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Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ Spirit _ To El Dorado...

Posted by: djellison Dec 24 2005, 06:15 PM

New SS Update - "December 23, 2005

Things have been going well at Gusev. We've spent most of the past week looking at a rock right next to Comanche that we call Comanche Spur. Like everything we've seen since we've descended off of Haskin Ridge, Comanche Spur has undergone very little alteration and has a lot of olivine in it. But the composition is different from what we saw at Seminole and Algonquin, so we seem to have yet another rock type at Gusev.

With the Comanche campaign wrapping up, it was decision time... Allegeny Ridge or El Dorado? We had a long meeting about that at mid-week, and the consensus decision was to head for El Dorado. We should begin the drive on about Sol 704, and we're hoping it will go quickly. Expect Spirit to do a lot of driving and (except at El Dorado) not much IDD work in the weeks ahead...."


704 is Boxing Day smile.gif

What do you think - El Dorado for New Year with a nice 6 x 3 pancam postcard....go on Jim, you know you want to wink.gif


Doug

Posted by: edstrick Dec 25 2005, 07:11 AM

I keep waiting for somebody who's had a few nachos too many to refer to the next target as "el Dorito", and then somebody to get inventive with Photoshop...

Posted by: dvandorn Dec 25 2005, 08:18 AM

Ah, the basal geology now becomes apparent. Home Plate isn't an ancient, eroded crater remnant -- it's a salsa bowl!

-the other Doug

Posted by: ustrax Dec 26 2005, 12:20 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 24 2005, 06:15 PM)
New SS Update - "December 23, 2005
We had a long meeting about that at mid-week, and the consensus decision was to head for El Dorado."


*


And wasn't that the best Xmas gift I could have this year?
Yes yes it was...
rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Toma B Dec 26 2005, 03:41 PM

QUOTE
From S.S. update:
...We should begin the drive on about Sol 704, and we're hoping it will go quickly. Expect Spirit to do a lot of driving and (except at El Dorado) not much IDD work in the weeks ahead...."

Looks like that long drives started...

Is that Commanche rear hazcams view?

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 26 2005, 04:24 PM

Seems to be. Here is a current NavCam showing Eldorado without Comanche in the way...

--Bill

Posted by: Toma B Dec 26 2005, 05:16 PM

O.K.
There are few new pictures at exploratorium including this one showing Commanche behind...


Posted by: edstrick Dec 27 2005, 08:57 AM

Dvandorn: "Ah, the basal geology now becomes apparent. Home Plate isn't an ancient, eroded crater remnant -- it's a salsa bowl!"

Unfortunately, Spirit isn't instrumented for Guacamole!

Posted by: ustrax Dec 27 2005, 10:45 AM

Spirit drived a lot...It stopped at about...1/3 of the way to El Dorado?
It wouldn't surprise if when today images arrive we were facing the Undae...

Posted by: ustrax Dec 27 2005, 02:50 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 27 2005, 10:45 AM)
Spirit drived a lot...It stopped at about...1/3 of the way to El Dorado?
It wouldn't surprise if when today images arrive we were facing the Undae...
*


One more stretch and...

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-12-27/2N188959784EFFAKSRP0755L0M1.JPG

This was the Sol Spirit crossed the border between light and shadow...We are now in Ultreya ground...
I'm happy! rolleyes.gif

Isn't all that sand a beauty?...

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-12-27/2P188960136EFFAKSRP2427L7M1.JPG

Posted by: Burmese Dec 27 2005, 02:51 PM

Now can they resist the urge to stop at that outcrop between Spirit's current position and El Dorado and just keep on driving?

Posted by: ustrax Dec 27 2005, 02:55 PM

QUOTE (Burmese @ Dec 27 2005, 02:51 PM)
Now can they resist the urge to stop at that outcrop between Spirit's current position and El Dorado and just keep on driving?
*


I believe it will be a non-stop driving till El Dorado...

Posted by: sattrackpro Dec 27 2005, 02:56 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 27 2005, 03:45 AM)
Spirit drived a lot...It stopped at about...1/3 of the way to El Dorado?
It wouldn't surprise if when today images arrive we were facing the Undae...
*

As of 12/17/2005 posting on exploatorium it looks like the dunes of El Dorado are no more than a few feet away.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-12-27/2N188959784EFFAKSRP0755L0M1.JPG

Posted by: ustrax Dec 27 2005, 03:15 PM

Look what is left from the Ultreya cerimonial totem... ph34r.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/ustrax/uh.jpg



laugh.gif tongue.gif laugh.gif

original here:
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-12-27/2P188960293EFFAKSRP2427L7M1.JPG

Posted by: mhoward Dec 27 2005, 04:03 PM

Sol 705
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78052025&size=o http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78052049&size=l

Posted by: Toma B Dec 27 2005, 04:09 PM

Quick stich in Autostich....Ultreya, El Dorado whatever... biggrin.gif


Posted by: kanalje Dec 27 2005, 09:55 PM

Well, this is looking like it could be plenty fun, this! rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Marz Dec 27 2005, 10:00 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 27 2005, 09:15 AM)
Look what is left from the Ultreya cerimonial totem...  ph34r.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/ustrax/uh.jpg
laugh.gif  tongue.gif  laugh.gif


Wow! The Other Face of Mars! cool.gif

Nice to see Spirit breaking new ground!

Posted by: Tesheiner Dec 27 2005, 10:25 PM

Parallax measurements for sol 704 and 705 drives give me about 50m on each sol.
BTW, I posted an updated route map on its respective thread.

Posted by: Oersted Dec 27 2005, 11:52 PM

Maybe the team is hoping for a cleaning event near El Dorado, could be a golden opportunity for that, if the dune field is a sign of a windy area. Would it be? Or would it rather be the opposite?

This is my first Spirit-board posting btw, greetings all, I'm a Rover nut from Denmark!

Posted by: Bob Shaw Dec 28 2005, 12:38 AM

I suspect that Eldorado will - for reasons of Rover safety - be given a fairly wide berth. It looks rather like the sort of classic rover trap we've seen before, and hardly worth attention if Home Plate (and beyond) is to be reached.

BUT...

...Eldorado *does* provide a great opportunity (oops) for some crater counting. If Gusev has anything like the number of mini-craters which we've seen on the other side of Mars, then it really suggests an aerial origin for the wee holes - and, if not, it suggests that something under the surface is responsible. Eldorado is the first Meridiani-like bit of Gusev we've seen...

Bob Shaw

Posted by: DFinfrock Dec 28 2005, 02:44 AM

QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Dec 28 2005, 12:38 AM)
I suspect that Eldorado will - for reasons of Rover safety - be given a fairly wide berth.  It looks rather like the sort of classic rover trap we've seen before, and hardly worth attention if Home Plate (and beyond) is to be reached.

Bob Shaw
*


It looks to me that there is such a sharp edge to the dune/ripple field, that it should be no problem to drive right up to the first ripple, extend the arm, and examine it closely, without actually placing a wheel into the sand itself.

David

Posted by: mhoward Dec 28 2005, 03:07 AM

Some Sol 705 anaglyphs:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78290850&size=l http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78290924&context=photostream&size=l
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78291191&context=photostream&size=o

Posted by: dot.dk Dec 28 2005, 08:40 AM

QUOTE (Oersted @ Dec 27 2005, 11:52 PM)
This is my first Spirit-board posting btw, greetings all, I'm a Rover nut from Denmark!
*


About time we got some more Great Danes in here! laugh.gif



Welcome aboard wink.gif

Posted by: Tman Dec 28 2005, 12:03 PM

http://home.shinternet.ch/gp/spirit/2P188589956-89L456_av.jpg (RGB from sol 701, only brightness increased)

That's really odd. If we have here a gathering place of fine sand particles, why this change in color?


Welcome Oersted! smile.gif

Posted by: dvandorn Dec 28 2005, 12:08 PM

Yeah -- unlike some of the other dark spots in the orbital imagery, this (and other black-sand deposits like it) truly appear as dark from the surface as they do from orbit.

I would *have* to think that there is some major compositional difference between the dark sands and the surrounding rocks and soils, to account for the dramatically darker appearance. The fact that the dark sand patches seem to be in the wind shadows of the hills *seems* to explain them as dust fall-out from prevailing winds -- but that then begs the question as to why there should be a major compositional difference between the particles that fall out in such conditions and the particles that have been wind-deposited into the surrounding soils.

-the other Doug

Posted by: djellison Dec 28 2005, 12:09 PM

I dont think it is fine particles. I imagine it is sand, darker basaltic sand. The lighter coloured, beigey dust remaining suspended in the air while darker particles get dropped as the wind stalls over the hill

Doug

Posted by: edstrick Dec 28 2005, 12:35 PM

There is a lot of really not-understood sorting and mixing processes of "dusts", "sands" and "composit particles" on Mars. The only reasonably well understood material in fact may be the dark sands of places like el Dorito\\\\\\Dorado, because well sorted clean mineral-grain sands are relatively uncomplicated and well understood. Sorting may be both mechanical and electrostatic, grains of dust can aggregate and aggegrates can break up, etc. I simply do not understand a lot of the subtle but complex color variations on soils and rocks due to dust and sands and who-knows that I've been seeing since the first Viking pictures.

Posted by: David Dec 28 2005, 01:18 PM

Is the color-contrast seen at El Dorado similar, though on a smaller scale, to the large-scale albedo differences that have been observed on Mars for centuries? If so, it would be of considerable interest to examine the properties of the darker sand, and -- if Spirit keeps El Dorado in view for some time -- to watch for any changes in its distribution over time.

Posted by: Tman Dec 28 2005, 01:21 PM

When I have a look at this http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=1506&view=findpost&p=25719 from Nico, I get too the impression that this dark sand is a deposit of heavier particels when wind comes (from (north-) west I guess) over the hills and blows down material from them. So the lighter material blows farther than the heavier. smile.gif

Maybe it's also an electrostatic process that the heavier particles get aggregate together when flying...?

Posted by: ustrax Dec 28 2005, 01:49 PM

I see it like this, winds coming from SE, bringing lighter particles and volcanic sand, climbing the slope.
In the place where now we see the dark sand, there is a wall on the western side keeping the volcanic sand imprisioned but letting the lighter particles follow their way, following the direction of the winds, quoting Steve Squyres, an 'eolian cul-de-sac'.
So, if analyzing that El Dorado dark deposits, it wouldn't surprise that Spirit would find mainly micro basaltic pieces, crystals and lots of olivine, the composition of volcanic sand.
Well, just a guess... wink.gif

Posted by: djellison Dec 28 2005, 01:51 PM

The prevailing wind is from the NNW however, look at all the DD tracks crossing Gusev Crater

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/01/02/2004.01.02.R1101577.jpg

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Dec 28 2005, 02:05 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 28 2005, 01:51 PM)
The prevailing wind is from the NNW however, look at all the DD tracks crossing Gusev Crater

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/01/02/2004.01.02.R1101577.jpg

Doug
*


Yes Doug I know...But I find strange that if the sand was being brought from NNW then we would see dark material in a wider area right under the summits...And we see it only in that hill corner...
And Steve Squyres, on a question I made, answered that the El Dorado material had 'probably just climbed a hill slope'...
Soon we'll have more answers...

