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Posted by: Sunspot Sep 23 2005, 03:05 PM

Looking at the Nasa Watch website http://www.nasawatch.com/, it mentions a flyby of Mars by Stardust .

Posted by: djellison Sep 23 2005, 03:24 PM

Wonder if they'll do any imaging?

As a heads up to Bjorn - img2png doesnt like Stardust imagery - it just goes straight to a buffer overrun

Doug

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 23 2005, 03:36 PM

The timeline on the website has an Earth Return date of Jan 15, 2006. That can't be correct can it? Mars to Earth in under 4 months?

Posted by: RNeuhaus Sep 23 2005, 03:44 PM

It is reasonable. The V-Delta of Earth is higher than the ones of Mars. So the spaceship going to Earth is faster than to Mars since the Earth velocity around the sun is faster than Mars.

Rodolfo

Posted by: um3k Sep 23 2005, 03:45 PM

Well, since it is flying by Mars it has a higher velocity than it would if it started from Mars (in which case the aphelion* would just barely touch Mars' orbit). So, I'd say yes, it is probably correct.

*Furthest distance from sun.

Posted by: tedstryk Sep 23 2005, 03:46 PM

I don't think they will do any imagery. First off, with its stuck filter wheel and the equivalent of a wide angle Cassini camera, I don't think it would see much of scientific interest from a distance. But the stated reason that they passed up a few Annefrank-like flybys (and that I am guessing would apply here too) is that now that it has its samples, it is too risky to take chances with maneuvering it to aim cameras - it isn't worth taking any chances that could lead to the loss of the mission before earth arrival.

Posted by: maycm Sep 23 2005, 03:54 PM

To take this slightly off topic, I noticed mention that the Aerogel used on stardust was also used on Pathfinder.

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/tech/aerogel.html


Does anyone know why?

Posted by: helvick Sep 23 2005, 04:06 PM

Yep - Insulation on Sojourner.

http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/msad08jul97_2.htm

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 23 2005, 07:14 PM

The MER Warm Electronics Boxes (i.e. the bodies) are also packed with aerogel. Very good insulation!

Emily

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Sep 23 2005, 08:10 PM

Believe me, this Mars flyby is going to be VERY long range. That chart still allows it to occur at a distance of several million km, and I certainly have never heard a single peep suggesting that they had any observations planned at all.

Posted by: edstrick Sep 24 2005, 07:26 AM

ElkGroveDan: "The timeline on the website has an Earth Return date of Jan 15, 2006. That can't be correct can it? Mars to Earth in under 4 months? "

Yes. Mariners 6 and 7 made it to Mars in something like 5 months. They were "light" for the Atlas Centaur booster which one opposition later launched the much heavier Mariner 9 orbiter. The excess capacity was used to decrease time to Mars and get an encounter closer to Earth, aiding communications. The 2 vehicles got a mild gravity assist and aphelion was in or at the inner edge of the asteroid belt. Farthest from the sun of a solar powered spacecraft until relatively recently

Posted by: Decepticon Sep 24 2005, 11:35 AM

After SD passes buy for delivery, what's next for this probe? Any more encounters?

Posted by: djellison Sep 24 2005, 12:27 PM

I've read that it's basically going to be pretty much out of fuel, the camera's not too great, so it'll probably get switched off.

Doug

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Sep 25 2005, 08:14 PM

That's what Donald Brownlee told me several years ago -- unfortunately Stardust, unlike Deep Impact, doesn't have an extended warranty...

Posted by: Rakhir Nov 30 2005, 08:33 AM

An update about stardust return :
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/research/exploringtheuniverse/stardust.html

Another one about the opening of the sample canister :
http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/science/feature002.html

It is 46 days from now.

Rakhir

Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Nov 30 2005, 04:17 PM

In the report, under the heading "Watching the Stardust re-entry", it states "Viewing will not be as good at sites east of Carlin where the craft will be seen from behind." I'm a little confused here. Don't they really mean sites to the west of Carlin?

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Dec 1 2005, 12:37 AM

Yet another tidbit from the COMPLEX meeting that isn't in my "Astronomy" article: Andy Dantzler insisted that they are "absolutely" certain from their review that Stardust's parachute switches do not share the fatal flaw of those in Genesis. One can hope that he knows what he's talking about.

Posted by: The Messenger Dec 1 2005, 04:37 AM

Must be a typo, earlier in the article they state that the best viewing will be "From Carlin East into Utahhh...There is a natural warm spring lake on the Western edge of the UTTA (East of Carlin), an interesting place to dive in the middle of winter.

Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Dec 1 2005, 08:28 PM

Thanks. I'll be checking the weather reports soon before January 15th, and heading out for Utah/Nevada if clear skies look promising.

Posted by: RGClark Dec 20 2005, 06:50 PM

Deep Impact showed Comet Tempel I to contain carbonate and clay remember:

Comet’s minerals hint at liquid water.
18:47 08 September 2005
NewScientist.com news service
"The comet crashed into by NASA's Deep Impact spacecraft on 4 July 2005 contains material apparently formed by liquid water and not ice, according to new observations with the Spitzer Space Telescope.
"This could suggests the disc of gas and dust from which the solar system formed got mixed together billions of years ago, whisking matter from warm regions near the Sun outward – or that an unknown process may allow a layer of liquid water to exist beneath the dusty coatings on comets.
"Spitzer was one of the 80 or so telescopes trained on Comet 9P/Tempel 1 when it rammed into the 370-kilogram copper-tipped impactor sent into its path. A spectrometer on the telescope detected a mix of materials as they streamed off the comet, including crystallised silicates, clay and carbonates."
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7971&feedId=online-news_rss20

http://datacore.sciflicks.com/the_andromeda_strain/sounds/the_andromeda_strain_damn_fool.wav

http://datacore.sciflicks.com/the_andromeda_strain/sounds/the_andromeda_strain_wild_fire_lab.wav

http://datacore.sciflicks.com/the_andromeda_strain/sounds/the_andromeda_strain_spread.wav



- Bob Clark

Posted by: mars loon Dec 22 2005, 02:17 PM

The newly released and fact filled Stardust Sample Return Press Kit for Jan 2006 is here:

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/139890main_stardust-return.pdf

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 4 2006, 07:41 PM

John Bluck Jan. 4, 2006
NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif.
Phone: (650) 604-5026/9000

MEDIA ADVISORY: 06-01AR

NASA AIRCRAFT CREW TO OBSERVE INCOMING STARDUST SAMPLE CAPSULE

A NASA DC-8 aircraft will carry a team of scientists to observe the Stardust sample capsule as it enters Earth's atmosphere and flies to a landing in the Utah desert at 2 a.m. PST on Jan.15, 2006. The capsule is carrying comet dust that the Stardust spacecraft captured near comet Wild-2 (VILT-TWO) in January 2004.

News media are invited to apply to be one of the journalists who will ride on the NASA DC-8 aircraft on the 'Stardust observation rehearsal flights," Wednesday, Jan 11 from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. PST, and Thursday, Jan. 12, from 11:45 p.m. PST to Jan. 13, 3:30 a.m. PST. Journalists may also apply for one of a limited number of seats on the actual mission on Sunday, Jan. 15, 12:01 a.m. to 4 a.m. PST. Media tours of the aircraft will be offered on Wednesday, Jan. 11, from noon to 2 p.m. PST.

WHAT: Opportunity to fly aboard a NASA DC-8 aircraft to observe the Stardust space capsule as it enters Earth's atmosphere. For both flights, the DC-8 will depart from NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif., and return there.

WHEN: A tour of the DC-8 will be held on Wednesday, Jan. 11, from noon to 2 p.m. PST. Written requests to fly must be received no later than Jan. 9, and emailed to jbluck@mail.arc.nasa.gov and mmewhinney@mail.arc.nasa.gov. Stardust observation rehearsal flights will be held on Wednesday, Jan 11 from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. PST and Thursday, Jan. 12, from 11:45 p.m. to Jan. 13, 3:30 a.m. PST. The Stardust observation mission flight will take place the early morning of Sunday, Jan. 15, 2006. In your request, please note if your organization agrees to provide pool coverage, as seating is limited.

