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Posted by: mars loon Aug 24 2006, 08:24 PM

Dear Friends,

Today I am extremely dissapointed that the Pluto Demoters have triumphed.

I respect their opinion, but disagree with it.

I strongly agree with Alan Stern's statement calling it "absurd" that only 424 astronomers were allowed to vote, out of some 10,000 professional astronomers around the globe.

This tiny group is clearly not at all representative by mathematics alone.

I believe we should formulate a plan to overturn this unjust decision and return Pluto to full planetary status, and as the first member of a third catagory of planets, Xena being number two. Thus a total of 10 Planets in our Solar System

Please respond if you agree that Pluto should be restored as a planet.

ken

Ken Kremer
Amateur Astronomers Association of Princeton
Program Chairman

Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Aug 24 2006, 08:37 PM

I'm in.

Posted by: volcanopele Aug 24 2006, 08:48 PM

So am I.

Posted by: JRehling Aug 24 2006, 08:49 PM

You might want to carefully consider what, if any, counterproposal you make axiomatic to your movement. You might find that a majority support Pluto's planethood, but split with you on other subissues. Or, maybe you have already carefully considered the politics of it. Cheers, in any case.

Posted by: David Aug 24 2006, 09:00 PM

I noted that in Jason's poll, a plurality of UMSFers voted for a proposal basically identical to the one that passed. However, a number greater than that plurality voted for a more expansive definition (more than 9 planets), but their numbers were split among several proposals. Which demonstrates your point, I think.

Posted by: DonPMitchell Aug 24 2006, 09:05 PM

I agree, this is an arbitrary ruling by a small subset of astronomers. And who even says that astronomers alone get to decide? How many people involved in space research today have a degree in astronomy?

JRehling makes an important point. Any petition to reverse the ruling is likely to become fragmented by people promoting various different defintions of "planet".

Posted by: Jyril Aug 24 2006, 09:10 PM

If you don't like Pluto's demotion, consider dwarf planets as a subgroup of the "true" planets (i.e. reversion of the Resolution 5B). Problem fixed.

Besides, only time will tell if people will adopt this definition.

Posted by: Planet X Aug 24 2006, 09:19 PM

At any rate, I'm in! What if it turns out Pluto and UB313 are the only TNOs over 2000 km in diameter out to several hundred AU? I also agree a new planet class should be created, perhaps one that covers bodies in the 2000-6000 km diameter range. Call it Sub-Terrestrial Planet? Then have bodies smaller than 2000 km called "dwarf planets?" Later!

J P

Posted by: David Aug 24 2006, 09:44 PM

The obvious way around that is to focus on the results and not the reasoning.

Posted by: mars loon Aug 24 2006, 10:18 PM

Exactly. My proposal clearly is for a cut-off at 2000 km, 10 Planets known at this time. Thats reasonable and avoids the 43+ planet scenario which Mike Brown correctly points out.

Thanks for the response so far. Looking forward to more.

ken

Posted by: tedstryk Aug 24 2006, 10:20 PM

This could really get messy if they find a Pluto-type world the size of Mercury or larger. Also, the fact that the differences between Mercury and Pluto, for example, generate a distinction, but not the differences between Mercury and Jupiter - this is disturbing.

Posted by: Alan Stern Aug 24 2006, 10:32 PM

Poll at chicagotribune.com...

Do you agree with the International Astronomical Union's decision to strip Pluto of its planetary status?

33.6%
Yes (1559 responses)

66.4%
No (3076 responses)

4635 total responses




CNN -

Were scientists correct in downgrading Pluto's status?

Yes - 26170
No - 43737

Posted by: Jyril Aug 24 2006, 10:58 PM

Not necessarily. There may be many Pluto-sized objects waiting for discovery.

Posted by: Jyril Aug 24 2006, 11:03 PM

I wonder what the result would have been if the question was "Would you like that Solar system has 50 planets?"

Of course a layman (and many scientists) doesn't want to demote Pluto. It's a purely sentimental issue to him.

Now the work lies making people realize that the "dwarf planets", including the giants in the asteroid belt, are interesting worlds of their own right. Not to forget major satellites.

Posted by: mars loon Aug 24 2006, 11:48 PM

Hi Alan,

thanks for your valuable contribution.

thats already > 100 x more votes than at the IAU

and I just saw a TV news report showing LOTS of EMPTY SEATS at the Prague Auditorium !!!

that does not impress me (as a fellow scientist) as overwhelming support for the demotion of Pluto.

The Fight for Pluto has begun .... !!!!!!!

as "The First Mission to the Last Planet" rockets outward to the unknown

ken

Posted by: Decepticon Aug 25 2006, 12:30 AM

I for one cheered when I heard the news!

I support the decision.

Posted by: David Aug 25 2006, 03:10 AM

If it had been up to me, personally, to make a decision on the matter, I would probably have minimally dubbed 2003 UB313 a planet, drawn a lower size limit at 2250 km, and left it at that. If I thought the world was ready for a more meaningful set of designations, I would have mandated breaking up the "planet" group into at least three groups, and maybe more, that were to be considered at least as different from each other as they are from asteroids. I would not have taken any criteria into account other than mass and diameter, and although I probably would not have relabeled large satellites as "planets", I would have provided for a parallel set of divisions for satellites.

However, it wasn't up to me, and I have to say that the only thing seriously wrong with the IAU decision is the "neighborhood clearing" language, which is too obscure to even be useful. It's fair to say that some large objects exert a gravitational influence on smaller objects in their surroundings, which if not as continuous as their influence over their satellites, is in some way comparable. We can certainly say that Jupiter's Trojans are in Jupiter's gravitational sphere of influence, and in a different way Pluto is under the influence of Neptune. I doubt that such spheres of influence can be extended to include every single asteroid and KBO, except in the most general sense, in which all the planets (particularly the giants) have non-negligible influence on the orbits of the others (Neptune's perturbations of Uranus' orbit being a famous example). But we don't want to conclude that Jupiter is the only planet in the Solar system -- doubtless for sentimental and unscientific reasons! I am not sure that even a better definition of what is meant by "orbit clearing" is going to clean this up; if we regarded the orbits of all Solar system objects as alike, without regard to the mass of the objects, I doubt that the "major planets" could be easily picked out of the crowd.

Other than this problematic limitation, I am not terribly perturbed by result of the decision; it was one reasonable decision out of many possible reasonable decisions. I don't think it was the wrong decision; but that doesn't mean that I think it was the right one. I think the real mistake here is to suppose that there are absolutely right or wrong decisions on a topic like this; it's certainly not a moral question, and "Pluto is a planet" is not a statement that can be determined to be true or false in the way that "Pluto has a diameter of c. 2300 km" can be. The category of planet doesn't exist in nature; it's a creation of the human mind, and only has meaning relative to what humans want to make of it.

I don't expect this to be the last word on the question; I think that additional information about the nature of the Solar system, while not fundamentally changing the various rationales used by planetarians and antiplanetarians, may well change the emotional relationship people have to the word "planet". I appreciate that people may have strong feelings on either side of the question, but at present I'm happy to let those people engage. The result of the IAU vote reflects, I think, more politics than science; the antiplanetarians were better organized, more unified, and more passionate than the planetarians, and arrived in Prague prepared to win. Now the planetarians have got a Cause of sorts, and they will have three years to organize before they go off to Rio de Janeiro. Perhaps at that time they will be in a better position - and perhaps not. Public reaction -- especially the public consisting of professional and amateur astronomers -- to the decision is likely to play a role. If people cannot be bothered to do anything but laugh at the decision, then it is likely to stick. If it's generally rejected by ordinary people who have an interest in astronomy, then the IAU may merely have discredited itself. It promises to be an interesting time.

Posted by: alan Aug 25 2006, 03:28 AM

I would have been happy with either of the possibilities they were voting on. If they passed 5B, potentially increasing the count to 50+ or even 100, how many of Pluto's defenders would now be objecting to all the riff - raff they were letting into the club?

Posted by: Myran Aug 25 2006, 03:42 AM

Science isnt something that you can start a politisized campaign about, or even worse lobbying!
If you think so, then you're out on very thin ice indeed. If you set this snowball in motion you'd end up to lobby against the gravity or perhaps evolution.
Yes this is no different from the politization of science which have infected the entire matter about not only evolution but also biology in the USA, as a consequence about half dont even know what DNA is.
So isnt it time to come to your senses here?

You cant campaign against a scientific matter, else you are in the same boat with the Intelligent design people that some of you have critisized elsewhere!

Posted by: tedstryk Aug 25 2006, 04:18 AM

That is well and good, but I really don't see how this is a scientific matter. It seems much more cultural/subjective, cloaked in scientific laguage, rendering the gravity/intelligent design arguement analogy out of bounds. Those deal with what is or isnt, or what happened versus what didn't. This debate is over how we want to define the word planet.

Posted by: Betelgeuze Aug 25 2006, 05:09 AM

Im in!

I dont mind if Pluto is a dwarf planet, but dwarf planets ARE planets. So please call it the fight for the dwarf planets instead of the fight for Pluto

Also on my new planetology comminity site(launched yesterday); http://www.AlphaOrionis.be/ I consider dwarf planets as a type of planets just like the terrestral and giant planets. This is my way of participating in the fight for the dwarf planets.
No matter what, having a dwarf planet section is never wrong on a planetology forum.

Posted by: JRehling Aug 25 2006, 05:45 AM

C - ommittee to
R - einstate
A - stronomy's
P - luto?

Nah.

S - ociety
L - iberating
O - utermost
P - lanet?

Nah.

C - ommittee
O - rganizing the
R - evitalization of
P - luto's
S - taus

Better.

O - rganization
N - ever

T - olerating
H - eretically
E -xcommunicated

D - iscovery
O - f
T - ombaugh

?

Maybe just Antipluto Defamation League? Pluto Liberation Army?

P - luto:
L - arger than
A - ny
N - egligible
E - xtraneptunian
T - errain

?

Posted by: djellison Aug 25 2006, 08:11 AM

The classification of Pluto as non-planetary doesnt bother THAT much....I'd rather it WERE a planet...however..

What bothers me is the crap defintion "clear its neigborhood" - that's utter nonsense, NO planet has cleared its neigborhood. It renders the entire planetary description as pointless as nothing has a clear neigbourhood in this solarsystem - so as of now, I believe we have NO planets.

Sod fighting for pluto....we're fighting for EARTH, Jupiter...ALL OF THEM.

Seriously - take out the 'neigborhood' clause - and I'm happy.

Doug

Posted by: dilo Aug 25 2006, 08:16 AM

I fully understand Alan is hungry, but, apart historic/cultural reasons, scientifically the Pluto privileges are hardly defendible... Alan's objection about "neighborhood clearing" do not consider that NEO and trojans are less than 1/1000 the size of Earth and Jupiter, respectively!
Pls, do not hate/heat me for this observation inside a pro-Pluto thread...

