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Is Europa really the "highest priority" of the community?, Cleave said it was at LPSC?
mcaplinger
post Mar 15 2006, 05:50 PM
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From Emily's LPSC blog: "Bob Pappalardo would not sit down until he got Cleave to acknowledge that Europa is the consensus highest priority of the planetary science community."

Cleave was obviously poorly prepared for this session, but I don't see that this acknowledgement is either meaningful or particularly accurate. If Europa were the "highest priority" of the PS community as a whole, then one might wonder why we were spending all this money on Mars. I could easily imagine that Europa is the highest priority of the outer planets community, but frankly I was surprised when Europa Orbiter appeared in the '07 budget (presumably the result of some serious lobbying on someone's part.) It was pretty obvious to me then that there would be no money for it, especially in the aftermath of JPL running the old EO project into the ground with cost overruns and engineering upscopes. (And JIMO is best forgotten.)

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be involved with a Europa mission (we did what I think was a good proposal design for EO) but I don't see either the money or the political support being there in the near term. I know it's frustrating, but one has to be realistic, and it might help to avoid the aura of entitlement that I perceive is building in some parts of the community (not referring to you, Bob). Of course, I am just a lowly engineer.


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Guest_BruceMoomaw_*
post Mar 15 2006, 10:43 PM
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Not only did the 2002 Decadal Survey rank Europa as the highest-priority target for a large non-Mars planetary mission, but OPAG has just officially ranked it above Titan ( http://www.lpi.usra.edu/opag/oct_05_meetin...ting_report.pdf '. pg 2. OPAG officially ranks Titan second, above Neptune.) Lunine, in short, was engaged in trouble-making, and Pappalardo was entirely justified in doing what he did. (Mars is in an entirely separate category all by itself -- it's NASA's official Holy of Holies, never to be questioned on any ground.)

The question at this point is whether a combined Titan-Enceladus mission is possible, and whether this really might upend the current order.
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elakdawalla
post Mar 15 2006, 11:22 PM
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QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 15 2006, 02:43 PM) *
Not only did the 2002 Decadal Survey rank Europa as the highest-priority target for a large non-Mars planetary mission, but OPAG has just officially ranked it above Titan ( http://www.lpi.usra.edu/opag/oct_05_meetin...ting_report.pdf '. pg 2. OPAG officially ranks Titan second, above Neptune.) Lunine, in short, was engaged in trouble-making, and Pappalardo was entirely justified to do what he did. (Mars is in an entirely separate category all by itself -- it's NASA's official Holy of Holies, never to be questioned on any ground.)

The question at this point is whether a combined Titan-Enceladus mission is possible, and whether this really might upend the current order.

The strange thing is that Lunine didn't seem to think he was trouble-making, and just as Cleave doesn't understand why the scientists are angry, Lunine doesn't understand why the outer planets folks are feeling threatened by his public suggestion (though the Leonard David article should answer that).

People here seem to be pretty dismissive of the possibility of a combined Titan-Enceladus mission but of course no one is actually presenting either a suggestion for or rebuttal of such a possibility at any of the sessions.

What most of the outer planets folks are saying about Titan is that the surface should not be explored until it is well mapped from orbit. They are asking themselves whether a New Frontiers mission couldl be sent to Titan with only two instruments: a radar mapper capable of 100-meter resolution and a 2-micron imager. These are all geologists talking though, and I think that the mission would be more interesting to more people with a third instrument that could do a thorough map of the atmosphere, such as a limb sounder, to map hazes, clouds, etc. (I'm a new fan of limb sounders now that we're doing public outreach on the Mars Climate Sounder.) But of course I don't have a clue how much mass/complexity that would add to the simple orbiter that the outer planets folks are talking about.

--Emily


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Guest_AlexBlackwell_*
post Mar 15 2006, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 15 2006, 11:22 PM) *
What most of the outer planets folks are saying about Titan is that the surface should not be explored until it is well mapped from orbit. They are asking themselves whether a New Frontiers mission could be sent to Titan with only two instruments: a radar mapper capable of 100-meter resolution and a 2-micron imager.

So let me get this straight: the "outer planets folks" are pondering a New Frontier-class mission that wasn't even recommended in the Decadal Survey (i.e., the Titan concept you note above) while a subset of them are invoking the same Decadal Survey that lists Europa as the highest priority non-Mars Flagship-class target?
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elakdawalla
post Mar 16 2006, 01:46 AM
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QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 15 2006, 03:56 PM) *
So let me get this straight: the "outer planets folks" are pondering a New Frontier-class mission that wasn't even recommended in the Decadal Survey (i.e., the Titan concept you note above) while a subset of them are invoking the same Decadal Survey that lists Europa as the highest priority non-Mars Flagship-class target?

