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Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ InSight _ InSight Surface Operations

Posted by: nprev Nov 26 2018, 08:20 PM

Congratulations to the InSight team on a successful landing! We'll discuss the remainder of the mission here. smile.gif

Posted by: xflare Nov 27 2018, 03:26 AM

At nearly 20 feet/6m, InSight should look quite interesting to HiRISE.

Posted by: MahFL Nov 27 2018, 03:28 AM

Confirmation the solar panels have deployed.
Also the panels are slightly bigger and stronger than Phoenix's were.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7294

Posted by: nprev Nov 27 2018, 03:35 AM

It should. Phoenix was unmistakeable even as the dust began to settle on her.

Posted by: marsophile Nov 27 2018, 03:35 AM

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0000/idc/D000M0000_596535424EDR_F0000_0106M_.PNG

Are we seeing reflections in the plates of the large structure on the left? It might be handy having some mirrored surfaces to look around corners.

Posted by: jccwrt Nov 27 2018, 03:36 AM

Took a stab at cleaning up the MarCO-B cubesat departure image of Mars



And with the fisheye effect removed:





I think I've managed to ID major landmarks, but am uncertain.


Posted by: hendric Nov 27 2018, 04:01 AM

Ok Phil, how long before you triangulate Insight based on that large rock in the distance? biggrin.gif

Posted by: MahFL Nov 27 2018, 04:03 AM

QUOTE (marsophile @ Nov 27 2018, 03:35 AM) *
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0000/idc/D000M0000_596535424EDR_F0000_0106M_.PNG

Are we seeing reflections in the plates of the large structure on the left? It might be handy having some mirrored surfaces to look around corners.


That's the seismometer...

https://mars.nasa.gov/system/resources/detail_files/21538_insight_solar_array_panel_5_1600.jpg

Posted by: djellison Nov 27 2018, 04:13 AM

QUOTE (jccwrt @ Nov 26 2018, 07:36 PM) *
I think I've managed to ID major landmarks, but am uncertain.


I got similar results. Good news is - this image was heavily JPG compressed to get on the ground quick. A raw uncompressed version should be down....hopefully....tomorrow. I think Mars should look a LOT better without JPGification. Hopefully smile.gif

Posted by: jccwrt Nov 27 2018, 04:20 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 26 2018, 10:13 PM) *
I got similar results. Good news is - this image was heavily JPG compressed to get on the ground quick. A raw uncompressed version should be down....hopefully....tomorrow. I think Mars should look a LOT better without JPGification. Hopefully smile.gif


Awesome. Something I've been curious about - was this the only planned image during the flyby, or will there be others as well?

Posted by: nprev Nov 27 2018, 04:21 AM

Great news! smile.gif


I'm looking forward to the MRO images of the chute & backshell on the surface, and hopefully the heat shield as well. Always interesting to see how those ended up.

Posted by: djellison Nov 27 2018, 04:22 AM

QUOTE (jccwrt @ Nov 26 2018, 08:20 PM) *
Awesome. Something I've been curious about - was this the only planned image during the flyby, or will there be others as well?


Should be a few more - not many - but a couple on the way in and a couple on the way out. A few from MarCO A as well ( this is from B )


Posted by: jccwrt Nov 27 2018, 04:30 AM

Looking forward to seeing them!

Posted by: PhilipTerryGraham Nov 27 2018, 05:52 AM

So, simple question, how many images are planned to be taken by the ICC and IDC during Sols 0-2?

Posted by: kenny Nov 27 2018, 11:23 AM

Emily says in her "What to Expect" article at the Planetary Society ...

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2018/mars-insight-landing-preview.html

... that the Cruise Stage wreckage will impact up-range (east) of the landing site.
Given the thin atmosphere and high altitude of the area, might we expect some components to survive entry and make it down to the surface?

Posted by: John Moore Nov 27 2018, 02:49 PM

A https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=196&v=65ie_FgthKQ (YouTube) - a team sometimes less-mentioned: success, hugs, high-5's, fist-bumps, love, of exploration.

John

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 27 2018, 02:49 PM

The MSL cruise stage made it to ground in pieces, and the splats were seen by HiRISE.

https://www.uahirise.org/ESP_029245_1755

Phil

Posted by: kenny Nov 27 2018, 03:15 PM

Thanks Phil. So no tungsten blocks this time, but I'm guessing there will surely be a lighter splatter out there somewhere.

Posted by: tanjent Nov 27 2018, 03:40 PM

In the early stages of the mission, can InSight's seismometer be used in concert with the hammer that is to drive the thermal mole into the ground, as a sort of sonar device to help locate buried rocks and maybe identify the best path to get the mole all the way to its desired 5 meter depth?


Sorry- this belongs in the surface operations thread, which is where I intended to put it. I guess I can't move it now without some assistance from admin...

Moved. -Admin.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 27 2018, 04:16 PM

Right! So in this image:

https://static.uahirise.org/images/2012/details/cut/CTX-29245_1755-CBM-2H-scale.jpg

the two largest splats are thought to be the tungsten blocks, but all the others are fragments of the cruise stage. Something similar should be visible to us this time.

Every previous US lander except the Vikings had cruise stages which would have done this, but we didn't have a great camera to look for them before this (exception, Phoenix, but I never saw a search for cruise stage scars - maybe CTX from just after the Phoenix landing would reveal cruise stage impacts). Presumably the older mission cruise stage scars would be faded by now.

Phil

Posted by: MahFL Nov 27 2018, 04:45 PM

QUOTE (tanjent @ Nov 27 2018, 04:40 PM) *
In the early stages of the mission, can InSight's seismometer be used in concert with the hammer that is to drive the thermal mole into the ground, as a sort of sonar device to help locate buried rocks and maybe identify the best path to get the mole all the way to its desired 5 meter depth?
Moved. -Admin.


There was no mention of that. The PI did say small rocks would be pushed aside by the Mole, but if it hit a big flat rock then that was as far as they could go, it won't go upwards. It's all about risk.

Posted by: kenny Nov 27 2018, 05:12 PM

My initial (and highly speculative) impression from the first images from each camera is that Insight has luckily landed inside one of those circular sandy areas that we first saw at the Spirit rover landing site in 2004. I think they were perhaps shallow craters in-filled with wind-blown dust and sand. The flat sandy terrain visible by the landing leg seems to finish abruptly a few tens of meters off, at rougher boulder terrain, from the higher viewpoint looking out alongside the seismometer cover.

But we will find out more fully in due course !

Posted by: Ant103 Nov 27 2018, 05:52 PM

First of all, a big applause for the team which have landed InSight on Mars. They've done it. Again. I am grateful to live such great moments smile.gif

Second, I put my hand on the first IDC image downlinked, to remove some artifacts, review a little bit the colors.

http://www.db-prods.net/marsroversimages/insight.php

And, I got my website updated, so it can receive further processing based on IDC (and maybe ICC).

Posted by: MahFL Nov 27 2018, 06:12 PM

QUOTE (kenny @ Nov 27 2018, 06:12 PM) *
... The flat sandy terrain visible by the landing leg seems to finish abruptly a few tens of meters off, at rougher boulder terrain, from the higher viewpoint looking out alongside the seismometer cover...


To my eyes it looks like sandy spots interspersed with rocky spots. A billion years of wind and no rain can do strange things...
And I still don't think it was the parking lot they expected.

Posted by: djellison Nov 27 2018, 06:43 PM

QUOTE (MahFL @ Nov 27 2018, 10:12 AM) *
And I still don't think it was the parking lot they expected.


In the IDC image there is exactly one rock that could have caused a landing issue. There's nothing else out there that looks like it could have been an impairment to landing, or instrument deployment.

This is exactly what was expected.

From https://sharad.psi.edu/~ibsmith/pubs/Golombek_SSR_2016.pdf

"Rock abundance in the smooth terrain averages ∼2.5 % (well below the 10 % requirement)"

Seems we got what we ordered.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 27 2018, 07:07 PM

This is what HiRISE looks like in the approximate landing area (image number in file name if you save it). Lots of smooth patches between slightly rougher patches. Really not too many serious hazards. I'm looking! But we don't have much to go on yet.

Phil




Posted by: rlorenz Nov 27 2018, 09:51 PM

QUOTE (tanjent @ Nov 27 2018, 11:40 AM) *
In the early stages of the mission, can InSight's seismometer be used in concert with the hammer that is to drive the thermal mole into the ground, as a sort of sonar device to help locate buried rocks and maybe identify the best path to get the mole all the way to its desired 5 meter depth?


Yes, and no. Yes, the seismometers will listen as the HP3 mole hammers itself into the ground, and will deduce near-surface seismic properties therefrom. Conceivably one could deduce the presence of reflectors such as buried rocks, although I don't know how unique such analyses would be.

However, the mole is not steered. It just drives itself downwards.

Ralph

Posted by: serpens Nov 27 2018, 10:01 PM

Thanks for that link Doug. The tolerance of the lander to rocks in the landing site is impressive. Rocks up to 45 cm high underneath a footpad, rocks up to 45 cm high underneath the lander, and rocks up to 55 cm high underneath the deployed solar arrays. less 10 cm in all cases if excess energy has been absorbed by crushable material inside the lander legs.

Posted by: Steve G Nov 28 2018, 12:10 AM

There are three new images for Sol 1, the same two angles from Sol 0, just a difference in shadows.

Posted by: MahFL Nov 28 2018, 12:11 AM

Some new images came down, same views though.

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight

Posted by: Hungry4info Nov 28 2018, 12:11 AM

New images are up.

Another from the workstation camera, the cover is still on as of Sol 1.
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0001/icc/C000M0001_596620131EDR_F0000_0589M_.PNG

There's a couple new images from the robotic arm camera, one shows some movement of .. I think the grappling device at the end of the arm?
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0001/idc/D000M0001_596622265EDR_F0000_0463M_.PNG

Posted by: jccwrt Nov 28 2018, 12:38 AM

Some of the dust on the camera lens has moved around. Hard to say if this is from wind or because movement from the grapple gently shook some of it off.


Posted by: fredk Nov 28 2018, 12:44 AM

Doing a further max with the new ICC frame doesn't improve my sol 0 2-frame image much, since not much dust has moved and the lighting is different in the sol 1 image which causes artifacts especially near the centre of the frame, but here it is anyway:


Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 28 2018, 12:46 AM

Not quite the same (I wrote this replying to fredk), look how the grapple moves between the two Sol 1 IDC images. And they are at different times of day so shadows move, including in the ICC images between sols 0 and 1.

Phil

Posted by: PDP8E Nov 28 2018, 02:04 AM

Here is a gif of Insight's deck from the IDC cam...
(the camera is on the 'forearm' section of the folded arm assembly)


Posted by: nprev Nov 28 2018, 02:23 AM

The new dance craze for all the cool kids this Northern Hemisphere winter will be the Grapple Snapp! biggrin.gif Thanks, PDP.

A word on expectation management: The InSight team took great pains, I'd say, to emphasize that this mission will be considerably slower-paced than what we've become accustomed to over the years for Mars. Seems that I heard that surface instrument deployment probably won't begin till well after the holidays, though since it seems that they've begun testing arm mechanical functions we should see some of that at least in the near future.

Also, they'll of course have to survey the putative instrument placement sites before making a commitment; that will doubtless take some time.

All good. I guess geophysics missions require something a tiny bit closer to geological timescales to do right. smile.gif

Posted by: Explorer1 Nov 28 2018, 02:32 AM

Yes, there's no wheels on this one. The nearest comparison is with Phoenix, and the team then was working with a much stricter deadline (Martian polar winter!) than InSight has. I'd be happy with a 360 panorama by Christmas!

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 28 2018, 02:57 AM

Just playing here, with the 3 IDC images making 2 pairs. These are difference images showing subtle changes - not so subtle on the deck where shadows and actual movement, but ignore that. The sky shows subtle changes between the two pairs, possibly related to clouds - very diffuse clouds - passing overhead. They have a radiometer to look for differences in illumination because it affects the heat flow, and those differences would include time of day, tau and cloud shadows.

Phil


Posted by: antipode Nov 28 2018, 03:24 AM

Thanks Phil. I hope we see some Philo-vision [TM] as soon as we get a significant stretch of the horizon in view!
I'm actually really looking forward to the meteorology package and magnetometer data.
Any idea when and where we might see that appear?

Another Phil

Posted by: propguy Nov 28 2018, 04:47 AM

QUOTE (antipode @ Nov 27 2018, 08:24 PM) *
Any idea when and where we might see that appear?

Without providing information that is not to be made public, from the timeline I have seen for the near term, it looks like images with different viewpoints and other hoped for things will occur this week. Sort of like the first ten plays of a football game, the sol days 0-5 are pre-scripted and will occur roughly on the planned timeline (unless of course issues arise). Sol 1 had a planned grapple lock down release (as you see in the photos). Array power is above predicts (as things usually are since the predicts are a worst case analysis) which is a great result.

Posted by: fredk Nov 28 2018, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Nov 28 2018, 03:57 AM) *
These are difference images showing subtle changes - not so subtle on the deck where shadows and actual movement, but ignore that. The sky shows subtle changes between the two pairs, possibly related to clouds - very diffuse clouds - passing overhead.

Some of the differences may be due to the onboard jpeg compression.

Since the insight "raw" site is providing png's, that hopefully means that they are lossless relative to the received images - it wouldn't make sense to re-jpeg the received images and then convert those to pngs.