Posted by: chris Aug 25 2006, 08:35 AM

Did he skip breakfast? That might make him angry

Chris

Posted by: djellison Aug 25 2006, 08:49 AM

Dust is 1/1,000,000,000ths the size of my office - but I wouldn't say my office is clean

Doug

Posted by: Stephen Aug 25 2006, 09:22 AM

Which begs the question I have yet to get a straight answer to: why are so many astronomers (and maybe layfolk too) so keen to restrict the number of planets to a select few and what is the rationale behind it?

Even those in favour of including Pluto seem less than keen to widen the definition too far. Astronomers at the conference might have quibbled over whether there should be eight, nine or a dozen, but most if not all seemed to want some kind of cap.

Yet these same astronomers seem quite happy to accept that the terms "moon", "star", and "galaxy" should have no such limit. If there can be dozens of moons in the Solar System why can't that same solar system have dozens of planets?

What is the rationale for restricting the number of planets?

======
Stephen

Posted by: dilo Aug 25 2006, 10:00 AM

I skipped my breakfast, for sure!
Doug, about neghbord clearing you know what I meant... otherwise, I will issue a "Fight for Ceres!" campaign.

Posted by: djellison Aug 25 2006, 10:12 AM

Truth be told - I think we should be fighting for Ceres. It's a planet - it's a world - it's round, it's got features. Just because it lives with a few friends...it's not a planet? Thats stupid!!

A cow is a cow if it's in a field....or in a field with 20 goats.

Doug

(PS - Dilo - no, I thought I did get what you meant with your neigborhood comment, but clearly I have it wrong. There is no part of the solar system that can be considered a clean neigbourhood )

Posted by: Patteroast Aug 25 2006, 11:09 AM

The two results I was hoping for were either a definition with eight planets or one with lots. I think the most reasonable thing for everyone, though, would be having dwarf planets count as planets. I can't think of anything else where being called an 'dwarf x' can preclude being 'x'.

I also can't see why having lots of planets is a problem for people to remember.. you're only able to remember ~10 things? Just remember the classical planets. I don't think anyone is expecting schoolchildren to start memorizing every 400+ km object in the Kuiper Belt... but I'm sure I'd have fun doing it.

Posted by: Ames Aug 25 2006, 11:10 AM

Ok then, for "Star" there is:
Brown Dwarfs
White Dwarfs
Main Sequence
Sub Giants
Giants
Bright Giants
Super Giants
Along with spectral class {O,B,A,F,G,K,M}

And its worse for Galaxies!!

so "Dwarf Planet" is fine.

Nick

Posted by: Stephen Aug 25 2006, 11:23 AM

Too many of the elements in the IAU's definition are inherently flawed. Curiously that includes the very one that many people may have the least problem with: ""A planet is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun".

Just exactly how do you determine that body goes round the Sun? In many cases the answer is doubtless obvious. However, as with so much else in the universe there are always exceptions. One particularly bizarre example of such an exception is object J002E3, which paid a visit to our vicinity a few years ago. It is believed to be the http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2002/apollo.html. Its orbit is such that although it usually goes round the Sun it can perodically be captured by the Earth, orbit it for a while, then escape back into solar orbit again.

A more pertinent example of an exception, though, is Earth's own Moon. Apparently the Sun's gravitation field has a stronger pull on the Moon than the Earth's own field. (For more check out http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/teaching/convex.html and http://jimpetty.home.netcom.com/moon.htm; for a more explicitly worked out version of the maths check out http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2006/08/hoisted_from_co_8.html; and there's an interesting discussion of the problem, together with lots of maths, http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/68333.html; while http://www.exo.net/~pauld/activities/astronomy/threemoons.html puts a more democratic perspective on the issue: "the moon co-orbits the sun with the earth".)

Since the IAU chose not to define the yardstick(s) on which it determines when a body is in orbit around the Sun (and when it isn't), there seems no reason the balance of gravitation forces could not be used as that yardstick. Yet were that yardstick applied to the Moon it could be used as the basis for arguing that since the Sun has a stronger pull on the Moon than the Earth's own gravitation field, the Moon is therefore (technically) in effect going round the Sun rather than around the Earth and thus (technically) not a moon under the IAU resolution but either a planet or a dwarf planet (depending on the other elements in the definitions).

======
Stephen

Posted by: Stephen Aug 25 2006, 11:50 AM

OK, from the top.

1) "Brown dwarfs"

Brown dwarfs are (at best) seen as failed stars, not stars per se. They are not massive enough for their thermonuclear furnaces to have ignited. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_dwarf, which dubs them "sub-stellar objects".)

2) "White Dwarfs" "Main Sequence", "Sub Giants", "Giants", "Bright Giants", "Super Giants". Not mention all those spectral classes.

All these are subcategories of stars. That is, subsets of the objects termed "stars".

By contrast, under the IAU's definition a "dwarf planet" is not a kind of "planet". Under the IAU's definition "dwarf planet" and "planet" are different species of astronomical object.

3) Ditto for galaxies. Spiral galaxies and elliptical galaxies, for example, are all classed as galaxies, rather than as objects different to galaxies.


IMHO the IAU is going to rue the day it dubbed it's second-best category "dwarf planet". Too many of us lay people are going to mistakenly think that "dwarf planet" is a kind of "planet" rather than a different category of object. Presumably the term was a bone tossed to the Pluto crowd to keep them quiet.

======
Stephen

Posted by: Jyril Aug 25 2006, 12:00 PM

The unfortunate wording was selected to make the text clearer to a layman. It's up to the IAU to decide what the orbital clearing means. According to them, all the eight planets have cleared their neighborhoods, whereas Ceres, Pluto, and 2003 UB313 haven't.

Back to polls (http://skytonight.com/):

Posted by: djellison Aug 25 2006, 12:11 PM

Complete BULL. I'd have thought SL9 or Tunguska would have reminded us all that clearing is an ongoing process for every 'planet' in the solar system.

Their definition is very very very badly written. Take out the 'cleared' tag, and you make it just about acceptable.

Doug

Posted by: David Aug 25 2006, 12:26 PM

I thought they were scientists, scientifically superseding a fluffy floppy cultural-historical definition with a rigorous, technical scientific definition!

Posted by: Jyril Aug 25 2006, 12:28 PM

I have no problems with the "orbital dominance" (except for the horrible wording). Why? The IAU decided what is a planet, which is a primarily cultural term. It's more important for non-astronomers. They couldn't fathom the idea of dozens of planets. That's why the number of planets must be limited. Pluto posed a major problem, because it clearly was a member of population of many similar objects. There had to be a way to get it demoted.

Many of you actually think about non-satellite planetary mass objects, which is IMHO a completely different thing, actually. I think it would be wisest to limit the use of planet in non-scientific text and start to use the term "planemo" (or whatever) to refer any round object that does not fuse.

Phil Plait http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2006/08/15/congratulations-its-a-planet/:

Posted by: JRehling Aug 25 2006, 03:32 PM

The whole "neighborhood clearing" issue is bizarre. There are two ways a world can clear its neighborhood: By collision, and by ejecting smaller competitors. It's obvious that ejection, to the extent that it does proceed, take a long time. It's like a radioactive decay of the objects in crossing orbits, but the number doesn't go to zero even after eons. And there are ways that an object can actually attract crossing objects, in the Lagrangian positions, and in 3:2 resonances, etc.

Collision and ejection both take place at a rate determined in part by the mass of the object (collision also pertains to its radius). So this part of the definition is just a muddled attempt to make mass a criterion. Beyond which, it's ridiculous to suggest that Saturn only "became" a planet when it had sufficienly cleared its space. I think if you turn the clock back to the time when Saturn had hundreds of smaller bodies orbiting the Sun in its vicinity, you'd have a hard time looking at that massive globe and saying it's not a planet.

Posted by: David Aug 25 2006, 03:58 PM

There's also attracting small bodies into its orbit, but perhaps this doesn't count as "clearing". Jupiter and Saturn travel around cloaked in immense clouds of former "competitors".

Posted by: odave Aug 25 2006, 04:00 PM

Jupiter: "Dangit, I was just about to become a planet, but then stupid SL9 comes along. Do you know how long it's going to take me to clear this up?"

Posted by: dilo Aug 25 2006, 08:26 PM

advice: this post is OT here! sorry for this...

Stephen, I must confess that I ignored that ratio between the gravity force from Earth and from Sun is below 1 only for our moon!
Your links are very interesting and, apparently, all figures are right but... while math is right, there is a big flaw in the physics of all of them!
In fact, they forget that Earth-Moon system is not inertial! You cannot ignore that the Earth-Moon baricenter is moving in a circular trajectory, so there are other forces that must be considered in the game, especially the centrifugal force, which is equal to Sun gravity in the baricenter (but, obviously, points in the opposite direction).
The proof of how wrong are conclusions arising from application of inertial rules to such a rotating system is the question posed in the math forum you http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/68333.html: the asking guy calculated that the equilibrium point between Sun and Earth gravity is about 258000 Km from Earth, so he wonder how the Moon can still orbiting the Earth from a larger distance.
But it is well known that the equilibrium (Lagrange) points are located 1.5 million Km from the Earth, 6 times away and well behind Moon orbit. This result can be ontained only considerning also centrifugal force arising from the rotation around the Sun.
In conclusion, when two body are gravitationally linked (and Earth-Moon are linked without any doubt), you must first consider their movement around their common baricenter and, before to consider Sun attraction, you must subctract the motion of the baricenter around the Sun. All residual forces are very small and can be considered tidal forces or second-order rotational effects...

Posted by: David Aug 26 2006, 05:15 PM

Radicalized pro-Plutonians may find http://www.worth1000.com/cache/contest/contestcache.asp?contest_id=11570&display=photoshop amusing, or at least consoling.

Posted by: mars loon Aug 26 2006, 08:50 PM

David,

these are priceless gems

thank you.

in the meantime I have been working to integrate the "Fight for Pluto" campaign into my extensive public outreach efforts. Your contribution will help.

ken

Posted by: volcanopele Aug 26 2006, 09:44 PM

Sweet! I found a few that would work for my office door. I especially like the "this girl is crying because she was just told that Pluto is no longer a planet. What next? No Santa Clause?" one.

Posted by: vexgizmo Aug 29 2006, 05:53 AM

I count 4--I repeat: at least 4--of these use Ganymede as a generic icy world to represent Pluto. Now which planetary system ought we to be exploring?

Posted by: karolp Aug 30 2006, 01:46 PM

The more informed you are, the more you realise Pluto is a KBO. No wonder they used Ganymede

Posted by: mars loon Sep 2 2006, 01:42 PM

This statment is not true for many scientists and astronomers.

Here is a link to an article on space.com titled:

300 Astronomers Will Not Use New Planet Definition
Author Robert Roy Britt
http://www.livescience.com/blogs/2006/08/31/300-astronomers-wont-use-new-planet-definition/

More than 300 astronomers have signed a petition denouncing the IAU’s new planet definition that demotes Pluto. The petition states simply:

“We, as planetary scientists and astronomers, do not agree with the IAU’s definition of a planet, nor will we use it. A better definition is needed”

and another from NASAWATCH on 1 Sep:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=20725

Planet Definition by IAU Under Attack
Planetary Scientists and Astronomers Oppose New Planet Definition, Planetary Science Institute

"This petition gives substantial weight to the argument that the IAU definition of planet does not meet fundamental scientific standards and should be set aside," states petition organizer Dr. Mark Sykes, Director of the Planetary Science Institute in Tucson, Arizona. "A more open process, involving a broader cross section of the community engaged in planetary studies of our own solar system and others should be undertaken."

another quote from Dr. Mark Syskes : "I believe more planetary experts signed the petition than were involved in the vote on the IAU's petition."