Posted by: ustrax Dec 28 2005, 02:08 PM

Just forgot this, talking about volcanic sand patterns:

http://www.edgypix.com/pages/torf0706.shtml

Have some similarities, doesn't it?

Posted by: helvick Dec 28 2005, 02:22 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 28 2005, 03:05 PM)
Yes Doug I know...But I find strange that if the sand was being brought from NNW then we would see dark material in a wider area right under the summits...And we see it only in that hill corner...
*

I think we are talking about two different seasonal wind systems. I know nothing about the prevailing winds in Gusev but I'm pretty sure there are global changes in the average wind direction between Southern Hemisphere Summer (DD Season, NNW tracks) and winter (SSW would make sense but the local geography might seriously change that and the overall impact of the martian global weather system most certainly creates trade wind bands which might reverse these).
This is just my gut feel for the thing, SH Winter, polar regions cool substantially and pressure rises leading to predominantly Southerly wind (source) directions and this would reverse in NH winter. The global imbalance in Martian seasons would play an important role as the SH Winter effects are less extreme and shorter.

Posted by: ustrax Dec 28 2005, 02:26 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 28 2005, 02:08 PM)
Just forgot this, talking about volcanic sand patterns:

http://www.edgypix.com/pages/torf0706.shtml

Have some similarities, doesn't it?
*


Let's see if you can understand what I'm trying to say...
I think that the volcanic sand was trapped in a depression (not-an-abyss!) existing between the western wall and where now lays the boundary between the light and dark material (in reddish tone), brought from winds (direction indicated by the arrows) from the floor of the basin...
The area covered by light material (in brownish tones) worked as a road to perdition to that poor dark sand.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/ustrax/pw.jpg

Posted by: RNeuhaus Dec 28 2005, 02:36 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 28 2005, 09:05 AM)
Yes Doug I know...But I find strange that if the sand was being brought from NNW then we would see dark material in a wider area right under the summits...And we see it only in that hill corner...
And Steve Squyres, on a question I made, answered that the El Dorado material had 'probably just climbed a hill slope'...
Soon we'll have more answers...
*

Hello, the answer will be by looking the formation of dunes. The dunes always forms in perpendicular angle to the prevailing winds. Very soon we are going to confirm about this whenever Sprit takes a much better view and angle picture. Up to now, there are still no good pictures to see about this.

Rodolfo

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 28 2005, 02:53 PM

QUOTE
The dunes always forms in perpendicular angle to the prevailing winds.


Not always. This is true with transverse dunes, but not with longitudinal or reversing dunes.

I think that the answer will be complex. Is this area the result of selective winnowing or deposition of the dark sand because of a unique wind pattern caused by orographic effects, or is it caused because the source material for the sand is _at_ this location, or both? We need MIs of the sand, and minerology.

Note other "dark sand" examples in the Northeast Basin and another spot to the south of the Inner Basin. Start picking up clues: from the current route, what is the local wind direction?


--Bill

Posted by: Bob Shaw Dec 28 2005, 03:33 PM

QUOTE (DFinfrock @ Dec 28 2005, 03:44 AM)
It looks to me that there is such a sharp edge to the dune/ripple field, that it should be no problem to drive right up to the first ripple, extend the arm, and examine it closely, without actually placing a wheel into the sand itself.

David
*


David:

Very true!

And, returning to the subject of the holes which Opportunity has seen, it'd be an ideal way for that counting exercise. I've also had another bright idea - this time, perhaps in the Ted Stryk / Phil Stooke Department of Old Data: Viking 1 saw some drifts, which Ted has turned into super-res images on his website. I can't see any, but has anyone else spotted any holes? If they're not visible at Gusev when we see El Dorado up close, possibly not visible at Chryse in old images BUT visible at Meridiani then we're seeing either a 'special' impact event (which I'd be leery of, though obviously it might happen) or something inherent in the Meridiani environment...

Ted's website is at: http://pages.preferred.com/~tedstryk/

Bob Shaw

Posted by: antoniseb Dec 28 2005, 04:09 PM

QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Dec 28 2005, 10:33 AM)
If they're not visible at Gusev when we see El Dorado up close, possibly not visible at Chryse in old images BUT visible at Meridiani then we're seeing either a 'special' impact event (which I'd be leery of, though obviously it might happen) or something inherent in the Meridiani environment...
*


It's worth trying to count them per square meter. We've seen images of a lot of square meters of dust-piles at Meridiani, and not nearly so many at Gusev, no mater whether we look at ALL of El Dorado or not. If the images from Chryse show even one, it will be a lucky chance.

Posted by: ustrax Dec 28 2005, 04:23 PM

New maps up:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/tm-spirit/index.html

Posted by: ustrax Dec 28 2005, 04:41 PM

Ladies & Gentlemen...
We have arrived!:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-12-28/2N189046343EFFAL00P0775L0M1.JPG

biggrin.gif

Posted by: dot.dk Dec 28 2005, 04:50 PM

WOW!!! blink.gif

That IS amazing!! Looks greeeeeat!

This is a great end to 2005! Happy New Year! biggrin.gif

Posted by: dot.dk Dec 28 2005, 04:51 PM

LOOK at that! ohmy.gif




Posted by: ustrax Dec 28 2005, 04:54 PM

QUOTE (dot.dk @ Dec 28 2005, 04:51 PM)
LOOK at that!  ohmy.gif

*


Wasn't it supposed to stay just at the 'shore'?
Spirit just couldn't resist to refresh her wheels... smile.gif

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-12-28/2N189046532EFFAL00P0775L0M1.JPG

Don't swim to far away honey! huh.gif

Posted by: Tesheiner Dec 28 2005, 05:00 PM

The full 360º navcam panorama.

(390k)

PD: Where are the beers? biggrin.gif

Posted by: helvick Dec 28 2005, 05:08 PM

Anybody else able to see qualitative differences in the material wrt Meridiani and in the other sand traps we saw on the south side o' the hill? Contrary to my expectation this seems to be very fine dust that slumps very easily rather than larger grains but I presume we'll need to see some MI's before making any claims about that.

Posted by: ustrax Dec 28 2005, 05:09 PM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Dec 28 2005, 05:00 PM)
The full 360º navcam panorama.

PD: Where are the beers?  biggrin.gif
*


I've got one already!
We all deserve one!!! biggrin.gif

Hey doesn't this sound like a POOOF!?

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-12-28/2N189047354EFFAL00P1975L0M1.JPG

Posted by: jabe Dec 28 2005, 05:10 PM

you guys are toooo fast tongue.gif
was going to say the images are here but a pan is already up...
looks enticing..

Posted by: mhoward Dec 28 2005, 05:18 PM

Yeah, what was somebody saying about just skirting the edge? biggrin.gif This place looks a bit surreal!

Some additional quick views (more at the Flickr site):

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78537312&size=l http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78537193&context=photostream&size=l http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78541026&size=l

Posted by: RNeuhaus Dec 28 2005, 05:19 PM

Brahma beer must be inside of El Dorado biggrin.gif So Spirit must dig looking for that!

Rodolfo

Posted by: RNeuhaus Dec 28 2005, 05:25 PM

QUOTE (helvick @ Dec 28 2005, 12:08 PM)
Anybody else able to see qualitative differences in the material wrt Meridiani and in the other sand traps we saw on the south side o' the hill? Contrary to my expectation this seems to be very fine dust that slumps very easily rather than larger grains but I presume we'll need to see some MI's before making any claims about that.
*

Indeed yes, the sand is a fine grain and it is generaly very compact and it is much better for traction than a thick sand that is generally is looser than a fine ones which is found in the Meridiani Planum where Opportunity was sunk.

The prominent wind comes from the north west. The wind coming from the north strikes the Husband Hill and continues blowing around this hill. There are two sizes of ripples: bigger and smaller. Both have different angles. The biggest ripples are run from the hill to base in more or less parallel lines and the smaller ripples are build by soft winds comming from North West and runs in 150 angle degree ( \| )from the biggest ripples running from Hill to base.

Rodolfo

P.D. Hope for MI to see if there are dust.

Posted by: Burmese Dec 28 2005, 05:53 PM

Spirit scooted several meters right into the stuff! I wonder if they just felt brave and cranked up the slip sensitivity level and told her to go at it.

Posted by: djellison Dec 28 2005, 05:58 PM

A full NC mosaic instead of a partial + few L7/R1 PC frames suggests that this is

- a new 'site'
- somewhere they instead to camp for a few days

But...umm..yeah, we're here smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: silylene Dec 28 2005, 05:59 PM

QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Dec 28 2005, 05:19 PM)
Indeed yes, the sand is a fine grain and it is generaly very compact and it is much better for traction than a thick sand that is generally is looser than a fine ones which is found in the Meridiani Planum where Opportunity was sunk.


No microcraters. Odd. With the frequency we saw them at Meridiani, we should've seen a few by now.

Posted by: djellison Dec 28 2005, 06:02 PM

No microcraters suggests, one presumes at the macro scale as well as the planetary scale, that it is a younger surface -and that aeolian activity at Meridiani is a much slower process than here at El Dorado

Doug

Posted by: silylene Dec 28 2005, 06:08 PM

QUOTE (silylene @ Dec 28 2005, 05:59 PM)
No microcraters.  Odd.  With the frequency we saw them at Meridiani, we should've seen a few by now.
*


Agreed, that is the most likely explanation. How do the frequency of dustdevils compare between the two locations?

Posted by: mars loon Dec 28 2005, 06:18 PM

QUOTE (Burmese @ Dec 28 2005, 05:53 PM)
Spirit scooted several meters right into the stuff!  I wonder if they just felt brave and cranked up the slip sensitivity level and told her to go at it.
*

This is amazing and surreal.

Truly deserving of "Unlike anything ....."

As the "blue collar" rover twin, Spirit is absolutely fearless !!

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 28 2005, 07:26 PM

That was quick. I'm speechless.

The "dark sand" material seems to be less cohesive than the Meridiani sand. The surface seems "fresher" and more wind-blown, which may be a side-effect of not having the protective blueberry pavement. The wind direction seems to be quite variable and the wind seems turbulent, as suggested by the ripple patterns.

Wow. Strange stuff. We'll know more soon-- she dug a trench and is likely unfurling the IDD as we type.

--Bill

Posted by: Shaka Dec 28 2005, 07:40 PM

YEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!!!!
laugh.gif laugh.gif

Com'on in everybody! The sand is FINE!