I haven't heard anything about the original true raw images (ie, before onboard jpeg compression) eventually being sent home.

Posted by: SpaceListener Nov 28 2018, 04:44 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Nov 27 2018, 01:07 PM) *
This is what HiRISE looks like in the approximate landing area (image number in file name if you save it). Lots of smooth patches between slightly rougher patches. Really not too many serious hazards. I'm looking! But we don't have much to go on yet.

Phil




This land does not look to be a windy place since it has no lines of a bump of sand.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 28 2018, 04:50 PM

We haven't seen much of it yet! Lots more to see when the arm is raised.

Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 28 2018, 06:15 PM

One result from the seismometer is expected to be the detection of impacts on Mars. And look at this, one occurred about 5 or 6 km from the landing site only 3 years ago.

Phil

Before impact:



After impact:


close-up:

Posted by: hendric Nov 28 2018, 06:59 PM

Looks like it broke up in the air before impacting. Probably not great for probing the core right?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 28 2018, 07:03 PM

Being that close is not good for probing the core. For the core we need a big impact more than 60% of the way around the planet so waves pass through or around the core on the way to the seismometer.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo Nov 28 2018, 07:26 PM

I had completely forgotten that I took a few pictures of an InSight mockup and French seismometer at the Le Bourget Airshow in 2015
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9228922@N03/18803553728/in/album-72157654838335682/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9228922@N03/18370590053/in/album-72157654838335682/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9228922@N03/18985874972/in/album-72157654838335682/

Posted by: Tom Tamlyn Nov 28 2018, 07:38 PM

An article by Paul Voosen on the Science site, based on an interview with Matt Golombek, contains interesting details of JPL’s initial assessment of Insight’s landing area.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/mars-mission-got-lucky-nasa-lander-touched-down-sand-filled-crater-easing-study-planets

Posted by: Explorer1 Nov 28 2018, 08:01 PM

Good news from To's link regarding the sandy interior of a hollow!
Wondering about this bit though:

QUOTE
The biggest mystery for the lander team right now is figuring out exactly where it is. A Mars orbiter set to image the center of the landing zone on Thursday will miss the lander, because it missed the center slightly. An instrument on InSight called the inertial measurement unit has pinned the location to within a 5-kilometer-wide circle. InSight’s entry, descent, and landing team will refine that estimate down to a kilometer or less.


They can't slew HiRise a little to the side where the IMU says the lander is? (my avatar's existence tells me MRO can do it) Or is the imaging strip just too thin to guarantee catching it on Thursday?

Posted by: elakdawalla Nov 28 2018, 08:25 PM

MRO receives command sequences only a few times a month; its command load for the Thursday image is already onboard and can't be changed now.

Posted by: kenny Nov 28 2018, 08:30 PM

Thanks for the link, Tom Tamlyn, which includes this assessment :

… its location, which closely resembles martian terrains previously scouted by the Spirit rover. For example, InSight landed in what’s called a hollow, a crater that has been filled in with soil and leveled flat.

QUOTE (kenny @ Nov 27 2018, 05:12 PM) *
My initial (and highly speculative) impression from the first images from each camera is that Insight has luckily landed inside one of those circular sandy areas that we first saw at the Spirit rover landing site in 2004. I think they were perhaps shallow craters in-filled with wind-blown dust and sand. The flat sandy terrain visible by the landing leg seems to finish abruptly a few tens of meters off, at rougher boulder terrain, from the higher viewpoint looking out alongside the seismometer cover.



So wasn't too far adrift.
Just sayin' ...! smile.gif

Posted by: atomoid Nov 29 2018, 12:15 AM

Phoenix had a MARDI, though i recall it was never switched on due to some integration bug uncovered at the 11th hour that could have jeopardized the landing process. [EDIT: http://www.msss.com/msl/mardi/news/12Nov07/index.html]
I never thought about it until now, but I guess the Insight team decided to not to even include a MARDI for that or perhaps other reasons as well, so no descent images to help define the landing context.

Posted by: mcaplinger Nov 29 2018, 03:17 AM

QUOTE (atomoid @ Nov 28 2018, 04:15 PM) *
I guess the Insight team decided to not to even include a MARDI for that or perhaps other reasons as well, so no descent images to help define the landing context.

We offered a number of options, but they chose not to use any of them (of course they had a cost.)

In all honesty the landing context argument isn't extremely compelling, assuming we get HiRISE images post-landing.

Posted by: mcaplinger Nov 29 2018, 04:11 AM

QUOTE
A Mars orbiter set to image the center of the landing zone on Thursday will miss the lander, because it missed the center slightly.

Missed with HiRISE. If only there was a wider-field "context camera"... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: ChrisC Nov 29 2018, 05:17 AM

From the following three tweets:
https://twitter.com/HiRISE/status/1067874528187973632
https://twitter.com/HiRISE/status/1067874791648940032
https://twitter.com/HiRISE/status/1067875300178980865

QUOTE
MRO’s attempt to image InSight on the parachute during its descent was unsuccessful. The geometry was more challenging than the Phoenix & Curiosity images, and the uncertainty in timing and the limitations on MRO’s ability to rapidly pan the camera across the scene motivated the HiRISE team to use a camera setting which unfortunately saturated the detector. While disappointing, it is great to know that the parachute worked and the landing went as planned. We want to thank all the folks who worked hard on this (special thanks to @MarsMaven ) and we can't wait for some great science from InSight to start coming in!

Posted by: nprev Nov 29 2018, 05:53 AM

Kudos to the MRO team for the great try. I doubt that many of us can appreciate the level of effort required to even attempt this sort of feat. smile.gif

Onward!

Posted by: nprev Nov 29 2018, 07:04 AM

From https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/mars-mission-got-lucky-nasa-lander-touched-down-sand-filled-crater-easing-study-planets?fbclid=IwAR155fUGB3NMptg4Ie9ewSZ2Fo2W6-kUWrlGnkBqyKeTQj2IEW_8KoCslkM:

"Now, a friendly competition is on. Golombek and his peers hope to beat the satellites to fixing InSight’s location. They should have until 6 December, when an orbiter will likely capture it. Right now, they’re stretching out the scant imagery, trying to compare their hollow to existing high-resolution maps. Their job will get much easier next week, when the camera on the robotic arm’s elbow will be extended to photograph the lander’s terrain in detail."

Posted by: Ant103 Nov 29 2018, 10:04 AM

What happened to the "raw" images page ?

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/

There is none.

Posted by: serpens Nov 29 2018, 10:10 AM

Er....yes there are.....???

Posted by: RoverDriver Nov 29 2018, 10:13 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 28 2018, 11:04 PM) *
From https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/mars-mission-got-lucky-nasa-lander-touched-down-sand-filled-crater-easing-study-planets?fbclid=IwAR155fUGB3NMptg4Ie9ewSZ2Fo2W6-kUWrlGnkBqyKeTQj2IEW_8KoCslkM:

"Now, a friendly competition is on. Golombek and his peers hope to beat the satellites to fixing InSight’s location...."


I was thinking that Tim Parker in a couple of days after landing had Curiosity location to within 50cm using FHAZ, then realized InSight is in a parking lot without many features on the horizon. But if he managed to keep track of Opportunity while driving to Endeavour I'm pretty sure he will be able to do it in his sleep. ;-)

Paolo

Posted by: Ant103 Nov 29 2018, 10:25 AM

This is odd. I updated the page after cache erase, and now I have the pictures…

Posted by: nprev Nov 29 2018, 01:04 PM

The location 'race' is interesting, but the money quote there to me was that the elbow cam will begin surveying the surroundings next week. smile.gif

Posted by: ChrisC Nov 29 2018, 04:14 PM

We didn't see any new images appear on the "raw images" site during Sol 2. I'm guessing they must have taken some and downlinked them. Therefore, it appears that we do not have the near-real-time pipeline of images to the public like we've seen on some previous missions, right?

EDIT: I don't want to clutter the forum with a new post, and this forum doesn't support "likes", so ... thank you Doug for your insightful reply! (immediately below)

Posted by: djellison Nov 29 2018, 04:33 PM

QUOTE (ChrisC @ Nov 29 2018, 08:14 AM) *
right?


There are huge number of reasons that would cause there to be no images for a given sol. Spacecraft issues, DSN or Relay issues, to just straight up not commanding the acquisition of any images on a given sol.

The InSight raw image page is probably the best version of a raw image pipeline I've ever seen. There is no reason to suggest the pipeline is down right now.

Posted by: volcanopele Nov 29 2018, 05:07 PM

We were warned that this would be a slower paced mission than we're used to.

Posted by: JRehling Nov 29 2018, 05:07 PM

I hope this is at least 51% relevant for this thread… I noticed last night that the ExoMars rover's landing platform will also have a seismometer onboard. With a landing date of April 2021, this creates a piquant proximity to Insight's end of main mission. It would surely be a value-add to have two working seismometers on Mars at the same time, so that the location of any large quakes could be pinpointed. It looks like they may overlap either for a short time, if Insight functions for just two years, or perhaps much longer if Insight has the kind of extended lifespan that other martian missions have had.

Posted by: centsworth_II Nov 29 2018, 05:10 PM

QUOTE (Ant103 @ Nov 29 2018, 06:04 AM) *
What happened to the "raw" images page ?

I see images using your link, but just the six. Three of each view. I wonder when new images will be coming.

Posted by: Steve G Nov 29 2018, 05:40 PM

This mission will definitely deviate from what we are used to. First, I'm still scratching my head at the torturously slow (three month) deployment of the two surface experiments. Most notably, this is not a picture taking mission. Furthermore, if it hadn't been for the delay over the seismometer, we'd be looking at black and white pictures only. The InSight project upgraded their cameras from single-channel greyscale to RGB colour by replacing the detectors with a Bayer-pattern version of the same resolution as the original detectors. This mission is not designed to take pretty pictures. It's designed to explore the interior of Mars. That will take some adjustments from the rovers where we get a new panorama every few sols.

Posted by: Explorer1 Nov 29 2018, 05:58 PM

They have to be much more careful with the robotic arm than Phoenix was. The latter could (and did) lose soil out of the scoop due to wind, or just dumped it on the deck of the lander because of how clumpy it was. InSight needs to do the reverse, and carefully take the seismometer, its cover, and heat flow probe into their appropriate spots. As I mentioned above, there is no spacecraft-killing winter at this latitude, so they really have no need to rush.

Posted by: PaulM Nov 29 2018, 06:03 PM

QUOTE (Steve G @ Nov 29 2018, 06:40 PM) *
This mission will definitely deviate from what we are used to. First, I'm still scratching my head at the torturously slow (three month) deployment of the two surface experiments. Most notably, this is not a picture taking mission. Furthermore, if it hadn't been for the delay over the seismometer, we'd be looking at black and white pictures only. The InSight project upgraded their cameras from single-channel greyscale to RGB colour by replacing the detectors with a Bayer-pattern version of the same resolution as the original detectors. This mission is not designed to take pretty pictures. It's designed to explore the interior of Mars. That will take some adjustments from the rovers where we get a new panorama every few sols.

Presumably there will be curiosity style selfies taken by the camera on the instrument arm to check that the instruments did not move on the deck during the landing and to provide 3D maps of the instrument deployment area.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 29 2018, 06:30 PM

Keep in mind that on a day when we don't get a new image, other things are going on. I don't know what those things might be on any given day, but over the next week or so the arm and the instruments are probably being powered on and checked very carefully to ensure everything is in good shape. Nobody likes images more than I do, and we will see them soon.

Phil

Posted by: MahFL Nov 29 2018, 06:35 PM

QUOTE (Steve G @ Nov 29 2018, 06:40 PM) *
... First, I'm still scratching my head at the torturously slow (three month) deployment of the two surface experiments...



Well in reality they are going to be deploying the instruments 2 or 3 times in the sandbox here on Earth, before they do it with Insight on Mars, so that takes time.

Posted by: Blue Sky Nov 29 2018, 07:05 PM

Between the two pictures, a small rectangular piece of equipment has rotated to the right just in front of the large square black thing, which reveals more of two mysterious white objects that look to be on the ground. I do not see any other white patches in the distance.

Posted by: James Sorenson Nov 29 2018, 07:56 PM

What is so mysterious about it? That "white patch" is a piece of lander deck hardware.

Posted by: elakdawalla Nov 29 2018, 08:52 PM

Another thing that is different about InSight is that from the beginning, they are not operating on Mars Time. They're working early and late slide sols as needed, but to keep operational costs lower they did not staff up to the level that would be required for Mars Time operations. So they'll spend some chunk of their time effectively in restricted sols.

Posted by: Explorer1 Nov 29 2018, 10:08 PM

I found a very detailed summary of deployment procedure/timeline here: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/11/insight-healthy-two-earth-year-primary-science-mission/

Posted by: monitorlizard Nov 30 2018, 12:00 AM

Just a quick thought about the Insight payload. If the spacecraft did indeed land on a sand sheet or filled crater, it might be a problem for the seismometer. Any thickness of sand would, if I understand seismometers correctly, cause seismic signals to be dissipated before they reach the instrument. Sand, being much less compacted than rock, would not conduct a seismic signal nearly as well. Even soil should conduct better. I would love to be proven wrong. Alternate opinions welcomed.