At my upcoming science outreach events I will be circulating petitions for the public and scientists to sign if they wish as part of the campaign to restore Pluto to Full Planetary Status! Starting on Sep 12 in Princeton. Details will be posted soon.

ken

Posted by: karolp Sep 2 2006, 02:40 PM

If I were a US scientist I would put forward a petition that the search for the real trans-neptunian planet should be better funded. But I am not. So I will just observe and sigh that a jupiter or neptune may still be lurking in the "no man's land" between the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud while the leading scientific community prefers to cry over spilled milk of the closer trans-neptunian regions. I also do not like the IAU definition - not because of demoting Pluto but because of adding the annoying stretch of "dwarf planets" to pretend to save if from demotion. But I am not going to argue about it any further with anyone, I only put it here as my personal view.

Posted by: marsman Sep 2 2006, 04:21 PM

Here is a news article from CNN about an actual protest (withg signs!) on the decision to demote Pluto.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/09/02/pluto.protest.ap/index.html

Posted by: volcanopele Sep 7 2006, 08:12 PM

Even the California Legislature is now weighing in on this issue:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_0001-0050/hr_36_bill_20060824_introduced.pdf

Very nice read. Would be great if it passes, though there really is no teeth to it. Just condemns the IAU for its action. Though the wording has to make this the best piece of legislation I have ever read:

Posted by: odave Sep 8 2006, 12:17 PM

Now that is an excellent example of government in action! Though I do have some sensitivity for the "Californians who question their place in the universe", as a father, it's the bit about obsolete refrigerator art that gets me going

To the Barricades!

Posted by: Greg Hullender Sep 9 2006, 04:05 AM

volcanopele: Aren't you worried that it supports the idea that Science is "proven wrong" if it ever changes its mind about anything? This is a favorite argument of fundamentalist Christians opposed to evolution. Ability to change should be presented as a strength of science, not a weakness -- even if you happen to disagree with this particular change.

Or at least, that's how *I* see it. :-)

Posted by: DonPMitchell Sep 9 2006, 05:15 AM

The last issue of Nature has an article about the IAU and Pluto, "The Backlash Begins". It's safe to say, the status of Pluto is not settled, and the fur will fly at the next IAU conference.

I think the result will be overturned, because people are angry now that the "dynamicists" voted in their definition after 90 percent of the delegates had left, at the very end of the meeting. Kind of a dirty trick.

Posted by: gpurcell Sep 13 2006, 06:58 AM

Absolutely, it was a political hatchet job from start to finish. The "science" behind the definition is simply gloss to hide a naked policy preference.

Take it from someone in the dirty business of politics!

Posted by: tedstryk Sep 13 2006, 09:45 PM

I'm glad to see this happening, regardless of what the final outcome is. I think that it is a travesty that the anti-Pluto as a Planet crowd scheduled a vote on the last day with less than a fifth of the delegates still there. Rather than coming as an authoritative decision, it instead did damage to the IAU. This needs to be taken up during the main portion of their meetings, not as an addendum.

Posted by: Sedna Sep 14 2006, 10:48 PM

Even when discovered, it was doubted that Pluto was really a planet. Then, it was considered so "de facto". Now IAU's Assembly has corrected this historical mistake. Why did 90% of the delegates leave the Assembly before it had finished? It's their business... Pluto is NOT a planet. In addition, I think that Alan Stern's and company reaction is quite puerile...

Posted by: Jyril Sep 14 2006, 11:21 PM

Based on various comments on blogs and such, I got the impression that most astronomers at the meeting were not a bit interested on this brawl.

But on the other hand, they're not planetologists...

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 15 2006, 02:05 AM

Yeah, I can just imagine a guy who specializes in observations of distant galaxies thinking, "Why should I be concerned with such tiny little objects? I have whole galaxies to worry about!"

-the other Doug

Posted by: JRehling Sep 15 2006, 04:41 AM

When Mercury was discovered, it was doubted that it was a single object instead of two. Then it became a planet de facto.

Before the invention of the telescope, Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars were lumped into a single category with Jupiter and Saturn... de facto, despite the gross difference in nature of these worlds.



If there has been a year with more fumbling of the issue than 2006, I'd like to know when. The current definition puts Mercury (comes within 0.25 AU of Venus) in a group with Jupiter (29 times its size) instead of with Pluto (comes at closest within 11 AU of Uranus and not even that close to Neptune; half Mercury's size). And it creates a definition such that if we find two Mars- (or Neptune-!) sized objects in similar orbits, they will neither be considered planets -- but be called "dwarf" planets despite their size.



The IAU is running into the buzzsaw of a community much larger than their few hundred and the lack of a mandate to tell people what "planet" should mean.

Mind you, I think the odds of a non-foolish outcome are long, but this vote hasn't settled anything except that the IAU is good fodder for comedians.

Posted by: Rob Pinnegar Sep 15 2006, 06:00 AM

...Like for example the folks who came up with that piece of California legislation. I guess this is what happens when legislative types don't have anything to do on a Friday afternoon. Anyways, it was fun to read; it'll be a hoot if it passes, even though it won't mean anything. I can't wait for the first frivolous lawsuit.

I suppose that this is the sort of thing comedians must find totally irresistible: a major scientific organization doing something that is so easy for the public to find ridiculous. The last time something like this came along would, I suppose, have been when the paleontology community renamed Brontosaurus to Apatosaurus (thereby rearranging the "furniture of the mind" of the public, as was pointed out here earlier).

In that particular case, though, the reasons for doing it seemed pretty clear-cut at the time: prior discovery and naming that everybody had ignored. Here what we've got is a fairly major change in nomenclature that was carried out while the debate over what should, or should not, constitute a "planet" was still going on at a pretty basic level. No wonder people are wondering whether Gilligan is in charge here.

Posted by: dilo Sep 15 2006, 09:22 AM

About your example of two Mars- (or Neptune-!) sized objects in similar orbits, I doubt this would be a stable configuration... anyway, example doesn't apply to Pluto because, in this case, you should consider at least 3 other objects with similar dimensions and orbit (and we all know this number will grow in the few nest years!).
In this plot, I reported distance from Sun of all known Centaurus and Trans-Neptunian objects vs their absolute magnitude, so biggest objects are on the left (points represent semi-major axis while bars show range covered due to orbit eccentricity-note the logarithmic scale):


PS: Mercury wasn't really "discovered" and the same dicothomy occurred for Venus (Greek astronomers believed the planet to be two separate objects, one visible only at sunrise, the other only at sunset).

Posted by: ngunn Sep 15 2006, 10:28 AM

Nice diagram, but what is the object that appears further out than Sedna with an aphelion beyond 1000 AU?

Posted by: dilo Sep 15 2006, 11:20 AM

Good question.
It's name is 2000 OO67 (des. number 87269). This object exhibit a=537AU and e=0,961 (both higher than Sedna); this means an aphelion distance of 1053AU!
Voyager-1 will need more than 250 years to reach this distance...

Posted by: ljk4-1 Sep 15 2006, 01:44 PM

What is really amazing is that - as far as 2000 OO67 is - the *nearest* star
system to Sol is 272,000 AUs distant. Voyager 1 would take about 77,000
years to get that far at its current speed.

Posted by: ngunn Sep 15 2006, 02:18 PM

Mmm - interesting orbit, but with perihelion well within the giant planet zone at only 20.8 AU no real mystery about how it got there. I wonder if it grows a tail?

Posted by: dilo Sep 17 2006, 03:59 PM

I have same suspect, ngunn... considerng also the size (probably not more than few tens Km) it seems a cometary object.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Sep 23 2006, 04:37 AM

NOVA on PBS-TV recently replayed "Einstein's Big Idea", which was a dramatic
recreation of historic events that led to his famous E-mc2.

This passage from the transcript below reminds me of how the general public
is reacting to the decision of the IAU on Pluto:

JEANE MANSON (Dramatization): Let me guess, Marat. The King's scientific despot has decreed that your invention does not conform to the version of the truth as laid down by the Academy.

JEAN-PAUL MARAT: Lavoisier, he talks about facts; he worships the truth.

JEANE MANSON: Listen to me, my friend. They are all the same, the Royal Academies. They insult the liberty of the mind.

JEAN-PAUL MARAT: They think they are the sole arbiters of genius. They are rotten to the core, just like every other tentacle of the King. The people, it is they who will determine right and wrong.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3213_einstein.html

I can understand the public's reaction to Pluto being "demoted", but anyone who
compares Pluto between the KBOs and the eight major planets is going to see
the difference, and it is not slight.

Pluto has not disappeared or suddenly changed. It is part of a large collection of
objects in the outer Sol System quite unlike what is found further in. That alone
is worthy of study by space probe. I don't think New Horizons is going to be
called back.

Public is support is fine and even necessary, but when they start getting all worked
up over an object that is 3 billion miles from Earth and is essentially a big chunk of
frozen gases that can't even be seen without a powerful telescope, then I'm afraid
their judgement in this case is left wanting.

The same public reaction might have happened with Ceres if only it were known
for decades before finding its fellow planetoids. And had a cartoon dog named
after it.

Posted by: David Sep 23 2006, 05:50 AM

No, it's not slight; I mean, Mercury is 210% the size of Pluto -- a tremendous difference! Whereas the difference between Mercury and Jupiter is insignificant -- Jupiter's only a measly 29 times Mercury's size.

Don't these rabid Plutonists have any sense of proportion?

Posted by: laurele Sep 26 2006, 09:25 PM

[font=Times New Roman][size=4]

I strongly object to the demotion of Pluto by a small group of scientists voting based on very narrow criteria. There is no way I will accept this decision. If children I know are taught in school that there are eight planets in our solar system, I will correct this misinformation and teach them that there are nine (at least). This is revisionist history that would make George Orwell proud. Pluto orbits the sun and has three moons. The requirement that its orbit be on the same plane as Earth's is just one more example of human arrogance. In the long run, I believe this decision will be overturned. In the meantime, please count me in as an advocate who will do whatever I can to restore Pluto's rightful place in our solar system. You can also view my blog posting "In Defense of Pluto" at http://laurele.livejournal.com

Posted by: ugordan Sep 26 2006, 09:36 PM

It's not like anyone actually kicked Pluto out of our solar system or anything. Why don't you stand in defense of Ceres being reinstated as a planet, too? The decision to demote it could have also been considered "revisionist history". Why stop at Pluto? Why is it so special?

Posted by: Sedna Sep 26 2006, 09:37 PM

Teens and children here, Spain, are fortunately being already taught that the Solar System has just 8 planets.

Posted by: laurele Sep 26 2006, 09:53 PM

I have no problem with Ceres being reinstated as a planet. In fact, I think the 12-planet scheme originally considered by the IAU is much more appropriate.

