for so long. Get your dirty wet blanket away from my fire! I'm going to spend the night sitting by it under the stars, watching the golden sparks rise into the air, imagining each one is Mars, complete with gullies of steaming, silver-scaled water...

I'm on your side Stugully! Come on Far Rimers, Far Dreamers, wake up, we need your help. Where are you Dan?
Sorry Near Blanketers I feel Water less letal than projectiles forming craters. I was there when they said "water is flowing on Mars today", I was listening, there's NO doubt : T-O-D-A-Y, they said. I'm gona have a (salty) bath right away and T-O-D-A-Y

[mhoward]

Is the HiRISE camera going to take images of these areas? Do people really need to ask that!? The whole array of MRO's tools will be used, no doubt.

There was never much question in *my* mind on that, nor probably in anyone's at this point

Fantastic images... hats off to MGS indeed.

[ngunn]

Thanks, Stu and climber for the pictures direct, much appreciated as the links are still "server not found" for me. I was able to scan some of the news releases though. I believe someone in the know said that on the evidence the probability of recent aqueous flow is 'high but not very high'. From most of the news reports you would think the certainty had been demonstrated. The trick now will be to catch one of these things moving on the scale of seconds or minutes - the maximum time one can imagine aqueous liquid surviving on the surface.

[JonClarke]

I'm not tuvas. I'm not a vulcan, either, I'm an Ionian, and red-hot, ultramafic lava flows through my veins... My reaction was that this news was interesting and that I wanted to see those features in HiRISE images. But, no, I didn't get all that excited. Maybe it is my outer planets bias, but flowing, boiling acidic water just isn't as exciting as huge lava flows on Io, the Earth-like geology of Titan, the geysers of Triton, or I dare say, the ocean on Europa.

Bah! Seen one komatiite, you seen them all. I've seen thousands.

Jon

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

Thanks, Stu and climber for the pictures direct, much appreciated as the links are still "server not found" for me.

That's weird. I'm not having any problems loading and re-loading the MSSS pages.

[deglr6328]

It should be noted that IF this is water (I want to see NIR spectra with a niiiiiice OH stretch absorption peak right at 1.5 microns before I totally discount liquid CO2) then the conditions are perfect for lyophilization of bacteria etc. in the water as it escapes the ice dam and vaporizes/freezes. This would be THEE ideal spot to collect samples for a return analysis.

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

EDIT: And I believe the paper will be published in the December 8, 2006, issue of Science.

I believe the links below won't go active until tomorrow, unless one has special access during the embargo. In any event, here are the references to the paper and a related news article in the same issue:

Present-Day Impact Cratering Rate and Contemporary Gully Activity on Mars
Michael C. Malin, Kenneth S. Edgett, Liliya V. Posiolova, Shawn M. McColley, and Eldar Z. Noe Dobrea
Science 314, 1573-1577 (2006)
Abstract
Full Text
Supporting Online Material

Richard Kerr's accompanying "News of the Week" article: "Mars Orbiter's Swan Song: The Red Planet Is A-Changin'"

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 6 2006, 10:37 PM

[Nirgal]

...
That "flowing, boiling acidic" water might be thick with microbes all shouting "Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" as they fly through the air... admittedly mere seconds before dying a horrible death, but hey...
...

*LOL*
Stu, I just loooooooove that refreshing, vivid pictorial writing style of yours

[tuvas]

I'm not tuvas. I'm not a vulcan, either, I'm an Ionian, and red-hot, ultramafic lava flows through my veins... My reaction was that this news was interesting and that I wanted to see those features in HiRISE images. But, no, I didn't get all that excited. Maybe it is my outer planets bias, but flowing, boiling acidic water just isn't as exciting as huge lava flows on Io, the Earth-like geology of Titan, the geysers of Triton, or I dare say, the ocean on Europa.

EDIT: I forgot Enceladus' geysers, how silly of me

Jason, come on now, this has to rank there with liquid water being identified at Europa as one of the most exciting discoveries in the Solar System!