Posted by: MahFL Nov 30 2018, 12:46 AM

QUOTE (monitorlizard @ Nov 30 2018, 12:00 AM) *
Just a quick thought about the Insight payload. If the spacecraft did indeed land on a sand sheet or filled crater, it might be a problem for the seismometer. Any thickness of sand would, if I understand seismometers correctly, cause seismic signals to be dissipated before they reach the instrument. Sand, being much less compacted than rock, would not conduct a seismic signal nearly as well. Even soil should conduct better. I would love to be proven wrong. Alternate opinions welcomed.


It's super sensitive, it can detect half the movement made by the vibration of a hydrogen atom. If something bangs into Mars, it'll detect it.

Posted by: PaulH51 Nov 30 2018, 12:47 AM

Does anyone know if they have an official mission clock for InSight? Similar to the one we have for Curiosity https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/mission/whereistherovernow/ that shows the sol and current solar time.

Posted by: nprev Nov 30 2018, 12:50 AM

Per the Science article I posted earlier, the team does not seem to be concerned about that; quite the opposite, in fact. I'd guess that level, stable placement is much more critical, and that they are able to compensate for any attenuation that might be induced by a few meters of sand (if there's that much.)

Also provides good digging for the mole, which could help refine their understanding of the sand's properties to further refine their seismic compensation model.

Posted by: MahFL Nov 30 2018, 12:57 AM

QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Nov 30 2018, 12:47 AM) *
Does anyone know if they have an official mission clock for InSight? Similar to the one we have for Curiosity https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/mission/whereistherovernow/ that shows the sol and current solar time.


https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/


Posted by: HSchirmer Nov 30 2018, 01:36 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 30 2018, 12:50 AM) *
Per the Science article I posted earlier, the team does not seem to be concerned about that; quite the opposite, in fact. I'd guess that level, stable placement is much more critical, and that they are able to compensate for any attenuation that might be induced by a few meters of sand (if there's that much.)

Also provides good digging for the mole, which could help refine their understanding of the sand's properties to further refine their seismic compensation model.


Agreed on the mole, guesstimate is about 3 meters of sand, probe has around 5 meters of tether, so they're good for getting to bedrock.
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/spacecraft/instruments/seis/

QUOTE
Just a quick thought about the Insight payload. If the spacecraft did indeed land on a sand sheet or filled crater, it might be a problem for the seismometer. Any thickness of sand would, if I understand seismometers correctly, cause seismic signals to be dissipated before they reach the instrument. Sand, being much less compacted than rock, would not conduct a seismic signal nearly as well. Even soil should conduct better. I would love to be proven wrong. Alternate opinions welcomed.


If the sand were recent uncompacted dunes like you get on Earth seashore, that might be a problem.
Most dunes on Mars are suspected to be ancient, so the sand is likely filled in with fine dust.
The landing area is on the slope between the highlands and the lowlands,

Check out Figure #9 about possible sediment transport at the Highlands/Lowlands border
http://oro.open.ac.uk/56400/1/The%20Hypanis%20Valles%20delta_%20The%20last%20highstand%20of%20a%20sea%20on%20early%20Mars_.pdf

if the lowlands were oceans, then mudflats, there ought to be a range of sediment paricle sizes, which bodes well for seismic transmission.

Posted by: SpaceListener Nov 30 2018, 01:37 AM

QUOTE (monitorlizard @ Nov 29 2018, 06:00 PM) *
Just a quick thought about the Insight payload. ... Alternate opinions welcomed.

The seismometer is based on electronic components and it doesn't need to be laid on firm land or on a rock. It is like to ASLEP from Apollo missions from 12 to 17 which were laid on the moon's regolith.

Posted by: tanjent Nov 30 2018, 02:44 AM

What about the insulating effect of sand on heat flow? Ideally, wouldn't both the seismometer and the heat probe prefer not to be insulated from the bedrock by something porous and absorbent, like a layer of sand? The instruments may have been designed to see through a certain amount of softer material, but I don't see how it can fail to have some muffling effect.

We may hope that the ease-of-placement benefits of the sandy terrain can outweigh the sensitivity costs.

Posted by: HSchirmer Nov 30 2018, 03:05 AM

QUOTE (tanjent @ Nov 30 2018, 02:44 AM) *
wouldn't both the seismometer and the heat probe prefer not to be insulated from the bedrock by something porous and absorbent, like a layer of sand?


As I understand it, Seis (seismometer) and Hp3 (heat probe) are optimal in opposite situations, but are both workable in the expected middle ground that insight actually got.

The seismometer is designed to be supremely sensitive
https://www.seis-insight.eu/en/public-2/seis-instrument/summary
Seems like that experiment wants no regolith to get best vibration, but they're confident that
they can work with regolith.

The heat probe is designed to burrow through up to 5 meters of regolith, then (perhaps) hits bedrock.
https://www.seis-insight.eu/en/public-2/the-insight-mission/other-instruments
That experiment WANTS a deep regolith to get heat flow numbers.

Posted by: tanjent Nov 30 2018, 04:03 AM

Thanks!
Those are great articles - they really clarify a lot of issues I had been wondering about!

Posted by: 7B8 Nov 30 2018, 11:31 AM

QUOTE (MahFL @ Nov 27 2018, 04:45 PM) *
The PI did say small rocks would be pushed aside by the Mole, but if it hit a big flat rock then that was as far as they could go, it won't go upwards. It's all about risk.


In that context, I found this publication helpful (https://elib.dlr.de/121308/1/Spohn_et_al-2018-Space_Science_Reviews.pdf). I also wondered how well the mole would cope with any buried rocks.

They say:
QUOTE
If the Mole encounters a rock larger than a few 10s of cm as it moves forward, it could be blocked from further advancement. The likelihood of such an encounter between the surface and the required (3 m) or target (5 m) depths
has been calculated to be 43% and 59%, respectively. This estimate uses the most pessimistic models, [...]


QUOTE
If less conservative assumptions are made about surface rock abundance (e.g., 2.5% or less) and demonstrated capabilities of the Mole are allowed for (e.g., the Mole can push rocks up to 15 cm out of its way within the regolith, and can also deflect around rocks encountered at angles ≤45 degrees), the probability of success increases to 98% and 90%, respectively.

Posted by: dmg Nov 30 2018, 03:01 PM

QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Nov 29 2018, 04:47 PM) *
Does anyone know if they have an official mission clock for InSight? Similar to the one we have for Curiosity https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/mission/whereistherovernow/ that shows the sol and current solar time.


I found and purchased ($0.99) the iPhone app "Mars-Clock" that has all this info. in detail for the current landed probes on Mars including InSight. It can be found on the app store -- be sure to look carefully as there are other similar apps available that (as of a few days ago) did not have info. for InSight. I'm not sure if there is anything on the web with this detailed info. or for other mobile platforms.

Posted by: HSchirmer Nov 30 2018, 05:21 PM

QUOTE (7B8 @ Nov 30 2018, 11:31 AM) *
QUOTE
If the Mole encounters a rock larger than a few 10s of cm as it moves forward, it could be blocked from further advancement. The likelihood of such an encounter between the surface and the required (3 m) or target (5 m) depths
has been calculated to be 43% and 59%, respectively. This estimate uses the most pessimistic models, ...


You know, after reading that, deploying the seismometer first and then moving the probe around as a "thumper" to create a 3d
map of the underground location of the big rocks you need to avoid, isn't such a crazy idea after all...

Posted by: Steve5304 Nov 30 2018, 05:21 PM

We have never drilled more than a scratch under the surface. This is completely uncharted territory. Will the material in the well get analyzed?

Exciting stuff

Posted by: Paolo Nov 30 2018, 05:34 PM

QUOTE (Steve5304 @ Nov 30 2018, 06:21 PM) *
Will the material in the well get analyzed?


nope. the mission is about seismology and heat balance, not about chemistry

Posted by: Deimos Nov 30 2018, 06:31 PM

Since I didn't see a clock, I put this together. Should be within a second or so until the next leap second.
https://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~lemmon/mars-nsyt.html

Posted by: stevesliva Nov 30 2018, 07:20 PM

QUOTE (Steve5304 @ Nov 30 2018, 12:21 PM) *
We have never drilled more than a scratch under the surface.


But trenching has been done.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 30 2018, 07:26 PM

In my post on the second page of this thread I showed part of a HiRISE image in the area east of the target point, where I expected the lander to be. I have since learned that we are in fact west of the target, where the surface is a lot smoother than shown in that image. Can't be more specific now.

Phil


Posted by: Steve5304 Nov 30 2018, 07:34 PM

QUOTE (stevesliva @ Nov 30 2018, 07:20 PM) *
But trenching has been done.



yeah but not 16 feet.

That's pretty deep, we might get some surprises

Posted by: atomoid Nov 30 2018, 08:03 PM

QUOTE (HSchirmer @ Nov 30 2018, 09:21 AM) *
You know, after reading that, deploying the seismometer first and then moving the probe around as a "thumper" to create a 3d
map of the underground location of the big rocks you need to avoid, isn't such a crazy idea after all...

I was actually wondering if the system was designed to be able to "reel-in" the mole by its scientific tether to try a different location in case it were to meet criteria for mission failure by hitting an unmovable rock at too shallow a depth, but cant seem to find any mention of that, and seems highly risky anyways.. but on the other hand, such seismic imaging should also be possible by tapping the ground at strategic points with the deployment arm's bucket, or perhaps most safely by simply dropping scoops of regolith, no?

Posted by: mcaplinger Nov 30 2018, 08:04 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 29 2018, 05:04 AM) *
The location 'race' is interesting...

[deleted]

Posted by: elakdawalla Nov 30 2018, 08:07 PM

Whoa!

Posted by: mcaplinger Nov 30 2018, 08:21 PM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Nov 30 2018, 12:07 PM) *
Whoa!

Keep in mind that the landing ellipse was several CTX swaths wide, so missing wouldn't be that surprising.

Posted by: MahFL Dec 1 2018, 12:41 AM

Insight breaks solar power producing record on Mars.

https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8395/mars-new-home-a-large-sandbox/?site=insight

Posted by: nprev Dec 1 2018, 01:18 AM

Big error on the graphic in that article, though; the Viking landers were nuclear-powered, not solar.

Posted by: MahFL Dec 1 2018, 01:33 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 1 2018, 01:18 AM) *
Big error on the graphic in that article, though; the Viking landers were nuclear-powered, not solar.


Well spotted biggrin.gif

Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 1 2018, 02:14 AM

QUOTE (Deimos @ Dec 1 2018, 02:31 AM) *
Since I didn't see a clock, I put this together. Should be within a second or so until the next leap second.
https://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~lemmon/mars-nsyt.html

Neat... TQVM smile.gif

Posted by: Deimos Dec 1 2018, 02:28 AM

Still dusty on ICC, but coolness above: https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight

Posted by: nprev Dec 1 2018, 02:37 AM

Is the ICC cover still on, then?

Posted by: ddeerrff Dec 1 2018, 02:53 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 30 2018, 08:37 PM) *
Is the ICC cover still on, then?


No, its off. Think they need to send up a tech with a lens cloth to clean that lens.

Posted by: mcaplinger Dec 1 2018, 03:20 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 30 2018, 06:37 PM) *
Is the ICC cover still on, then?

As noted, it's off. The cover didn't work very well, apparently.

Turns out that very wide-field fisheyes like this one can be more susceptible than narrower-field optics to dust contamination, somewhat paradoxically.

Posted by: James Sorenson Dec 1 2018, 03:22 AM

I think the wind is already starting to clean the lens. Dust after the cover came off is easily seen removed over the coarse of 33 minutes! Looks like we landed in a very windy location. smile.gif


Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 1 2018, 03:24 AM

No, the circular outline is gone - dust must have sneaked in under the cover, though not too much and we can hope it will blow off.

EDIT - didn't see there was an extra page of posts! Oops.


Phil

Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 1 2018, 03:27 AM

Nice work James
Also from sol 4
Arm / Scoop movement prior to full deployment smile.gif


Posted by: propguy Dec 1 2018, 03:55 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Nov 30 2018, 08:24 PM) *
No, the circular outline is gone - dust must have sneaked in under the cover, though not too much and we can hope it will blow off.


It looks like my descent thrusters blew dust under the cover. Sorry. Hopefully wind will clear the lens. Twelve sets of 300 N (68 lbf) thrusters pulsing at 10 Hz creates a lot of dynamics. Also it looks like the one footpad visible in the photo sank 75 mm (3") or so into the surface. Certainly different than Phoenix (which makes sense since PHX landed on frozen soil).


Posted by: James Sorenson Dec 1 2018, 04:02 AM

Propguy,

I think we will deal. If it weren't for the descent thrusters, the camera would have a heck of alot more dust on it...embedded in the subsurface. wink.gif

Posted by: jccwrt Dec 1 2018, 04:13 AM

Tried some debanding on one of the new MarCO-B images, taken during the approach phase. Distance was about 18,000 km. If Phobos was within the FOV, it was lost in the compression/noise.



Another from the departure phase, taken from a distance of 17,500 km.


Posted by: hendric Dec 1 2018, 07:42 AM

QUOTE (propguy @ Nov 30 2018, 09:55 PM) *
It looks like my descent thrusters blew dust under the cover. Sorry. Hopefully wind will clear the lens. Twelve sets of 300 N (68 lbf) thrusters pulsing at 10 Hz creates a lot of dynamics. Also it looks like the one footpad visible in the photo sank 75 mm (3") or so into the surface. Certainly different than Phoenix (which makes sense since PHX landed on frozen soil).