Posted by: ugordan Sep 26 2006, 09:55 PM

Then why aren't you pushing for that, instead of demanding that only Pluto be reinstated?

Posted by: laurele Sep 27 2006, 04:12 AM

First, I would like to see this travesty of a decision by the IAU overturned, as I see it as a giant step backwards. I do and will advocate for the 12-planet alternative. Dr. Alan Stern is convening a conference of over 1,000 astronomers next summer to address this issue, and I'm pretty certain this scheme will be considered.

Posted by: ugordan Sep 27 2006, 06:58 AM

The way I see it you're pushing for a petition to reinstate Pluto, not demanding the IAU to make a better definition. If the petition was for a better, less sloppy definiton of a planet, I'd gladly sign it. This merely looks like someone god pi**ed about their favourite pet planet not being a planet anymore. How's that for "human arrogance"?

IMO, the time of a nine-planet solar system has passed. Either we have 8, hack it down even more to 4 or we have 12 or more. Pushing for Pluto only is wrong and IMO shows you're not interested as much in a good planet definition, but are interested in Pluto only.

Posted by: laurele Sep 27 2006, 03:47 PM

I did not create this petition, and I am not pushing for Pluto only. If I had, I would have put in language urging the overturning of the IAU definition of a planet adopted last month and the adoption of a better definition that includes Pluto, Eris, and possibly Ceres and Charon as well. The point here is that the process by which the decision was adopted was flawed as well as arbitrary and capricious. This, not just the Pluto issue, is what Dr. Alan Stern seeks to correct with his conference next year.

It's not a matter of reinstating Pluto vs. adopting a better definition of the word planet. In no way are these goals mutually exclusive. And I am not wedded to having a nine-planet solar system. In fact, I have no problem with us having 50 or 100 planets or more, but the IAU members who voted on this decision did have a problem with that.

However, I do feel strongly that the definition of the word planet ultimately adopted should include Pluto. A round object that orbits the sun, has an atmosphere and three moons is a planet. There is no reason it cannot be both a planet and a Kuiper Belt Object. But it is different from other Kuiper Belt objects which are mostly much smaller and do not have any moons.

Posted by: Kevin Heider Sep 27 2006, 07:09 PM

If Pluto is a Planet because it is spherical, then Ceres deserves the same status!



The lower end of Planets will always be arbitrary. Nature does not confirm to our rules. Rather we define Planets as Spheroids (~400+km in diameter depending on mass), being at least as big as Pluto (2300+km), at least as big as Mercury (4878+km), or Dominant in their orbit, all of these definitions will have borderline cases. What happens when we find a Spheriod 480km in diameter (perhaps Huya?) that has too many tall mountain ranges on one side and on the other side has a small bite taken out of it by a collision with another object? Do we call it spherical by self gravity? Do we call it a former Planet (ie: it was a planet until that other object deformed it)??

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/newsdesk/archive/releases/1997/27/image/f looks too me as if it might have been spherical until an object came along took a bite out of it. Because Vesta has a differentiated interior, is it a former 'Dwarf Planet'?



The IAU had to come up with a definition of a Planet because of all the other TNOs (a group for which Pluto belongs to) being discovered. Since one object (Eris) was discovered to be bigger than Pluto they could infer that other objects would also be bigger than Pluto. The IAU either had to keep Pluto as a Planet and let many other non-dominant obects be included as Planets OR they had to remove Pluto as a Planet. Keeping Pluto as an exception to the rule would be unscientific.



Since "most stars are part of a binary star system, most planets have satellites, http://www.nineplanets.org/ida.html, and some KBOs are known to have satellites", I find your statement that 'most do not have moons' to be inaccurate. Back in the 1960's no one thought Pluto had any satellites either. But since Pluto is one of the closest and most carefully studied KBOs they have found 3 satellites.



Currently moons are defined by their surrounding DOMINANT (more massive) Planet. But currently (for better or worse) we define both planets and moons by their surroundings. If we want to define Planets by 'what they are' instead of 'where they are', should we also call spherical moons as Planets? That would add 19 moons as Planets.

"and ('c') dominates the neighborhood around its orbit clearing it of comparable objects." is as good of definition as any.

-- Kevin Heider

Posted by: laurele Sep 27 2006, 07:29 PM

[quote name='Kevin Heider' post='70120' date='Sep 27 2006, 03:09 PM']
[quote]If Pluto is a Planet because it is spherical, then Ceres deserves the same status!
The lower end of Planets will always be arbitrary. Nature does not confirm to our rules. Rather we define Planets as Spheroids (~400+km in diameter depending on mass), being at least as big as Pluto (2300+km), at least as big as Mercury (4878+km), or Dominant in their orbit, all of these definitions will have borderline cases. What happens when we find a Spheriod 480km in diameter (perhaps Huya?) that has too many tall mountain ranges on one side and on the other side has a small bite taken out of it by a collision with another object? Do we call it spherical by self gravity? Do we call it a former Planet (ie: it was a planet until that other object deformed it)??[/quote]

Why can't there be a subcategory of planets that are also Kuiper Belt Objects? Many asteroids in the Kuiper Belt would not fit this description, but setting a minimum size plus other factors such as having moons and an atmosphere would be a good start. Pluto is sufficiently larger and different than most Kuiper Belt Objects. Maybe we are discovering a whole new type of planets.

[quote][quote]http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/newsdesk/archive/releases/1997/27/image/f looks too me as if it might have been spherical until an object came along took a bite out of it. Because Vesta has a differentiated interior, is it a former 'Dwarf Planet'?
The IAU had to come up with a definition of a Planet because of all the other TNOs (a group for which Pluto belongs to) being discovered. Since one object (Eris) was discovered to be bigger than Pluto they could infer that other objects would also be bigger than Pluto. The IAU either had to keep Pluto as a Planet and let many other non-dominant obects be included as Planets OR they had to remove Pluto as a Planet. Keeping Pluto as an exception to the rule would be unscientific.[/quote][/quote]

I'm not advocating keeping Pluto as an exception. I am advocating objects the size of Pluto or larger be considered planets. So far the only one found is Eris, but if others are found, they should be considered planets too. I think Vesta is a lot smaller than both Pluto and Eris. The IAU definition makes no sense because it creates a term "dwarf planet," which appears to be a noun modified by an adjective, but then says a dwarf planet is not a planet. That's like saying a grizzly bear is not a bear. They need to do better than this and have far more participation and deliberation in the process.

[quote]Since "most stars are part of a binary star system, most planets have satellites, http://www.nineplanets.org/ida.html, and some KBOs are known to have satellites", I find your statement that 'most do not have moons' to be inaccurate. Back in the 1960's no one thought Pluto had any satellites either. But since Pluto is one of the closest and most carefully studied KBOs they have found 3 satellites.
Currently moons are defined by their surrounding DOMINANT (more massive) Planet. But currently (for better or worse) we define both planets and moons by their surroundings. If we want to define Planets by 'what they are' instead of 'where they are', should we also call spherical moons as Planets? That would add 19 moons as Planets.[/quote]

An uncontested portion of the IAU's definition is that a planet must orbit a star, not another planet. Therefore, moons do not count as planets. The only uncetain case is Charon. If Charon and Pluto orbit one another and the sun, both are planets, a binary system. If Charon orbits Pluto but Pluto does not orbit Charon, then Charon is solely a moon.

What other KBOs that we know about, other than Pluto and Eris, have moons? How large are these KBOs?

[quote]"and ('c') dominates the neighborhood around its orbit clearing it of comparable objects." is as good of definition as any.[/quote]

I disagree. Neptune does not clear its orbit of Pluto, and Jupiter does not clear its orbit of many asteroids. Even Earth does not fully clear its orbit of asteroids. The only way this provision holds is if we go back to size--ie, Neptune is bigger than Pluto; Jupiter is bigger than the asteroids in its orbital field. This definition is poorly worded and problematic because it sets up a double standard.



[/quote]

Posted by: Kevin Heider Sep 27 2006, 10:19 PM

laurele: Why can't there be a subcategory of planets that are also Kuiper Belt Objects?

If we find only one object (as large as Mars) in the Kuiper Belt we might call it a Planet assuming that we do not find too many KBOs in the 400+km range. Whether such an object is a planet or not is a function of the mass of the belt vs the mass of the planetary contender. We currently do not call Pluto a planet for basically the same reason that we do not call Ceres a Planet. Ceres and Pluto are both Belt Objects surrrounded by many other comparable belt objects. The term 'Dwarf Planet' is not a bad way to make these large planetesimals stick out from the lesser asteroids.

Are you aware that from roughly 1801 to 1850 that Ceres, Vesta, Pallas, and Juno were known as primary planets? See: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/hilton/AsteroidHistory/minorplanets.html AND read about http://spaceweather.com/swpod2006/13sep06/Pollock1.jpg


laurele: Many asteroids in the Kuiper Belt would not fit this description, but setting a minimum size plus other factors such as having moons and an atmosphere would be a good start. Pluto is sufficiently larger and different than most Kuiper Belt Objects.

They have currently confimed over 783 Kuiper Belt Objects, and are constantly confirming more. At least 16+ of them could be large enough to be spherical. What does having moons have to do with being a Planet? Nothing! Venus does not have any moons and no normal person is questening it's status as a Planet.

Mercury is so close to the Sun that it does not have much of an atmosphere even though it is 23x more massive than Pluto. Pluto has a non-circlier orbit that varies from 29-50AU from the Sun. Pluto only has an atmospehere when it is near it's closest point to the Sun. When Pluto drifts back out further into the solar system that very thin atmosphere will freeze to the surface. Pluto is estimated to be roughly 60% ice and 40% rock. If Pluto were orbiting were Mars is today, a lot of Pluto's mass would burn-off and escape Pluto's weak gravity. This scenerio could very well be another reason to compare Pluto to Ceres.


laurele: Maybe we are discovering a whole new type of planets

Asteroids (between Mars & Jupiter) are rocky planetesimals, were as, KBOs and Comets (due to their average great distance from the Sun) are often made of more ice than rock. But they are still planetesimals.


laurele: I am advocating objects the size of Pluto or larger be considered planets.

Why arbitrarily decide that Pluto defines what is a planet and what is not?

Planet: One of the seven celestial bodies, Mercury, Venus, the moon, the sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, visible to the naked eye and thought by ancient astronomers to wander in the heavens above a fixed Earth and among fixed stars. The word “planet” comes from the Greek word for “wanderer".

"Mercury (which modern science has shown to be the smallest planet) has been known as a Planet for thousands of years, were as Pluto has NOT even been known for 100 years."


laurele: The IAU definition makes no sense because it creates a term "dwarf planet," which appears to be a noun modified by an adjective, but then says a dwarf planet is not a planet.

When http://www.georgedishman.f2s.com/astronomy/planet.html to pass, it was decided that a 'Dwarf Planet' (compound noun) would be excluded from the list of 'Planets'.

Before 5A Section (3) passed we had 136,000+ Minor Planets.


laurele: An uncontested portion of the IAU's definition is that a planet must orbit a star, not another planet.