WHO: Interviews with NASA DC-8 mission project manager Dave Jordan, SETI Institute scientist and principal investigator Peter Jenniskens and other Stardust mission scientists and engineers.

WHERE: NASA Ames Research Center Hangar N-211. News media representatives who wish to attend the DC-8 tour should report to Ames' Visitor Badging Office, located at the Ames main gate. To reach Ames, take the Moffett Field exit off Highway 101 and drive east to the main gate and Visitor Badging Office. Special instructions will be issued to those journalists who are approved to fly on the DC-8.

JPL manages the Stardust mission for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver, developed and operates the spacecraft. JPL is a division of the California Institute of Technology. NASA's Johnson Space Center contributed to Stardust payload development, and the Johnson Space Center will curate the sample and support analysis and sample allocation.

For more information about the Stardust mission, see:

http://reentry.arc.nasa.gov

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 4 2006, 08:14 PM

RESEARCHERS AWAIT TREASURE FROM STARDUST'S EPIC JOURNEY
-------------------------------------------------------

Donald Brownlee's heart skipped a beat six years ago when the launch of
the Stardust spacecraft didn't happen as planned. The University of
Washington astronomy professor has experienced many other tense times
since the historic mission blasted off a day late, and its return to Earth
on Jan. 15 will be just one more white-knuckle moment.

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0601/03stardust/

Posted by: RNeuhaus Jan 5 2006, 08:59 PM

Stardust Mission website

Reentry conditions:

* Peak optical brightness: -7.8 magnitude (360-630 nm)
* Date: January 15, 2006 (night time)
* Time: nighttime (about 3:00 a.m. MDT, 2:00 a.m. PDT)
* Mass: 45.8 kg
* Diameter: 0.811 meter
* Speed: 12.9 km/s (at 135 km)
* Entry angle: 8 degrees
* Landing site: U.S. Air Force Utah Test and Training Range (UTTR)
* Heat-shield material: Phenol impregnated Carbon
* Sample return: comet P/Wild 2 dust

Sun and Moon (at Boise, Idaho - longitude W116.2, latitude N43.6):

Phase of the Moon on 15 January: waning gibbous with 98% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated. Full Moon on 14 January 2006 at 2:49 a.m. Mountain Standard Time.

* Begin civil twilight: 6:43 am. PDT (7:43 a.m Mountain Daylight Time)
* Sunrise: 7:15 a.m PDT, 8:15 a.m. MDT.
* Moonset: 8:27 a.m. PDT, 9:27 a.m. MDT
* Altitude of Moon at 2:00 a.m. PDT: 68.9 degrees.
* Azimuth of the Moon at 2:00 a.m. PDT: 190.8 degrees E of N.

drop test UTTR map

Little story: Stardust was launched on Feb. 7, 1999, and set off on three giant loops around the sun. It began collecting interstellar dust in 2000 and met Wild 2 (pronounced Vilt 2) on Jan. 2, 2004, when the spacecraft weathered a hailstorm of comet particles and snapped exceptional close-up photographs of the comet's surface. During its 4,608 billion-kilometers voyage Stardust made one pass by Earth to get a speed boost from the planet's gravity, and later staged a dress-rehearsal for the comet encounter when it maneuvered very close to Asteroid 5535 Annefrank.

The tensest moment other than the comet encounter came in November 2000, while the spacecraft was cruising along some 208 million kilometers from the sun (close to Mars -228 MK-). A huge solar flare, 100,000 times more energetic than usual, engulfed Stardust and its special digital cameras that help the spacecraft know where it is by viewing the stars and making comparisons with a comprehensive star chart stored in the onboard computer. The high-energy solar flare electrified pixels in the cameras, producing dots that the computer interpreted as stars. Suddenly the spacecraft did not know where it was and, in a preprogrammed act of self-preservation, it turned its solar panels toward the sun, losing communication with Earth.

Ground controllers finally found a faint signal and were able to contact Stardust and correct the problem. A little more than three years later the spacecraft finally met the target that scientists had been aiming for since 1974, when a close encounter with Jupiter altered Wild 2's orbit and brought it to the inner solar system. That made the mission feasible.

recopiled from the following URL: http://www.spacedaily.com/news/Stardust_Nears_End_Of_Epic_Journey.html

Hope the Stardust will came graceful to Earth after mastering its trip to space.

Rodolfo

Posted by: Marcel Jan 6 2006, 10:04 AM

Update:

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/news/status/060105.html

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 6 2006, 04:52 PM

OK I'm looking for advice here. I'm going to try to get a digital movie of this, as well as some stills to share with you all since I haven't had the time to participate here much beyond occasional jokes and wisecracks.

Do I stay here in Sacramento County where I'll see it at an elevation of 20 to 30 degrees depending on where I go for dark skies...or do I make the 2 hour drive in the middle of the night up I-5 to Mt. Shasta for a direct overhead view? Somewhere in between perhaps?

Posted by: RNeuhaus Jan 6 2006, 04:59 PM

ElkGroveDan: I would like to hear from your experiences in Sitiu. Let share with us about your early morning trip. I hope you won't miss any Red Bull !

Rodolfo

Posted by: djellison Jan 6 2006, 08:12 PM

FWIW - I look at the ISS whenever I can, and whilst a 90 degree elev gives the longest possible pass, it's awkward to look at. My favs are when the ISS passes at about 30 - 60 degrees, 45 being the sweet spot. It's a long pass, without being a neck-craner

Of course, something like 20 degrees is good if you have a clear horizon, as you can then do long-exposures that show the trail, with ground features to give a perspective to the whole thing. I'd say you're in a nice spot to get a nice view of it right where you are - just go and find some locally high ground if you can, with a clear nHorizon to the NW and NE so you can be sure to see as much of it as possible.

Doug

Posted by: Toma B Jan 6 2006, 08:55 PM

Good luck & clear skyes!!!

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 6 2006, 11:06 PM

I don't care much for Red Bull, so perhaps I'll try a shot of Lipovitan D in my Starbucks coffee.

Posted by: lyford Jan 6 2006, 11:07 PM

Be http://www.shastaavalanche.org/ And I think you will need a jacket...

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 6 2006, 11:59 PM

I suppose it's also a matter of local meteorology - if you're statistically likely to be clouded out, then you may yet catch a glow through the clouds if you're right underneath. Equally, if you tend to get lanes of cloud, then if you're more distant then you're more likely to see something as the vehicle traverses various windows through the obscuring wet and foggy.

Good luck!


Bob Shaw

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 7 2006, 12:40 AM

Thanks, I'll be several thousand feet below that level where it will be quite a bit warmer.

I think I'm going to take Doug's advice and find an open area where the 45 degree line crosses Interstate 5. It will allow me to better point my assorted cameras.

Posted by: jamescanvin Jan 7 2006, 01:42 AM

Good luck Dan.

I'm looking forward to your pics

James

Posted by: general Jan 7 2006, 05:25 PM

Volunteers wanted:

http://stardustathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/index.html

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html

Posted by: djellison Jan 7 2006, 05:48 PM

I'm having a go at that - HELL yes - chance to be co-author for resulting science papers is highly cool. I estimate it'll be 35,000 ish pictures between particles

Doug

Posted by: lyford Jan 7 2006, 07:17 PM

Well, still http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm ;-) These days, someone may think you are a http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/departments/newsroom/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000579441

Posted by: aharris Jan 9 2006, 04:20 AM

I am so there!!!!!!!!!! I'll get my extra sharp eyes on:

Thanks for posting the link!

Posted by: Rakhir Jan 9 2006, 08:13 AM

I am as well.
Actually, I already created a http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=1697 earlier about Stardust@Home.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 11 2006, 06:54 PM

Space Weather News for Jan. 11, 2006

http://spaceweather.com

FIREBALL ALERT: On Sunday morning, Jan. 15th, between approximately 1:56 and 1:59 a.m. PST (0956 - 0959 UT), a brilliant fireball will streak over northern California and Nevada. It's NASA's Stardust capsule, returning to Earth with samples of dust from Comet Wild 2. Observers along the flight path should have a marvelous view of this rare man-made meteor. Radio signals reflected from the capsule's ionized tail may be heard from a much wider area--hundreds to thousands of miles away.