Strange, looking at the animation I don't really see much correlation between dust after the cover opens and visible dust while it was closed. Maybe flipping the cover open caused dust to fly off it and static electricity made some land back on the lens? Esp. when looking at the sky, I don't see much correlation at all between before and after opening. Obvious dust particles that fell off by the third image aren't present in the first one, as far as I can tell.

Posted by: RoverDriver Dec 1 2018, 10:06 AM

QUOTE (propguy @ Nov 30 2018, 07:55 PM) *
It looks like my descent thrusters blew dust under the cover. Sorry. Hopefully wind will clear the lens. Twelve sets of 300 N (68 lbf) thrusters pulsing at 10 Hz creates a lot of dynamics. Also it looks like the one footpad visible in the photo sank 75 mm (3") or so into the surface. Certainly different than Phoenix (which makes sense since PHX landed on frozen soil).


Well, it beats the alternative, dosn't it? It must have been quite loud upon landing. Given the compression of the soil and using the acceleration on impact it should be possible to assess the compactness of the soil. That would be interesting to see if the landing location still fits the expectations. I'm sure this will be used when evaluating where to drill.

Paolo


Posted by: nprev Dec 1 2018, 10:51 AM

Real curious now to see just how much dust might've been blown away from the lander. There might be some shallow depressions around the thruster areas as well.

Posted by: Steve G Dec 1 2018, 02:13 PM

Latest raw images showing the arm getting it's first workout.

Posted by: Explorer1 Dec 1 2018, 02:48 PM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Dec 1 2018, 05:06 AM) *
Well, it beats the alternative, dosn't it? It must have been quite loud upon landing. Given the compression of the soil and using the acceleration on impact it should be possible to assess the compactness of the soil. That would be interesting to see if the landing location still fits the expectations. I'm sure this will be used when evaluating where to drill.

Paolo


Would the 'hand' on the arm be at all useful for measuring the soil properties? After the instruments are safely placed, can it reach down far enough to directly touch the surface, perhaps make a small indention/trench?

Posted by: fredk Dec 1 2018, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (hendric @ Dec 1 2018, 08:42 AM) *
Strange, looking at the animation I don't really see much correlation between dust after the cover opens and visible dust while it was closed. Maybe flipping the cover open caused dust to fly off it and static electricity made some land back on the lens?

Good point. Or maybe there was so much dust caked around the cover that we had a large cloud when it opened and some settled back on the lens.

Or, maybe dust wasn't deposited after the opening, but was on the lens before opening (ie sneaked under the cover during landing) and just moved due to wind after opening. Given the low correlation that seems less likely.

Posted by: pospa Dec 1 2018, 03:11 PM

QUOTE (Explorer1 @ Dec 1 2018, 04:48 PM) *
After the instruments are safely placed, can it reach down far enough to directly touch the surface, perhaps make a small indention/trench?


Of course. smile.gif
"... InSight's robotic arm also has a bucket with a capacity of roughly 500 g of soil. However, this bucket is not intended for massive excavation works; its main role is to prepare the ground as well as possible before setting the instruments down. It allows engineers to shift a stone that is in the way, flatten a little mound in an otherwise optimal deployment sector, or simply check the nature of the ground."
https://www.seis-insight.eu/en/public-2/the-insight-mission/the-ida-robotic-arm

Posted by: Decepticon Dec 1 2018, 03:11 PM

Im confused.

Is the Protective cap on the camera stuck or not?

Posted by: Explorer1 Dec 1 2018, 03:15 PM

No; it came off just fine. There just seems to have been dust underneath it somehow. It's not a big issue; and hopefully the wind will blow much of it away (same hopes as for Opportunity; windy season is upon us!)

Posted by: propguy Dec 1 2018, 04:28 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 1 2018, 03:51 AM) *
Real curious now to see just how much dust might've been blown away from the lander. There might be some shallow depressions around the thruster areas as well.

I also wonder. Since PHX was able to erode some of the frozen soil underneath the lander, I fully suspect we moved lots of regolith. What would confirm would be a similar shot as PHX's underneath view https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/phoenix/20080531/under-full.jpg, but not sure if we can get such a shot with the IDC. On PHX the imager was at the end of the arm, thus it could be moved to view underneath. On InSight this same shot may not get down enough to see underneath. Landed ops team is way to busy for me to bug them with that question. I will ask once they have fully deployed and finished the workspace survey with the IDC. Sure would love to see some portion of my prop system.

Posted by: MahFL Dec 1 2018, 05:08 PM

QUOTE (pospa @ Dec 1 2018, 04:11 PM) *
Of course. smile.gif
"... InSight's robotic arm also has a bucket with a capacity of roughly 500 g of soil. However, this bucket is not intended for massive excavation works; its main role is to prepare the ground as well as possible before setting the instruments down. It allows engineers to shift a stone that is in the way, flatten a little mound in an otherwise optimal deployment sector, or simply check the nature of the ground."
https://www.seis-insight.eu/en/public-2/the-insight-mission/the-ida-robotic-arm


I was wondering why they even had a bucket, ty for that.

Posted by: Steve G Dec 1 2018, 05:49 PM

I always wondered why MSL rovers aren't equipped with a second arm with a scoop. It would allow much deeper samples, and the additional weight is not that restrictive.

Posted by: mcaplinger Dec 1 2018, 06:00 PM

QUOTE (Steve G @ Dec 1 2018, 09:49 AM) *
the additional weight is not that restrictive.

Uh, what? How much do you think arms weigh?

The original MSL design did have two arms, one for sampling and one for contact science, but that got descoped pretty quickly.

Posted by: djellison Dec 1 2018, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Steve G @ Dec 1 2018, 09:49 AM) *
the additional weight is not that restrictive.


Curiosity's arm is 67kg before you add 33kg of hardware on the end of it
See http://esmats.eu/esmatspapers/pastpapers/pdfs/2011/billing.pdf

That's pretty darn restrictive.

It's more than 1/3rd the weight of an entire MER rover.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 1 2018, 07:23 PM

A bit more on the use of the arm for digging etc. and imaging under the lander, in resonse to questions posted here.

Recent papers in Space Science Reviews discuss this at length, especially the second one listed here.


Trebi-Ollennu, A., et al. "InSight Mars lander robotics instrument deployment system." Space Science Reviews 214.5 (2018): 93.

says that physical properties experiments can include indentation, collapse of trench walls, and scraped and excavated dump piles.


Golombek, M., et al. "Geology and physical properties investigations by the InSight lander." Space Science Reviews 214.5 (2018): 84.


Says the IDA can make soil piles of different sizes and shapes to be monitored with the cameras, and press into the ground for bearing strength tests.

Says that the IDC will image the footpads, the area under the lander and the surroundings, so the effects of surface modifications can be studied including depressions made by the thrusters.



Phil

Posted by: marsman2020 Dec 1 2018, 07:57 PM

With respect to the dust cover effectiveness. Here's some potentially useful context from Curiosity (I have no information on the InSight covers specifically)

Because the HazCams were a build to print of MER, they had already been qualification tested in a no-dust cover configuration when the risk of dirty HazCams was identified as requiring mitigation. As a result, the dust covers were not allowed to actually touch the lens assembly of the HazCam (to a avoid driving forces into the lens assembly that the camera was not qualified for). So it was accepted going in that they did not make a perfect seal. The cover hardware created a tortuous path that would require any dust to make 180 and 90 degree turns before ending up on the lens.

The dust cover implementation was a balance of not doing anything that would hurt the camera, against having the best cover possible. Lots of discussions and working with the camera team to arrive at something everyone was satisfied with.

Since InSight re-used a spare HazCam, the same 'no touch' requirement may have been imposed on this dust cover. It's possible that the dust and engine exhaust flow environment created by the lander engines is different than a rover under a skycrane, which allowed more dust to get around the cover onto the glass.

My impression (based on everything I've read online) is that the current view will be completely OK for the uses of this camera. Dust on Curiosity's HazCams was more of a concern in terms of meeting mission requirements for drive distances - using the NavCams as backup hazard avoidance makes driving much slower.

Edit: I also think if you look at the Sol 0 picture with the covers on, and the picture right before the covers deploy on Sol 4 - there is a lot of motion of the larger dust on the cover within that time. So there seems to be a lot of wind moving dust around.

Posted by: mcaplinger Dec 1 2018, 08:15 PM

The dust on the ICC lens makes me wonder how dusty the Phoenix MARDI would have been had we ever managed to get a post-landing image out of it. Unfortunately there was a sequence glitch in the one attempt that was made, and PHX died before we could try again.

Posted by: JRehling Dec 1 2018, 08:25 PM

Moment of well-meaning pedantry here: Weight and mass have been mentioned several times and there's that factor of 2.64 difference between Earth and Mars, as well as the distinction between weight (in, eg, Newtons) and mass (kg). For any given object, its mass, weight on Earth, and weight on Mars are three different numbers. I'm not sure that anyone has made any mistakes in the posts above, but there's a lot of potential confusion here.

Posted by: mcaplinger Dec 1 2018, 09:30 PM

QUOTE (JRehling @ Dec 1 2018, 12:25 PM) *
I'm not sure that anyone has made any mistakes in the posts above, but there's a lot of potential confusion here.

If you say that something weighs X kilograms, you really mean that it has a mass of X kilograms. I've never heard anyone in aerospace try to use some other verb than weigh in this context. Using "mass" as a verb ala Heinlein has never caught on.

Units of force are a different matter and in my experience that's where the confusion comes in.

Posted by: MahFL Dec 1 2018, 09:36 PM

QUOTE (JRehling @ Dec 1 2018, 08:25 PM) *
Moment of well-meaning pedantry here: Weight and mass have been mentioned several times and there's that factor of 2.64 difference between Earth and Mars, as well as the distinction between weight (in, eg, Newtons) and mass (kg). For any given object, its mass, weight on Earth, and weight on Mars are three different numbers. I'm not sure that anyone has made any mistakes in the posts above, but there's a lot of potential confusion here.


As it is, the Insight lander is heavier than Phoenix, using the same landing jets, maybe Propguy can inform us how much more margin is in the lander for future heavier missions ?

Posted by: mcaplinger Dec 1 2018, 10:20 PM

QUOTE (MahFL @ Dec 1 2018, 01:36 PM) *
As it is, the Insight lander is heavier than Phoenix, using the same landing jets...

10 kg more landed mass from what I can tell (360 kg for InSight). From what I know of the design I don't think there's a lot more mass margin. All 12 engines at full thrust produces about 3600 newtons which is about 2.6x more than needed to hover (if I did that right), but they don't run all 12 engines at full thrust and there's the rocket equation to think of.

Posted by: Ant103 Dec 1 2018, 11:25 PM

I did a little something on the last ICC image. Yet dusty but I hope it'll get better in the next few weeks smile.gif

In equirectangular projection, I think we can have a clearer view of a part of the landing site. Especially that the horizon seems to be a little bit "curvy".

http://www.db-prods.net/marsroversimages/InSight/2018/Sol4_ICC_rectangular.jpg

Posted by: marsophile Dec 2 2018, 01:09 AM

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0004/idc/D000M0004_596887518EDR_F0000_0545M_.PNG

This image from the IDC camera is more obscured than from the other cameras. Is the dust cover still on for this one? Is the lens cloudy?

Note the rainbow-like artifact on the left side of the image, and a bright disc-like artifact near the center.

Posted by: Floyd Dec 2 2018, 01:15 AM

Having the Sun in the corner of the frame often does bad things...

Posted by: mcaplinger Dec 2 2018, 01:22 AM

QUOTE (marsophile @ Dec 1 2018, 05:09 PM) *
This image from the IDC camera is more obscured than from the other cameras.

There are only two cameras, ICC and IDC. This is an image with the sun near the FOV. I assumed they moved the arm and this is the sky.

I'm not sure if the IDC had a cover (website says there is one, but I'm not sure if that's true) or if it's been removed.

https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2018/pdf/2764.pdf

Posted by: Steve G Dec 2 2018, 01:41 AM

Great work! The equirectangular projection really helps to characterize the landing site. Definitely looks like it lander close to a good sized impact crater with ejecta around the crater rim.

Posted by: fredk Dec 2 2018, 01:59 AM

Phil-o-vision, 3x vertical, of Ant's reprojection:


Posted by: MahFL Dec 2 2018, 02:28 AM

QUOTE (Ant103 @ Dec 1 2018, 11:25 PM) *
I did a little something on the last ICC image. Yet dusty but I hope it'll get better in the next few weeks smile.gif
In equirectangular projection, I think we can have a clearer view of a part of the landing site.


That is truly awesome work.

Posted by: ronatu Dec 2 2018, 03:13 AM



Mars....

Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 2 2018, 09:02 AM

QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Dec 2 2018, 09:22 AM) *
There are only two cameras, ICC and IDC. This is an image with the sun near the FOV. I assumed they moved the arm and this is the sky.

https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2018/pdf/2764.pdf

Does anyone have Figure 2 & Figure 3 from that PDF in larger format? They would all be nice to have, especially 2c for sizing pebbles etc near the lander smile.gif

Posted by: djellison Dec 2 2018, 03:20 PM

The IDC moves. That range data would only be valid for that pose, pointed at that terrain in the test bed.

Posted by: fredk Dec 2 2018, 05:30 PM

QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Dec 2 2018, 10:02 AM) *
Does anyone have Figure 2 & Figure 3 from that PDF in larger format? They would all be nice to have, especially 2c for sizing pebbles etc near the lander

You could get rough pebble sizes from Fig 3, knowing the sizes of SEIS and the cable, and assuming level ground and lander in test bed and on Mars.