I wouldn't say it is uncontested. If every small spheroid (some possibly as small as 400km in diameter) is considered a Planet then I would hope moons that are spheroids (7 of which are larger than Pluto) would also be considered as being included in a new definition. You are talking about redefining the definition of a Planet and that means no reasonable idea can be dismissed.


laurele: What other KBOs that we know about, other than Pluto and Eris, have moons?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_EL61 has 2 moons. But it, like Pluto & Eris, have been very closely studied objects. As we learn more about KBOs I am sure that we will find many more satellites around KBOs.


Kevin: "and ('c') dominates the neighborhood around its orbit clearing it of comparable objects."
laurele: Neptune does not clear its orbit of Pluto, and Jupiter does not clear its orbit of many asteroids. Even Earth does not fully clear its orbit of asteroids.

Neptune is 7500x more massive than Pluto, they are not comparable.
Jupiter trapped all those asteroids at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_asteroids. Let's see Pluto do that.
Show me a NEA comparable to the Earth.

-- Kevin Heider

Posted by: laurele Sep 29 2006, 11:19 PM

If we find only one object (as large as Mars) in the Kuiper Belt we might call it a Planet assuming that we do not find too many KBOs in the 400+km range. Whether such an object is a planet or not is a function of the mass of the belt vs the mass of the planetary contender. We currently do not call Pluto a planet for basically the same reason that we do not call Ceres a Planet. Ceres and Pluto are both Belt Objects surrrounded by many other comparable belt objects. The term 'Dwarf Planet' is not a bad way to make these large planetesimals stick out from the lesser asteroids.

Pluto and Ceres are not comparable, as Pluto is much larger. Pluto is also not comparable with the vast majority of Belt objects surrounding it , which are very small and often not spherical in shape. The same may be said of Ceres in relation to its surrounding asteroids. Again, we're back to the unresolved question of how large an object has to be to qualify as a planet.

There is no "we do not currently call Pluto a planet" because there is no "we." What we have today is an unresolved dispute among scientists over Pluto's status and still no clear definition of the word "planet." The small number of IAU members who voted on this and the fact that an almost equal number of scientists signed a petition against the IAU definition and said they would not use it make it very clear that this is still a debate in progress.


Are you aware that from roughly 1801 to 1850 that Ceres, Vesta, Pallas, and Juno were known as primary planets? See: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/hilton/AsteroidHistory/minorplanets.html.

They have currently confimed over 783 Kuiper Belt Objects, and are constantly confirming more. At least 16+ of them could be large enough to be spherical. What does having moons have to do with being a Planet? Nothing! Venus does not have any moons and no normal person is questening it's status as a Planet.

These Kuiper Belt Objects may be spherical but what is their size in relation to Pluto, Eris and even Ceres? Many KBOs are very tiny and in that way clearly different from these three. Also, linguistically, minor planets are still planets. They are a subclass of the larger category. The IAU's creation of the term "dwarf planet" and subsequent claim that "dwarf planets" are not planets at all whether major or minor, makes no sense.

Having moons is a characteristic of all but two of the major planets. In contrast, no asteroids have satellites.
Mercury and Jupiter have very litttle in common, yet both are considered planets, and no one is questioning this. Again, we're back to the uncertainty of what defines a planet. With the IAU definition clearly unsatisfactory, the question remains unresolved.

laurele: Maybe we are discovering a whole new type of planets

Asteroids (between Mars & Jupiter) are rocky planetesimals, were as, KBOs and Comets (due to their average great distance from the Sun) are often made of more ice than rock. But they are still planetesimals.
laurele: I am advocating objects the size of Pluto or larger be considered planets.

So is it the composition of the object that determines whether or not it qualifies as a planet? The gas giants have little in common with the terrestrial planets. If the Kuiper Belt contains planet-sized objects largely made of ice, perhaps that should establish them as a third type of planet, one which we are only now discovering. The word "planet" is a very broad term, and there is no reason it cannot have many subcategories including "minor planet." In fact, one of the IAU proposals stated that a planet must have a spherical shape and orbit the sun, with nothing at all about "clearing its orbit."

Why arbitrarily decide that Pluto defines what is a planet and what is not?

Planet: One of the seven celestial bodies, Mercury, Venus, the moon, the sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, visible to the naked eye and thought by ancient astronomers to wander in the heavens above a fixed Earth and among fixed stars. The word “planet” comes from the Greek word for “wanderer".

Then if we use the classical definition, Uranus and Neptune are not planets either since they are not visible to the naked eye, and ancient astronomers knew nothing about them. And the sun and moon would once again qualify as planets.

"Mercury (which modern science has shown to be the smallest planet) has been known as a Planet for thousands of years, were as Pluto has NOT even been known for 100 years."

So does the definition of planet center on how long we have known about an object? Again, that would likely exclude Uranus and Neptune.

Since Pluto's status is still unresolved, it's not clear that Mercury rather than Pluto is the smallest planet.

[i]laurele: The IAU definition makes no sense because it creates a term "dwarf planet," which appears to be a noun modified by an adjective, but then says a dwarf planet is not a planet.

When http://www.georgedishman.f2s.com/astronomy/planet.html to pass, it was decided that a 'Dwarf Planet' (compound noun) would be excluded from the list of 'Planets'.[/i]

What this means is that the IAU, or rather, the very small minority of scientists who took part in this vote, made a colossal mess. There is absolutely no sound reasoning to say a "dwarf planet" is not a planet. This has to be revisited. Anyone can pass or vote down a resolution, but the resolution is pretty worthless if it makes no sense. And why did the IAU only allow members present in the room to vote and wait until the last day to hold the vote? Are they incapable of voting by email? This was clearly a political move by those who wanted to demote Pluto and is thereby suspect. It was not a scientific decision; this view is held by many planetary scientists including IAU members not present on that day.

Before 5A Section (3) passed we had 136,000+ Minor Planets.

And what is the problem with that? Why not establish a list of major planets and another of minor planets, all the while recognizing both are planets of some type.


I wouldn't say it is uncontested. If every small spheroid (some possibly as small as 400km in diameter) is considered a Planet then I would hope moons that are spheroids (7 of which are larger than Pluto) would also be considered as being included in a new definition. You are talking about redefining the definition of a Planet and that means no reasonable idea can be dismissed.

It's not a matter of being spheroids but of orbiting the sun and not orbiting another object.


[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_EL61]2003 El61[/url] has 2 moons. But it, like Pluto & Eris, have been very closely studied objects. As we learn more about KBOs I am sure that we will find many more satellites around KBOs.

What is the size of 2003_EL61; where is it located in relation to Pluto and Eris, and is it similar to both of them? If so, it may very well be another Kuiper Belt Object that is also a planet.


Neptune is 7500x more massive than Pluto, they are not comparable.
Jupiter trapped all those asteroids at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_asteroids. Let's see Pluto do that.
Show me a NEA comparable to the Earth.

Does trapping the asteroids mean clearing them of its orbit? Why is "clearing an area of its orbit" a qualification for planethood, and how is such a phenomenon defined?
You go back to size when talking about how much more massive Neptune is than Pluto. That indicates your criteria is size, not clearing its orbit since no matter what the size difference, Neptune does not clear its orbit of Pluto. There is no way of getting around that fact. This goes back to the motive of the IAU minority who approved this definition, which was very specifically to exclude Pluto individually.

Posted by: Sedna Sep 29 2006, 11:53 PM

Good reasonement. What is Pluto? A dwarf planet, for humans of planet Earth (or for IAU, the AUTHORITY, though it may hurt to somebody...). Does it really matter what it is for us? Not really... I think it's not a planet. I'm not really in agreement in the new definition of "dwarf planet", I would set apart just planets and minor planets (or KBO's and Asteroid Belt big bodies with another name, maybe...), not intermediate bodies. Anyway, Pluto is Pluto, regardless of what we, just humans, say about such a body, or bodies like Pluto. It was doubted that Pluto was a planet when discovered, and it has been ruled out as such. An historical error has been corrected. New Horizons will now visit a new kind of body never (not even by Voyagers...) visited before. I find out that this is even more interesting that before, not the opposite.

Posted by: laurele Sep 30 2006, 12:40 AM

I have already stated that I want a better definition of the word "planet," and this is not just about Pluto. As for the IAU, I question who made them the "authority" on this? What about the equal number of planetary scientists who signed the dissenting petition? The process the IAU conducted was highly unprofessional and represents a very small portion of its entire membership. The way they went about making this decision detracts from their credibility. It's not a matter of anyone being personally hurt, but a matter of the havoc the IAU has created by going about its decision so poorly. Dr. Alan Stern described it as "sloppy science that would never pass peer review" and "an embarrassment to astronomy."

I'm glad you see the flaws with this "dwarf planet" definition and agree with the obvious statement that our perceptions and labeling do not change what Pluto is. At the same time, I have a serious problem with the IAU's designating it a number as just another asteroid, which it clearly is not.

Again, I repeat, Pluto has not been ruled out as being a planet. This debate will continue at Dr. Stern's conference next year, the IAU conference in 2009, and the New Horizons visit in 2015. I just think it's premature to assume this is a "done deal" when it clearly is not.

Posted by: Sedna Sep 30 2006, 01:16 AM

So do I, as a minor planet or such maybe...



The authority made itself. Who made the President of the United Stated, or UK, or Spain such a President? People did. With IAU, astronomers did, one year ago, or 100 years ago...



Maybe you are pertaining to IAU, or you were in the Assembly... I wasn't yet, unfortunately... and, from my first news, I was decided to accept IAU's decision, even the first one of 12 planets... though I was eager to find out Pluto to be ruled out as a planet (why not Ceres if the opposite)? We all know that this Assembly was not decided to promote Ceres to planet status, but the opposite for Pluto, or to decide Pluto's status, not Ceres'. Is Ceres a planet? Maybe, but I stick to IAU's resolution, and neither Ceres nor Pluto are planets... A pity... Not, probably, but if the IAU decides to promote Ceres and Pluto (both of them, not just Pluto!) to the status of planet, I will have to accept it, regardless of my personal opinion. "Some people" can not be in agreement, but it's their business... Regarding IAU, will you accept "Eris" for 2003UB313, or will you find a better alternative name?... IAU is the authority, not decided by me, of course, but by most of astronomers... And, finally, Pluto was assigned a MP number. It was offered "10000" as a honour, but was not accepted... now they/we have to accept this second one, no other chance...

Posted by: laurele Sep 30 2006, 05:00 AM

So do I, as a minor planet or such maybe...
The authority made itself. Who made the President of the United Stated, or UK, or Spain such a President? People did. With IAU, astronomers did, one year ago, or 100 years ago...
Maybe you are pertaining to IAU, or you were in the Assembly... I wasn't yet, unfortunately... and, from my first news, I was decided to accept IAU's decision, even the first one of 12 planets... though I was eager to find out Pluto to be ruled out as a planet (why not Ceres if the opposite)? We all know that this Assembly was not decided to promote Ceres to planet status, but the opposite for Pluto, or to decide Pluto's status, not Ceres'. Is Ceres a planet? Maybe, but I stick to IAU's resolution, and neither Ceres nor Pluto are planets... A pity... Not, probably, but if the IAU decides to promote Ceres and Pluto (both of them, not just Pluto!) to the status of planet, I will have to accept it, regardless of my personal opinion. "Some people" can not be in agreement, but it's their business... Regarding IAU, will you accept "Eris" for 2003UB313, or will you find a better alternative name?... IAU is the authority, not decided by me, of course, but by most of astronomers... And, finally, Pluto was assigned a MP number. It was offered "10000" as a honour, but was not accepted... now they/we have to accept this second one, no other chance...