"OH, Over The Mountains of the MOOOON
Down the Valley of Shaaadowww
RIDE, BOLDLY RIDE!!!!

Last one to the other SIDE!!! laugh.gif biggrin.gif tongue.gif laugh.gif biggrin.gif

Posted by: ToSeek Dec 28 2005, 07:41 PM

QUOTE (Burmese @ Dec 28 2005, 05:53 PM)
Spirit scooted several meters right into the stuff!  I wonder if they just felt brave and cranked up the slip sensitivity level and told her to go at it.
*


Either that, or some rover operator is going "oops!" about now. wink.gif

Posted by: Tesheiner Dec 28 2005, 08:28 PM

Looking uphill, the interface between the dunes to the left -- they look like powder -- and the "normal" terrain to the right can be easily identified.

The question is why this abrupt interface?

Posted by: Tesheiner Dec 28 2005, 08:33 PM

QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Dec 28 2005, 06:19 PM)
Brahma beer must be inside of El Dorado  biggrin.gif  So Spirit must dig looking for that!

Rodolfo
*


OT: Do you know how many years since my last Brahma?

Posted by: Tman Dec 28 2005, 08:35 PM

biggrin.gif

wink.gif But such "oops!" would be probably his/her last word as operator...


QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 28 2005, 08:26 PM)
The "dark sand" material seems to be less cohesive than the Meridiani sand. The surface seems "fresher" and more wind-blown

Yea, and it seems the fine material is only a few centimeters thick and lies directly over the hard ground of this hill side.

Posted by: Burmese Dec 28 2005, 08:39 PM

The twitchy track Spirit left entering the dunes suggest she was on autopilot, not a commanded drive. They probably had her start advancing cautiously on auto pilot a meter or so before the dunes and she went the maximum distance permitted by her instructions without any aborted stops, then finished with a turn to maximize communications.

Posted by: RNeuhaus Dec 28 2005, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Dec 28 2005, 03:28 PM)
Looking uphill, the interface between the dunes to the left -- they look like powder -- and the "normal" terrain to the right can be easily identified.

The question is why this abrupt interface?
*

The limit line between two different morphology terrain is caused by the aeolian factor. That is strange line but this limit is not black and white rather than a gradual change of morphology. After the line, the terrain is plain is where there is no much wind to form ripples.
QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Dec 28 2005, 03:33 PM)
OT: Do you know how many years since my last Brahma?

No one idea. I suspect that you missed it much, so your last drinking time might be few years ago? If not drinking, perhaps, you might have bought it in any supermarket around in Spain. It is so good that after drinking one, ones starts to brama wink.gif (dance wildely)

What does O.T. mean? (One Tought?)

Rodolfo

Posted by: RNeuhaus Dec 28 2005, 09:18 PM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 28 2005, 02:26 PM)
The "dark sand" material seems to be less cohesive than the Meridiani sand. 
*

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78537312&size=l
It is not certain. You can see the Spirit tracks which is less deep than ones of Meridiani when Oppy traveled over ripples. Of course, on paved bluberries is more compact but the Meridiani ripples are looser.
QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 28 2005, 02:26 PM)
The surface seems "fresher" and more wind-blown, which may be a side-effect of not having the protective blueberry pavement. 
*

I agree it.
QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 28 2005, 02:26 PM)
The wind direction seems to be quite variable and the wind seems turbulent, as suggested by the ripple patterns.
*

Not much turbulent since there are two types of ripples: small and large. If there are turbulent, then there won't have any ripples since the turbulent wind will sweep all sides like a broom. Otherwise, the small ripples is more or less alineated in parallel line but but different line to the larger ripples. Among large ripples are more or less in parallel line.

Rodolfo

Posted by: RNeuhaus Dec 29 2005, 04:00 AM


The sand is so fine and compact. Very different than ones of Meridiani Planum which is grainer and loose. I am comparing it with ones on the top of ripples. It would be very nice to submerge ithe black sand since it shall be warmer than the outside. They must be lighter and softer and must be the result of aeolian factor.

After that, will Spirit head toward the Aleghaney (not sure about its spelling but it looks almost alike) or Home Plate?

Rodolfo

Posted by: CosmicRocker Dec 29 2005, 06:12 AM

It's always so fun to see something new. I was trying to guess the prevailing (average) wind direction at this location, after being asked about it by a friend. Sometimes it is obvious, but sometimes these Martian ripples confuse me.

One would normally expect that the windblown grains are pushed up a gentler slope, collect temporarily at the crest, and then cascade down the steeper slip slope on the leeward side, when the angle of repose is exceeded. Assuming that the steeper slopes of the ripples should be the leeward ones, it would appear that the prevailing wind is coming up the valley, roughly from the west. Could dust devils rounding the corner from the plains have a role in the formation of these dark deposits?

It sure would be nice to know something about the composition/density of these grains. We'll probably see some MIs, but how long might it be before someone leaks some information from the spectrometers?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 29 2005, 07:16 AM

Here is Tesheiner's nice pan in polar projection.

Phil



Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 29 2005, 09:16 AM

Thanks, Phil, I've been waiting for one of your polars.

I'm confused by these duneforms and the suggested wind directions. It seems to be coming from every which a-way and is not the usual neat laminar flows we are accustomed to. What I'm thinking is that the topography causes the wind to "swirl" and create a "vortex" over El Dorado.

Yeah, a Vortex. Right.

It's too late... biggrin.gif

--Bill

Posted by: abalone Dec 29 2005, 09:25 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 29 2005, 06:16 PM)
Here is Tesheiner's nice pan in polar projection.

Phil



*

I dont often comment on photos....

....... but that's spectacular smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Posted by: abalone Dec 29 2005, 09:28 AM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 29 2005, 08:16 PM)
Thanks, Phil, I've been waiting for one of your polars.

I'm confused by these duneforms and the suggested wind directions.  It seems to be coming from every which a-way and is not the usual neat laminar flows we are accustomed to.  What I'm thinking is that the topography causes the wind to "swirl" and create a "vortex" over El Dorado. 

Yeah, a http://www.oregonvortex.com/.

It's too late...  biggrin.gif

--Bill
*

I suggested a while ago in another thread that these dark patches and on slopes facing the summer sun seem to be the places that many DDs originate so I agree with you that this might be the case

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 29 2005, 09:32 AM

Here is a .pdf of a paper on "Transverse Aeolian Ridges" which is relevant to what we see at El Dorado. Sorry, I've misplaced the source URL.

--Bill

Posted by: ustrax Dec 29 2005, 10:04 AM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 29 2005, 09:16 AM)
Thanks, Phil, I've been waiting for one of your polars.

I'm confused by these duneforms and the suggested wind directions.  It seems to be coming from every which a-way and is not the usual neat laminar flows we are accustomed to.  What I'm thinking is that the topography causes the wind to "swirl" and create a "vortex" over El Dorado. 

--Bill
*


A vortex?...Curious...When I first thought and wrote something about Ultreya, on the distant 3rd of April, 2004, my idea, looking at the satellite images was around that... A spiral...
A bit of Ultreya archeology... smile.gif :

'Then I went to the bathroom and when I was taking a pee [?!] something caught my attention: the path followed by the liquid in the toilette inclination: it reached the wall, made a spiral from the hit spot to right and then to left and finally down the drain?
Something hit me?What if the Ultreya Abyss worked has the toilette?
If it did there must be a path leading to the crater and another one to drain the water out, not down the toilette but back to the supposed Gusev Lake. Checking the available images I could say it seems like this to me, those canals or sea arms are there.
The Ultreya Abyss was, for millions of years escavated by flowing water and, in my opinion has a minimum 100mts deep, and, has consequence of this movement sediments were deposited there in huge quantities.Resuming, Gusev was in fact a lake with tides, and the Ultreya Abyss worked as a crossroad of those waters, like a heart, receiving and releasing the waters, that at a time, entered the crater coming from the MA'Adim Valley.'


Well...No abyss, but it was quite a journey... biggrin.gif

Posted by: djellison Dec 29 2005, 11:05 AM

From the pancam site, it looks like an MI mosaic, then the Mossbauer onto the sand, with some next-drive-direction-Pancam imaging ( one assumes slightly left of straight toward HP)

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Dec 29 2005, 11:28 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 29 2005, 11:05 AM)
From the pancam site, it looks like an MI mosaic, then the Mossbauer onto the sand, with some next-drive-direction-Pancam imaging ( one assumes slightly left of straight toward HP)

Doug
*


Maybe there will be time to visit Allegheny...who knows?...The descent from El Dorado seems easy...

Now looking at some oldies...
Is it possible that sight we have now from the Ultreya area and the El Dorado dunes might not be permanent but seasonal?

http://www.zippyvideos.com/5077374292903756/u-ed/

Posted by: ustrax Dec 29 2005, 11:47 AM

This criteria for naming places in Ultreya is just being a mystic delight... smile.gif
There is somewhere there a target called Seven Cities...
(706 11:41:12 p2534.15. 1 0 0 0 0 13 13 pancam_Seven_Cities_L234567Rall)
Utopias? I believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilia

'A Portuguese legend tells how the island was settled by the Archbishop of Porto accompanied by six bishops and their parishioners in either 714 or 734 in the face of the Moorish conquest of Iberia. The archbishop and bishops each founded a city, known as Aira, Anhuib, Ansalli, Ansesseli, Ansodi, Ansolli and Con. A similar Spanish tradition claims that these bishops were all Spanish. The Irish also have the very same tradition, which they ascribe to St Brendan, a real Irish saint to whom many such mythical feats are attributed.'

Now...This are great names to seed around the area... smile.gif

7 Cities, linked to a country of discoverers by legend on the 707th Spirit Sol...
What an experience for a guy from that same country who's birthday is on the 7th day of the 7th month, for my own sake I'm glad I'm not a numerologist... laugh.gif

Oh...One more...:

In Brief:

Marcos de Niza was the first explorer to report the Seven Cities of Cibola, and his report launched the Coronado expedition.

Marcos de Niza was a priest who was sent north from Mexico City by Viceroy Mendoza in 1538-39 to search for wealthy cities that were rumored to be somewhere north of the frontier of New Spain. In early 1539 he left the frontier at Compostela and journeyed north into the unknown for several months. In the summer of 1539 he returned and wrote a report saying he had discovered the cities – in a province called Cibola (the present-day native American pueblo of Zuni, New Mexico). He said he reached the first city and saw it from a distance, but because his companion had been killed there, he returned without entering it.

Most popular writers claim Marcos reported gold in Cibola, but his original report says nothing about gold. Nonetheless, conquistadors in Mexico city were exited by his news and assumed Cibola would be as wealthy as the conquered Aztec empire. Marcos led Coronado's army back to Cibola the next year, in 1540, but he became the scapegoat when Cibola turned out to have no gold, and the soldiers said he was a liar.