Posted by: Ant103 Dec 2 2018, 07:21 PM

QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Dec 2 2018, 02:22 AM) *
I'm not sure if the IDC had a cover (website says there is one, but I'm not sure if that's true) or if it's been removed.

https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2018/pdf/2764.pdf


IDC is having a cover, as this image seems to show. I guess…



Posted by: PDP8E Dec 3 2018, 02:17 AM

I cleaned up all the fisheye 'lens cover' images and then the 'cover removed' images and put them in a gif



observations and impressions:
* the 'grayed out section' in the lower left was to get rid of a 'residual arm shadow' (that moved between images) and made the ground to left look like a rock(!)
* the 'big rock' has a very circular pattern on top (multiple?) that looks to these aging eyes that it was cleaned off by a blast from a propulsion nozzle
* there appears to an engine blast pattern to the left of the big rock
* there appears to be 'straight lines' leading up to the right side landing pad, left to right, at an angle that parallels the outboard strut ... blast patterns or skid marks(?)
* the whole left side of the image appears to be 'cleaned out' of pebbles and small rocks, as opposed the right side of the image (blast effect? or just plain old luck?)

as always, your mileage may vary...

Cheers!

Posted by: JRehling Dec 3 2018, 03:03 AM

QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Dec 1 2018, 02:30 PM) *
If you say that something weighs X kilograms, you really mean that it has a mass of X kilograms. I've never heard anyone in aerospace try to use some other verb than weigh in this context. Using "mass" as a verb ala Heinlein has never caught on.


That's how I've interpreted it when hardware is discussed. The sentence that caught my eye was "InSight's robotic arm also has a bucket with a capacity of roughly 500 g of soil." Since soil isn't hardware, it seemed ambiguous to me whether that indicated soil that would weigh 500 g on Earth or whether the arm can lift 500 g of soil, which on Mars will be more like 1250 g (if it were weighed on Earth). [It's moreover ambiguous whether weight or volume is the actual bottleneck.]

I guess to be consistent, the mass is what one should use for samples, too.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 3 2018, 04:59 AM

Because 'weight' is ambiguous - might refer to Earth or Mars - the planet has to be specified whenever it is used. If it's not specified, assume mass is intended.

Phil

Posted by: serpens Dec 3 2018, 06:25 AM

Mass is a constant. Weight is a locational variable.

Posted by: xflare Dec 3 2018, 06:44 AM

QUOTE (PDP8E @ Dec 3 2018, 02:17 AM) *
I cleaned up all the fisheye 'lens cover' images and then the 'cover removed' images and put them in a gif


Is it my imagination, or does it look like there is actually more dust on the lens after the cover was removed? blink.gif

Posted by: peter.neaum Dec 3 2018, 07:27 AM

QUOTE (xflare @ Dec 3 2018, 06:44 AM) *
Is it my imagination, or does it look like there is actually more dust on the lens after the cover was removed? blink.gif


It does appear to be the case. I wonder if there's a static charge or such occurring?
For a camera with a (removed) lens cover, there's quite a bit of dust!
Here a quick animation showing the two frames so far - Sol4, 12:53:51 PM vs 13:27:07 PM


Posted by: Station Dec 3 2018, 09:09 AM

I decided not to wait any longer for Mars' dust devils mercy and personally cleaned up the lens a bit wink.gif





Also below some "upright" perspective



Posted by: Decepticon Dec 3 2018, 09:36 AM

Great work!

Posted by: Floyd Dec 3 2018, 12:07 PM

If static charge is a problem attracting particles, maybe future lens designs for landing missions would include an electrically conductive lens coating (atomically thin metal and organics are transparent)? Or is the entire craft charged with very slow discharge through feet?

Posted by: nprev Dec 3 2018, 01:27 PM

Very nicely done, Station!

Re static charge, it's of course too early to tell if this is happening or not. Never seemed to be a problem for cams on other landed spacecraft, though they also didn't land dead square in dustbowls.

If that is what's going on here then I'd expect it the charge to gradually dissipate over time since the lander is in contact with the surface and all of InSight's components are electrically bonded with each other to form a reference ground plane, like any other aerospace vehicle.

Posted by: elakdawalla Dec 3 2018, 05:13 PM

I asked Justin Maki what is happening to the images on their way to the website. He said:

QUOTE
The images are transmitted from Mars as color JPEGs. The images on the website are decompressed versions with the light stretch to make it easy for people to view. We are still fine-tuning the processing of the raw images but it is just a simple histogram percent contrast stretch. Once the camera covers are opened we may tweak the stretch parameters, depending on how things look.

Posted by: JRehling Dec 3 2018, 06:15 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 3 2018, 06:27 AM) *
Re static charge, it's of course too early to tell if this is happening or not. Never seemed to be a problem for cams on other landed spacecraft, though they also didn't land dead square in dustbowls.


Another interesting bit of context is the recent end of the massive dust storm. Maybe dust accumulates charge during such events and tends to lose it over subsequent months and years. There is research supporting the occurrence of lightning in martian dust storms. There was, I think, at least one martian year in every other cases between a major dust storm and the other seven successful landings (2001 until the MERs landed being just over a martian year). In fact, the possibility of an electrical discharge killing the Soviet Mars 3 lander has previously been raised, and the Mars 2 lander failed for yet-unknown reasons. Those entries happened before the 1971 dust storm had ended.

Those clumps of dust may just be a clue as to what happened to the Soviet missions in 1971.

Posted by: HSchirmer Dec 3 2018, 07:30 PM

QUOTE (JRehling @ Dec 3 2018, 06:15 PM) *
Maybe dust accumulates charge during such events and tends to lose it over subsequent months and years.


There was a Sky and Telescope article about dust storms and static charge-
Dust Storm Electricity Might Forge Perchlorates on Mars - https://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/dust-storm-electricity-might-forge-perchlorates-on-mars/

Which is based on a research paper-
Forming perchlorates on Mars through plasma chemistry during dust events - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012821X18305065?dgcid=rss_sd_all

Curiously, perchlorate enhances dry conductivity and is used as a food additive to help dissipate static charge buildup on plastic and cardboard food containers (i.e. your Cheerios don't stick to the plastic bag)

Posted by: Mercure Dec 3 2018, 08:27 PM

It is a bit ironic that Humanity put a lander on Mars but didn't manage to give it a dust cover that keeps dust out... Anyway, this mission is not about the views. The images are perfectly serviceable for putting the seismometer and mole on the ground.

Posted by: RoverDriver Dec 3 2018, 08:54 PM

QUOTE (Mercure @ Dec 3 2018, 12:27 PM) *
It is a bit ironic that Humanity put a lander on Mars but didn't manage to give it a dust cover that keeps dust out...


It has been explained in this thread how the camera and lens cap was designed and why. If you have good ideas, I suggest click on this link: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/opportunities/

Paolo

Posted by: atomoid Dec 3 2018, 09:27 PM

The apparent https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0005/icc/C000M0005_596975725EDR_F0000_0461M_.PNG seem to have exhumed a lot of soil around the rock, which itself appears to be almost perfectly placed that it could focus a blowback of dust back up in the direction of the ICC.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 3 2018, 09:33 PM

Good point about the rock!

Phil

Posted by: kenny Dec 3 2018, 10:20 PM

Emily quotes Justin Maki above as saying : Once the camera covers are opened ...
So maybe the dust specks are on the cover only, not on the lens?


Posted by: djellison Dec 3 2018, 10:41 PM

The ICC cover has been opened. The current dust is on the lens.

It will probably dissipate with time. It has already begun to in just the single sol since it was deployed.

Posted by: MahFL Dec 3 2018, 11:53 PM

A new image is down.

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight

Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 4 2018, 01:36 AM

QUOTE (MahFL @ Dec 4 2018, 07:53 AM) *
A new image is down.
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight

Comparing the sol 5 ICC image with sol 4 (animated GIF) shows some dust reduction on the lens


Posted by: elakdawalla Dec 4 2018, 06:21 AM

It's great that dust is flying off, but until the situation stabilizes, flat fielding will be impossible!

Complaints about dust on images aside, I'd like to point out that when it comes to the purpose for which this camera was put on the spacecraft -- imaging the foreground to guide placement of instruments -- the dust on the lens does not matter at all. The foreground is totally clear enough to guide instrument placement. "Pretty" is desirable for outreach but unnecessary to the accomplishment of mission goals.

Let's hope for some good wind puffs to make our view clearer, but there's zero problem here for the mission.

Posted by: elakdawalla Dec 4 2018, 06:22 AM

I'm actually really intrigued by how deep the footpad has sunk. That's fascinating. I don't think any other footpad on any other mission has done that. Is the soil compressible? Was it blown away, undermined, during the final moments of landing? How did that happen?

Posted by: Paolo Dec 4 2018, 07:54 AM

am I the only one who sees linear features (thruster-blown dust?) in the area between the leg and the big pebble?

Posted by: kenny Dec 4 2018, 09:09 AM

I think that's correct about other lander footpads not sinking as deeply. But some Rover wheels did go deep, doubtless exacerbated by their rotation.

Posted by: HSchirmer Dec 4 2018, 10:00 AM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Dec 4 2018, 07:22 AM) *
... Was it blown away, undermined, during the final moments of landing? How did that happen?


Found a graphic that suggests landing rockets create areas with up to 100k+ Pa of pressure,
that's about 14.6 psi overpressure, should be enough to blow small rocks and stones away.


Anybody know how much hydrazine propellant is left over?
It might be interesting to engage a 1-Newton attitude control thruster and see if that blows sand around.
Hmm, how about using more and more powerful rockets to characterize the range of surface dust-sand-pebble-rock sizes... Seems that the 3 types of thrusters are variable, ~.2 to 1 Newton, ~12-30 Newtons, and ~100-300 Newtons.

Heck, a scoop is nice for trenching, but you've potentially got a 10kPa hydrazine-powered leaf blower to remove the overburden (think Jacque Cousteau vacuuming away the sand to reveal the wreck, just done with rocket exhaust).

Posted by: vikingmars Dec 4 2018, 10:08 AM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Dec 4 2018, 07:22 AM) *
I'm actually really intrigued by how deep the footpad has sunk. That's fascinating. I don't think any other footpad on any other mission has done that. Is the soil compressible? Was it blown away, undermined, during the final moments of landing? How did that happen?

Dear Emily, for your info, footpad #2 of Viking Lander 1 sunk at landing and was buried beneath a cover of loose Martian soil. It sunk about 12 cm, and fine-grained soil slumped into the depression of the footpad and over it

Posted by: elakdawalla Dec 4 2018, 04:15 PM

Cool, thanks!

Posted by: pioneer Dec 4 2018, 06:00 PM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Dec 4 2018, 07:22 AM) *
I'm actually really intrigued by how deep the footpad has sunk. That's fascinating. I don't think any other footpad on any other mission has done that. Is the soil compressible? Was it blown away, undermined, during the final moments of landing? How did that happen?


A scary thought just came to mind unsure.gif : what if the lander landed on quicksand? It's ridiculous, right?

Posted by: hendric Dec 4 2018, 06:04 PM

Pretty much. "Real" quicksand requires liquid water to keep the sand in suspension. Not going to happen on Mars on the surface. I suppose super-fluffy dust or ash is possible, but hasn't been so far. Enough to get a rover caught, but not Neverending Story disappearing beneath the sands.

Posted by: HSchirmer Dec 4 2018, 08:15 PM

QUOTE (pioneer @ Dec 4 2018, 06:00 PM) *
A scary thought just came to mind unsure.gif : what if the lander landed on quicksand? It's ridiculous, right?


Nope, not ridiculous at all. In hindsight, just unlikely.

The Surveyor landings on the Moon were (in part) to make sure the lunar seas were really cooled lava flows that you could land on, not tens of meters of uncompacted or electrostatically levitated dust that you'd sink into.
Turns out there ARE tens of meters of lunar dust, but it's compacted and mixed with larger grains so that it can support the weight.

There are some weird bodies that appear to have "quicksand" surfaces, i.e. just dust without a solid surface.
One is Saturn's egg-shaped moon Methone, which seems to be just dust.
Others are the "dust ponds on asteroids, which seem to accumulate dust in depressions,
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2001/09/dusty-ponds-space
or at the low gravity point between contact binaries.

Now, for trying to answer the question- the problem wouldn't be "quicksand" but "deep loose dust"-
I think the answer would depend on what triggers the landing rockets to shut off.
If the landing rocket shutdown is triggered by foot-probes AND the dust has no bearing strength, (i.e. acts like a fluid) then the rockets don't get a shut-off signal and continue to fire as the lander approaches the dust.
I'll guess the lander has a fail-safe "when in doubt, hover, don't crash" routine so it should hover in place until it touches ground, that should be time enough to blow out the loose dust?
If the landing rocket shutoff is triggered by a proximity radar, then the loose dust probably reflects enough to fool the lander into thinking it's approaching solid ground, and the lander sinks into the dust.

Posted by: serpens Dec 4 2018, 09:51 PM

Regardless of all the data from orbiters there is a degree of luck involved in landing. Curiosity did a hole in one in a small crater. Imagine if she had bounced to a stop in the middle of Endurance crater's central dune field.

Posted by: djellison Dec 4 2018, 09:57 PM

That’s not how the landing works. At a certain altitude you’ll hear the EDL commentator say ‘constant velocity phase’’. At that altitude the radar starts to become unreliable and the spacecraft continues to descend at a constant velocity using the IMU. Once the three landing legs detect a touchdown the engines shut off.