Visit http://spaceweather.com for maps and observing tips.


INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION: The International Space Station is flying over the United States in mid-January during evening hours when it is easy to see.

Would you like a phone call to alert you when the station is about to appear over your home town? Sign up for SpaceWeather PHONE:

http://spaceweatherphone.com

Posted by: RNeuhaus Jan 11 2006, 07:52 PM

Stardust Live from JPL : Webcam

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/webcam.html

Rodolfo

Posted by: deglr6328 Jan 12 2006, 05:21 AM

I wonder if the Stardust@home has any audio background noise as you search.....Dust. Anybody? No?, Dust. Anybody? No?, Dust. Anybody? No?, Dust. Anybody? No?, Dust. Anybody? No? ...*clicks on dust particle* Dust is actually very low in fat, you can have as much dust as you like....Dust. Anybody? No?, Dust. Anybody? No?..............

Posted by: djellison Jan 12 2006, 08:23 AM

LMFAO - I hadnt thought of Ms. Door's w.r.t Dust My cousin-in-law ( is there such a thing?) does a SUPERB "Dust? Anybody? No? Dust?"

Doug

Posted by: Ames Jan 12 2006, 10:11 AM

I am sure there are a great many members here who will be totally unaware of "Little Britain".
If you are interested go to:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/littlebritain/characters/marjorie.shtml

It's far too complicated for me to explain, and wouldn't be remotely funny.

Nick
(I want That one!)

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 12 2006, 03:02 PM

Why is it when most British comedies get turned into American productions, they become awful?

Case in point: Couplings. Enjoyed the British version, hated the American interpretation, which thankfully was quickly cancelled. And the really bizarre
part? The first episode had virtually identical dialogue to its UK original.

What does this have to do with Stardust? Bloody 'eck if I know, guvner!

Posted by: ugordan Jan 12 2006, 03:16 PM

Hehe. "Red Dwarf" comes to mind as a similar example...

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 12 2006, 08:41 PM

Comet dust brought back to Earth

Scientists around the world eagerly await the arrival of sample particles
from Comet Wild 2, which are being brought back to Earth by the US Stardust
spacecraft on 15 January this year.

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Rosetta/SEM7G5MZCIE_0.html

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 12 2006, 11:27 PM

Looks like weather is going to be problem for observers in much of Northern California. There is a window opening up Sunday. Crossing my fingers that it will migrate closer to the reentry time. No matter what, I'll still make the 2-hour drive to Redding, if for nothing more than 2 hours alone with a good cigar. I've learned over the years that you never know when the clouds will part. Also the sonic boom will be better up there.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 13 2006, 02:34 PM

LAUNCH ALERT

Brian Webb
Ventura County, California

E-mail: kd6nrp@earthlink.net

Web Site: http://www.spacearchive.info

2006 January 13 (Friday) 06:04 PST
----------------------------------------------------------------------

STARDUST REENTRY

NASA's Stardust sample return spacecraft returns to Earth early this
Sunday morning. Just before touchdown in Utah, the craft will reenter
the atmosphere at 01:57 PST and briefly become a manmade meteor.
Despite the presence of bright moonlight, the reentry is expected to
be visible over portions of California, Nevada, Oregon, and Idaho.

For information on reentry viewing and the Stardust mission, consult
the following sources:

http://reentry.arc.nasa.gov/index.html

http://reentry.arc.nasa.gov/viewingforum.html

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/stardust/status.html

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html

http://www.nasa.gov/stardust

If you see the reentry or obtain any high quality images of the event,
please forward your reports or photos to the editor at
kd6nrp@earthlink.net.

Posted by: odave Jan 13 2006, 09:18 PM

FYI:

NPR's Science Friday had a http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2006/Jan/hour2_011306.html, featuring interviews with Don Brownlee and Alan Stern respectively. Audio should be available for download later today.

There wasn't much time for either Don or Alan to get down into details, but it's nice to hear them get air time. Don noted that over 17,000 people have registered for Stardust@home to date.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jan 13 2006, 11:36 PM

Just in time for the fireworks, here is a simple cylindrical projection mosaic of two of the Stardust images of the comet nucleus. The map extends from the north pole (top) to the south pole (bottom) and the ends and centre are on the long axis. The reprojection is done using a simple ellipsoidal shape model. The viewing directions for the two images were too different for them to fit together perfectly, so I will look at an intermediate image to fix some problems at the join.

Phil

Note added on Jan 14: north and south should be reversed! - rotate this image 180 degrees. The illuminated hemisphere is the northern one, not the southern. This now matches the current IAU definition of north. My original comment about north used the older IAU definition. Sorry! Phil

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 14 2006, 12:38 AM

Phil:

The two words which spring unbidden to my mind are 'polygon' and 'grid'. These may, of course, be merely artefacts of Bruce's ablative landforms...

Bob Shaw

Posted by: PhilCo126 Jan 14 2006, 01:30 PM

Those at the US Westcoast might be able to see the re-entry
Wish I was there !!!

http://reentry.arc.nasa.gov/viewingarea.jpg

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 14 2006, 04:17 PM

Yes my previous discussion begins http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=1456&st=15&p=34926&#entry34926

The weather has been "iffy". It was supposed to rain like hell today and then clear tomorrow, so my plan is to head up to Redding (2 1/2 hours) from Southern Sacramento County, with hopes of clearing by 2:00 am.

As of this morning the storm appears to be a big fizzle. My fall back plan if it's going to be cloudy in Redding, CA is to drive to Reno, NV (also 2 1/2 hours). In the event of the latter I'll have to deal with fresh snow and more attentive driving going over I-80 through the mountains, in which case I'll leave early and kill time in a casino.

If I capture anything I'll post it here this time Sunday. I'll be taking digital movies, digital stills, film stills, and analog video. Hopefully something will look good.

**EDIT**

It looks like it will be http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/USCA0922.htm:
Tonight: Rain showers ending this evening with mostly clear conditions overnight. Low 32F. Winds light and variable. Chance of rain 60%.

Posted by: deglr6328 Jan 14 2006, 06:52 PM

Even if you are not close enough to the reentry to SEE it, if you are anywhere on the western half of the US you should still be able to HEAR it. The ionized hot plasma created by stardust's friction with the atmosphere should reflect radio waves from stations over the horizon just like meteor trails do. If you turn to a quiet (no signal) station on the low end of the FM dial (not AM 'cause that's too low in frequency and naturally bounces off the ionosphere anyway, giving over the horizon reception normally) you should be able to hear pings that fade over a few seconds (meteoroids) or for the case of stardust I would imagine, a several minute long whistle or loud high pitched hum AT THE RIGHT TIME. Even if you aren't in western US you can still listen via several online streaming audio stations that are specifically set up to do so. Usually the stations are totally dead with no one else listening (not many people are keen on listening to nothing but static and ping noises for hours on end) but I don't want to give links here for fear of making them too popular (I want to listen too!) They are easy to find though if you really want to listen.

Posted by: bigdipper Jan 14 2006, 08:03 PM

I visited Aspen Aerogels' Northborough Massachusetts facility on Friday and came away with some sample material. (thanks Elaine) I also got to see and handle some monolithic aerogel like that on Stardust, AMAZING.

Aerogel has a number of industrial applications as insulation and available to consumers as insulating insoles to keep your feet warm (REALLY WARM).

Thinking of this stuff on MER, Stardust, and my feet at the same time while watching the re-entry on UMSF warms my heart.

Posted by: Chmee Jan 14 2006, 08:22 PM

So is any TV station going to air the movie "The Andromeda Strain" on Sunday?

Hopefully, Stardust doesn't land off target and the local doctor opens the capsule!

Posted by: lyford Jan 14 2006, 09:32 PM

ELkGroveDan should pack some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno just to be safe.
Good luck, Dan, and be careful driving back in that weather.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jan 14 2006, 11:01 PM

The map of Wild-2 in a recent post should be rotated 180 degrees (I'll add an edit to that effect) - after checking I found that I had flipped my north and south. Note that this is not caused by the mirror in the imaging system - the map is constructed from images which were already flipped to accomodate that.

Sorry!

Phil

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 14 2006, 11:08 PM

And aspirin!