The big mystery about Marcos is whether he told the truth. Historians have argued for centuries about whether Marcos – a priest with a good reputation – simply interviewed some natives near the present border, and turned back without seeing Cibola. Also at issue: did he promote the rumors that Cibola was full of gold? Several prominent 20th century historians concluded Marcos did not have time to reach Cibola in 1539. They said he made up a fraudulent report as part of a conspiracy with Viceroy Mendoza to encourage the conquest of the north. Other historians have defended him.'

http://www.psi.edu/coronado/journeyofmarcosdeniza.html

Compostela...Ultreya and a fool had to appear somehow... laugh.gif

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 29 2005, 11:48 AM

No, no, no. Not that horsepucky.


By vortex I meant a persistent swirl or eddy in the airflow caused by orographic effects.

--Bill

Posted by: ustrax Dec 29 2005, 12:58 PM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 29 2005, 11:48 AM)
No, no, no. Not that horsepucky.

--Bill
*


It looks like you didn't receive this for Xmas...
http://www.arts.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2005/11/06/botru06.xml&sSheet=/arts/2005/11/06/bomain.html

Posted by: Tesheiner Dec 29 2005, 02:36 PM

QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Dec 28 2005, 10:09 PM)
No one idea. I suspect that you missed it much, so your last drinking time might be few years ago? If not drinking, perhaps, you might have bought it in any supermarket around in Spain. It is so good that after drinking one, ones starts to brama  wink.gif  (dance wildely) 

What does O.T. mean? (One Tought?)

Rodolfo
*


I've never found Brazilian beer here in Spain.

OT = Off Topic. Anything that is not related to the thread.

Posted by: ustrax Dec 29 2005, 03:46 PM

I'm a bit lost here...Are we already at the basin? Or beyond El Dorado?...:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-12-29/

Posted by: Burmese Dec 29 2005, 03:50 PM

I don't think they moved Just scanning the features to the south between current position and Home Plate but left and short of it.

Posted by: ustrax Dec 29 2005, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (Burmese @ Dec 29 2005, 03:50 PM)
I don't think they moved  Just scanning the features to the south between current position and Home Plate but left and short of it.
*


Yes, South, but the features look really close to have been taken from the same location...Maybe a mega-panorama from there is on the way...

Posted by: djellison Dec 29 2005, 04:55 PM

Very coarse grained stuff...

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/micro_imager/2005-12-29/2M189124948EFFAL00P2937M2M1.JPG

Doug

Posted by: mhoward Dec 29 2005, 05:03 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 29 2005, 04:04 PM)
Yes, South, but the features look really close to have been taken from the same location...Maybe a mega-panorama from there is on the way...
*


No, they haven't moved, they're just looking south(ish), as Burmese said.

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78969536&size=l
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78968047&size=l&context=photostream http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78968078&context=photostream&size=l http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=78968012&context=photostream&size=l

Posted by: jabe Dec 29 2005, 05:05 PM

Will fine grain sands be underneath? Great sandbox for kids to play in but not for rovers... biggrin.gif

Posted by: GregJG Dec 29 2005, 05:40 PM

I am not a geologist; but, the sharp El Dorado boundry demarkation and elevation bothers me. This looks to me more like a deposit from the weathering of a large central mass "crumbling" and flowing down and outward. Since there appear to be numerous similar deposits in the area (all on the southerly sides of local bluffs), could these have resulted from a relatively recent low elevation southerly desentigrating meteor(?) strike with large exposed chunks of this distinct material weathering into these "piles"? If the weathered particles were too coarse/heavy to be picked up by the prevailing winds, the localization and demarkation would persist and if relatively recent, the deposits would not yet be covered by the local dust. If not of meteoric origin, the masses could have been present in the hills and recently weathered out with the same result. Make any sense? Perhaps compositional analysis will tell.

Greg

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 29 2005, 06:38 PM

QUOTE
am not a geologist; but, the sharp El Dorado boundry demarkation and elevation bothers me. This looks to me more like a deposit from the weathering of a large central mass "crumbling" and flowing down and outward.


I am, and the morphology of this spot is bothersome. I can believe in wind deposition, but the boundary is remarkably sharp, and the material is being deposited on a slope and seems to be moving downslope. I'm leaning more and more in the direction of the source of dark sand being at the head of the slope.

"I think that the answer will be complex. Is this area the result of selective winnowing or deposition of the dark sand because of a unique wind pattern caused by orographic effects, or is it caused because the source material for the sand is _at_ this location, or both? We need MIs of the sand, and minerology."

Looking at the first MIs of the dark sand today, my first impression is that it looks very similar to the last MIs Spirit did at the dark rock at Comanche Spur. Are deeply weathered and crumbling outcrops of this material present at El Dorado, with the dark sand winnowed and concentrated by unique aeolian conditions?

This is indeed an odd area.

--Bill

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 30 2005, 01:19 AM

Here is a 1x2 mosaic of two of the MI images from Spirit today. I think that I have it oriented correctly, although I have no idea exactly where this spot is located in today's hazcam view.

The upper part of this pan is the undisturbed ripple surface, the dark slope is the cut from the rover wheel and the material in the lower part is sand churned by the wheel.

--Bill

Posted by: dvandorn Dec 30 2005, 06:05 AM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 29 2005, 12:38 PM)
...Are deeply weathered and crumbling outcrops of this material present at El Dorado, with the dark sand winnowed and concentrated by unique aeolian conditions?
*

I posted this idea quite a while back, somewhere in the many, many posts I've made at this forum. I fear it would take hours for me to try and fine it, so I'll just re-state it.

I had been looking at the orbital imagery and commented that I thought I saw a series of bench-like outcrops along the side of the hill that seemed to border the upslope side of the dark-material field. It looked to me like the benches could be the source of the dark material, since they seemed to be just as dark as the rest of the field. I was arguing that this seemed to be unique material -- much, much darker and less red than everything around it (which, we now see, it surely is).

I proposed that the dark beds could be the eroded remnants of a layer of lacustrine materials, uplfted at the base of the hills. And I thought that made what has now been named El Dorado a prime target for investigation.

I may be wrong about the lacustrine origin, but I'm surely glad we're checking it out! I would also hope that a mini-TES from this spot would be able to characterize the outctops we *do* see at the far extent of the dark sand field as either the source of the dark sand, or definitely *not* its source.

In any event, we need a decent shot at the mineralogy here, to constrain any assumptions on the origin of these sands. Until we get that, this discussion is pretty much in the energetic-arm-waving phase.

However it comes out, this is a very exciting process!

-the other Doug

Posted by: CosmicRocker Dec 30 2005, 06:52 AM

The individual grains are quite well rounded, which would argue for them having travelled quite a distance and for a long time, unless they were already well rounded before eroding from an outcrop that is nearby. The former is more likely.

I think these could be the transverse aeolian ridges mentioned by Bill, but those come in several flavors as described in the attached paper. If this classification is still in vogue, these appear to be TARs of the "networked" variety. Bourke et al mention the following with regard to that type of TAR:

"Network: Networked ridges in troughs on Mars tend to
form in local topographic lows and areas of secondary
flow circulation. They are closely spaced and appear
to be smaller than the other ridge types (Fig. 1e)."

Granted, they were studying aeolian ridges in the ubiquitous Martian troughs, but this doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch. They are similar to those seen in the bottom of Endurance. It is apparently downwind of the nearest local peak, and other aeolian bedforms in the vicinity seem to be converging on this area. It seems to be a convenient wind shadow in the average local flow that experiences fluctuations. In that light, it is not surprising that it's boundaries are fairly well defined. It looks like secondary flow, or as previously mentioned, something like a vortex.

 Bourke_transverse_aeolian_ridges.pdf ( 185.67K ) : 631
 

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 30 2005, 09:20 AM

This is an exciting time and every day brings in new imagery for a new round of arm-waving. Exploratorium has more MIs from yestersol, as well as Hazcams and other images.

Now that Doug mentions it, I recall his comments about the dark area some time ago. Spirit's next stop ought to be those ledges upslope. Tom's paper is a good reference on duneforms.

Here is where she is sniffing...

--Bill

Posted by: djellison Dec 30 2005, 01:21 PM

QUOTE (Me on the 24th)
What do you think - El Dorado for New Year with a nice 6 x 3 pancam postcard....go on Jim, you know you want to


"708 p2267.05 72 0 0 72 2 146 pancam_El_Dorado_pan_L257R2"

I presume that's a 6 x 3 - just what the doctor ordered smile.gif

MI images of the MB noseprint followed by an APXS integration on 709

Depending on the length of the APXS integ ( perhaps overnight? ) 710 could be a leaving-el-dorado day smile.gif


Doug

Posted by: dot.dk Dec 30 2005, 02:11 PM

It is remarkable how productive Spirit is these days... How many targets have she investigated in the same time Oppy has been stuck at the same outcrop for over a month now?

Let's hope Oppy will bounce back soon with some kick ass driving biggrin.gif

Posted by: jabe Dec 30 2005, 05:50 PM

latest pics are down..looking around at the dunes it seems..
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-12-30/2P189219891EFFAL00P2267L5M1.JPG

Posted by: djellison Dec 30 2005, 06:09 PM

I think it's a 9 x 2, not a 6 x 3 smile.gif I was close though tongue.gif

Doug

Posted by: mhoward Dec 30 2005, 06:43 PM

Here's what's down so far (pretty false-color):

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=79435444&size=o
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=79435387&context=photostream&size=o http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=79435355&context=photostream&size=o

Posted by: ustrax Dec 30 2005, 07:39 PM

Looking at the MI, and while the results don't arrive, the sand in El Dorado looks to be formed from different materials, is it possible to be, I'm repeating myself here, volcanic sand? And if the results indicate basalt and crystals, mainly olivine, and magnetic properties? Will this a definitive proof of it?

Compare this...

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/micro_imager/2005-12-29/2M189124003EFFAL00P2977M2M1.JPG

With this...

http://www.microscope-microscope.org/applications/sand/CA-Black2.jpg

'California black sand after magnet
Many of the black particles stuck to the magnet. Those metallic particles are called magnetite. I looked at what was left. There was still some black minerals. My guess is that they are hornblende. The green crystals could be olivine.'

http://www.microscope-microscope.org/applications/sand/microscopic-sand.htm

Posted by: djellison Dec 30 2005, 07:52 PM

Mossbauer and APXS will answer those questions, but it'll be some time before we see them obviously smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Dec 30 2005, 08:11 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 30 2005, 07:52 PM)
Mossbauer and APXS will answer those questions, but it'll be some time before we see them obviously smile.gif

Doug
*


Doug, can you tell me, from the code:
706 11:41:12 p2534.15. 1 0 0 13 0 13 13 pancam_Seven_Cities_L234567Rall
where is Seven Cities located? In the Inner Basin or in the El Dorado area?