Sure. Such a mission would never get done this decade, so it's not incompatible with their citing the decadal survey. (No follow-on mission to Titan should really even be started until Cassini is done anyway, unless it lasts more than double its design lifetime.) Their argument is that this kind of mission should at least be talked about before they talk about landing on Titan (also not mentioned in the decadal survey), which is what Lunine was arguing for.

--Emily


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Posts in this topic
- mcaplinger   Is Europa really the "highest priority" of the community?   Mar 15 2006, 05:50 PM
- - elakdawalla   That was slightly sloppy reporting on my part, and...   Mar 15 2006, 07:19 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 15 2006, 07:19 P...   Mar 15 2006, 07:43 PM
|- - Marz   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 15 2006, 01:19 P...   Mar 15 2006, 08:04 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 15 2006, 07:19 P...   Mar 16 2006, 04:51 AM
- - djellison   If you're in your 20's - you have Cassini ...   Mar 15 2006, 07:29 PM
|- - paxdan   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 15 2006, 07:29 PM)...   Mar 15 2006, 07:34 PM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (paxdan @ Mar 15 2006, 07:34 PM) On...   Mar 15 2006, 07:53 PM
|- - gpurcell   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 15 2006, 07:29 PM)...   Mar 16 2006, 01:57 PM
||- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (gpurcell @ Mar 16 2006, 08:57 AM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 02:27 PM
|||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Mar 16 2006, 02:27 P...   Mar 16 2006, 04:12 PM
|||- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 16 2006, 11:12...   Mar 16 2006, 05:36 PM
|||- - tedstryk   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Mar 16 2006, 05:36 P...   Mar 16 2006, 09:15 PM
||- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (gpurcell @ Mar 16 2006, 05:57 AM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 02:57 PM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (gpurcell @ Mar 16 2006, 01:57 PM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 04:26 PM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 16 2006, 04:26 PM)...   Mar 16 2006, 04:33 PM
||- - tedstryk   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 16 2006, 04:26 PM)...   Mar 16 2006, 05:28 PM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Mar 16 2006, 05:28 PM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 05:33 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 15 2006, 07:29 PM)...   Mar 16 2006, 04:22 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Mar 16 2006, 08:22 AM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 04:46 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (JRehling @ Mar 16 2006, 04:46 PM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 04:47 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (JRehling @ Mar 16 2006, 11:46 AM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 05:12 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 15 2006, 05:50 PM...   Mar 15 2006, 07:31 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Not only did the 2002 Decadal Survey rank Europa a...   Mar 15 2006, 10:43 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 15 2006, 10:43 P...   Mar 15 2006, 10:58 PM
|- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 15 2006, 02:43 P...   Mar 15 2006, 11:22 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 15 2006, 11:22 P...   Mar 15 2006, 11:56 PM
||- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 15 2006, 03:56...   Mar 16 2006, 01:46 AM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 16 2006, 01:46 A...   Mar 16 2006, 01:53 AM
||- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 15 2006, 05:53...   Mar 16 2006, 01:57 AM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 16 2006, 01:57 A...   Mar 16 2006, 02:05 AM
||- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 15 2006, 06:05...   Mar 16 2006, 02:27 AM
|- - JRehling   I'm profoundly disturbed by the notion that th...   Mar 16 2006, 01:26 AM
- - nprev   Sad to see all this intramural political wrangling...   Mar 16 2006, 12:45 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 15 2006, 05:50 PM...   Mar 16 2006, 02:14 AM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 15 2006, 08:14 P...   Mar 18 2006, 04:50 PM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 18 2006, 04:50 PM) ...   Mar 19 2006, 12:54 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Regarding Titan exploration: the PS community curr...   Mar 16 2006, 03:00 AM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 15 2006, 08:00 P...   Mar 16 2006, 04:58 AM
- - remcook   That's pretty depressing, especially if you wa...   Mar 16 2006, 03:37 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   Andrew Lawler has an excellent article ("A Sp...   Mar 16 2006, 09:31 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Yeah, before we start sniffling too much about our...   Mar 17 2006, 04:33 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 17 2006, 04:33 A...   Mar 17 2006, 08:26 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 17 2006, 08:26 AM) ...   Mar 17 2006, 03:40 PM
||- - mchan   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Mar 17 2006, 07:40 AM) ...   Mar 18 2006, 04:55 AM
||- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (mchan @ Mar 18 2006, 04:55 AM) Ros...   Mar 18 2006, 01:39 PM