Oh, and turn OFF that answering machine!

Bob Shaw

Posted by: RNeuhaus Jan 15 2006, 03:30 AM

Stardust Return Capsule Milestones ** Listed in Eastern Time

Capsule Milestones | Mission Overview
Date/Time (all times are approximate) Event
Jan. 15, 12:57 a.m. Stardust spacecraft releases return capsule on a path towards Earth.
1:18 a.m. Stardust spacecraft fires thrusters to put in into orbit around sun.
4:57 a.m. Return capsule enters Earth atmosphere.
5 a.m. Return capsule's first parachute, or drogue, deploys.
5:05 a.m. Capsule's main parachute deploys.
5:12 a.m. Return capsule lands inside U.S. Air Force's Utah Test and Training Range.
approximately 5:22 a.m. Helicopter and crew land near return capsule.
approximately 7:20 a.m. Return capsule arrives by helicopter to temporary cleanroom at Michael Army Air Field

Rodolfo

Posted by: Decepticon Jan 15 2006, 04:19 AM

Can this been seen live somewhere? Webcast maybe?

Posted by: MahFL Jan 15 2006, 04:28 AM

Nasa TV will be covering it from 4:30 am EST.
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html

Posted by: bigdipper Jan 15 2006, 05:52 AM

Nasa TV on NOW for stardust sampler/lander separation! 12:50am EST


edit 12:50_a_m

note - Nasa TV returned to _regular_ programming @ 1:06am EST

Posted by: bigdipper Jan 15 2006, 05:58 AM

Applause! 12:56 event successful.

Posted by: yaohua2000 Jan 15 2006, 06:48 AM

All time in UTC:

05:57:06 - separation of the capsule, range: 110608 km, range-rate=6.713 km/s, v=6.726 km/s
06:22:33 - 100 thousand kilometers away from Earth center, rr=6.968 km/s, v=7.016 km/s
06:46:23 - 90 thousand kilometers away from Earth center, rr=7.020 km/s, v=7.079 km/s
07:10:01 - 80 thousand kilometers away from Earth center, rr=7.083 km/s, v=7.157 km/s
07:33:26 - 70 thousand kilometers away from Earth center, rr=7.160 km/s, v=7.256 km/s
07:56:34 - 60 thousand kilometers away from Earth center, rr=7.257 km/s, v=7.386 km/s
08:19:21 - 50 thousand kilometers away from Earth center, rr=7.382 km/s, v=7.563 km/s
08:41:41 - 40 thousand kilometers away from Earth center, rr=7.546 km/s, v=7.822 km/s
09:03:28 - 30 thousand kilometers away from Earth center, rr=7.765 km/s, v=8.236 km/s
09:24:36 - 20 thousand kilometers away from Earth center, rr=8.009 km/s, v=9.007 km/s
09:45:41 - 10 thousand kilometers away from Earth center, rr=7.287 km/s, v=11.000 km/s
09:47:09 - altitude=3000 km (range - 6378.140 km), rr=7.002 km/s, v=11.240 km/s
09:49:39 - altitude=2000 km, rr=6.293 km/s, v=11.684 km/s
09:52:35 - altitude=1000 km, rr=4.946 km/s, v=12.223 km/s
09:52:56 - altitude=900 km, rr=4.739 km/s, v=12.285 km/s
09:53:17 - altitude=800 km, rr=4.520 km/s, v=12.345 km/s
09:53:40 - altitude=700 km, rr=4.269 km/s, v=12.410 km/s
09:54:04 - altitude=600 km, rr=3.992 km/s, v=12.474 km/s
09:54:30 - altitude=500 km, rr=3.676 km/s, v=12.540 km/s
09:54:59 - altitude=400 km, rr=3.304 km/s, v=12.609 km/s
09:55:31 - altitude=300 km, rr=2.870 km/s, v=12.678 km/s
09:56:10 - altitude=200 km, rr=2.312 km/s, v=12.750 km/s
09:56:42 - altitude=125 km (Geodetic alt=134 km), rr=1.825 km/s, v=12.799 km/s, a=+1.34 m/s^2, nw California, reentry begins
09:57:03 - alt=100 km, rr=1.516 km/s, v=12.5 km/s, a=+0.54 m/s^2, ne California
09:57:43 - alt=55 km, maximum deceleration at 30.5g
09:57:51 - alt=50 km, rr=477 m/s, v=6.0 km/s, a=-272 m/s^2, Nevada
09:58:23 - alt=40 km, rr=247 m/s, v=1.5 km/s, a=-59 m/s^2, Nevada
09:58:56 - alt=32 km, rr=234 m/s, v=0.6 km/s, a=-15 m/s^2, Utah, drogue deployment
10:00:01 - alt=20 km, rr=127 m/s, a=-0.96 m/s^2, Utah
10:02:05 - alt=10 km, rr=56 m/s, a=-0.034 m/s^2, Utah
10:03:49 - alt=5 km, rr=42 m/s, a=-0.014 m/s^2, Utah
10:04:43 - alt=3 km, Utah, main parachute deployment
10:12:00 - alt=0 km, rg=6369 km, rr=0 km/s, v=0.35 km/s, a= 0.00 m/s^2, Utah, 40.3 N, 113.7 W, capsule landed

Posted by: deglr6328 Jan 15 2006, 07:25 AM

hi yaohua from wiki !

Posted by: The Messenger Jan 15 2006, 07:45 AM

The weather does not look good for direct observation - Most of Eastern Nevada and western Utah are under a pretty good cloud cover

Posted by: slinted Jan 15 2006, 07:48 AM

Most all of northern california is clear skies at least. I'm heading off to catch some pictures, good luck to Stardust and anyone else hoping for clear skies.

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 09:36 AM

From NASA TV: Helicopters launched, weather "variable" @ 2:35AM MST.

Posted by: Harder Jan 15 2006, 09:41 AM

I have NASA TV, Spaceflightnow mission status center & Stardust homepage on my screen. Any other web page I should open? Coffee at hand - I'm "go" for this event.

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 09:43 AM

West Coast infrared image @ 0900 UTC 16 Jan shows northeast of SF Bay area looks favorable for viewing. Cloud cover in N Cal, north half of Nevada, patchy in N Utah.

Link: http://www.weatherimages.org/data/imag308.html


(Edit: Posted spacecraft entry, got spoofed by a test vid....my bad!)

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 09:48 AM

NASA TV reports skies at landing area clear, helicopters at staging area.


GOOD LUCK, STARDUST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: helvick Jan 15 2006, 09:50 AM

Likewise. The couch Thunderbirds are go.

Hope the on track re-entry sighting field team (ElkGroveDan) isn't too cold hour there.

Re-entry in 7 minutes ...

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 09:52 AM

Just ate my peanuts...

Posted by: djellison Jan 15 2006, 09:52 AM

Cat on Lap, NASA TV on Sky News active, Cup of Tea

Doug is go for landing


Doug

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 09:54 AM

USSTRATCOM tracking reports stable pre-entry config; no anomalies in brightness due to rotation of SRC.

Posted by: helvick Jan 15 2006, 09:57 AM

Just looking at the radar track, damn that thing is fast.

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 09:58 AM

Yes, it's unreal...already over central NV, IR image acquired!!!! Hope ElkGrove's seein' it!

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 09:59 AM

THE DROGUE OPENED!!!!!!!

Posted by: helvick Jan 15 2006, 09:59 AM

Drogue deployed

Posted by: JRehling Jan 15 2006, 10:00 AM

Just saw it! From my back deck, which faces north over the San Francisco skyline, it was a bright object (maybe mag. 0?) that appeared due north, a little lower than I had expected, and was moving VERY fast to the east. I've spotted many satellites, but this thing was streaking. I lost it in the lights over Oakland (and through the boughs of a eucalyptus tree).

It'll be in Utah VERY shortly.

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 10:01 AM

...that may have been premature.....

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 10:02 AM

Possible negative drogue deployment.

Posted by: deglr6328 Jan 15 2006, 10:02 AM

no change in velocity?!? not good I don't think if the drogue is supposed to be deployed!

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 10:03 AM

Not good...keep crossed fingers, appears to be decelerating.