Posted by: mhoward Dec 30 2005, 08:11 PM

More of El Dorado:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=79465764&size=l
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=79465713&context=photostream&size=o
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=79465800&size=l

Posted by: ustrax Dec 30 2005, 08:17 PM

QUOTE (mhoward @ Dec 30 2005, 08:11 PM)
More of El Dorado:


I'm drooling...We've got a tradition here that is to wear baby blue underwear on the first day of the year but that tone of blue will be more appropiate... cool.gif

Posted by: mhoward Dec 30 2005, 08:26 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 30 2005, 08:17 PM)
I'm drooling...We've got a tradition here that is to wear baby blue underwear on the first day of the year but that tone of blue will be more appropiate... cool.gif
*


I confess I wasn't that interested in visiting El Dorado. I figured it was just more sand. Well, I was partly right, it is mostly sand, but boy, it is certainly interesting...

Posted by: ustrax Dec 30 2005, 08:31 PM

QUOTE (mhoward @ Dec 30 2005, 08:26 PM)
I confess I wasn't that interested in visiting El Dorado. I figured it was just more sand. Well, I was partly right, it is mostly sand, but boy, it is certainly interesting...
*


I confess I was dying to see those wheels there... smile.gif
Guess we've followed different paths...I came out of the abyss to contemplate the sun bathing a beautiful Undae, and the non-abyssers found there something, although not unexpected, beautiful...
A GREAT New Year to you and I sincerly hope you continue the amazing work... biggrin.gif

Posted by: alan Dec 30 2005, 09:42 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 30 2005, 02:11 PM)
Doug, can you tell me, from the code:
706  11:41:12  p2534.15. 1    0  0  13  0  13  13  pancam_Seven_Cities_L234567Rall
where is Seven Cities located? In the Inner Basin or in the El Dorado area?
*

This is where the pancam was aiming.

Don't know why they are calling that rock seven cities huh.gif

Posted by: ustrax Dec 30 2005, 10:06 PM

QUOTE (alan @ Dec 30 2005, 09:42 PM)
Don't know why they are calling that rock seven cities  huh.gif
*


Such a small piece of Mars for such a great tale... tongue.gif

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=1906&st=75

Posted by: kanalje Dec 30 2005, 10:21 PM

Oh yeah, bring on the good stuff for papas new year! I'm betting something good will come up by the turn of newyear smile.gif

Posted by: ustrax Dec 30 2005, 10:23 PM

QUOTE (kanalje @ Dec 30 2005, 10:21 PM)
Oh yeah, bring on the good stuff for papas new year! I'm betting something good will come up by the turn of newyear  smile.gif
*


GOLD! GOOOOLD!!! ph34r.gif
laugh.gif

Posted by: Shaka Dec 30 2005, 10:56 PM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 29 2005, 03:19 PM)
Here is a 1x2 mosaic of two of the MI images from Spirit today.  I think that I have it oriented correctly, although I have no idea exactly where this spot is located in today's hazcam view.

The upper part of this pan is the undisturbed ripple surface, the dark slope is the cut from the rover wheel and the material in the lower part is sand churned by the wheel.

--Bill
*


Is anyone convinced that the spherical granules are solid mineral grains and not aggregations of dust-sized stuff? I'm waiting for the IDD to come down in its 'squash' maneuver, to see if they flatten, but maybe the wheels tell us here. I'm not sure. I concede that such nice rounded shapes suggest long-range transport, but, if these dark sand fields are a real wind cul-de-sac, maybe things just get rolled up the slope and than roll down again, over and over (a trillion little Sysyphuses at work) until anything would be well rounded, rocks or snowballs. If the ultimate source rock were anywhere nearby, would we see such magnificent sorting ? They look like peas in a pod. (Could the gaps between them act as light traps to produce their low albedo?)
It would be nice to map grain size distribution across the whole field, but I fear Winter will not leave us time.
AH, MARS! Tantalizing Beauty, So many secrets you hide!

Posted by: mhoward Dec 31 2005, 02:10 AM

Slightly OT, but here is http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10618800/#051230a

One itty bitty tidbit from Steve Sqyures:

QUOTE
"The last three or four weeks with Spirit have been among the most scientifically productive I can imagine," the Cornell University astronomer told me by phone today from his home base in New York.

Posted by: glennwsmith Dec 31 2005, 03:56 AM

All,

Given the amazing uniformity and definition (not to mention beauty) of the El Dorado formation, we're going to get some great ground truth data for the satellite mappers. What could this stuff be ?!?!

Glenn

Posted by: mhoward Dec 31 2005, 04:17 PM

Looks like the whole thing is down now, except for part of one frame:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=79808686&size=l

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=79808626&size=o http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=79808657&context=photostream&size=o

Here is a "top" view with North approximately "up":
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=79808711&context=photostream&size=o

Posted by: Bob Shaw Dec 31 2005, 05:13 PM

Can anyone see any mini-craters? I can't! Or any Gusev-style cracks in the ground...

Bob Shaw

Posted by: RNeuhaus Dec 31 2005, 05:23 PM

I haven't see any mini-craters up to now around the inner basin (south side of Columbia Hill). Some people tought that around the rough terrain of El Dorado are of mini-craters. About cracks, I think I have see ones around the Commanche rock, the previous waypoint.

Rodolfo

Posted by: ustrax Dec 31 2005, 06:33 PM

El Dorado is beautiful!

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/micro_imager/2005-12-31/2M189317905EFFAL00P2956M2M1.JPG

Happy New Year!
biggrin.gif

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 31 2005, 06:35 PM

QUOTE
Can anyone see any mini-craters? I can't! Or any Gusev-style cracks in the ground...

We haven't looked at that much area of El Dorado, so we can't say yea or nay on the minicraters. I assume you mean "anatolia" for the fractures, I doubt we'll be seeing _those_ here; wrong lithology. We did see some fractures the other side of Comanche, those likely from an impending slope failure. IMO.

--Bill

Posted by: ustrax Dec 31 2005, 06:45 PM

Bill, can you tell me what this is?:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-12-28/2N189047354EFFAL00P1975R0M1.JPG

Posted by: David Dec 31 2005, 06:46 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 31 2005, 06:45 PM)
Bill, can you tell me what this is?:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-12-28/2N189047354EFFAL00P1975R0M1.JPG
*


Quicksand! Mind your step. laugh.gif

Posted by: Shaka Dec 31 2005, 07:24 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 31 2005, 08:33 AM)
El Dorado is beautiful!

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/micro_imager/2005-12-31/2M189317905EFFAL00P2956M2M1.JPG

Happy New Year!
biggrin.gif
*

ohmy.gif
Wow. They sure don't squash! But I'm still wondering if they are single grains or (hard!) balls of clay. Unbelievable sorting. Roughly 0.23 mm in diameter - every man-jack of them! Clean as hounds' teeth.
You've got a beautiful collection of something here, Ustrax!

P.S. Don't forget! We're all aching to see you in your "Baby blue undies" tomorrow! tongue.gif
We'll want a full 360 degree pan, Autostitched!

Posted by: djellison Dec 31 2005, 08:16 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 31 2005, 06:33 PM)
El Dorado is beautiful!

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/micro_imager/2005-12-31/2M189317905EFFAL00P2956M2M1.JPG

Happy New Year!
biggrin.gif
*

LOL - that MB nose-print reminds me of a licorice allsport - the pink and blue speckled ones ( http://www.thorpfruit.com/images/licorice_allsorts.JPG - the pink speckled one toward the top right smile.gif )

Doug

Posted by: RNeuhaus Dec 31 2005, 09:40 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 31 2005, 01:33 PM)
El Dorado is beautiful!
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/micro_imager/2005-12-31/2M189317905EFFAL00P2956M2M1.JPG
*

These grains are well rounded, most are in the about the same size. They aren't fine but coarse.

Then, my toughts are that these grains does not comes from the air but by rolling from a long distance (see the ComicRock append document) due to its rounded shape. I does not seem that the Martian air can blow them into the air but just to roll them. Most probably from the Columbia Hill.

Initially, many have tought that by El Dorado might have deposited dust coming the north from Columbia Hill but it is our surprise that there has no dust. Can anyone tell confirm is there any dust or not? I seems if I see that MI picture.

Closing it, I wish all to have a new happy year. wink.gif

Rodolfo

Posted by: djellison Dec 31 2005, 10:40 PM

Really hard to get the colours matched up for some reason - just couldnt get it all quite right, but it's spectacular none the less smile.gif

 

Posted by: jabe Jan 1 2006, 12:50 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 31 2005, 10:40 PM)
Really hard to get the colours matched up for some reason - just couldnt get it all quite right, but it's spectacular none the less smile.gif

I second the spectacular comment...well done!!

Posted by: David Jan 1 2006, 01:17 AM

That's wonderful, and very beautiful too. Thanks, Doug.

Posted by: paulanderson Jan 1 2006, 01:39 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 31 2005, 02:40 PM)
Really hard to get the colours matched up for some reason - just couldnt get it all quite right, but it's spectacular none the less smile.gif
*

I'd like to put in a link to it on my blog, if that is ok? With credit, of course. Beautiful image. Very interested in what the composition of this turns out to be and the MIs are great too. A nice start to the "Martian" new year!

Posted by: RGClark Jan 1 2006, 01:44 AM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Dec 31 2005, 06:45 PM)
Bill, can you tell me what this is?:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-12-28/2N189047354EFFAL00P1975R0M1.JPG
*



You mean the round area near the rover?
I'm wondering about that too.


- Bob

Posted by: jabe Jan 1 2006, 03:45 AM

QUOTE (RGClark @ Jan 1 2006, 01:44 AM)
You mean the round area near the rover?
I'm wondering about that too.
  - Bob
*


Crop circle? tongue.gif

Posted by: edstrick Jan 1 2006, 07:44 AM

mmm..... more of a crop-less circle.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Jan 1 2006, 10:14 AM

Very well rounded, very well sorted, and I'd be willing to bet that if we could see the grains more closely, they'd also be frosted. It's a classic aeolian sediment. Pretty stuff.

Damn, I have already violated my New Year's resolution.

Happy New Year, people.

Posted by: Toma B Jan 1 2006, 10:25 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 1 2006, 01:40 AM)
Really hard to get the colours matched up for some reason - just couldnt get it all quite right, but it's spectacular none the less smile.gif
*

Really Spectacular...beautifull new years present....

Posted by: djellison Jan 1 2006, 12:48 PM

711 is a driving sol smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: jabe Jan 1 2006, 01:15 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 1 2006, 12:48 PM)
711 is a driving sol smile.gif 

Doug
*

the java applet seems to be not working for the rovers http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html. It shows me it is sol 355. Anyone have same proplem?
hate not knowing the day or time smile.gif

Posted by: djellison Jan 1 2006, 01:17 PM

If all else fails, just use rawid or http://marswatch.astro.cornell.edu/merweb/merweb.pl

i.e.
Sol A: 710.5
Sol B: 690.0

smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 1 2006, 02:35 PM

QUOTE
You mean the round area near the rover?
I'm wondering about that too.