The IAU made itself an authority? So what is to stop an alternative group from making itself an equal authority, as is likely to happen with Dr. Stern's conference of 1,000 astronomers next summer? What happens if the IAU is itself divided? The comparison with the president of the US doesn't hold because the president was elected in a very specific process laid out in the US Constitution. If that process were conducted in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution, the election would be voided and a new one held.

I was not present at the Assembly, but I do not choose to blindly accept whatever the IAU or any other organization or individual, for that matter, decides upon at any given time simply because they are considered an "authority." It's not even clear the group who voted represent a consensus within the IAU. We're talking 424 out of 10,000! It's not just individuals' business if they are not in agreement. We are talking about definitions and classifications that impact the entire world. If two groups of scientists are equally qualified to make the determination, why should one group's view take precedence over the other's? As far as Eris, I am more interested in it obtaining planet status than what its name is. Like I said, I think the 12-planet scheme is far more accurate.

I will admit I'm unfamiliar with the issue of Pluto being offered "10,000" as a number. Who made such an offer; who rejected it, and why does Pluto need a number at all? Why can't it simply be known as Pluto? And why do you say there is "no other chance" regarding this? There is always a chance to revisit an issue if the first decision was flawed. I'm curious; if next year Dr. Stern's group of 1,000 decides on a different definition of planet and adopts the 12-planet scheme, how will you decide which view to accept?

Posted by: Sedna Oct 1 2006, 02:19 AM

IAU made itself in the sense that, when it was constituted, astronomers arround the world accepted this association as the ruling one in astronomical affairs, such as definitions or naming issues. Will Dr. Stern constitute an alternate association? I don't know... A star could be, for instance, be named in two different ways or weird things like this... I think that this also "applies" somehow to the president of any country. Of course a big law baggage is set behind, but where you asked if you even wanted a president to be elected? Maybe you don't want ANY president, but you are told to elect one... IAU should be respected in the decisions it takes, even if those are not in agreement with our thoughts... Is a "coup d'etat" the solution for an unpopular decision of a goverment?



424 members voted. Why not all of them?, it's their business, ask them... I think Pluto is not a planet, but if IAU had taken the decision to establish the 12-planet scheme, I would have accepted it... BTW, Eris seems to be a good name, doesn't it?



I will accept, IAU's, for the time being. This is a serious thing, this is science and an authority is needed, like IUPAP in Physics or IUPAC in Chemistry. Why to give Pluto a number? Well, why do the asteroids "Pizarro" (4609) or "Valencia" (5941) need a number? Science needs to clasificate things, among many other things. Now Pluto, or 2003UB313 are "Minor Planets" and, as such, they have been given their numbers.

Posted by: JRehling Oct 1 2006, 05:04 AM

If you mean "defined" when you say "named", this is already true of the word "star" (in a celestial sense, even, not counting the Hollywood/sports senses or the pointy-shape sense, etc.).

From the Random House dictionary:

1. any of the heavenly bodies, except the moon, appearing as fixed luminous points in the sky at night.
2. Astronomy. any of the large, self-luminous, heavenly bodies, as the sun, Polaris, etc.
3. any heavenly body.

Note the word "Astronomy" qualifying the 2nd definition. #1 and #3 also refer to bodies in the sky; #2 is "scientific". But #1 would be the sense used when someone at a campground points to Jupiter and asks a friend, "What's that bright star?" This kind of situation begs pedants to deny definition #1 and unilaterally enforce definition #2 and tell the person, wrongly, that it isn't a star. Jupiter is a star... of the kind definition #1 designates.

Here's what's so terrible about what happened in 2006. It's not that Pluto was demoted. It's that a terribly boneheaded approach to definition has been held up as a standard. It is taken for granted that planet, unlike "star", unlike "work", unlike "set", unlike most of the words in any language, should henceforth have just ONE definition. (Note to committee: WRONG.) And that it should be decided by committee (Note to committee: WRONG.)

"Planet" should get no worse than the treatment Random House gave to "star". There is an inalienable sense in which Pluto is most certainly a planet, and committees don't touch that definition; they don't have the authority to. And the reason why Pluto qualifies by that standard is precisely the same reason why Europe is a continent and a starfish is a "fish" (Random House's definition #2 of "fish", not the scientific one at #1): because people call it one.

A committee may have the right to lay down ONE of the definitions of "planet"... if there's one that is useful and makes sense. The IAU's definition of 2006 (both of the proposed ones, actually) fail on both counts. Unlike definition #2 of "star", this definition of "planet" is NOT scientifically useful. That, it has become clear, would be true of any attempted definition. It also makes poor sense, whereas a definition that laid out an objective standard like a minimum diameter of 2000 km would at least make sense, and would only have two glaring problems with it (not scientifically useful; not for a committee to dictate as the only definition of "planet").

In whatever small way it matters, I call Pluto a planet. I won't stop doing so. I call Eris a planet. I won't stop doing so. I make no bones about having any standard other than "I know it when I see it" -- exactly the way I handle "mountain", "boulder", and "river". Every now and then I'll call something a mountain and someone else will call it a hill. Oh, well. I'm not going to be the only one calling Pluto a planet, and the committee is not going to own the term. They might get to own one of several definitions of "planet". That's all the power over this they deserve. Pluto will remain a planet according to other definitions and it will finally hit people over the head that, like "river", that's the kind of concept that "planet" is.

"Prime number" has a fixed, rigorous definition. The facts around the matter support that. "Planet" never will because the facts around it don't support that.

When New Horizons flies past Pluto, I guarantee that the rejection of the "planetness" of Pluto will be significantly crumbled. Whether this re-planetization has an in-committee component or just a grassroots component is hard to say. But the demotion is not going to stick.

Posted by: djellison Oct 1 2006, 07:20 AM

This thread is getting overly heated ( as it was obvious it would )

I'm not going to close the thread - but I will if it continues like this. I've had complaints of insults from both 'sides' (despite only seing some a few days ago and deleted threads at that time)

Might I suggest that Sedna and Laurele BOTH step away from this discussion - if you continue to post in ways that draw complaints - I will not hesitate to suspend both of your accounts.

Doug

Posted by: Greg Hullender Oct 1 2006, 08:29 PM

Since Mike Brown, discoverer of the erstwhile "tenth planet," truly had the most to lose from this, I really do think it makes sense for people to read his thoughts in support of the eight-planet definition:

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/eightplanets/

This is quite short -- fewer than 2,000 words -- and fairly easy reading even for a non-technical person. I have a lot of respect for someone who can sacrifice his own self-interest in favor of what he thinks is the best thing to do scientifically. People who want to argue the contrary (that "Planet" should include more than 8 planets) really ought to respond to his arguments first and foremost.

Posted by: Alan Stern Oct 1 2006, 08:57 PM

My reply to Mike Brown is in an interview we did together for Air & Space, see: http://airspacemag.com/issues/2006/october-november/FEATURE-PlutoDebate.php

Everyone can form their own opinion of his evolving thoughts from this....

Posted by: Greg Hullender Oct 2 2006, 05:37 AM

Thanks Alan. That was great! (Except for the Snapple ad on the first page obscuring the text -- I had to copy and paste that part of the article to read it.)

You two don't actually sound all that far apart in this article. Especially at the point where you want to make a term for "planetary bodies." Is there any special reason not to push the term "planetoid" for that? I know Mike Brown has proposed it at least once.

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/whatsaplanet/revolt.html

I realize it's an old term for an asteroid, but surely that usage has long expired. Non-fusing bodies large enough to be in hydostatic equilibrium really deserve a sexy name -- and at the moment they've got none at all. Heck, it would even be easier to explain to kids, "Well, you know scientists usually talk about planetoids, not planets, because planet is also about location, and location doesn't really matter that much."

Posted by: MahFL Oct 2 2006, 11:12 AM

Well I still think of Pluto as a planet, small, cold and far far away.

Posted by: Alan Stern Oct 2 2006, 11:53 AM

Greg-

I agree, Mike is coming around.

As to your question about the term "planetoid," I'm not keen on it because it sounds like a
small thing.

But when I say something is a "planetary body" (PB) I include everything anywhere from a dwarf
just big enough to be in hydro equilibrium to a giant like Jupiter. Some PB's orbit their stars, some
orbit other planets (e.g., Titan, Triton, Io, etc.), and some are simply orbiting freely in the ISM
owing to ejection from planetary systems.

This naturally suggests a 3x3 matrix of PB types; I give some example assignments in the table
below:

Satellite Planet Unbound Planet
Dwarf Triton Pluto TBD
Terrestrial Titan Venus TBD
Gaint None Jupiter TBD

Just for ease of round numbers, I put the cutoff between Dwarfs and Terrestrials as a mass
of 0.1 Mearth (just below Mars) and I put the cutoff for Giants at 10 Mearth (just shy of
Uranus and Neptune).

One could go further with more categories, but this is the simple system I advocate.

-Alan

Posted by: SFJCody Oct 2 2006, 02:09 PM

I still like the system I came up with last year:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sfjcody2/planetarycatesmall.png

Posted by: Greg Hullender Oct 2 2006, 02:23 PM

What is the boundary on the ability of a planet to hold a hydrogen atmosphere? If I remember right, there's an exponential function of time in the equation, so the boundary should be fairly sharp. That seems like the most logical boundary between Terrestrial planets and Giant planets. Or is that already 10 MEarth?

As for "planetoid" meaning small, I know that was the historical meaning, but I think most people know that in general -oid just means "similar to." Lay people don't think "humanoids" are little humans, and I'm pretty sure scientists don't think spheroids are little spheres. :-) I think "planetoid" could work -- meaning that everything from Ceres to Jupiter would be a planetoid -- if the right people got behind it. That might just be you and Mike. :-)

Posted by: JRehling Oct 2 2006, 09:08 PM

It depends upon temperature. Go out to where it's 2K, and a pebble of solid hydrogen would hold itself. Orbit just above the corona and Neptune couldn't hold it together. The latter type of world has been named "chthonian", in case we find any.

I raise an eyebrow at the idea that temperature would become such an important determining characteristic of "planet". But then I raise an eyebrow at any characteristic that is ex post facto to usage and tries to "reverse engineer" what people mean. When you find yourself needing such factors, it's time to concede that there isn't a natural category that deserves a precise definition. I don't know why people have such a hard time even addressing that point. I've heard people refer to "Nobel Prize fever" before. I think the main phenomenon we have here is "definition fever". Something big is (possibly) going to be decided and people would rather be a part of defining something than deciding not to define something. So the awkward definitions come rapid fire.