Posted by: helvick Jan 15 2006, 10:04 AM

32000 feet, 1100 dps, no indication of slowing due to drogue.
Deceleration noticed finally at 26000

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 10:05 AM

Deceleration!!!!!! 500fpm, GOOD CHUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: helvick Jan 15 2006, 10:06 AM

Northerly drift detected - possible indication of drogue effect.

Main chute deployed..deceletating as predicted. Good chute

Flood control is a pain Doug

Posted by: Harder Jan 15 2006, 10:06 AM

After the peanuts I was about to start at my nails, but main chute confirmed open!

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 10:06 AM

CONFIRMED MAIN CHUTE DEPLOYMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: deglr6328 Jan 15 2006, 10:06 AM

phew that was nail biting.

Posted by: djellison Jan 15 2006, 10:07 AM

Flood control is there for a reason

This isnt a chat room (I was in #space for it ) You could always just edit your post instead.

That was nerver wracking indeed - nothing drogue related until quite late.

Doug

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 10:07 AM

Roger that....I was nibbling on my ELBOWS!!!!


Apologies, Doug, for the flood....I'll be good from now on!

Posted by: helvick Jan 15 2006, 10:10 AM

6000 ft, drifting gently down. Chute and SRC visible on the IR tracking. Sweet. Landing in 1.5 minutes.

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 10:11 AM

Awesome....It's DOWN!!!!

I could actually see the main chute gently collapse on the IR img after landing...nice!

Posted by: djellison Jan 15 2006, 10:11 AM

Touchdown confirmed.



Pitchforks away - Lo-Mart live another day.


Doug

Posted by: MizarKey Jan 15 2006, 10:11 AM

Touchdown! Congratulations to the whole Stardust team!

Eric P / MizarKey

Posted by: Adam Jan 15 2006, 10:11 AM

Landing!

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 10:18 AM

The NASA commentary is emphasizing how difficult finding the capsule is...I find that odd, considering that the landing was pretty clearly captured on IR... ...they should have a really good position fix!


...Okay, they just mentioned that the SRC is white on a white surface. Was there any reason not to paint it international orange, like aircraft "black" box recorders, before launch???

Posted by: jaredGalen Jan 15 2006, 10:18 AM

40° 0'21.9"N 113°0'31.25"W
Yaaayy fr Google Earth

Edit: I think those are the coordinates I heard

Posted by: Sunspot Jan 15 2006, 10:24 AM

Was the capsule swinging side to side under the parachute, or was that just an illusion?

Posted by: jaredGalen Jan 15 2006, 10:26 AM

They were saying it is pretty windy and it did kind of look like it was.
So it's pretty likely

Posted by: djellison Jan 15 2006, 10:26 AM

Not easy to find in that lot.

Doug

Posted by: helvick Jan 15 2006, 10:26 AM

I noticed that too, don't think it was an illusion.

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 10:27 AM

I didn't notice that myself. Could well be, but the current video of the choppers on right now shows a lot of convective/thermal optical interference...hard to tell what was real or not, I'd say.

Posted by: dilo Jan 15 2006, 10:32 AM

Posted by: Sunspot Jan 15 2006, 10:41 AM

They seem to be having trouble finding it

Posted by: djellison Jan 15 2006, 10:43 AM

Vertigo say they may have it - they're going to land and check it out

Posted by: Rakhir Jan 15 2006, 10:54 AM

Found !

Posted by: Toma B Jan 15 2006, 10:55 AM

News from Spaceflight Now:

SUNDAY, JANUARY 15, 2006
1054 GMT (5:54 a.m. EST)

The capsule has been found!

Posted by: jaredGalen Jan 15 2006, 10:57 AM

Shame we can't get the thermal footage from the helicopter.
Genesis like coverage would have been cool.

Posted by: Toma B Jan 15 2006, 11:29 AM

Spaceflight Now:
SUNDAY, JANUARY 15, 2006
1121 GMT (6:21 a.m. EST)

The capsule appears to have bounced three times before coming to rest on its side, the recovery forces report.

Posted by: odave Jan 15 2006, 02:23 PM

Great news! Thanks for the play-by-play for those of us who were too lazy to drag their butts out of bed.

Posted by: akuo Jan 15 2006, 04:20 PM

Main nasa site has http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stardust/main/index.html.

Posted by: gndonald Jan 15 2006, 04:43 PM

I watched the count down nervously over the internet from work. Sadly the pictures still havn't hit the local newstations yet.

I was also wondering has NASA announced what it plans to do (if anything) with the main part of the spacecraft which they've sent into solar orbit?

Posted by: djellison Jan 15 2006, 05:13 PM

The surviving flyby spacecraft can be used if someone succesfully applies for funding under a Discovery 'mission of opportunity' - http://discovery.larc.nasa.gov/dpl.html

I hope someone will get some funding, and it could do imaging, dust counting and dust Mass.Spec of another comet.

Doug

Posted by: The Messenger Jan 15 2006, 05:15 PM

That was fun...let's do it again!

Posted by: gndonald Jan 15 2006, 05:28 PM

Here's hoping that:

(1). That the get good science results from the captured material

&

(2) Someone comes up with a good plan/funding to carry out a 'mission of opportunity', because I'd hate to see a usable spacecraft 'thrown away' because the primary mission is over.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 15 2006, 05:37 PM

Well, well well.......................

Got to my chosen location about an hour early (which was an hour later than I really wanted).

Drove about 5 miles farther north into the Mountains. Found a most awesome site on the slopes overlooking an arm of Shasta Lake with a wide open view of the heavens.

Perfectly clear skies. Bone chilling cold (probably http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=20+degrees+F+in+C&btnG=Google+Search).

Set up the analog video and tripod, carefully focused to infinity and aimed it on the begining of the predicted trajectory and set the lens for a wide angle view.

Set up the digital video, aimed it at the departing end of the trajectory.

Set up a small digital still and set it to fire off rapid fire stills until the card was full, and aimed it at the midpoint of the predicted trajectory.

Loaded up the SLR with 1600 speed film. Set for manual exposure 1/60 sec, f4.5 and slung it over my shoulder.

15 minutes before estimated time, started both videos, poised next to digital still with left hand on shutter and SLR in right hand.

Friend with GPS monitor begins calling off time 15 minutes out.

10 minutes out a train comes thundering through a nearby tunnel.....

waited

waited

about 5 minutes before the scheduled time a small yellowish streak briefly flashes through the target zone...

That wasn't it! I yell to my friend, over the roar of the train....

waited....

waited...

and nothing more......

So now I feel like a complete fool.

There is no question that I was observing the correct part of the sky at the correct time. If anyone has any guesses as to what happened I'd be interested.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=50+USD+in+pounds&btnG=Search in gas and a night's sleep (shakes head in disgust)

At least the http://www.showmeyourash.com/product_info.aspx?pid=3262 was good.

Posted by: exobioquest Jan 15 2006, 05:39 PM

Any pictures of it in the lab yet? I want to see them crack it open and a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facehugger comes shooting out and gets one of the techs

In reality though I hope they find some complex organic molecules in the coming months, hope such volatile material did not vaporize out of the air-o-gel on impact.

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 15 2006, 07:17 PM

It was a c0n5piracy! The re-entry vehicle landed, 'by accident', in the only cr0p c1rcle for three States...

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stardust/multimedia/capsule-1.html

Which is why ElkGroveDan missed the show - it was, er, planned that way.

On a serious note, at least he had a good cigar!

Bob Shaw

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 15 2006, 07:34 PM

They opened the capsule... ...and not a can of Japanese energy drink in sight! Not even Sterno and aspirin...

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stardust/multimedia/cleanroom-2.html

Bob Shaw

Posted by: helvick Jan 15 2006, 07:38 PM

NoNoNo - look at how the pattern was formed by the capsule backshell!

All these chr0p c1rcles are obviously covert landing sites for sample return missions. I demand that the UK authorities comes clean about the dozens of successful sample return missions they have carried out and kept secret.

Posted by: JRehling Jan 15 2006, 08:10 PM

Sounds like you were viewing from below the entry path, so if there was any inaccuracy in how the track was reported, the difference in sky position would have been huge.