I think it's simply an area where the wind has blow the black sand away and we're seeing the underlying soil unit, or it's a lag deposit of sorts.

Drive tomorrow? It will be good to see the morphology of El Dorado from a distance.

On to Home Plate! Any guesses about the wonders we'll see in the way? Spirit will cross the lowest/oldest rocks in the Inner Basin along the way.

--Bill

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 1 2006, 02:48 PM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 31 2005, 07:35 PM)
We haven't looked at that much area of El Dorado, so we can't say yea or nay on the minicraters.  I assume you mean "anatolia" for the fractures, I doubt we'll be seeing _those_ here; wrong lithology.  We did see some fractures the other side of Comanche, those likely from an impending slope failure.  IMO.

--Bill
*


Bill:

No, not Anatolia - the odd feature near Comanche was the Gusev crack... ...and slope failure sounds interesting. I previously suggested that there might be underground pools of ice-rich soil in various spots, making a series of 'water tables' which would influence the material above. Such material might provide enough 'lubrication' to mediate slippage, especially on a slope which gathers more sunlight...

Bob Shaw

Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 1 2006, 03:11 PM

Ah, I see. _Those_ Gusev cracks. I was still thinking Meridiani. biggrin.gif

I've seen that happen. This was a shopping center development, thinly-bedded rock with a 5 degree dip. They excavated the area of the lower parking lot (downdip), thereby removing the support of the upper parking lot. When it rained, it wetted the clay between the beds, providing lubrication. The upper parking lot started to slide down onto the lower parking lot. Solution was a row of drilled pilings to "pin" the strata down, and pave it with asphalt to keep the clay dry.

As Spirit moves away from El Dorado towards HomePlate, we'll get a good look at possible mini-craters.

--Bill

Posted by: Burmese Jan 1 2006, 04:03 PM

Like the dog that didn't bark in the night, this total lack of a finer dust in El Dorado must be telling us something. I can't recall a single MB imprint that was so 'clean'. Steve really needs to update his little blog, perhaps letting us know what the Mini-TES has been making of this material.

Posted by: djellison Jan 1 2006, 04:10 PM

I'm sure Steve will update us once we're under way again.

Doug

Posted by: Shaka Jan 1 2006, 07:33 PM

QUOTE (Burmese @ Jan 1 2006, 06:03 AM)
Like the dog that didn't bark in the night, this total lack of a finer dust in El Dorado must be telling us something. I can't recall a single MB imprint that was so 'clean'.  Steve really needs to update his little blog, perhaps letting us know what the Mini-TES has been making of this material.
*



Presumably the fines have been carried away by the wind - up and over Husband Hill and on to the rest of Mars. The granules left behind are too heavy to make it up the hill.
They have been worked and rolled around down here in Ultreya/Eldorado for n zillion years until they are "round and firm and fully packed" cool.gif

I wish there was a way we could try to break up the particles. What would happen if you just put the RAT into the sand and 'spun' it for a while at full speed? World's most expensive eggbeater. Even without diamond abrasive it might reveal something about the interior of the grains.

Does anyone know the direction of the next drive? Into the 'Shadow Sea' or back onto 'dry land'?

Posted by: Tesheiner Jan 1 2006, 09:15 PM

Last "drive-direction" panorama was looking SSE downslope.
IMO, Spirit will drive back to safer (?) terrain before going downhill.

Posted by: dilo Jan 1 2006, 09:52 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 31 2005, 10:40 PM)
Really hard to get the colours matched up for some reason - just couldnt get it all quite right, but it's spectacular none the less smile.gif
*

Quite spectacular, Doug. Great work!
I made it slightly brighter and introduced a shading in the horizon, with a simulated sun glow... hope you like it!

 

Posted by: Nirgal Jan 1 2006, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (dilo @ Jan 1 2006, 11:52 PM)
Quite spectacular, Doug. Great work!
I made it slightly brighter and introduced a shading in the horizon, with a simulated sun glow... hope you like it!
*


blink.gif
Guys, this is nothing but one of the most awsome unearthly spectacular views
ever seen on another world smile.gif
... for me at least among the top 5 of the entire MER mission imagery
because of that alien, un-earth-like atmosphere ... one of those *really* great visions that show that Martian landscape is more than just dull rock-strewn plains but an entirely world of it's own exotic beauty

smile.gif

Posted by: Shaka Jan 1 2006, 10:37 PM

QUOTE (Nirgal @ Jan 1 2006, 12:12 PM)
blink.gif
Guys, this is nothing but one of the most awsome unearthly spectacular views
ever seen on another world smile.gif
... for me at least among the top 5 of the entire MER mission imagery
because of that alien, un-earth-like atmosphere ... one of those *really* great visions  that show that Martian landscape is more than just dull rock-strewn plains but an entirely world of it's own exotic beauty

smile.gif
*


A hundred years from now on New Years Day, Nirgal Doaks and his 'Martian' family will schedule an annual picnic on the nearest Black Sand Slope. Good things to eat, building sand castles, and free-style skiing across those slippery little 'ball bearings'.

[insert smiley denoting 'sublime contentment']

Posted by: Shaka Jan 2 2006, 12:17 AM

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2006-01-01/2P189395607EFFAL00P2430R2M1.JPG
JAWS CLVII "Get everyone out of the lake! Quick!"


O.K. New Photos out! C'mon Autostitchers; quit nursing your hangovers and get to work! biggrin.gif A new sand MI view from a different dune area - less clean and well-sorted.

Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 2 2006, 12:24 AM

The mission was originally scheduled to go here, to The Inner Basin first, but for a couple of valid reasons they decided to climb Husband Hill first. We saw a lot of great geology on that hillclimb, but _this_ place is wondrous.

--Bill

Posted by: mhoward Jan 2 2006, 02:05 AM

Shaka: smile.gif

Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the Inner Basin...

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=80555881&size=o

Posted by: edstrick Jan 2 2006, 06:03 AM

That funny looking circular feature in the sand that was spotted a couple days ago...

It's where a sandworm had started to surface but didn't....

As Elmer Fudd, in duck-hunting role says: We must be werrry werrry quiet!

Posted by: CosmicRocker Jan 2 2006, 06:13 AM

Hahaha! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif Sharks and sandworms...this place is more dangerous than I had suspected...time to move on.

This is truly a scenic spot though, with some nifty science observations to boot. Doug's lovely panorama was a nice New Year's gift. The colors are really beautiful and quite natural looking. I felt as if I was there.

Mike: Thanks for the daily MMB metadata updates. I have been checking for them regularly, and then spinning and zooming around through this developing panorama with joy. Doing that in 3D with the anaglyph panoramas has been delightful.

Damn, I love your MidnightMarsBrowser!

Posted by: djellison Jan 2 2006, 12:34 PM

I'm guessing...but...

711 p1212.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
711 p1214.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_hazcam_ultimate_4_bpp
711 p1311.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 ultimate_rear_hazcam_pri_15
711 p1950.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_mtes_AzEl_0_neg45_1bpp_pri57
711 p2111.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 pancam_cal_targ_L234567Rall
711 p2535.15 0 0 0 0 0 0 pancam_shadow_L234567Rall
711 p2536.15 0 0 0 0 0 0 pancam_gallant_knight_edgar_L234567Rall
711 p2600.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 pancam_tau
711 p2600.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 pancam_tau
711 p2631.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 pancam_sky_spot_L234567R34567
712 p0695.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_5x1_az_162_3_bpp
712 p1212.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
712 p1311.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 ultimate_rear_hazcam_pri_15
712 p1795.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_5x1_az_342_1_bpp
712 p2631.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 pancam_sky_spot_L234567R34567


711 back off from the current site, and image it. 712 Head off out the dunes and take imagery for 713 driving which will be SSW

Doug

Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 2 2006, 12:59 PM

That would be my first guess at the next drive. Spirit will head downhill along the Eastern side of the El Dorado drift field where the sand is thinner (left side of this image) and then Southwest (right side of this image) up the slope and thence South to Home Plate. Note that there appears to be an outcrop of the "homeplate formation" on the left side of this slope. When she gets to high ground she'll hopefully turn around and do a face-on pan of El Dorado.

--Bill

Posted by: djellison Jan 2 2006, 01:05 PM

Oh - I'm sure the Homeplate Pan will happen in full 360deg niceness smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Jan 2 2006, 02:00 PM

Doug...Great image that one of yours... smile.gif

Do you guys know this site?:

http://areo.info/mer/

A differrent look over the dunes:

http://areo.info/mer/spirit/708/tn/2P189220191EFFAL00P2267L5M1_L2L5L5L7L7.jpg.html

Oh...And a Great 2006! biggrin.gif

Posted by: djellison Jan 2 2006, 02:49 PM

It's a great site, but two problems...

1) MMB means I dont need to use a site that automates the colour

2) He claims all his images are true colour and they just are not. It's one thing to believe that you're making true colour if you're not, but it's another to tell everyone else that you're making true colour when you're not.

Usefull none the less, but I hate people claiming 'true colour' when it isnt Grrrr smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: mhoward Jan 2 2006, 04:20 PM

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Jan 2 2006, 06:13 AM)
Mike:  Thanks for the daily MMB metadata updates.  I have been checking for them regularly, and then spinning and zooming around through this developing panorama with joy.  Doing that in 3D with the anaglyph panoramas has been delightful. 
*


Thanks, CR! I've been home for the holidays, so it's been easy to update regularly. I'll try to keep the metadata updates coming even though I'm headed back to work - because, of course, I'm as hooked on this stuff as you are. smile.gif (If you really want to know, I often create the new metadata within minutes of the pictures hitting the ground. For technical reasons, unfortunately, sometimes it's a while before I can upload it to the central repository. It's a glitch in my workflow that I'm looking at fixing.)

Here's a view I like using the additional column they tagged onto the left of the mosaic:

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=80931508&context=photostream&size=l

Posted by: RGClark Jan 2 2006, 04:39 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 2 2006, 02:49 PM)
It's a great site, but two problems...

1) MMB means I dont need to use a site that automates the colour

2) He claims all his images are true colour and they just are not.  It's one thing to believe that you're making true colour if you're not, but it's another to tell everyone else that you're making true colour when you're not.

Usefull none the less, but I hate people claiming 'true colour' when it isnt Grrrr smile.gif

Doug
*


How does he claim to combine the colors?


- Bob

Posted by: djellison Jan 2 2006, 04:43 PM

It's detail on his site, but basically the quick-dirty-JPGS ( wrong point to start as they're not calibrated ) and then some maths to merge the three channels slightly differently than a bog standard RGB - but the whole exercise is futile when you start with the JPG's anyway

Doug

Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 2 2006, 04:48 PM

QUOTE
He claims all his images are true colour...