The thermal inertia of this landing site precludes the sort of light fluffy dust that one might interpret as ‘quicksand’

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 4 2018, 10:00 PM

"Curiosity did a hole in one in a small crater."

Opportunity! Curiosity landed in gigantic crater.

Phil

Posted by: atomoid Dec 4 2018, 10:11 PM

QUOTE (HSchirmer @ Dec 4 2018, 12:15 PM) *
Nope, not ridiculous at all. In hindsight, just unlikely.

The Surveyor landings on the Moon were (in part) to make sure the lunar seas were really cooled lava flows that you could land on, not tens of meters of uncompacted or electrostatically levitated dust that you'd sink into.
Turns out there ARE tens of meters of lunar dust, but it's compacted and mixed with larger grains so that it can support the weight.
.......snipsnipsnip........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fall_of_Moondust immediately comes to mind

Posted by: HSchirmer Dec 5 2018, 12:18 AM

QUOTE (serpens @ Dec 4 2018, 10:51 PM) *
Regardless of all the data from orbiters there is a degree of luck involved in landing.
...
Imagine if (a rover) had bounced to a stop in the middle of Endurance crater's central dune field.


Yes, at least with a rover, you're inherently mobile and get some chance to change location;
with a lander like Viking, Phoenix or Insight, you're stuck with the place you get.

Unless, well, you do something crazy, like rethinking the lander footpads

and changing them over to passive caster wheels.

So, when you're just out of reach of that perfect rock, 'burp' the attitude control thrusters
and you've got a chance to scoot the lander over to where you want to be. You won't have much range,
but heck, fine-tuning the lander position by a meter(s?) could be really useful in an appropriate situation.
You were never going to use that left over hydrazine anyway...

Posted by: RoverDriver Dec 5 2018, 12:44 AM

QUOTE (HSchirmer @ Dec 4 2018, 12:15 PM) *
Nope, not ridiculous at all. In hindsight, just unlikely.
...


Back in 2009 when selecting the soil simulant for Spirit extrication testing, we started with plain food grade diatomaceous earth and tested the compactness with a suitable weight. I remember the first test resulted in the weight sinking completely into the simulant and disappeared from sight. We had to add quite a bit of clay to have some cohesion and avoid full full sinkage. The mix of clay and DE had to be mixed after a couple of days since it was getting compacted by Earths gravity over time. I'm not sure how InSight ground pressure compares to MER/MSL wheels.

Paolo

Posted by: MahFL Dec 5 2018, 01:18 AM

QUOTE (serpens @ Dec 4 2018, 09:51 PM) *
Regardless of all the data from orbiters there is a degree of luck involved in landing. Curiosity did a hole in one in a small crater. Imagine if she had bounced to a stop in the middle of Endurance crater's central dune field.


Always a chance of that 1 or 2 % end of mission landing...

Posted by: Explorer1 Dec 5 2018, 02:22 AM

QUOTE (HSchirmer @ Dec 4 2018, 07:18 PM) *
You were never going to use that left over hydrazine anyway...


How much hydrazine was left in InSight's tanks after landing and what happens to it? With Curiosity, the skycrane was useful for long range disposal of the unspent (very toxic!) propellant. I don't like the idea of this volatile stuff just sitting there in the tanks for years... can our resident propellant expert enlighten us a tad?

Posted by: Paolo Dec 5 2018, 05:24 AM

Propguy will surely know more about this.
my guess: after landing, the propulsion system is "safed" by venting all the helium pressurization gas and only hydrazine remains. without helium, it's no longer possible to operate the thrusters. this is how the Surveyor lunar landers operated, IIRC
just my guess. I am willing to be corrected

Posted by: propguy Dec 5 2018, 05:43 AM

QUOTE (Paolo @ Dec 4 2018, 10:24 PM) *
Propguy will surely know more about this.
my guess: after landing, the propulsion system is "safed" by venting all the helium pressurization gas and only hydrazine remains. without helium, it's no longer possible to operate the thrusters. this is how the Surveyor lunar landers operated, IIRC
just my guess. I am willing to be corrected

Great guess Paolo! After landing (about 1 minute afterwards) one final pyrovalve was fired that vented the propellant and pressurant tanks. That plan was copied from Phoenix (and I did not know till today that Surveyor did that too). Best estimate is that there is ~20 kg of remaining propellant on InSight (very close to what Phoenix had after landing too). That propellant is very unusable though in that once landed all propulsion heaters are turned off to reduce power draw on the vehicle. It is unlikely too that we would have the heater power level required to keep the tanks warm in the cold CO2 atmosphere (much higher cooling rate via convection, and the MLI would be mostly useless while landed). So the propellant is very frozen by now. The tanks were vented so if the tanks or lines go through a thaw period (above 2 C, which is possible near the equator) and rupture a line (the hydrazine contracts when frozen but will expand when melting and that could rupture the lines) the resulting liquid will ooze out due to no driving pressure (vs. a spray if we had not vented). No worry about hydrazine toxicity (no life, plus there is some debate about the carcinogenic classification of hydrazine), but it is very corrosive too and is a great solvent for polyamids including Kapton. Thus it can severely damage wiring and heaters, so we do not want a spray. We have always joked to the program that if they did not freeze the prop we could take off again and find a better landing site. Of course that is not an option (all guidance hardware and essentially anything not directly related to landed ops was also powered off at landing).

Posted by: Ant103 Dec 5 2018, 12:31 PM

About making a flatfield image of the ICC, how about using the arm, putting it very close to the lens so it appears out of focus, and cover the whole field of view. Then, taking pictures, we will having a kinda homogeneous foreground, and we could make a flatfield.

I don't know if it's possible, just an idea though.

Posted by: fredk Dec 5 2018, 02:44 PM

It's really hard to flatfield fisheyes. I doubt you could get the arm nearly close enough to the lens - the fov is so crazy wide that the image wouldn't be homogeneous.

Posted by: HSchirmer Dec 5 2018, 03:23 PM

QUOTE (propguy @ Dec 5 2018, 06:43 AM) *
...
We have always joked to the program that if they did not freeze the prop we could take off again and find a better landing site. Of course that is not an option (all guidance hardware and essentially anything not directly related to landed ops was also powered off at landing).



Guess the next generation mars lander software might include "hover and hazard avoidance"?

Now that we've used ancillary craft, the cube sats tagging along and relaying data,
I wonder about ancillary sensors deployed during descent?
Adapt "smart skeet" https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-108.htm to identify potential science targets and then fire a round of science probes.


~25 kg for IR/laser targeted probes to pick the top 4 targets over ~12,000 square meters.

Posted by: hendric Dec 5 2018, 04:01 PM

I recall seeing a NASA Announcement of Opportunity several years ago for investigating turning the weights jettisoned during the landing sequence into full-fledged probes (For missions that needs an offset center of mass for lift). Can't seem to find it now though. Anyone else have better luck?

Posted by: stevesliva Dec 5 2018, 04:17 PM

Takeoff? Crazy. On the other hand, venting the pressurant across the dusty camera lens... Or solar panels...

Posted by: HSchirmer Dec 5 2018, 05:43 PM

QUOTE (hendric @ Dec 5 2018, 05:01 PM) *
I recall seeing a NASA Announcement of Opportunity several years ago for investigating turning the weights jettisoned during the landing sequence into full-fledged probes (For missions that needs an offset center of mass for lift). Can't seem to find it now though. Anyone else have better luck?


Interesting, I would have thought they'd go with flechettes ... available as ... (3,700 nonexplosive penetrator rods... 350 14-in. rods, 1,000 7-in. rods, and 2,400 2-in. rods) standard load weight is 420 kg so, so 370 random "kinetic drill" targets require about 42 kg. That's a lot of energetically "free" drilling. My theory is, why waste the kinetic energy inherent in orbital bombardment? Instead of a rover-mounted drill, drop enough "thor rods" and you've got hundreds of kinetic drills within the landing ellipse. Then the rover only needs to brush the dust of recently broken rock fragments.

FYI, as of 2019, a "Hard Target Sensing Fuze" should be operable. It sounds promising; designed, not only survive a 15,000 PSI impact from punching through "X meters" of rock or reinforced concrete but actually measure density as it goes, in order to determine how many floors of the underground bunker it has passed through before triggering.

Yep, sounds like something a planetary geologist might want to tinker with.

So, for a kinetic strike probe, you'd need
-one tungsten "thor rod" with sensors and smart fuze at the back end,
- one solar powered data station deployed on a parachute, and
- one army surplus spool of 3,000 meters of TOW missile control wire connecting them for data gathering

Posted by: nprev Dec 5 2018, 07:23 PM

ADMIN NOTE: Although this is indeed a very slow-paced mission compared to previous Mars efforts, let's please not diverge excessively into what-if design speculation. I'd also add that some members here are doubtless subject to the provisions of International Trafficking in Arms Regulations (ITAR) as part of their day jobs, so we really aren't going to encourage discussion on matters that may cross lines.

InSight is on Mars, where it is. Not gonna go anywhere else. That is the topic of this thread.

Posted by: HSchirmer Dec 5 2018, 07:58 PM

Ah, well,
is the seismometer active as it sits on the lander deck, or does it only wake up when deployed?

Curious because recent articles discuss the possibility of strong meteor showers at Earth this December;
(either Monocerids or Phoenicids).

That got me thinking, what meteor streams is Mars expected to encounter during the next several months?
Can it get usable data while the seismometer is stowed on the deck, only after deployed?

Posted by: hendric Dec 5 2018, 08:36 PM

This article has great info on meteor streams at Mars and Venus.

https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/402/4/2759/1748682#25879660


Posted by: JRehling Dec 5 2018, 09:38 PM

I would not expect meteor showers to cause impacts on Mars. A typical altitude for meteors on Earth is 80 km and the pressure at that altitude is also attained far above the surface of Mars. Meteor shower impactors are normally quite small.

There will be macroscopic impactors hitting Mars regularly, but not necessarily correlated with meteor showers.

It might be interesting to see if impacts are noticeably more common when the high altitude regions on Mars (e.g., Tharsis) are oriented in the direction of Mars' orbital motion.

Posted by: paraisosdelsistemasolar Dec 6 2018, 08:25 AM

We have new images from the SEIS instrument tweeted by the president of CNES: https://twitter.com/JY_LeGall/status/1070561717367779328


Posted by: climber Dec 6 2018, 12:06 PM

Yes...but those images are not yet on the raw image page. What’s wrong here ?

Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 6 2018, 12:11 PM

QUOTE (climber @ Dec 6 2018, 08:06 PM) *
Yes...but those images are not yet on the raw image page. What’s wrong here ?

Probably a fault on the public server... Hopefully they'll fix it soon smile.gif

Posted by: Liss Dec 6 2018, 12:24 PM

QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Nov 30 2018, 03:47 AM) *
Does anyone know if they have an official mission clock for InSight? Similar to the one we have for Curiosity https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/mission/whereistherovernow/ that shows the sol and current solar time.

There's another question: is it correct that the nine-digit number in the image filenames is the time in seconds from 2000-Jan-01 12:00 UTC?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 6 2018, 06:56 PM

A new bit of the horizon in one of the new images:



It's to the left of the first IDC image we saw. Boulders are visible on the horizon, so it is not far away, in contrast to the more distant horizons in the ICC and first IDC images.

There is supposed to be a new HiRISE attempt on the site today.

Phil

Posted by: mcaplinger Dec 6 2018, 08:04 PM

QUOTE (Liss @ Dec 6 2018, 04:24 AM) *
is it correct that the nine-digit number in the image filenames is the time in seconds from 2000-Jan-01 12:00 UTC?

Nominally, but the clock isn't perfect and drifts a small amount. See https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/pub/naif/INSIGHT/kernels/sclk/NSY_SCLKSCET.00009.tsc

And I don't know what the relationship between the time and the actual exposure time is for InSight. It takes tens of seconds to read the image out, though, so it might be off by that much at least.

Posted by: Explorer1 Dec 6 2018, 08:08 PM

12 new images on the raws page, showing lots of arm and scoop movements (as well as some pretty clear streaks in the soil from the thrusters!)

Posted by: atomoid Dec 6 2018, 09:15 PM

Stereo attempt from images https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/38/?site=insight and https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/39/?site=insight showing the deck, challenging parallax between near/far, so the lander deck is optimized for crosseye/anaglyph.


Posted by: neo56 Dec 6 2018, 09:35 PM

Nice one atomoid!
Here is a rough stitching of 3 IDC pictures received today:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thomasappere/31269252937/sizes/o/

Posted by: atomoid Dec 6 2018, 09:54 PM

very nice stitch, you get a sense how deep the thrusters scoured away of what seem to be at least a cm or more of dust. Here's another stereo, this of img 31 and 32 try to get a feel of the local topography (flat!), IDC was apparently rotated 180 degrees into upside down position when it snapped these! optimized for the ground 2/3 up frame.


Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 6 2018, 10:34 PM

Very nice work with the images! I really like that mosaic.

Taking a different approach, here I am building a mosaic of the surface with minimal blocking by spacecraft components, by overlaying images and replacing sections of one image with another which is not hidden by part of the lander. The goal is a full mosaic of the workspace. It will be distorted at first, but later it can be morphed to fit proper control.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 6 2018, 11:05 PM

From the new press release:

"These images will help mission team members determine where to set InSight's seismometer and heat flow probe — the only instruments ever to be robotically placed on the surface of another planet."