Posted by: Kevin Heider Oct 2 2006, 09:12 PM

What would happen if we took Jupiter (as it is today) and put it in place of Mars? Would Jupiters strong gravity and magnetosphere help protect Jupiter from the now stronger solar winds and radiation? Or would Jupiter be reduced to a 10 Earth Mass object in 1 billion years as it is stripped of most of it's hydrogen and helium?

Posted by: Bart Oct 3 2006, 12:11 AM

"A diagram for the evaporation status of extrasolar planets" A. Lecavelier des Etangs
http://fr.arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0609/0609744.pdf

Bottom line: not a whole lot would happen

(to Jupiter that is )

Posted by: Kevin Heider Oct 3 2006, 08:51 AM

Stern: it creates a situation—untenable, in my view—that a given object can be a planet in some circumstances and not in others. For example, the Earth, by this definition, would count as a planet at its current distance from the Sun. But if you moved the Earth out into the distant reaches of the solar system and discovered it there, it would not be a planet [because it wouldn’t have cleared its orbit]. And the same is true if you put Jupiter in the Oort cloud.

If it were orbiting another planet, I would call it a satellite that’s a planetary body.


Brown: Earth further away, Jupiter further away—I would agree you wouldn’t classify those as planets by this definition. But that actually makes it very interesting. Why would you not classify a Jupiter in the Oort cloud as a planet? Because it behaves very differently. It has had a very different history than these other eight planets.

But if you put it in orbit around another planet, it suddenly becomes a satellite. If you really go with the physical criteria, you don’t care where it’s located.


Heider: Mars in orbit around Jupiter. Titan in orbit around Saturn. Huya a Planet. Equal rights for equal mass? Perhaps the definition either needs to be ALL inclusive or dynamically exclusive!

-- Kevin Heider

Posted by: Superstring Oct 3 2006, 02:17 PM

I agree with this. My original definition made any non-fusing gravitationally-rounded object a planet (including moons)...with sets of sub-categories based on orbit and physical traits. Although I still maintain this is the most scientific scheme...it lacks cultural acceptance. Do you really think people will start calling the moon a "secondary planet" as opposed to "a moon"? That won't fly. Since we have to make a separation between moon and planet...two categories for the same physical kind of object...why not further distinguish spheroids that are orbitally dominant and those that are part of a swarm? Ceres, Pluto, Eris, Quaoar, etc are all planetoids...that is, they are large enough to be a planet, but they are not dynamically significant bodies and thus do not quite meet the requirement for planethood.

I think this concept is easy to explain. There are 3 types of large objects in any given solar system: Planet=orbits star, controls its own orbit. Planetoid=orbits star in a region of other objects and planetoids. Moon=orbits planet or planetoid and (IMO) also has to be round. The remaining small objects can be divided into asteroids, comets, and moonlets. All of the above classes can still have sub-classes.

I think this is a scientifically good scheme. It enables us to teach the 8 planets, plus the Main Belt (which contains many asteroids and one planetoid) and also the Kuiper Belt (which is larger and contains asteroids, comets, and planetoids).

Posted by: JRehling Oct 3 2006, 03:24 PM

To one and (almost) all:

This planet definition issue isn't a scientific matter, really, but it wouldn't hurt to discuss it on a high level.

In a debate, the two (or more) sides advance arguments. The arguments, unless truly ludicrous, merit some rebuttal, and some kinds of appeal are more persuasive than others. I see a little of that in this thread. A little. But what I haven't seen anyone TOUCH is to seriously address this:

Why define planet at all?

There is a "countermove" which goes something like:

"Because as scientists, we must provide order to an otherwise chaotic universe. It allows us to agree upon terms when we discuss them, which is a basis of all discussion."

OK, counter-counter-move is:

"This only makes sense when the categories themselves make sense. "Prime number" and "composite number" truly are all-encompassing and mutually exclusive for the natural numbers greater than 1. But "planet", we are learning, is not such a category! And scientists deal with many such categories already. "River" is a great example. Serious journal articles are written on serious research on the hydrodynamics and biomes of rivers without any rigid definition discriminating between rivers and streams. We once thought "planet" was amenable to a rigid formal definition but the facts have consistently led us to the opposite conclusion, that it is like "river", a you-know-it-when-you-see-it category."

And I've found it VERY frustrating that no one has a counter-counter-counter-move to this, no one attempts one, but just goes on assuming that they can tinker with the definition with one hack or another and of course there has to be such a definition.

I think the definition itself (not any one specific definition, but the idea of having one) has become like a toy that every child in the room wants in his or her own hand, and the idea of there being no formal definition threatens each person's personal ambition to have influence on the definition, so it is being waved off without a shred of rational consideration.

If someone has a counter-counter-counter-move along these lines, I would love to have some serious discussion with them. If simply ignoring this line, or repeating step #2 endlessly (we've moved past it... it's time for step #4) is all anyone has, I think they've stopped being a serious discussant of this topic, regardless of credentials.

Posted by: David Oct 4 2006, 08:44 AM

I intend to stop using the word "planet" altogether, except in historical (pre-2006) contexts, and start using the word "world" instead, for which I will have my own, highly idiosyncratic, inconsistent, and fluctuating definition. I haven't yet decided what it will be, but it will probably combine rotundity (not sphericity), (potential) possession of an atmosphere, (potential) possession of moons, a low boredom rating, and possession of a cool name in ratios yet to be determined.

Posted by: PhilCo126 Jan 26 2007, 05:32 PM

Well, I guess the fight continues:

http://www.plutoisaplanet.org/

The Great Pluto Debate!

Location: Clay Center Lecture Hall
Date: Sunday, February 4th, 2:00 - 3:00 pm

Special Lecture Series Event: In partnership with the Society for the Preservation of Pluto as a Planet (SP3), on the birthdate of Pluto discoverer Clyde Tombaugh, February 4th, the Clay Center Observatory will hold a special "Pluto Multimedia Show and Friendly Debate."

Free admission. Limited seating!

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 26 2007, 10:14 PM

As for names, I've always liked 'Planetoid' - and 'Worldlet' is quite poetic, implying as it does that such a body might grow up one day to become a fully fledged wossisname!


Bob Shaw

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jan 26 2007, 11:06 PM

I really like "planetoid" too, but Alan Stern thinks it's too diminutive.

I guess we'll have a better idea of what taxonomy to use once we can get real details on extra-solar planets, but there do seem to be some obvious break points that merit some recognition. e.g.

1) Star (big enough to fuse hydrogen)
2) Jovian Planetoid (big enough to have a hydrogen atmosphere)
3) Terrestrial Planetoid (big enough to be round)
4) Asteroid (not big enough to be round)

You could divide 3 and 4 between "made out of rock" and "made out of ice".

Then you could have separate categories for graviational/associational properties. e.g.

1) Independent Planetoid (dominates it's region of space).
2) Twin Planetoid (has a companion at least 1/25th its mass but not more more than 25x).
3) Bound Planetoid (forced into some sort of orbital resonance with a larger planetoid).
4) Satellite Planetoid (directly orbits a larger planetoid).

One could play around with the definition of "dominates"; there might also be value in distinguishing planetoidsin circular orbits above the equator of the star (as having formed from the accretion disk) from planetoids in tilted, elliptical orbits (as having formed separately from the original nebula). Some term to differentiate airless planetoids from those with atmospheres might also make sense.

The general idea, though, is that a richer taxonomy might be well worthwhile, and it's probably easier to get there if we use a term like "planetoid" rather than "planet."

--Greg

Posted by: JRehling Jan 26 2007, 11:18 PM

I think the species we already know about defy the notion of a biological-style taxonomy, even a shallower one.

Size, composition, orbital-clearing, nature of the atmosphere, and most other attributes are going to be freely cross-correlated to a considerable extent. There will be massive worlds that haven't cleared their orbits, there are going to be massive (hot) worlds with no atmosphere, tiny worlds that have ended up spherical, etc. There'll be a worlds representing the full range of hydrogen as an atmospheric component.

I think the exercise will prove to be rather like looking at an employee data base and searching for a way to relate salary, gender, and department. In the final analysis, you just end up with a bunch of metrics and you note how individuals measure according to each metric.

That might be what it takes to get us to discard the bogus categories in our solar system wherein nine data points happen to spell out some perceived categories but don't do so ontologically and certainly won't as more data comes in.

The stuckness that has to break is the notion that such categories have a service to play even when the universe provides no such categories. Larger KBOs may break the logjam there in the short run, but extrasolar discoveries will end up doing so in the long run.

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 27 2007, 12:01 AM

I think you're quite correct - the trouble is that all the physical sciences have at some level a degree of 'butterfly-collecting' about them, and sciences where observations of classes of objects are paramount are more prone than any to the counting of angels upon the heads of pins. Our Solar System, and the universe in general, simply isn't a place which follows 'our' rules, and we should hardly be surprised when we find that imposed rules are futile.

The good thing about all this fuss regarding Pluto is that it's been 'interesting' enough to gain the attention of the general public; the bad news is that it's probably reinforced their preconceptions regarding astronomers (and all other scientists).

Poor old Alan Stern; he starts off with mission to the last planet, and just as it all comes together it's turned into just another asteroid survey (yawn). Well, it's still a planet to *me*, Alan, so there!


Bob Shaw

Posted by: laurele Jan 27 2007, 03:38 AM

Pluto is still a planet to a lot of people. I'm waiting to hear more about Dr. Stern's conference of 1,000 astronomers later this year, which he is convening to address the issue. That conference is likely to bring this full circle. New Horizons may very well end up once again being a mission to a planet though not necessarily to "the last planet" in our solar system.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jan 28 2007, 02:45 AM

It seems odd to me to claim that the universe has no pattern in it. For example, it's not true that we'll find small planets with hydrogen atmospheres, nor massive ones that failed to clear their orbits, and I think it quite unlikely that we'll find massive but airless worlds. Where we do find patterns we don't expect (e.g. an all-water planet), then we'll learn something. But it's hard to see things that violate the expected pattern if there is no expected pattern at all.

Posted by: nprev Jan 28 2007, 09:34 AM

Oh, there's a pattern for sure: things in nature exist along a continuum rather than in discrete categories (except for subatomic particles, which do seem to be distinctive entities with fixed properties). Therefore, the term "planet" cannot be anything other than a subjective reference concept, and it's probably better to use it in historical/cultural contexts rather than as a scientific descriptor.

[EDIT] Extending this line of thought, my argument is that Pluto is indeed a planet...but it's the LAST planet unless Nemesis or some other major body exists (unlikely)...anything else out there is a KBO, including Eris. The historical age of solar planet discovery is over.

Posted by: alan Feb 3 2007, 09:37 PM

A quote from an article by David Jewitt & Jane X. Luu in Dædalus

http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/faculty/jewitt/papers/2007/JL07.pdf

Posted by: Alan Stern Feb 3 2007, 11:49 PM

What utter nonsense from Jewitt & Luu. They know that Lenard suggested in 1930, no less, that
Pluto was one of a larger population out there. They also know that people did do searches for both
planets and planetoids, all through from the 30s to the 70s (ending with Kowal's survey that found
the first Centaur, 2060 Chiron).

J&L also don't seem to recognize that Pluto's discovery foretold not just the KB but also an important
new class of planets- dwarf planets.