Technically, he is correct. In the early days of 'puter graphics, 10 years years ago, a 24-bit (8-bit red+blue+green, 16.7 million colors) was referred to as a "truecolor" image, as opposed to an 8-bit, 256-color mapped image. He is basically combining three 8-bit "grayscale" images Ll456 or L257, whatever) into 24-bit color images. What we like to see are "calibrated color", whatever that is...

--Bill

Posted by: djellison Jan 2 2006, 04:57 PM

When you read his site, it's fairly obvious what he's claiming Bill

"On this website you find true color images taken by the Panoramic Camera on each of the Marsrovers Spirit and Opportunity. This is how images would look like, if an astronaut on the surface of Mars took images with a 1 Megapixel digital camera and sent them back to Earth via a planet wide Internet. That means, the colors appear the same as the astronaut would see them."

To that end, he is wrong and intentionally missleading.

It this field, everyone knows what 'true colour' means - there is no ambiguity in his claim, and his claim is based on totally uncalibrated data, that can never ever be used to make any claims on what the colours on Mars are.

If his images were 'true colour' then the bottom of this image
http://areo.info/mer/spirit/708/tn/2P189222706EFFAL00P2267L5M1_L2L5L5L7L7.jpg.html
would be the same as the top of this image
http://areo.info/mer/spirit/708/tn/2P189222985EFFAL00P2267L5M1_L2L5L5L7L7.jpg.html

And it isnt.

Ditto all his images. He has a record of arguing that NASA has always had the issue wrong, so we know what his game is, and it's an unfortunate symptom of stretching all the images before putting the JPG's online that your average image is going to come out fairly blue. Bad Astronomy covers the issue well, and there is another website that does the same.

But he is claiming that imagery is true colour and it simply isnt. Fact. Dont try and defend the guy Bill, as I wont have his sort of misinformation being put forward as accurate in this place.

Doug

Posted by: djellison Jan 2 2006, 06:37 PM

A new image turnaround record?

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2006-01-02/2F189493503EFFALB6P1212L0M1.JPG

At the time of posting, that image was taken 1hr 41 minutes ago.

Doug

Posted by: paulanderson Jan 2 2006, 06:57 PM

Hi Doug,

I'd still like to do a blog link to your image from post #123 if that is ok? With credit of course (I had asked already in post #126, but that initial request may have been lost among all the subsequent posts already?).

And now as I'm writing this I see Dilo's great version which I like also, so if I could use either or both?... smile.gif

I'm glad Spirit stopped here, a most interesting change of scenery.

Posted by: akuo Jan 2 2006, 07:11 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 2 2006, 06:37 PM)
A new image turnaround record?

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2006-01-02/2F189493503EFFALB6P1212L0M1.JPG

At the time of posting, that image was taken 1hr 41 minutes ago.

Doug
*


Not quite. I noted on Dec 20th that there was an image updated on Exploratorium that was taken few tens of seconds over one hour ago on Mars on that date.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/pancam/2005-12-20/1P188369194ESF64KCP2547L6M1.JPG

Acquisition time (Earth): Tue Dec 20 08:34:27 2005
Time zone: PST

Exploratorium directory listing:

1P188369194ESF64KCP2..> 20-Dec-2005 09:35 52k


Pretty damn quick nonetheless!

Posted by: ustrax Jan 2 2006, 07:22 PM

I like this one...
A whole new ground ahead...And a beatiful, clean sunny sol on Gusev Carter!

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/rear_hazcam/2006-01-02/2R189493452EFFALB6P1311R0M1.JPG

Posted by: djellison Jan 2 2006, 08:24 PM

L2-L7 dodgy-merge of the nose print smile.gif

 

Posted by: kanalje Jan 2 2006, 08:32 PM

QUOTE (edstrick @ Jan 2 2006, 06:03 AM)
That funny looking circular feature in the sand that was spotted a couple days ago...

It's where a sandworm had started to surface but didn't....

As Elmer Fudd, in duck-hunting role says: We must be werrry werrry quiet!
*


Well it's worth a laugh only becouce it's significant, i contend! there are at least two more features like it in the picture, i think. Further away on the left are two similar formations in sort of an cut-out part of an circular pattern. that's what i LIKE to see though, so i'm not trustworthy of ANY interpretations of rocks i guess, but do not all aspiring astronomers and geologists EXCPECT certain features and in fact try to predict them?
And if so, does that not contaminate scientists in that they might sort stuff out that could be the "real gold"?
just thinkin...

Nisse

Posted by: kanalje Jan 2 2006, 08:37 PM

BTW i have no problem judging myself possibly crazy, but am i the ONLY one seeing faces sticking out of the ground at el dorado? Man i AM getting crazy smile.gif

Posted by: ustrax Jan 2 2006, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (kanalje @ Jan 2 2006, 08:37 PM)
BTW i have no problem judging myself possibly crazy, but am i the ONLY one seeing faces sticking out of the ground at el dorado? Man i AM getting crazy smile.gif
*


Welcome to the nest...

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=1906&view=findpost&p=33296

wink.gif

Posted by: ustrax Jan 2 2006, 08:52 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 2 2006, 08:24 PM)
L2-L7 dodgy-merge of the nose print smile.gif
*


Looks like mousse... smile.gif

Is this down already?...

711 11:30:49 p2536.15. 1 0 0 2 0 0 13 pancam_gallant_knight_edgar_L234567Rall

Posted by: djellison Jan 2 2006, 09:48 PM

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2006-01-02/2P189482610ESFAL02P2536L7M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2006-01-02/2P189482667ESFAL02P2536R1M1.JPG

I think are both from that sequence - well they're both P2536 anyway

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Jan 2 2006, 09:56 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 2 2006, 09:48 PM)
I think are both from that sequence - well they're both P2536 anyway

Doug
*


Doug, can you explain me why some of the images are already displayed at exploratorium and don't show up at the MER pancam tracking webpage?...

Posted by: Tesheiner Jan 2 2006, 10:04 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 2 2006, 01:34 PM)
I'm guessing...but...

711 p1212.07 0  0  0  0  0  0    front_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
711 p1214.05 0  0  0  0  0  0    front_hazcam_ultimate_4_bpp
711 p1311.03 0  0  0  0  0  0    ultimate_rear_hazcam_pri_15
711 p1950.05 0  0  0  0  0  0    navcam_mtes_AzEl_0_neg45_1bpp_pri57
711 p2111.05 0  0  0  0  0  0    pancam_cal_targ_L234567Rall
711 p2535.15 0  0  0  0  0  0    pancam_shadow_L234567Rall
711 p2536.15 0  0  0  0  0  0    pancam_gallant_knight_edgar_L234567Rall
711 p2600.07 0  0  0  0  0  0    pancam_tau
711 p2600.07 0  0  0  0  0  0    pancam_tau
711 p2631.01 0  0  0  0  0  0    pancam_sky_spot_L234567R34567
712 p0695.03 0  0  0  0  0  0    navcam_5x1_az_162_3_bpp
712 p1212.07 0  0  0  0  0  0    front_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
712 p1311.03 0  0  0  0  0  0    ultimate_rear_hazcam_pri_15
712 p1795.01 0  0  0  0  0  0    navcam_5x1_az_342_1_bpp
712 p2631.01 0  0  0  0  0  0    pancam_sky_spot_L234567R34567
711 back off from the current site, and image it.  712  Head off out the dunes and take imagery for 713 driving which will be SSW

Doug
*


It's strange to see a movement without any after-drive imagery except hazcams. And sol 711 drive was about 50m!

Posted by: djellison Jan 2 2006, 10:09 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ Jan 2 2006, 09:56 PM)
Doug, can you explain me why some of the images are already displayed at exploratorium and don't show up at the MER pancam tracking webpage?...
*


Which ones?

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Jan 2 2006, 10:11 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 2 2006, 10:09 PM)
Which ones?

Doug
*


The ones you have up there...
Aren't they from that sequence?

Posted by: djellison Jan 2 2006, 10:55 PM

I'm lost. The two I linked to are in the PC tracking page as part of that sequence you mentioned. The colour one I did is part of..
711 p2535.15 13 13 0 0 2 28 pancam_shadow_L234567Rall

Other than that - I'm not sure which particular images you mean.

Doug

Posted by: jamescanvin Jan 3 2006, 01:24 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 1 2006, 09:40 AM)
Really hard to get the colours matched up for some reason - just couldnt get it all quite right, but it's spectacular none the less smile.gif
*


No point in in trying to make my own version of this one. Fantastic work Doug!


What an amazing place, no abyss, but still ohmy.gif .


James

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 3 2006, 01:37 AM

QUOTE (kanalje @ Jan 2 2006, 03:37 PM)
BTW i have no problem judging myself possibly crazy, but am i the ONLY one seeing faces sticking out of the ground at el dorado? Man i AM getting crazy smile.gif
*


Early Martian practice carvings for the Face.

cool.gif

Speaking of alien faces and such, THE Richard C. Hoagland will be on The Space Show radio program this Thursday. You can have the chance to e-mail or call in your very own comments on his "theories". Details here:

Thursday, Jan. 5, 2006 10-11:30 AM Pacific Time: Richard C. Hoagland returns to The Space Show to discuss the alternative space history. Listeners can talk to Mr. Hoagland or the host using toll free 1 (866) 687-7223, by sending e-mail during the program using dmlivings@yahoo.com, drspace@thespaceshow.com, thespaceshow@gmail.com or chatting on AOL/ICQ/CompuServe Chat using the screen name "spaceshowchat."

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 3 2006, 02:03 AM

QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 3 2006, 02:37 AM)
Early Martian practice carvings for the Farce.

cool.gif

Speaking of alien farces and such, THE Richard P. Helmshiner will be on The Space Show radio program this Thursday.  You can have the chance to e-mail or call in your very own comments on his "theories".  Details here:

Thursday, Jan. 5, 2006 10-11:30 AM Pacific Time: Richard P. Helmshiner returns to The Space Show to discuss the alternative space history. Listeners can talk to Mr. Helmshiner or the host using toll free 1 (866) 687-7223, by sending e-mail during the program using dmlivings@yahoo.com, drspace@thespaceshow.com, thespaceshow@gmail.com or chatting on AOL/ICQ/CompuServe Chat using the screen name "spaceshowchat."
*


No, no, don't feed Google! The voices will follow you!

Bob Shaw

Posted by: ustrax Jan 3 2006, 09:36 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 2 2006, 10:55 PM)
I'm lost.  The two I linked to are in the PC tracking page as part of that sequence you mentioned. The colour one I did is part of..
711 p2535.15 13  13  0  0  2  28  pancam_shadow_L234567Rall

Other than that - I'm not sure which particular images you mean.