[tuvas]

It should be noted that IF this is water (I want to see NIR spectra with a niiiiiice OH stretch absorption peak right at 1.5 microns before I totally discount liquid CO2) then the conditions are perfect for lyophilization of bacteria etc. in the water as it escapes the ice dam and vaporizes/freezes. This would be THEE ideal spot to collect samples for a return analysis.

Liquid CO2? Is that even possible at Mars? Somehow I don't think so... But I could be wrong...

[mhoward]

That "flowing, boiling acidic" water might be thick with microbes all shouting "Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" as they fly through the air... admittedly mere seconds before dying a horrible death, but hey...

You pays your money, you takes your chances...

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

Liquid CO2? Is that even possible at Mars? Somehow I don't think so... But I could be wrong...

Most of us don't think so.

But I see you haven't visited the Wild, Wild World of Hoffmanland. In that case, you'll need directions.

Make sure you're seated during the tour, though

[Anoolios]

This amateur is still skeptical, is the only evidence of water in these gullies the relative albedo (light instead of dark like most other dust/sand deposits)? The most likely explaination seems to me to be dry avalanches.

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

This amateur is still skeptical, is the only evidence of water in these gullies the relative albedo (light instead of dark like most other dust/sand deposits)? The most likely explaination seems to me to be dry avalanches.

It's always good to be skeptical, Anoolios. That is a hallmark of good science.

As for your question, have you seen this page? Note that Malin et al. don't rely just on albedo, though that is a key piece of evidence.

[helvick]

Considering the rate that the Earth intercepts meteors, and adding to that Mars' thinner atmopshere, would it not stand to reason that impacts would reach the surface much, much more often?

The rate is higher but it's not as high as you might think given the difference in densities at the surface. The martian atmosphere is extremely thin and at the surface is comparable to the Earth's at around 35KM but because of the lower martian gravity it's scale height is higher (~11km vs ~6km for earth) it is remarkably similar in density to the Earth's atmosphere once you get above 75km or so if I remember correctly. For the most part it filters out a similar amount of "stuff". By similar I'd guess we're talking about a similar order of magnitude here but I'd have to do some digging to get a number I'd be willing to defend.

The percentage that reaches the ground is higher for another reason that could well be as important - the average atmospheric impact speed at mars orbit is slightly slower (5-10km/sec slower) and so there is less energy to dissipate. For asteroidal debris this is quite significant as the impact speed can be as low as 7km/sec at mars (vs ~17km/sec typically for Earth) so only about 17% of the energy needs to be disipated. Cometary and retrograde impacts are a different animal and the difference at Mars for these (compared to earth) is 80% and 50% respectively.

The main reason there are more apparent craters on Mars is that the surface is (for the most part) really and truly ancient and erosion rates are many orders of magnitude slower than on earth.

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

The main reason there are more apparent craters on Mars is that the surface is (for the most part) really and truly ancient and erosion rates are many orders of magnitude slower than on earth.

Also, proximity to the asteroid belt and Jupiter.

[John M. Dollan]

The rate is higher but it's not as high as you might think...

Thanks for that clarification. It definitely helped me with an off-list discussion.

...John...

[centsworth_II]

.... but come ON people!!! WATER ON MARS!!!! I refuse to let anyone spoil this night for me, not after I've longed for this news for so long....

The reason this news IS really exciting is that for the first time we can think of sending instruments to examine material which recently interacted with liquid water on Mars. Previously it was looking like we would have to wait for a machine which could drill hundreds of meters beneath the surface. The big question now is was the water ancient ice, melted and released in one brief event or are there liquid aquifers which occasionally find their way to the surface?

[ElkGroveDan]

Liquid CO2? Is that even possible at Mars?

You decide:

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Guest_Myran_*]

tuvas wrote: Liquid CO2? Is that even possible at Mars? Somehow I don't think so... But I could be wrong...

Liquid CO2 will not be possible in 'open air' with the Martian air as thin as it is, same as on Earth.
But nothing prevents liquid CO2 from being kept underground if it have a good nice aquifier or perhaps a lid of frozen water. Yes the pressure would be great, but this could also explain features like the ones we see here.