Ok, planet... yes, OK. But on the Moon, Surveyor 7 used its arm to pick up its Alpha [Particle] Spectrometer Instrument and place it in several different positions. Surveyors 5, 6 and 7 had ASI instruments, forerunners of the modern APXS used on our Mars rovers and on Chang'e 3. They were just dropped from a bracket on the lander to the surface. But S7 used its arm to reposition it 3 times.

Phil


Posted by: RoverDriver Dec 6 2018, 11:27 PM

QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Dec 6 2018, 12:04 PM) *
Nominally, but the clock isn't perfect and drifts a small amount. See https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/pub/naif/INSIGHT/kernels/sclk/NSY_SCLKSCET.00009.tsc

And I don't know what the relationship between the time and the actual exposure time is for InSight. It takes tens of seconds to read the image out, though, so it might be off by that much at least.


Aside from clock drift, I think the filename reflects the timestamp when the data product is created, not necessarily the time of capture or readout.

Paolo

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 7 2018, 02:37 AM

My previous mosaic can be fitted with the foreground of the ICC image (using the latest low-sun version). As much as possible of that area will be replaced with IDC images as they become available. Again - distorions abound but will be corrected later.

Phil


Posted by: MahFL Dec 7 2018, 03:22 AM

"The mission's primary mission is scheduled for two Earth years, or one Mars year — plenty of time to gather data from the Red Planet's surface."


er, subsurface... cool.gif


https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8396/nasas-mars-insight-flexes-its-arm/?site=insight


Posted by: MahFL Dec 7 2018, 03:52 AM

A bunch more pics came down.

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 7 2018, 07:59 AM

Using these images is going to be tricky - but not beyond our panorama experts, I'm sure. This is a preliminary attempt to work with what we have, and using bits of one image to mask out parts of the arm in another image. Very rough but I'm sure we will see better soon.

Phil


Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 7 2018, 08:09 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 7 2018, 03:59 PM) *
Very rough but I'm sure we will see better soon.

Looking good, better than my effort Phil smile.gif

Posted by: Adam Hurcewicz Dec 7 2018, 10:03 AM

Here is my version of InSight panorama smile.gif


Posted by: kenny Dec 7 2018, 10:08 AM

A lovely panorama, Phil, and gives us the first wider view of the location.
If we are indeed in one of the sand-filled crater hollows, as has been speculated, it looks like we are on the edge of it.

Posted by: jamescanvin Dec 7 2018, 12:12 PM

My version of the sol 10 panorama.

https://flic.kr/p/2aDmh5Nhttps://flic.kr/p/2aDmh5N by https://www.flickr.com/photos/54014304@N08/, on Flickr

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 7 2018, 05:59 PM

Excellent work from everyone! I added the last image and made a circular version. North roughly at the top, as for all my circular projections.

Phil



Posted by: atomoid Dec 7 2018, 08:33 PM

great image https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/85/?site=insight plus another set of images https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/84/?site=insight & https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/89/?site=insight suitable for stereo. There seem to be some noticeable differences on a specific region of the solar array (rigth next to the glint, which seems larger in one image due to gain), it looks perhaps due to a patch of dust getting blown around, though i see nothing comparable on the deck, maybe just specular differences due to perspective, or perhaps even re-reflections of light reflected off the arm itself?


Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 7 2018, 09:18 PM

The position of the arm (and consequently the camera) has moved between the two images. Whatever the solar panels are reflecting (the sky I guess), we're seeing it at a different angle. If we assume the solar panels aren't a perfectly flat reflective surface, that seems to me a sufficient explanation. Sort of like looking at the reflection of a kitchen light in a crumpled plastic bag.

Posted by: climber Dec 7 2018, 09:53 PM

Mars’ « wind »: https://spacegate.cnes.fr/fr/insight-historique-seis-enregistre-le-bruit-du-vent-sur-mars

Posted by: elakdawalla Dec 8 2018, 12:17 AM

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=8436

Phil, I moved your post there. Once we get a good view of the workspace and you start mapping out activities, you might create a workspace thread that's akin to a route map thread.

Posted by: HSchirmer Dec 8 2018, 12:34 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 7 2018, 06:59 PM) *
Excellent work from everyone! I added the last image and made a circular version. North roughly at the top, as for all my circular projections.

Phil



Is there a particular spherical viewer and settings you use with this format?

Or is this an "eyes are used to this" thing, like reflexively seeing 3d from cross-eyed stereo?

Posted by: propguy Dec 8 2018, 05:46 AM

QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Dec 7 2018, 05:12 AM) *
My version of the sol 10 panorama.

https://flic.kr/p/2aDmh5Nhttps://flic.kr/p/2aDmh5N by https://www.flickr.com/photos/54014304@N08/, on Flickr

Wonderful panorama from just a few photos. Saw a few images today (not sure why there seems to be a periodic delay on the raw image website, so days it is right in time with the download, some days it is delayed) that show the 3rd footpad and my cruise thrusters. The thruster closeout bracket (that was exposed to the entry flow and heating) is very discolored. Being a Titanium plate this took some high heating rates and the partial blue color must mean there was some free O in the upper atmosphere. If this does in fact present startling science (i doubt it since there should be free O in the upper atmosphere) then I respectfully rescind this conclusion I made since I am not at all a planetary scientist (just a humble engineer).

P.S. back before entry I had asked folks if they had any good idea for an EDL song. I received lots of great responses, but luckily that morning driving into work KBCO in Boulder played Under Pressure by David Bowie and Queen. Being one of may favorite songs I quickly decided that is the EDL song for InSight. Most of the team at work agreed (we were under pressure that day and once it hit the atmosphere InSight itself was under atmospheric pressure). Heard the song again today and it brought me right back to that day.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 8 2018, 07:25 AM

"Is there a particular spherical viewer and settings you use with this format?

Or is this an "eyes are used to this" thing, like reflexively seeing 3d from cross-eyed stereo? "

Sorry, HSchirmer, I am not sure what you mean. These circular projections I make are basically the same as standard polar projections except that I vary the radial scale a bit (making them more like a stereographic projection, rather than an orthographic). It's an ad hoc process but it gives an effect I find useful.

Phil


Posted by: HSchirmer Dec 8 2018, 01:09 PM

QUOTE (HSchirmer)
Is there a particular spherical viewer and settings you use with this format?
Or is this an "eyes are used to this" thing, like reflexively seeing 3d from cross-eyed stereo?



QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 8 2018, 08:25 AM) *
I am not sure what you mean. These circular projections


Are you viewing your circular projection .jpgs as a "flat" image like we see below,

or are you using a panorama viewer that maps them onto a sphere, like Google Streetview, GoPro360, PhotoSphere?

I am curious because your polar images seem to be similar to many panaramas

but they are distorted when viewed with the panorama viewers I've tried.

Posted by: Ant103 Dec 8 2018, 01:59 PM

Very good work everyone on the last batch of IDC images smile.gif Really !

Here's my try :

http://www.db-prods.net/marsroversimages/InSight/2018/Sol10_pano.jpg

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 8 2018, 03:03 PM

Is this a very delicate impression of the high cirrus clouds in this picture?
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0008/idc/D000M0008_597248675EDR_F0000_0550M_.PNG



 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 8 2018, 05:21 PM

HSchirmer - I only view them flat. The intention is to go from a panorama view to something approaching a flat map centred on the lander.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 8 2018, 07:25 PM

This is the same panorama data projected to show distant features better, and with a few annotations.

Phil


Posted by: Ant103 Dec 8 2018, 07:34 PM

I managed to make a postcard from the last panorama. It's always a bonus with some sky smile.gif

http://www.db-prods.net/blog/2018/12/08/insight-premiere-carte-postale/

Posted by: serpens Dec 8 2018, 10:41 PM

Phil's annotated [projection certainly provides a good indication of the extent of dust removal by the thrusters.

Posted by: Paolo Dec 9 2018, 09:16 AM

raw images for Sol 12 are up!

Posted by: jamescanvin Dec 9 2018, 01:25 PM

Some images down from sol 12.

Here is a 29 frame mosaic of the ground right next to the lander.

https://flic.kr/p/RjvJV9https://flic.kr/p/RjvJV9 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/54014304@N08/, on Flickr

Posted by: nprev Dec 9 2018, 07:09 PM

To my untrained eye that area looks as close to perfect for instrument placement as anyone could ever possibly hope for. smile.gif

Terrific mosaic, James!

Posted by: neo56 Dec 10 2018, 12:14 PM

A small rock (center of image) seems to have been moved by retrorockets during landing and it left a track behind it.
But another rock on top right corner has not moved... Too heavy? Too far from rockets?
I enhanced the contrast of the photo.


Posted by: HSchirmer Dec 10 2018, 01:55 PM

QUOTE (neo56 @ Dec 10 2018, 12:14 PM) *
A small rock (center of image) seems to have been moved by retrorockets during landing and it left a track behind it.
But another rock on top right corner has not moved... Too heavy? Too far from rockets?
I enhanced the contrast of the photo.



Probably a bit of both. I'd noticed that little "Beckham rock" with the bend in the path previously,
figured the path was a result of pressure falling off very quickly with distance from the plumes.
The simulations predict some "pressure ripples" outside the blue low-pressure tough, so we might see some rough-grain fine-grain patterns in the soil.




Does the insight team have a naming "theme" yet?

Posted by: RoverDriver Dec 10 2018, 04:30 PM

QUOTE (neo56 @ Dec 10 2018, 04:14 AM) *
A small rock (center of image) seems to have been moved by retrorockets during landing and it left a track behind it.
But another rock on top right corner has not moved... Too heavy? Too far from rockets?
...


The (cosine of the) angle between the thrust vector and surface normal also plays a big role. That can make quite a difference.

Paolo

Posted by: djellison Dec 10 2018, 06:23 PM

I had a quick go at generating a workspace model. It's incredibly flat. Pretty much the dream scenario for instrument deployment.

https://sketchfab.com/models/be1b893b28814bc289c35368b9508943




 

Posted by: Fran Ontanaya Dec 10 2018, 07:42 PM

Just a regular speed http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4927&view=findpost&p=108306.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 11 2018, 12:20 AM

Propguy:

"Saw a few images today ... that show the 3rd footpad and my cruise thrusters."

Do we know which sol these were taken? I'm eager to see them.

Phil

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 11 2018, 12:46 AM

Is this not it from Sol 12?

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0012/idc/D010L0012_597602525EDR_F0101_0060M_.PNG



 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 11 2018, 12:54 AM

I took that to be the second footpad. And no thrusters, or am I missing them?

Phil

Posted by: mcaplinger Dec 11 2018, 01:04 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 10 2018, 04:54 PM) *
And no thrusters, or am I missing them?

I think the cruise thrusters are there on the left side.

Posted by: PDP8E Dec 11 2018, 01:17 AM

I am intrigued by this land feature.
It looks like a rock(s) was pushed down an incline (by a dust devil maybe?) ??
Any ideas? This 'smooth slide' is something I've never seen...
(BTW...That distant hill is on the horizon right above it)




Posted by: charborob Dec 11 2018, 02:51 AM

I am not convinced that it is a "slide". Could be just the way the rocks are placed that makes it look like it. Not enough resolution to be sure.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 11 2018, 02:56 AM

"I think the cruise thrusters are there on the left side."

Makes total sense now. I had been interpreting Propguy's comment as meaning there was an image looking under the lander, back to the other footpad and revealing the landing thrusters. Just call me too impatient!

Phil

Posted by: John Moore Dec 11 2018, 04:53 AM

Is it possible to determine terrain detail from reflections in the instrument images posed (might add to the location controversy)?

Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 11 2018, 09:33 AM

some lovely sol 14 images down https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight

including this which shows a rather pointy rock close to one of the pads


Posted by: jamescanvin Dec 11 2018, 02:00 PM

Love this one of two of the decent rockets, a landing leg, the ICC camera and the disturbed ground under the lander.

 

Posted by: jamescanvin Dec 11 2018, 02:03 PM

As it is past 1am here in Melbourne here is just a quick go at one of the horizon panoramas taken on sol 14.

https://flic.kr/p/PJWnkMhttps://flic.kr/p/PJWnkM by https://www.flickr.com/photos/54014304@N08/, on Flickr

Posted by: propguy Dec 11 2018, 02:46 PM

QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Dec 11 2018, 07:00 AM) *
Love this one of two of the decent rockets, a landing leg, the ICC camera and the disturbed ground under the lander.

That is the type of photo I have been hoping for! Looks great. Regarding the earlier quote of mine about thrusters and the 3rd leg, those images are all down. I was referring to the cruise thrusters, not the descent ones. Looks like we excavated quite a hole between the descent thruster clusters (there are more thrusters on the backside to the right you can't see in this image).

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 11 2018, 08:58 PM

This is James's sol 14 panorama in circular form. I don't know exactly how much is missing, and small horizon offsets are exaggerated in my projection.

We landed in the best place in that whole scene.

Phil


Posted by: Ant103 Dec 11 2018, 10:43 PM

My version of this panoramic smile.gif

http://www.db-prods.net/marsroversimages/InSight/2018/Sol14_pano.jpg

Posted by: atomoid Dec 11 2018, 10:56 PM

very nice panoramas shaping up!
continuing attempts to wring islands of stereo imagery out of the latest sol14 https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/896/?site=insight and https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/895/?site=insight


Posted by: antipode Dec 12 2018, 02:01 AM

Nice panos!