I saw it from San Francisco, and it was much lower than I expected it (via my own calculations). But I had no trouble spotting it, even against the intense glare of city lights. Because I was so much farther away, a modest discrepancy in position would have made less difference in where to look.

It was right on time. I went to my deck less than two minutes before the time, and there was no time discrepancy. It was moving *fast*, so if you weren't looking in the right place, it could have easily been behind the back of your head and finishing it's streak before you scanned for it. I'd say I had 30 seconds before it vanished into the light pollution over Oakland.

A pity I didn't video it -- the backdrop of skyscrapers and the Bay Bridge and that little streaking light could have been nice.

Posted by: nprev Jan 15 2006, 09:16 PM

Really sorry to hear this, Dan...we were pulling for you!

Posted by: RedSky Jan 15 2006, 10:06 PM

Seeing that reentry capsule on the ground with all the guys around it in heavy coats (looking like hazmat suits), it reminded me of the Andromeda Strain.

Posted by: Decepticon Jan 15 2006, 10:54 PM

Has it been opened yet?

Posted by: djellison Jan 15 2006, 11:33 PM

They'll just take off the backshell and get the sample canister out at the range - then send that on over to TX for proper opening and analysis. THAT should happen Thursday I understand.

Doug

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 16 2006, 12:50 AM

I've been known to take long drives for far more arcane reasons. And as we already discussed, I did get to enjoy an entire good cigar.

I should have brought some Lipovitan - D though. The coffee and espresso beans just weren't doing the trick.

Posted by: exobioquest Jan 16 2006, 12:51 AM

Well the biochemistry of andromeda strain is very SF and would require new physics to make possible, but it has been postulated that bacterial spores can survive travel through space for extensive time, completely unshielded! But it gets better: some models show that such spores could enter the atmosphere without producing enough friction to kill them, so if there is life being spewed out by comets they have been landing on earth by there own means… and there are even some nuts that have correlated every plague in history with meteor showers!

Posted by: nprev Jan 16 2006, 01:35 AM

Glad that the stogie was at least worth it, Dan!


Exobioquest, do you remember Sir Fred Hoyle's theories concerning comets & viruses? Too bad he died in 2001; I'm sure that he was hoping to see Stardust's results more than anyone else.

Posted by: lyford Jan 16 2006, 01:50 AM

ElkGroveDan, as someone who has convinced friends to make a long drive in order to freeze during a poor Perseid showing, I can sympathize... but then maybe you did your karmic duty by channeling bad luck away from the spacecraft, like a lightning rod, keeping it safe.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 16 2006, 02:19 AM

Anything for the greater cause.

Man it was cold. I've lived in places like Montreal, Canada and Bozeman, Montana over the years, so I really know cold, but somehow that mere 20 degree (-6) crisp air just ate through to my bones. Probably my advanced age is causing it. Going to be 45 soon.

I'll try and capture the audio stream from one of those video cameras for laughs as my friend Tom and I can be heard mulling over the circumstances.


(By the way, from Ventura, if you want a great location for Perseid viewing I'd suggest taking Hwy 26 out to I-5 and pulling off high atop the Tehachapis bnefore Gorman onto the Old Sierra Highway and finding a place out of view of the freeway. Another choice is to take camping gear to Palm Springs, ride the tram to the top of Mt. San Jacinto, get a wilderness permit at the ranger station and hike up the mountain a ways to a nice meadow with open skies. It'll blow your mind.)

Posted by: RNeuhaus Jan 16 2006, 02:44 AM

Caray, that is a misfortune. It is a headache with the Stardust's changing trayectories plans. Was the trayectory a bit northern than the pronosticated? So you are going to celebrate soon your birthday in Hawai with warmer waters to unfrozeen your bones.

Rodolfo

Posted by: exobioquest Jan 16 2006, 02:59 AM

nprev,

Yes, but I was not aware he was dead... may he spin in his grave, that all I going to say about him. (“if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”)

Stardust could provide evidence for panspermia at a pre-biotic level, that is really exciting, but if Fred Hoyle theories turn out true I will publicly shove a broom stick up my…

Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 16 2006, 03:14 AM

EGD, welcome to the world of observational astronomy. Many a time I've driven a hundred miles under arctic conditions with 200 pounds of equipment to photograph a comet, observe an eclipse or time an occultation, only to stand around all night, hands in pockets, looking at clouds...

It's a rough world. But you have to keep trying.

--Bill

Posted by: nprev Jan 16 2006, 06:47 AM

Yeah, I was surprised to see that Hoyle had died so recently. I don't give any credence to his ideas on comets & viruses, but it is a shame--and bitterly ironic-- that he passed away while Stardust was enroute to Wild 2.

Posted by: edstrick Jan 16 2006, 06:47 AM

After the capsule was down... I was thinking of a somewhat larger capsule in a crater near the town of Grovers Mills......

Posted by: nprev Jan 16 2006, 07:19 AM

I just heard a flash report on the radio...another capsule from space has landed just outside of Los Angeles! Unfortunately, my Motorola blew a tube shortly thereafter, but I hear this odd humming noise coming from outside...

Posted by: edstrick Jan 16 2006, 09:13 AM

Humming a angular 5-note theme.... with lots of bass in the notes?

Why do I have this urge to make mashed potato<e>s?

Posted by: odave Jan 16 2006, 02:44 PM

NPR reported this morning that they've got the canister out and are set to transport it to JSC tomorrow...

Posted by: exobioquest Jan 16 2006, 03:19 PM

Love to see pictures of the sample collector... Like to see some alien road kill splattered against it

So what can be done with the mothership, how much fuel is left?

Posted by: djellison Jan 16 2006, 03:35 PM

Well - the managers in the press conf's seemed to be fairly sure of the potential for one ( and infact they used plural... comets ) or more comet and/or asteroid flybys in the future. It has a reasonable camera ( not great, but some pictures are better than no pictures ), and the dust instruments, and it's well armed with it's Whipple Shields.

http://discovery.larc.nasa.gov/discovery/dpl.html
and specifically - http://discovery.larc.nasa.gov/discovery/PDF_FILES/Discovery1.pdf ( to be updated soon with post-flyby figures ) specify what's possible with it.

The managers were talking very ambiguously, as this is a competative discovery AO, but I imagine they'll be the one's to propose an extended mission, and would be most likely to get it. A few $10m's seems a bargin for an extra flyby to help us understand these strange bodies a little more, particularly given that CONTOUR never needed it's running costs and analysis money.

Doug

Posted by: odave Jan 16 2006, 04:11 PM

Those are the ones that say "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Wilson", right?

Posted by: CosmicRocker Jan 16 2006, 09:29 PM

As for the mothership's future possibilities, surely they would seriously consider a swing past Tempel 1, would they not? It really would be nice to get a clear image of the Deep Impact crater.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 16 2006, 09:39 PM

...or create another one!

Posted by: JRehling Jan 16 2006, 10:28 PM

I doubt if there is enough thrust available to visit any old target we choose. With limited fuel, the idea would be to see what appealing targets happen to stray within the torus surrounding Stardust's current orbit (plus or minus what changes can be made with the fuel remaining). I'd put very long odds against any given particular target being one of the options.

Posted by: nprev Jan 16 2006, 10:29 PM

I vote for P/Encke, since it's the purported source body for the August 10, 1972 daylight fireball that skipped back out of the atmosphere. BTW, I was under that thing in Western Montana at the time, if anybody is interested in an eyewitness account...awesome, but scary at that moment 'cause I thought it was an ICBM!

Another goodie would be the anomalous asteroid 3200 Phaethon that's recently been identified as the source of the Geminid meteors...probably a nearly-dead comet nucleus, so observations would be valuable for understanding the whole life cycle of these critters.

Both of these objects are reasonably close to the ecliptic plane, I think; P/Encke has a 3.3 yr orbit that doesn't look too different from that of the Stardust bus right now as far as eccentricity.

Posted by: dvandorn Jan 17 2006, 02:36 AM

So, has anyone heard any explanations yet as to why the tracking telemetry showed none of the anticipated deceleration during most of the drogue chute phase of the descent? Is there any story about this, any theory? And, heck -- is there any way they can recover the drogue chute? I mean, it had to come down *somewhere*...