||- - Tom Tamlyn   Emily Lakdawalla's latest blog entry has a cha...   Mar 18 2006, 04:57 PM
||- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (Tom Tamlyn @ Mar 18 2006, 04:57 PM...   Mar 19 2006, 01:22 AM
|||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 19 2006, 01:22 A...   Mar 20 2006, 05:58 PM
||- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Tom Tamlyn @ Mar 18 2006, 08:57 AM...   Mar 19 2006, 09:07 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   An improved version of the list: Active interpla...   Mar 18 2006, 05:35 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Though it has not been heard from since 2000, Pion...   Mar 18 2006, 05:49 PM
- - edstrick   As a boy, my dad (who worked as a quality control ...   Mar 17 2006, 09:52 AM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (edstrick @ Mar 17 2006, 04:52 AM) ...   Mar 17 2006, 01:06 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   Mark Peplow has an update in his LPSC blog.   Mar 18 2006, 12:47 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 17 2006, 04:47...   Mar 18 2006, 01:40 AM
- - elakdawalla   Aw, shucks, guys... I think only very few dieha...   Mar 19 2006, 06:42 AM
- - Mariner9   This whole situation reminds me a lot of the early...   Mar 19 2006, 08:53 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (Mariner9 @ Mar 19 2006, 08:53 PM) ...   Mar 20 2006, 10:31 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (Stephen @ Mar 20 2006, 11:31 AM) B...   Mar 20 2006, 01:15 PM
|- - JamesFox   QUOTE (Stephen @ Mar 20 2006, 05:31 AM) B...   Mar 20 2006, 01:29 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   There are other problems with running small missio...   Mar 20 2006, 01:42 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 19 2006, 05:42 P...   Mar 20 2006, 03:49 PM
- - djellison   I wonder what might be feasable using the Juno pla...   Mar 20 2006, 04:02 PM
- - Mariner9   Is one Europa orbiter more cost effective than 3 l...   Mar 20 2006, 04:29 PM
- - Mariner9   One last point. Viking was scaled down from o...   Mar 20 2006, 04:45 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   This is turning into an awfully interesting debate...   Mar 20 2006, 06:19 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 06:19 P...   Mar 20 2006, 09:10 PM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 20 2006, 09:10...   Mar 20 2006, 10:01 PM
||- - JRehling   This has been insightful. Europa currently has la...   Mar 20 2006, 10:32 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 06:19 P...   Mar 21 2006, 12:41 AM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (Stephen @ Mar 21 2006, 12:41 AM) W...   Mar 21 2006, 12:48 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   I very much doubt it could transmit them fast enou...   Mar 21 2006, 02:49 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   This thing is apparently also quite a wide-angle c...   Mar 21 2006, 03:00 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 07:00 P...   Mar 21 2006, 03:32 AM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (JRehling @ Mar 21 2006, 03:32 AM) ...   Mar 21 2006, 06:35 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Looks like my whole idea was another pipe dream. ...   Mar 21 2006, 03:43 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 21 2006, 03:43 A...   Mar 21 2006, 05:56 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   John Rehling's idea for Europa Orbiter just mi...   Mar 21 2006, 03:53 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   While I'm on the subject of Europa Orbiter and...   Mar 21 2006, 04:03 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 08:03 P...   Mar 21 2006, 04:07 AM
||- - JRehling   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 20 2006, 08:07 PM...   Mar 21 2006, 08:01 AM
|- - mchan   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 08:03 P...   Mar 21 2006, 04:34 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Well, that's what they kept assuring all of us...   Mar 21 2006, 04:34 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 08:34 P...   Mar 21 2006, 04:46 AM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 21 2006, 04:46 AM...   Mar 21 2006, 10:03 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 21 2006, 02:03 P...   Mar 22 2006, 12:21 AM
- - dvandorn   Oh, gee -- that reminds me of an sf story I once r...   Mar 21 2006, 08:10 AM
- - edstrick   I last tested vaccuum tubes in the early 90's,...   Mar 21 2006, 09:02 AM
- - djellison   I think JUNO might actually do harm for the 'E...   Mar 21 2006, 07:44 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 21 2006, 07:44 PM)...   Mar 21 2006, 08:03 PM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 21 2006, 08:03...   Mar 21 2006, 10:36 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 21 2006, 02:36 P...   Mar 21 2006, 10:54 PM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (JRehling @ Mar 21 2006, 10:54 PM) ...   Mar 22 2006, 12:16 AM
- - JamesFox   What I was thinking of myself, is pretty much a Ne...   Mar 21 2006, 11:17 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (JamesFox @ Mar 21 2006, 03:17 PM) ...   Mar 21 2006, 11:33 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   It would take a LOT bigger retrorocket. By the ...   Mar 22 2006, 12:06 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 21 2006, 04:06 P...   Mar 22 2006, 12:12 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Regarding other ideas: two of the second-tier NF m...   Mar 22 2006, 12:31 AM
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