I personally think CO2 are a more likely explanation. This simply from looking at the martian temperature range. The surface are simply cold, and when we look underground it should be even colder in most places!
(This except any and still-not-found-despite-looking geotermal hotspots).
Colder conditions underground places the thermometer in the right range for frozen CO2, which happens at -78 °C.

Narrow cracks in the ground might become CO2 traps when the area chills down in the night. We also seen signs of karst topography in Meridiani, if that idea turns out to be correct there might even be larger caves where CO2 ice accumulate on the walls. When it melts at −57 °C there might not be space for it to expand and reach the gasous phase and so it rush towards the nearest opening - and so we have a gully.

So I am fairly in the same camp as deglr6328 on this one.

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

Liquid CO2 will not be possible in 'open air' with the Martian air as thin as it is, same as on Earth.
But nothing prevents liquid CO2 from being kept underground if it have a good nice aquifier or perhaps a lid of frozen water. Yes the pressure would be great, but this could also explain features like the ones we see here.

There are plausibility arguments against sequestration of liquid CO2 in the martian near-surface. For example, see Stewart and Nimmo [2002] (440 Kb PDF).

[Guest_Myran_*]

AlexBlackwell wrote: There are plausibility arguments against sequestration of liquid CO2 in the martian near-surface.

Thank you, and I took the time to speed read a part of that text you linked.

But you are absolutely right, I wrote about liquid CO2 in the first paragraph since that was what tuvas asked about.

But the following sentence lacks the word 'frozen' and should have read.
"I personally think frozen CO2 are a more likely explanation .......... at -78 °C."

(And for once I dont edit, since I got back to the subject so fast)

Finally I take the opportunity to link a text where the author points out that the gullies seems to appear on the slopes facing away from the sun. Something that again are one sign that we might not be seeing the activity of water here.

And then again another link to one text that also discuss the CO2 as one alternative explanation for the gullies. Liquid CO2, Not Water, Likely Created Martian Gullies

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

Finally I take the opportunity to link a text where the author points out that the gullies seems to appear on the slopes facing away from the sun.

Thanks, Myran. And yes, I'm familiar with Nick Hoffman's views.

[exoplanet]

"As Steve Squyres mentioned in response to a question at Open University, the "water" on mars is acidic and inhospitable to life. That suggests that this AP article may be premature.
Steve"

Ahem . . . but we have at least one if not many more examples . . . which proves that life in extemely acidic niches on earth is actually TEEMING with microbes.

Please see this article. If you need more, Steve . . . please let me know.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...MNGBCCCDD21.DTL

I hope that Steve Squires has at least noted recently that extremely acidic environments on earth are not barren of life but do support strong colonies of microorganisms. What this means on Mars should not preclude that life does not exist. To the contrary with regards to the recent images and future images to come:)

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

Emily now has a story online at TPS.

EDIT: As well as a blog entry.

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Dec 7 2006, 01:10 AM

[jamescanvin]

I hope that Steve Squires has at least noted recently that extremely acidic environments on earth are not barren of life but do support strong colonies of microorganisms. What this means on Mars should not preclude that life does not exist. To the contrary with regards to the recent images and future images to come:)

Have you watched/listened to SS talk at the OU? In the Q'n'A, when asked about the prospects of life he mentions that although life can survive well on earth in extremely acidic environments it is not clear that it can come into being in one. On earth, the microorganisms formed in a more benign environment and *then* evolved into being able to tolerate the harsh conditions.

[exoplanet]

Have you watched/listened to SS talk at the OU? "On earth, the microorganisms formed in a more benign environment and *then* evolved into being able to tolerate the harsh conditions."

The warm little pond theory may well be proven false in the near future. It has only been a theory that has to my knowledge "not" been proven. This basic article shows some of the current dissent among "the experts" about the origin of life:

http://www.economist.com/science/displayst...tory_id=5518892

The last two paragraphs are noteworthy. Regardless, whether life started on Earth in an acidic/basic hydrothermal spring, at the bottom of an early ocean in a hydrothermal vent, from a meterorite - the panspermia theory, or in a "warm little pond". The fact is we don't know. And we still don't know that much about Mars to make generalizations about whether or not if there was water on Mars - it was too acidic to inhibit the start of life there.