Doug
*


Maybe my mistake, I've away from the tracking page and the last times I went the showed up as thumbnails but now only the code appears, that's why I was asking that, if they are already visible in exploratorium why aren't they seen at the tracking page?
Confused? Me too... blink.gif

Posted by: ustrax Jan 3 2006, 11:25 AM

Hey!
I thought we were on the left side of the shadow but, as for sol 711 we were just at it's beggining... blink.gif

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/tm-spirit/images/MERA_A708_2_br2.jpg

What lays beyond the sand?

Posted by: djellison Jan 3 2006, 11:30 AM

I think we'll get a good view of all of El-D from the home plate area, till then it's just a side-on view I guess.

I still cant figure out where that BIG drive was without any same-sol-post-drive-imaging.

It looks like the saved the post drive imaging for the following sol.

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Jan 3 2006, 11:48 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 3 2006, 11:30 AM)
I think we'll get a good view of all of El-D from the home plate area, till then it's just a side-on view I guess.

I still cant figure out where that BIG drive was without any same-sol-post-drive-imaging.

It looks like the saved the post drive imaging for the following sol.

Doug
*


I thought we had made a great drive for reaching the dunes, like...covering the entire 'abyss' area, but no...
Only now I understood what path Spirit is taking, something like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/ustrax/eldmap2b.jpg

Or here, El Dorado is the dark stripe right in the middle of the Ultreya area:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/ustrax/ultreyafrontier.jpg

Posted by: djellison Jan 3 2006, 11:58 AM

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=3100 has it down perfectly imho

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Jan 3 2006, 12:03 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 3 2006, 11:58 AM)
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=3100 has it down perfectly imho

Doug
*


Yeap...Tesheiner leads the way... wink.gif

Posted by: djellison Jan 3 2006, 12:08 PM

Actually - for once, JPL's up to date as well

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/tm-spirit/index.html

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Jan 3 2006, 12:10 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 3 2006, 12:08 PM)
Actually - for once, JPL's up to date as well

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/tm-spirit/index.html

Doug
*


Yes...When I said that I tought Spirit was more to the west I was based on the recent traverse maps, forgot the link... wink.gif

Posted by: mhoward Jan 3 2006, 09:50 PM

Movin' south:

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=81696284&size=l
http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=81696226&size=l

'Guess it's time for a new topic soon. Although I'm sure El Dorado discussion will continue.

Edit: Looks like the new topic is up smile.gif

Posted by: Tesheiner Jan 3 2006, 10:03 PM

Today's (sol 712) drive was really short.
I really wonder if that zig-zag was intended or it was an aborted drive...

Sol 711: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2006-01-02/2F189493503EFFALB6P1212L0M1.JPG
Sol 712: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2006-01-03/2F189580666EFFALBUP1212L0M1.JPG

Posted by: dilo Jan 3 2006, 10:05 PM

QUOTE (mhoward @ Jan 3 2006, 09:50 PM)
Edit: Looks like the new topic is up smile.gif
*

Yes I did.. rolleyes.gif
And new images (also PanCam) are arriving now!

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 3 2006, 10:13 PM

How long will the rovers' tracks remain relatively intact? Has anyone estimated the erosion rates for the two rovers?

Posted by: mhoward Jan 3 2006, 10:29 PM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Jan 3 2006, 10:03 PM)
Today's (sol 712) drive was really short.
I really wonder if that zig-zag was intended or it was an aborted drive...

Sol 711: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2006-01-02/2F189493503EFFALB6P1212L0M1.JPG
Sol 712: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2006-01-03/2F189580666EFFALBUP1212L0M1.JPG
*


You're right. The rover seems to be having problems getting over this bit of ground. Check out the sequence of rear hazcam shots (she's driving backwards).

Taking this to the other thread.

Posted by: Tesheiner Jan 3 2006, 11:06 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 3 2006, 12:30 PM)
I still cant figure out where that BIG drive was without any same-sol-post-drive-imaging.

It looks like the saved the post drive imaging for the following sol.

Doug
*


Here is my guess for sol 711/712 position.
The base image is from the set of drive-direction pancams taken on sol 707(?).

(137k)

Posted by: akuo Jan 3 2006, 11:27 PM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Jan 3 2006, 11:06 PM)
Here is my guess for sol 711/712 position.
The base image is from the set of drive-direction pancams taken on sol 707(?).


That's where I figured we were too. The funny shaped rock on the right of that spot seems to be visible in front hazcam images too http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2006-01-03/2F189580666EFFALBUP1212R0M1.JPG .

Posted by: Nirgal Jan 3 2006, 11:43 PM

here is a hand-colored version of the latest navcam shots

(I really like those autumn-evening shots with clear air and long, sharp shadows ... smile.gif

http://mitglied.lycos.de/user73289/misc/spirit_n712_col_c.jpg

(click for large version 400KB)

Posted by: Gonzz Jan 4 2006, 01:05 AM

Nirgal, that is an absolutely stunning image, very poetic!

ohmy.gif smile.gif congrats!

Posted by: mhoward Jan 4 2006, 01:18 AM

http://athena.cornell.edu/news/mubss/

QUOTE
At Gusev, we have been to El Dorado, sampled the sands there thoroughly, and moved on. We got a spectacular Pancam panorama of the whole area that'll be ready to be released very soon. We also got some stunning MI images that show that the grains are very well rounded and remarkably "well sorted" -- i.e., all nearly the same size. And we got solid Mini-TES, APXS and Moessbauer data that tell us that the sands of El Dorado are composed of a very clean, olivine-rich basalt.

Posted by: Gonzz Jan 4 2006, 05:03 AM

"we're going to drive hard and fast while the sun shines."

sweet sweet words! wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif

put the pedal to the metal

Posted by: Tesheiner Jan 4 2006, 09:24 AM

QUOTE (akuo @ Jan 4 2006, 12:27 AM)
That's where I figured we were too. The funny shaped rock on the right of that spot seems to be visible in front hazcam images too http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2006-01-03/2F189580666EFFALBUP1212R0M1.JPG .
*


Exactly. That was the only reference available on 711 pics.
I will probably try to refine that extrapolation using the now available sol 712 images, just to double-check the accuracy of my last update to the route map.

Posted by: djellison Jan 4 2006, 11:36 AM

Jim's been busy...


http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/mer-20060103-images.html

Shows how much the raw jpg's are stretched, I had so much more contrast than that, but I just didnt know it.

Doug

Posted by: djellison Jan 4 2006, 12:35 PM

Large versions and others
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/targetFamily/Mars

Doug

Posted by: jvandriel Jan 4 2006, 12:56 PM

The images of the last 10 days are down and on the JPL website.

Time for some stitching. biggrin.gif

Here is a view from Sol 704. Taken with the L Navcam.

jvandriel


 

Posted by: jvandriel Jan 4 2006, 12:59 PM

and here a view taken with the L navcam on Sol 705.

El Dorado in the background.

jvandriel

 

Posted by: jvandriel Jan 4 2006, 01:02 PM

Spirit on the summit of El Dorado biggrin.gif

A panoramic view taken on Sol 706 with the L0 navcam.

jvandriel

 

Posted by: jvandriel Jan 4 2006, 03:44 PM

A panoramic view of El Dorado taken by the L2 Pancam on Sol 708, 709 and 710.

jvandriel

 

Posted by: jvandriel Jan 4 2006, 09:09 PM

I made a new stitch because one of the images was missing.

Now it's a complete 360 degree panoramic view of El Dorado and Inner Basin.

Taken with the L0 Navcam on Sol 706.

jvandriel


 

Posted by: Nirgal Jan 4 2006, 09:17 PM

QUOTE (jvandriel @ Jan 4 2006, 11:09 PM)
I made a new stitch because one of the images was missing.

jvandriel
*


jvandriel,
just want to say thanks again for all your ultra-up-to-date and expertly stitched panorama's :-)

kudos,
Nirgal

P.S.: how is your "grand project" of (re-)stitching all the earlier navcam-panos
from the MER-analysts-notebooks site going ?

Posted by: jvandriel Jan 4 2006, 09:46 PM

Nirgal,

thanks for your kind words.

Regarding the stitching of all the earlier images.

From Spirit I have stitched from Sol 1 to Sol 500 the Navcam, Pancam and MI images.

A total of 670 pano,s and mosaics.

From Opportunity I have stitched, until now, from Sol 1 to Sol 421 the Navcam images.

A total of 226 pano's and mosaics.

I don't take the images from the MER analyst handbook but the Jpeg's from the JPL

website.

jvandriel

Posted by: Astro0 Jan 5 2006, 12:01 PM

Fantastic to see Spirit pass the two year mark in the last few days.
Opportunity's arrivial anniversary coming up rapidly.

What a remarkable adventure, full of incredible images.

Thought I'd drop onto he forum and put another little image contribution forward.
Inspired by the recent pic of El Dorado above, here's Spirit dipping her 'toes' in.

just for fun smile.gif

Astro0


Posted by: Nirgal Jan 5 2006, 06:54 PM

QUOTE (Astro0 @ Jan 5 2006, 02:01 PM)
Fantastic to see Spirit pass the two year mark in the last few days.
Opportunity's arrivial anniversary coming up rapidly.

What a remarkable adventure, full of incredible images.

Thought I'd drop onto he forum and put another little image contribution forward.
Inspired by the recent pic of El Dorado above, here's Spirit dipping her 'toes' in.

just for fun smile.gif

Astro0


*


Very good work Astro0, congrats !

especuially with the realistic shadow and sun glares ... gives a real feel of scale to this world ...

smile.gif

Nirgal

Posted by: ustrax May 26 2006, 03:00 PM

From Lunar and Planetary Science:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/1829.pdf

Posted by: Marz May 26 2006, 03:38 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ May 26 2006, 10:00 AM) *
From Lunar and Planetary Science:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/1829.pdf


Thanks for the post. Dumb question of the day; what is the difference between a megaripple and a small dune? I always thought aeolian ripples were just "micro-dunes", but this paper makes it sound like they are different beasts. Aren't they both formed by saltation? Does a dune require different grain sizes to allow it to form classic dune structures, whereas a ripple implies only small waveforms are possible?

Posted by: RNeuhaus May 26 2006, 03:39 PM

QUOTE (ustrax @ May 26 2006, 10:00 AM) *
From Lunar and Planetary Science:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/1829.pdf

Thanks to Usatrax for posting the reference. smile.gif

Rodolfo

Posted by: ustrax May 26 2006, 03:50 PM

QUOTE (Marz @ May 26 2006, 04:38 PM) *
Thanks for the post. Dumb question of the day; what is the difference between a megaripple and a small dune? I always thought aeolian ripples were just "micro-dunes", but this paper makes it sound like they are different beasts. Aren't they both formed by saltation? Does a dune require different grain sizes to allow it to form classic dune structures, whereas a ripple implies only small waveforms are possible?


On megaripples:

https://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~mspieg/CMG2004/Abstracts/Yizhaq_291_mega_ripples.pdf

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