Posted by: David Feb 4 2007, 02:27 AM

I'm very surprised to hear that Pluto was considered "the last planet". I did not live at the time Pluto was discovered, but my impression was that as soon as Pluto was discovered, the hunt was on for "the tenth planet" -- people wanted to find additional planets out there. Certainly, by my childhood (several decades ago now), the possibility of finding a tenth planet was much discussed.

Having spent much of my life anticipating the discovery of a "tenth planet" (only to be repeatedly disappointed), I was very excited by the discovery of Eris; and much let down to have it ruled "not a planet" by virtue of semantic legerdemain. That is an emotional rather than a scientific reaction; but in a dispute so largely devoid of scientific criteria, I see no reason why it should not be taken into account.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Feb 4 2007, 08:47 PM

I was a freshman at Caltech in 1977 when Kowal announced the discovery of a "tenth planet in our solar system." As with Eris, I remember that there was a big debate over what to call it -- too small to really be a planet, but in the wrong place to be an asteroid, so for a long time it was just called "Kowal's Object."

What really sticks in MY mind is that around Spring 1978 I asked a Senior Astronomy student if they'd ever decided what Kowal's Object was. He told me "I think Kowal's object is to be famous for nothing." On a more serious note, he's the one who sold me on the term "planetoid."

So somewhere around Summer of 1978 (I think it was), when they discovered Charon, anyone could use freshman physics to show that Pluto was a good bit smaller than the moon. At that point, I thought "oh well -- it looks like Pluto isn't a planet after all -- just like Chiron."

At that point in the 70s, it seemed like everything else had gone wrong, so this might have been an easier sell back then. :-)

Anyway, for what it's worth, I'm personally just as excited to see what the "King of the Kuiper Belt" looks like as I ever was to see the "Last Planet."

--Greg

Posted by: Alan Stern Feb 4 2007, 09:27 PM

Greg,

The problem with declassifying Pluto and other ice dwarf planets is that there is no salient
characteristic that these bodies lack that the larger planets have. Like stars and galaxies,
like many species, etc. etc., planets include dwarfs. Dynamical criteria aren't about the
bodies themselves, so much as they are about where the bodies are, so you end up
with nonsense like Earth and Jupiter not being planets were they simply far enough from
the Sun in the IAU definition. These two factors are the central reasons why so many
people are ust walking on the IAU definition.

-Alan

Posted by: marsbug Feb 4 2007, 11:24 PM

Would that line of thought lead to a continuos scale of non luminous bodies , from grains of space dust to brown dwarfs, after the style of the Hertzsprung-Russel diagram for classifieyng stars?
Edit: I don't know what the scale(s) would measure, although mass is clearly the most obvious choice, but that would put the term planet into the proper context, and make the term valid for pluto, as it has the historical and cultural significance of the other eight.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Feb 5 2007, 11:48 PM

Alan: I know. I actually liked the cleanness of your "hydrostatic equilibrium" definition, but I thought you guys lost the moral high ground when you excluded large planetary satellites, such as Ganymede.

I do think location matters in some ways; we don't appear to get ice planets close to the sun, nor rocky ones far from it. Also, without their neighbors pulling on them, don't think Enceledus or Europa would have liquid water.

Maybe the real problem is we just can't study enough planets yet to do a good job of seeing the proper categories. I wonder if we'll ever be able to detect dwarf planets orbiting other stars . . .

--Greg

Posted by: Alan Stern Feb 6 2007, 12:19 AM

Alan: I know. I actually liked the cleanness of your "hydrostatic equilibrium" definition, but I thought you guys lost the moral high ground when you excluded large planetary satellites, such as Ganymede.

> Greg, I never said that! I have always contended planets can orbit other planets, just
as stars can orbit other stars and galaxies can orbit other galaxies.

I do think location matters in some ways; we don't appear to get ice planets close to the sun, nor rocky ones far from it. Also, without their neighbors pulling on them, don't think Enceledus or Europa would have liquid water.

> Yes, but this is only about planet *types*-- not the root issue of planethood.

Maybe the real problem is we just can't study enough planets yet to do a good job of seeing the proper categories. I wonder if we'll ever be able to detect dwarf planets orbiting other stars . . .

> That is for sure but in our solar system, we do see the pattern: small planets dominate
the planetary census.

Posted by: Alan Stern Feb 6 2007, 12:29 AM

And this news note from the front:

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:12:50 -0500
From: "Cheng, Andy"
...
Cc: "EXT Stern, Alan"
Subject: FW: Clay Center Pluto Program
Parts/Attachments:
1.1 OK ~218 lines Text
1.2 Shown ~390 lines Text
2 OK 241 KB Application, "Great Pluto Debate format.pdf"
----------------------------------------

FYI -- I participated in this event on Feb 4 (Super Bowl Sunday).

Attendance was about 200 people. A vote was taken at the end by show of hands, and our side (Pluto
is and should be a planet) appeared to be the winner. Owen Gingerich was the moderator, Kelly
Beatty announced that he was neutral, and the other side was led by Brian Marsden and Gareth
Williams. (An organizer) said that he changed his mind (to our side) after the debate.

Cheers, Andy

_____________

Posted by: nprev Feb 6 2007, 01:33 AM

I too changed my vote for Pluto as a planet, but purely within the historical context as described in a previous post...Pluto should be the last planet.

What I think will probably happen over the next few decades is that we'll find numerous Pluto (or even Mars)-sized or better bodies quite far out...maybe still within the Oort Cloud, maybe not. In any case, when we're talking objects with solar orbits measured in tens of thousands of years or even much, much more, we enter a situation similar to the irregular outer satellites of gas giants: how stable are these orbits over the lifetime of the Solar System? Their gravitational association with the Sun is tenuous at best, possibly could be easily disturbed by close stellar approaches over geological time, and it will almost be certainly questionable whether some of them formed from the original solar nebula at all.

True, this issue (if it's valid) probably will not arise for some time. Still, it's worth thinking about in terms of this particular debate.

Posted by: mars loon Feb 6 2007, 02:00 AM

More news from the Pro Pluto front:

I have been collecting hundreds and hundreds of signatures on a petition to "Save Pluto as Planet" at all of my astronomy outreach lectures to groups ranging from astronomy clubs to schools. There is no shortage of people willing to sign, and there is no shortage of dissapointment at this short sighted ruling by a very narrow band within the IAU

The sentiment is overwhelmingly Pro Pluto

and here is a link to an article about the Clay Center Pluto Program sent to me by an attendee:
http://boston.metro.us/metro/local/article/Crusading_for_Pluto/6796.html

and a few excerpts below.

ken

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Crusading for Pluto
by tony lee / metro boston

FEB 5, 2007

BROOKLINE: Nearly six months after it was thrust from planetary status, Pluto remains a hot topic among experts, some of whom gathered yesterday at the Clay Center Observatory as part of International Save Pluto Day.

It’s clear that the struggle surrounding the icy mass is far from finished.

“I feel strongly that Pluto should remain a planet for historical and cultural reasons,” said Andrew Chang, of the New Horizons Mission to Pluto, which should send back the first data ever received from Pluto in 2015.

Since its discovery in 1930 by Clyde Tombaugh — who would have turned 101 yesterday — until last August, Pluto stood as the last and smallest of the nine planets.

A ruling by the International Astronomical Union (IAU) determined that an object cannot be a planet if it has not cleared its orbit of all other objects, which Pluto has not.

“I have basically always felt that Pluto was the oddball,” said Gareth Williams, associate director of the Minor Planet Center and one of the dissenters on yesterday’s board.

When asked by debate moderator Owen Gingerich, Harvard professor emeritus of astronomy, of their opinion on the matter, the crowd of nearly 200 was largely in favor of Pluto remaining a planet.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Feb 6 2007, 10:22 PM

Alan: Sorry about that. I guess I identified you too closely with the original IAU 12-planet proposal. Declaring the Moon to be a planet is apt to be controversial, but it doesn't bother me from a scientific perspective. (Assuming a computer guy is entitled to have a scientific perspective.) :-)

My whole reason for wanting to use "planetoid" for the root term was the belief that it just won't be possible to get people to call the moon a "planet."

Thinking about your comment on planet types, it occurs to me that there's another issue with using "dwarf planet" to identify a round body that never got big enough to finish sucking down its bit of the accretion disk: since we haven't studied any of them closely yet, we don't really know if that's an important difference.

Contrast that with the other three obvious (to me) planet types: Gas Giant, Rocky, and Icy. Will Ceres really be different enough from the Moon or Pluto different enough from (say) Europa that we should give them their own type? I'd be surprised if they had much similarity to each other, that's for sure.

I suppose this argument has already been raised (that it's premature to define "dwarf planet"), but I don't remember having seen it.

On the bright side, it does seem we'll be getting a good look at both Ceres and Pluto in the next decade -- and unless I miss my guess, we'll still be arguing about it. :-)

--Greg

Posted by: JRehling Feb 7 2007, 06:46 PM

Therein lies the 800-lb-gorilla: These terms are not scientific.

The Moon is an extreme case to be sure in terms of its salience in the popular consciousness, but it is not an extreme case in terms of superordinate classification. The average citizen wouldn't care what group the Moon were placed in for scientific purposes -- aside from the certainty that any reclassification thereof would earn and by now deserve a snort of public derision since the scientists have ceded any gravitas in these matters.

The Moon stands in relation to planets much as the thumb does to fingers. In English, Spanish, German, and I'm certain other languages, the issue of whether or not the thumb is a finger is often baubled about. In Spanish, they actually have one word for toe and finger, but a different word for thumb. Obviously, there's no medical sense in the issue. No orthopedic surgeon would pause before a diagnosis to consider the philosophical matter of whether or not the thumb is a finger. How a language chooses to classify that digit is entirely arbitrary. Doctors could have a panel discussion on the matter and bring it to a vote, but there's simply no medical need. Amateur ontologists age 3-83 still "debate" the "issue".

The question in my mind is when astronomers will reach the level of wisdom regarding "planet" that doctors have regarding "finger" and "thumb" and hydrologists have regarding "stream" and "river". The word is simply not in their territory, nor need it be.

That there are no small icy bodies very near stars is simply obvious. That only very large bodies can retain hydrogen is simply obvious. That tiny bodies do not deflect other ones from their orbits is simply obvious. There is no meat here for the basis of a science of classification. We have a couple of defining scales regarding the nature of bodies, with mass being one of the most important and temperature being somewhat less important. These are attributes we measure on scales, and the attributes have consequences on scales, but only generally speaking. That's not a scientific system of classification.

Planet is a folk concept for folk ideas. Originally, a starlike dot of light that moved over time. Then a nonluminous body of considerable size in our solar system. Now with our discoveries of recent years, we know it is ready to be retired permanently from any notion of scientific use and left to the public, who have some affection for it. Let it go, along with thumb and stream and meadow. When a legitimate need for a scientific category arises (white dwarf versus neutron star versus black hole, for example), know the difference.

Posted by: nprev Feb 8 2007, 02:14 AM

Very, very well said, JR, and for me that was the capstone post of this debate...well done!