[tfisher]

This is really exciting. Oh, to have a rover there! Maybe MSL will manage to be in a gully-prone area to get an up close look at these things. Until we get a ground truth look at these flows, there will always be doubts on water vs. CO2 vs. dust. But it is really looking more and more like water, which is so much more than just plain interesting. Wow.

[jamescanvin]

The warm little pond theory may well be proven false in the near future. It has only been a theory that has to my knowledge "not" been proven.

Quite right I'm sure, I'm no expert on this.

All I was really trying to point out is that Steve Squyres has commented recently on this issue as you "hoped" and that that was (I think, I haven't had the chance to watch it again) his take on the matter.

[SteveM]

The warm little pond theory may well be proven false in the near future. It has only been a theory that has to my knowledge "not" been proven. This basic article shows some of the current dissent among "the experts" about the origin of life:

http://www.economist.com/science/displayst...tory_id=5518892

The last two paragraphs are noteworthy. Regardless, whether life started on Earth in an acidic/basic hydrothermal spring, at the bottom of an early ocean in a hydrothermal vent, from a meterorite - the panspermia theory, or in a "warm little pond". The fact is we don't know. And we still don't know that much about Mars to make generalizations about whether or not if there was water on Mars - it was too acidic to inhibit the start of life there.

As I read the Economist article, the point at issue there is hot or cold, not acidic or basic.

SS's comment, as I remember it, centered on the acidic environment. He suggested that while primitive life could develop in a neutral environment and then evolve a way to maintain an internal neutral state in acidic surroundings, this was not likely to happen from scratch in an acidic environment.

BTW Jim, do you happen to have a transcription of SS's OU talk? All I have is the audio file and I'd like to be able to search for the passages in question. (Even this Q & A would help).

Steve

[CosmicRocker]

I'm not tuvas. I'm not a vulcan, either, I'm an Ionian, and red-hot, ultramafic lava flows through my veins... My reaction was that this news was interesting and that I wanted to see those features in HiRISE images. But, no, I didn't get all that excited. Maybe it is my outer planets bias, but flowing, boiling acidic water just isn't as exciting as huge lava flows on Io, the Earth-like geology of Titan, the geysers of Triton, or I dare say, the ocean on Europa.

EDIT: I forgot Enceladus' geysers, how silly of me

Is there anyone here who will help me drag this poor, misguided individual behind the barn, where he can be taught a little bit of inner planet respect?

The warm little pond theory may well be proven false in the near future. It has only been a theory that has to my knowledge "not" been proven. ...

There is so much we probably don't know about life's origins. I figure, if there is hope for water, there is hope for life...

It wasn't so long ago that we all would have been jumping up and down about the discovery of any observed, recent change on Mars. I agree that these locations need to be be monitored with our newest orbiting instruments for verification, but hey, this is exciting news being released to commemorate the memory of a ten year veteran who has been lost in battle.

Let us all bow our heads in respect for a fallen comrade in arms.

[climber]

There is so much we probably don't know about life's origins. I figure, if there is hope for water, there is hope for life...

You know, what give me real hope is that, let say, 20 years ago, life on Earth and water on Mars were understood a way that as been totaly changed nowaday. There IS life in extreme on Earth, there IS water on Mars today. I'll not related these two facts, I understand there could even be some politics behind this, BUT I feel that we are moving in the direction of "possible" life on Mars NOW. This has the BIG advantage to shake the people that decide the direction of future Exploration programs and, yes, as tsfisher say, they'll may be direct MSL in a place where gullies will be reachable. In my opinion, this is good new because this is one of the goal of exploring Mars and who imagined 3 years ago, before Oppy proved that Meridianii once see water, before MGS found active gullies that we could be talking now of landing a rover in a "waterworld"?

[AndyG]

A question!

What's a likely figure for the viscosity of this water? I don't think I've ever seen viscosity estimates produced for (transient) liquid water in a Mars environment. Is it high (because the water's cold) or low (because it's near-boiling)?



Andy

[ustrax]

What triggers my imagination in this great discovery is not the gullies...
Is the place where they we're originated...
Beneath...What can hide beneath?

I'll just join the choir...What great days we are living!