Its clearly not a parking lot. Lots of undulating ground at all scales.

At some azimuths I get the impression I can see for many kilometers.

Lines of small dunes/drifts in the middle distance. Big rocks.

What looks like a couple of crater rims on the horizon, and at least once very distant hill.

Phil, have you managed to refine the location at all based on the sol 14 imagery?

Another Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 12 2018, 02:34 AM

No, not yet, but I'm looking. Meanwhile:

https://twitter.com/ExoMars_CaSSIS/status/1072638302845657094

HiRISE has it! We should see it soon.

Phil

Posted by: propguy Dec 12 2018, 04:16 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 11 2018, 07:34 PM) *
No, not yet, but I'm looking. Meanwhile:

https://twitter.com/ExoMars_CaSSIS/status/1072638302845657094

HiRISE has it! We should see it soon.

Phil

Yes, HIRISE is supposed to release an image later this week. I have seen an image that shows the lander, heatshield, and backshell/parachute location. Have not seen the actual HIRISE image but instead a pre-landing one with dots on the spots where those are located. Can't wait to see the actual image. Sorry not allowed to distribute the photo I was shown.

Posted by: monty python Dec 12 2018, 07:22 AM

Just a new thought here. Most of us have heard the "sound" of winds moving around insights solar panels audio recorded by the seismometer I think.

Could these vibrations transfer to the ground and hinder the supper sensitive seismometers work?

Posted by: MahFL Dec 12 2018, 07:42 AM

QUOTE (monty python @ Dec 12 2018, 08:22 AM) *
Just a new thought here. Most of us have heard the "sound" of winds moving around insights solar panels audio recorded by the seismometer I think.

Could these vibrations transfer to the ground and hinder the supper sensitive seismometers work?


They said it was unlikely, that's why they want it on the ground, also they would be able to characterise the noise of the vehicle and be able to ignore or recognise it during the long silent listening phase, if it did indeed transfer.

Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 12 2018, 09:22 AM

Is the InSight image file naming convention publicly available? If so, does anyone here have a link to it

TIA smile.gif

Posted by: Lewis007 Dec 12 2018, 12:19 PM

QUOTE (Ant103 @ Nov 29 2018, 11:04 AM) *
What happened to the "raw" images page ?

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/

There is none.


I have a different issue: the raw images page does not work in my browser (Basilisk). I have to use Chrome to get the images.
I wrote NASA to inform them of this issue, but no response yet.
By the way: the feedback link on the InSight webpage did not work either (in Chrome); so I used the general NASA Mars page for my feedback.

It seems the InSight page was developed in a hurry: I never had this mess before (except perhaps with the revamped Cassini webpage a few years ago, but I got a speedy reply, and the issue was solved quickly).

Posted by: Paolo Dec 12 2018, 12:51 PM

to me, the site seems to be very slow at times. I think it does not load thumbnails, but it needs to load the full resolution images when you open it

Posted by: fredk Dec 12 2018, 03:07 PM

Agreed, thumbnails would be better. And a way to view a list of sols without having to manually enter the sol values would be nice. It would be great if someone could create their own site, akin to those people here have for MER and MSL. But unfortunately that would mean having to code up a harvester from scratch.

Posted by: paraisosdelsistemasolar Dec 12 2018, 03:42 PM

QUOTE (fredk @ Dec 12 2018, 04:07 PM) *
Agreed, thumbnails would be better. And a way to view a list of sols without having to manually enter the sol values would be nice. It would be great if someone could create their own site, akin to those people here have for MER and MSL. But unfortunately that would mean having to code up a harvester from scratch.


I'm trying to write a "harvester", but I'm afraid I won't be able to finish after New Year sad.gif

Posted by: nprev Dec 12 2018, 04:49 PM

QUOTE (MahFL @ Dec 12 2018, 12:42 AM) *
They said it was unlikely, that's why they want it on the ground, also they would be able to characterise the noise of the vehicle and be able to ignore or recognise it during the long silent listening phase, if it did indeed transfer.


Also remember that the seismometer will have a 'hat' installed over it, and minimizing wind vibration is one of the reasons for that.

Posted by: jhagen Dec 12 2018, 07:30 PM

Here's an anaglyph from the sol 14 frames. I inverted the view for visual comfort.
I only intended to post the top image. The bottom image has some bad shadow artifacts.



 

Posted by: propguy Dec 12 2018, 11:43 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 12 2018, 09:49 AM) *
Also remember that the seismometer will have a 'hat' installed over it, and minimizing wind vibration is one of the reasons for that.

Yes, wind induced noise is a very big concern for SEIS and has been accounted for in the design. As mentioned there is the 'hat' (known as the WTS or Wind and Temperature Shield) plus the instrument cable tether box (that round thing that shows in the upper left of the ICC images) is very complicated in an effort to ensure the lander does not load the instrument as the vehicle moves in the wind. The cable attachment to the instrument even has a flex plate that will drop off to again limit motion to the instrument even if the cable were to move. There is a very good description of the instruments at: http://spaceflight101.com/insight/insight-instruments/.

Posted by: nprev Dec 12 2018, 11:56 PM

Thanks, Propguy. smile.gif

Quick question re the WTS: How much is it expected to reduce the amount of temperature variation? I can't imagine that the instrument itself will produce much in the way of stray heat, though maybe it doesn't take much to make a significant (and calibrate-able) difference in terms of performance.

Posted by: abalone Dec 13 2018, 01:10 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 13 2018, 10:56 AM) *
Thanks, Propguy. smile.gif

Quick question re the WTS: How much is it expected to reduce the amount of temperature variation?

I imagine that the soil covered by the WTS will provide some extra heat capacity that will stabilize the temp variation somewhat more than the air temperature

Posted by: nprev Dec 13 2018, 01:55 AM

Right, and the anchors on the seismometer will also stab down into the soil a bit to provide better surface bonding for signal detection, which will also help with temperature stabilization.

I suspect that the W is the primary purpose of WTS, not the T. smile.gif

Posted by: djellison Dec 13 2018, 02:02 AM

This pdf -https://ttu-ir.tdl.org/ttu-ir/bitstream/handle/2346/59518/ICES-2014-64.pdf


Charts - especially on pages 14 and 15 - show the WTS, combined with a small heater on SEIS itself - makes quite a dramatic different to the temperature swings experiences by SEIS.

Posted by: djellison Dec 13 2018, 02:25 AM

I've done a V2 of my workspace model, complete with WebVR scaling - https://sketchfab.com/models/038d4924308f4c9fb00fe492b1450997 - I think it's to approx the right scale - I used the width of the blue margin in this image - https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA22874 - as a guide ( as the blue margin represents the radius of the SEIS WTS I believe )

As a result - take these with a pinch of salt - but an orthoimage and a dem with a 50cm grid overlay, attached.






 

Posted by: nprev Dec 13 2018, 02:57 AM

Thanks for that thermal paper, Doug. Dramatic improvement indeed, and I was unaware of the heater. Count me as a WTS fan, emphasis on the T! smile.gif


Re your DEM: The scale is cm for the elevation contours, right? Regardless, hard to ask for a flatter place than that.

Posted by: djellison Dec 13 2018, 05:47 AM

The DEM scale is M, so about 15cm across the entire thing. Incredibly flat.

Posted by: neo56 Dec 13 2018, 12:06 PM

Here is my take on the sol 14 panorama of the landing site. I prepare a version with a filled sky.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thomasappere/31359857727/sizes/o/

Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 13 2018, 12:21 PM

Sol 16 IDC & ICC images have been downlinked to the server, so far 50 are posted
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight&begin_sol=16&end_sol=16

Posted by: PDP8E Dec 13 2018, 05:21 PM

HiRise just tweeted out a sly riddle...

https://twitter.com/hirise?lang=en



Posted by: paraisosdelsistemasolar Dec 13 2018, 05:36 PM

It's official, HiRISE image of the InSight hardware: https://www.uahirise.org/releases/insight/hardware/

Posted by: fredk Dec 13 2018, 05:38 PM

The orbital view shows blast effects out to roughly 20 metres or so from Insight. So Phil's circular post showing us at a "bull's eye" location is probably just due to the engines - there's nothing too unusual about the location.

Posted by: Paolo Dec 15 2018, 01:30 PM

raw images for Sol 18 are up. they seem to indicate that seismometer deployment is imminent

Posted by: wildespace Dec 15 2018, 03:52 PM

If I oriented myself correctly, I think I identified a few major boulders and craters visible in the sol14 panorama with what I see in the HiRISE images. blink.gif

(using Phil Stooke's image for inlay)



The low "ridge" is also visible behind the "A" boulder.

Posted by: fredk Dec 15 2018, 05:03 PM

Sol 18 stereo views. Cross-eyed:



And anaglyphs:


There are uncorrected distortions here, so these may cause eyestrain...

Posted by: climber Dec 15 2018, 05:33 PM

This tweeter feed from &MoonNext show how they’ve reproduced InSight’s work place a-t-il JPL
Edit : be uploaded 4 Times and can’t see it on my post to delete, sorry


Fixed, and thanks! smile.gif - Admin

 

Posted by: MahFL Dec 16 2018, 04:47 AM

New pics down, lowering grapple to the seismometer, my question is are they ready to deploy it ?


Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 16 2018, 06:14 AM

QUOTE (MahFL @ Dec 16 2018, 12:47 PM) *
New pics down, lowering grapple to the seismometer, my question is are they ready to deploy it ?

Looks like they are ready... Judging by this Tweet from SEIS: https://twitter.com/InSight_IPGP/status/1074153736757403648

Translation: "The grapple that will lead me to the surface of Mars has just positioned itself above me! The week ahead is going to be historic, I would say, SEIShistorique!"

Posted by: MahFL Dec 16 2018, 06:26 AM

Awesome.

Posted by: nprev Dec 16 2018, 07:01 AM

If I'm not mistaken this is well ahead of the planned schedule, is it not? Wonder if they expected the site survey to take much longer than it apparently did.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 16 2018, 07:53 AM

Before landing there was a possibility that the site would need a bit of grooming, moving a few pebbles aside or something like that. So some time gets saved there. Even so this current operation might only be checking the positioning of the arm above the instrument rather than the actual pick-up. But maybe this is it! I had wondered if there might be a few bearing tests etc. - pressing the arm down on the surface to estimate its properties. But maybe that's not needed.

Phil

Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 16 2018, 08:07 AM

We also had a Tweet from Jean-Yves Le Gall @JY_LeGall (CNES / ESA) https://twitter.com/JY_LeGall/status/1074140936756781057
"Mars. The SEIS's deployment operations will begin. InSight's arm positioned its pliers over SEIS..." (roughly translated from French)

Posted by: Paolo Dec 16 2018, 08:26 AM

I recall seeing a tweet some days ago implying that the seismometer would be deployed during next week, but I don't seem to be able to find it

Posted by: climber Dec 16 2018, 02:24 PM

Yep, me too.
Good traduction from french actually laugh.gif

Posted by: MarkL Dec 16 2018, 02:36 PM

Any idea how the raw images are being named?

eg:
D000M0018_598143893EDR_F0000_0532M_

So, the little I know is,

D is Deployment Camera C is Context Camera
000 ? Not sure - range is D000 to D058
M0018_ ? Not sure - This can also be L0018 or R0018 I assume Left/Right but what is M?
598143893 is seconds after Jan 1/2000 - December 14, 2018 at 11:04 p.m.
EDR? (All images have EDR)
F0000_ ? Filter?
0532M_ ?

Thanks!
Mark


Posted by: Ant103 Dec 16 2018, 02:47 PM

I assume M is for Mono, like the picture is not coming from stereopair. So it's single.

About the filename, do you have a way to convert seconds from Jan 1st 2000 and get a GMT formated time ?

Posted by: MarkL Dec 16 2018, 02:50 PM

QUOTE (Ant103 @ Dec 16 2018, 03:47 PM) *
I assume M is for Mono, like the picture is not coming from stereopair. So it's single.

About the filename, do you have a way to convert seconds from Jan 1st 2000 and get a GMT formated time ?


I just added that many seconds to Jan 1/2000 in Excel and it worked. I think it must be GMT already.

Posted by: fredk Dec 16 2018, 04:19 PM

About the timestamp see http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=8432&st=195&p=242432&#entry242432

The "0018" etc is clearly the sol number.

Posted by: RoverDriver Dec 16 2018, 07:18 PM

QUOTE (MarkL @ Dec 16 2018, 06:36 AM) *
...
EDR? (All images have EDR)
F0000_ ? Filter?
0532M_ ?
...


EDR stands for Engineering Data Record, the image as it was captured, without rectification (that would be named RDR, Reduced Data Record).

F000_0532 looks like a sequence name? Doug would definitely know.

Paolo

Posted by: mcaplinger Dec 16 2018, 08:50 PM

QUOTE (MarkL @ Dec 16 2018, 06:36 AM) *
598143893 is seconds after Jan 1/2000 - December 14, 2018 at 11:04 p.m.

Based on the most recent clock drift file, that time maps to 2018 DEC 15 11:05:20 assuming it's really a raw SCLK value. 0 SCLK is nominally 2000-001T12:00.

CODE
from spice import *
furnsh("naif0012.tls")
furnsh("NSY_SCLKSCET.00010.tsc")
t0=scs2e(-189,"598143893")
print "t0", t0, et2utc(t0, "c", 0)

Posted by: MarkL Dec 17 2018, 03:02 AM

Thank you guys. Very helpful.

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