-the other Doug

Posted by: exobioquest Jan 17 2006, 05:11 AM

Dam, nprev how badly did it scare you?, did you crap your pants or take it with a more “Well no need to commit suicide now, the bomb going to do it for me” kind of stride?

By the way how do you know what’s in Stardust flight path… if that info in a link you provided already, sorry I’m lazy.

Posted by: nprev Jan 17 2006, 06:32 AM

It was something else. I was in Butte, MT at the time, nine years old. My younger brother & I were walking home in the early afternoon, and we heard this LOUD double sonic boom; shook the whole city. We looked up, and here's this white teardrop of a fireball hauling across the sky towards the north and leaving a long trail. My brother asked me what it was, and all I could think was that it was an incoming missile. So, we ran home & hid in the basement!

As it turns out, we weren't the only ones that thought that. NORAD originally interpreted it as a probable launch from a hostile submarine due to its odd vector (and the fact that it was heading pretty near Malmstrom AFB, MT), and began running the EWO (emergency war order) process...brrr. I think that event marked when NORAD got serious about tracking large meteors...

I also wonder what that would have rated on the Torino scale. If I remember correctly, the object was estimated to be around 100m in diameter, and the relative velocity was around 20 miles per second. Its closest approach was 35 miles above the Montana/Idaho border before it skipped back out of the atmosphere again.

So, I guess I can claim the dubious honor of being one of the few living people almost killed by an asteroid (or comet?) impact! 35 miles is a pretty close miss...

----

On a different note, as far as those targets I mentioned...I'm just talkin', I don't know if they're feasible or not. However, it looks like 3200 Phaethon probably won't work; its perihelion is well inside Mercury's orbit, and the aphelion is beyond Mars...sounds like too much differential velocity for an effective flyby, even if the geometry turned out to be favorable.

Posted by: edstrick Jan 17 2006, 09:18 AM

The article on Space.com about a capsule return abort contingency, where the spacecraft would divert with the capsule and return in 3 or 3 1/2 years for another try suggests that Stardust may be close to a "free return" trajectory, much the same as was planned for Contour.

Basically, they have 2 options: Flyby of something within the post-swingby trajectory cone available using most of their propellant, whatever the best available target is, or put the vehicle on the Earth-swingby trajectory, and use the swingby to provide a much larger trajectory change and put it on a course to something more specifically interesting.

Regarding the 1972 fireball. I was in Yellowstone at the time with a brother and 2 friends on "the Great 1972 Western Trip".... a 20'ish day loop-vacation trip around the western US. No I <expletive deleted> didn't see the <expletive deleted> fireball. We were driving around Yellowstone making foul comments about tourists who'd cause "bear jams" by stopping in the middle of the road to take pictures and dodging spatter-showers. We heard about it the next day and made the appropriate comments of total frustration.

Posted by: edstrick Jan 17 2006, 09:29 AM

Oh.. and I'd be quite surprised if the fireball was at all associated with a comet. That thing was undergoing significant ram-pressure force (it did make big sonic booms), and probably had to have had the mechanical strength of rock, at least.

There NEVER has been a meteor shower fireball that's reached low enough altitude to make sonic booms, and *** NEVER *** been one that dropped a meteorite.

A basic description of meteor material somebody made maybe 2 decades ago, and which holds up today, is that they have all the mechanical strength of cigarette ash. Small Kuiper-belt objects are probably giant cosmic dust-bunnies, loosely packed together, but ultimately made of clots and clumps of aggregates of sub-micrometer dust. Bigger ones in the many of kilometers size range may have had enough radio-isotope heat to melt or sinter ices and turn into a hard block of dirt-ice inside, but we've had little evidence anything we see as comets have had that much thermal processing.

Zdenek Sekaninana <sp?> some 15 years ago analyzed the Tunguska fireball's parent body's entry path and mechanical forces acting on it. The entry angle below the horizon is poorly constrained... some Zero to 15 degrees, which doesn't help modeling, but the object disintegrated and did it's airburst when it was being subjected to a ram-pressure enough to crush softish rock, plus-or-minus some amount. It was probably (if I remember right) stronger than the crumbly varieties of carbonaceous chondrite, but much softer than nickle-iron. Maybe an ordinary chondrite, maybe a less metamorphosed one.

Posted by: Decepticon Jan 17 2006, 01:49 PM

I'm all for a all out Ceres flyby!



* Looks around room at Disbelief stares*

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 17 2006, 03:51 PM

Well since we are all dreaming, and this craft seems to have acquired some amazing capabilities, I'd prefer a flyby of Alpha Centauri. I'd also like a peek at the mass at the galactic center.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 17 2006, 04:05 PM

In Ithaca, NY, where Carl Sagan once lived and worked, there is an educational memorial to the man called the Sagan Planet Walk. The Sol system is scaled down to one mile, with informational monuments depicting the main worlds from our Sun to Pluto (the number of moons data is already terribly out of date for the Jovian planets).

The nearest star, Alpha Centauri (actually Proxima Centauri), would need a representative monument in Hawaii. And that is the nearest star to Sol.

http://sciencenter.org//saganpw/

Posted by: djellison Jan 17 2006, 04:16 PM

Realistically..... they'll look at the current spacecraft trajectory, and run forward to see what encounters are possible given the available dV and/or future flyby trajectory adjustments using Earth, and the power situation given how carefully they had to manage the spacecraft when it was out at aphelion.

It'll be a case of what can we visit with Stardust, not can we visit XXX with Stardust. Potential candidates will select themselves based on the orbital mechanics of it all.

Doug

Posted by: nprev Jan 18 2006, 01:45 AM

I saw something about the 1972 fireball having a close orbital similarity to Encke in Sky & Telescope a long, long time ago...that info might have since been superseded. Still, if this is accurate, couldn't it have been a stony or iron/nickel mass that had been blown clear of the comet's nucleus by outgassing at some time? I'm not sure that we understand the structure of cometary nuclei well enough at this point to rule that out, or even to apply a "one-size-fits-all" standard to them as a class. Lots of variety observed in the nuclei we've examined to date...

Also, the diameter estimates for the object are in the 5-10m range now, not 100m as I originally wrote. Getting old now, so of course I exaggerate!

Posted by: nprev Jan 18 2006, 01:49 AM

Sorry that you missed it, Ed...I just wish that I'd understood what it was at the time well enough to stay outside & watch it as long as I could!

Actually, I just missed a small amount of feasible viewing; it was almost right at zenith when I heard the boom & looked up, and it was moving...it was probably over the northern horizon in less than twenty seconds.

Posted by: edstrick Jan 18 2006, 07:46 AM

We really *don't* understand the structure of comet nucleii, but our best understanding is that the normal comet nucleus never really heated up inside enough to melt water ice, and the gravity is so low that they are "underdense" objects with a very high porosity level.

Indications of this is the fluffy-aggregate-of-submicrometer-grains nature of what we believe to be comet dust collected in the upper atmosphere, the ability of nucleii to totally dissipate into dust clouds, the mass (and with diameters roughly known, the density) of comets inferred from their orbital changes due to "non-gravitational-forces", and the lack of evidence for any meteorites or high-density metoroids from comet-associated meteor schowers. Hardly "rock-solid" evidence, but all pointing in the same direction.

That may totally not apply to mega-comets in the form of 100 or 200 or 500+ kilometer KB objects, or fragments of any formed by collissions. I have no idea what the modelling currently indicates is a size where Kb objects will squeese the porosity out of their cores, where they'll sinter cores into solid low-temperature ices plus water-ice and dust "cryo-rock", where the water itself will sinter solid, with low density ices driven out, where water will melt, or where in even larger objects you might get water driven entirely out of cores.

Add questions on the role of Aluminum-26 and other short-lived isotopes in heating small bodies like asteroids, and questions on the time scale of asteroid accretion vs KB object accretion... I don't know where the models have gotten to and what could be a minor part of the Earth-intersecting population from the outer solar system. But, so far, comet stuff seems to have all the "guts" of freeze-dried ice-cream.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 18 2006, 12:15 PM

Interesting that your description of a comet compares it to ice cream:

"In honor and anticipation of humanity's first direct contact with a comet, folks at the nearby Cornell Dairy Bar created something special called Cornell Comet Swirl. A large poster in the room described this as a combination of "kaluha ice cream, dark fudge swirls, and swirls of creamy caramel and pecans."

"The poster continued that this confection "represent[ed] the fusion and cosmic swirling of a myriad of components," just like how scientists think comets are made up of a preserved celestial mix of ice, rock and complex organic molecules formed during the early days of our Solar System's creation. Comets may even have played an important role in the formation of Earth's atmosphere, oceans and life. This is why scientists wanted to sample a comet, to discover what was going on in our cosmic neighborhood five billion years ago."

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14811016&BRD=1395&PAG=461&dept_id=216620&rfi=6

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 18 2006, 02:37 PM

An interesting review on Universe Today:

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/book_review_fred_hoyle_universe.html?912006

I've always had a soft spot for Fred Hoyle (and Tommy Gold). They may have been wrong more often than they were right, but they were both *interesting*!

Oh, and some of Hoyle's theories *were* accepted, so when can we gather round to watch a certain broom stick's Star Trek moment ('To boldly go, where...')?


Bob Shaw

Posted by: RGClark Jan 18 2006, 02:41 PM

I prefer to call this the currently, generally accepted theory. The results from Deep Impact suggesting clays and carbonates in Tempel 1 haven't been published yet, but this is consistent with the aqueous minerals seen in carbonaceous meteorites.
This implies comets did undergo sufficient heating to form liquid water.


- Bob Clark

Posted by: djellison Jan 18 2006, 04:52 PM

Anyone seen any images other than the two nasa-tv caps of the capsule since they opened it out. I'm a bit disapointed that we've not had any new pics etc.

There's a press conf scheduled for 1900 UT tomorrow, but that will clash with NH launch.

Doug

Posted by: exobioquest Jan 18 2006, 06:33 PM

Bob Shaw,

Sure Fred Hoyle theories are intrusting... but that was about it. Basically he lacked a major understanding of evolution and biochemistry, I can go into detail but don’t have the time now. Also I was thinking of Fred’s more outlandish theories in general, if viruses from space are the source of all evolution on earth, that there was no bigbang and the universe is steady state, etc. so if those are proven right then I will do as Carl on ATHF did and have the wooden end of a broom stick poking out the top of my skull!

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jan 18 2006, 07:07 PM

See http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10908902/

Posted by: djellison Jan 18 2006, 07:17 PM

WOAH
The largest is around a millimeter, Brownlee added, and the biggest track is nearly large enough to insert your little finger. In the largest aerogel tracks, investigators can see the black comet dust at the end of the track.

Webcam of the analysis site
http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/webcam.html

DOug

Posted by: odave Jan 18 2006, 07:54 PM

"Stardust is a phenomenal success," Brownlee said.

Fantastic - congratulations to everyone involved with Stardust. I am eagerly awaiting my stardust@home "call-up papers". Hopefully I'm not 4F

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 18 2006, 08:56 PM

Doug:

WOAH indeed! That's a thousand times larger than I'd expected - we're not just talking chemistry there, we're into the realms of mineralogy!

Great news!

Bob Shaw

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 18 2006, 09:30 PM

If you get that 1mm slice, your hunt should be easy going.

Posted by: akuo Jan 18 2006, 11:48 PM

Great images again on the main Nasa site of the inspection of the sample collector (some might have spotted the team photographing the collector earlier in the webcam). You can see great big splotches of comet particle hits:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stardust/main/index.html

Also announced was a science press conference for tomorrow (Jan 19th) about the samples. It will be on Nasa-tv at 11 am EST (16:00 UTC)

Posted by: djellison Jan 19 2006, 12:26 AM

Wow

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/141267main_jsc2006e01007_high.jpg

Doug

Posted by: deglr6328 Jan 19 2006, 03:22 AM

SPLAT! wow there's enough material there to do GC/MS and NMR on let alone ion microprobe analysis!

Posted by: nprev Jan 19 2006, 04:06 AM

Incredible!!! I can't believe that impacts of that size didn't have a MAJOR effect on the spacecraft's trajectory, to say nothing of its structural integrity...score 100 pts. for Ed's "ice cream" analogy!!!


I don't see any legs or wings or anything in the splats...not that comet bugs would need them!

Posted by: RGClark Jan 19 2006, 05:05 AM

An odd view for someone who calls himself exobioquest.


- Bob

Posted by: RGClark Jan 19 2006, 05:09 AM

At least they're wearing surgical masks here!

- Bob

Posted by: exobioquest Jan 19 2006, 05:27 AM

The photos are great, I see plenty of splattered bugs (use your imagination), can we get some photos of impacts of dust particle on the aluminum grid? I wonder if by analyzing the damage done to the frame of the collection grid we can guess at how effective the whipple shields were and if we can design lighter weight/smaller whipple shields without sacrificing performance.

Well I beleive pre-biotic panspermia is viable, but thats about as far as I go.

Posted by: Jeff7 Jan 19 2006, 06:03 AM

Somehow this just briefly struck me as amusing.

"Allright!!! We got a few grams of dust! DUST!!!!!"




Definitely looks like it was a very good collection mission. Next such mission can go Genesis-style, and have several of these collection things swing out, and bring back a few handfuls of dust or even some genuine chunks.

Posted by: edstrick Jan 19 2006, 07:28 AM

One thing that , oddly, has totally NOT been discussed is that Stardust has undoubtably collected a third population of samples: interplanetary micrometeoroids.

While the flyswatter (tennis racket, my <deleted>) was extended for interstellar dust collection, the forward facing side intercepted populations of interplanetary dust particles travelling slower around the sun than the spacecraft (many near aphelion), as well as Oort cloud dust particles in retrograde orbits, etc. The rear facing side, beside the interstellar grain population, must have collected populations of particles travelling faster than the spacecraft (many near perihelion). I have heard absolutely no mention of these "background" populations of particles that were collected, I'd assume decidely more abundant than the interstellar particles.

The Comet grains will have hit the collector nearly perpendicular to it's surface in essentially parallel trajectories. The interstellar dust grains, again, will have hit the collector nearly perpendicular to it's surface (by the design of the collection geometry and the known arrival of interstellar material in the solar system), but will have some "dispersion" around parallel impacts to to (I suspect poorly known) random grain velocities.

The background population should hit the flyswatter at all sorts of angles, on the average, not parallel to the target comet's dust and on the average not parallel to the interstellar dust.

It will be very interesting to see what they collected, how much on each side of the flyswatter, and of how many populations of material can be identified.

Posted by: Rakhir Jan 19 2006, 08:45 AM

Indeed, quite impressive !!

Posted by: djellison Jan 19 2006, 09:03 AM

Remember - except for the comet encounter, and two specific interstellar collecting periods, the array was tucked up in bed in the capsule

Doug

Posted by: edstrick Jan 19 2006, 09:21 AM

The interstellar collection periods <two of them> were a few months long, each. The interstellar flux is very low and constant (other than statistics of small numbers fluctuations) and that's for damn small particles, there are few if any bigger ones. I suspect the random interplanetary flux is considerably bigger, it took a long time of studies to even be able to detect the interstellar dust flux above the background.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 19 2006, 02:45 PM

Did LDEF pick up any interplanetary and interstellar debris during its time in Earth orbit? Just thought it might be useful for comparisons to Stardust's catches.

Posted by: RGClark Jan 19 2006, 03:41 PM

I think the skepticism in general on this question is because of our lack of knowledge about the interiors of comets.
Let me ask you a hypothetical: suppose it is confirmed that clays and carbonate occur in the interior of comets as Deep Impact suggests they do and suppose it is found they formed from liquid water (the presence of both clay and carbonate strongly implies this is the case).
Given that it has already been long known that organics are abundant in comets, do you think it is likely life exists or existed in comets?



- Bob

Posted by: exobioquest Jan 19 2006, 06:29 PM

Well it all depends on how long those clays and carbonates formed. If it was given many millions of years under liquid water (probably water and ammonia mix) life may have formed, most likely bacterial or nanobacterial (unlikely), if there is a ecosystem on comets then viruses are possible, but could they infect earth life, extremely unlikely: as a virus is very specific to a small set for host organisms, it could only infect native comet life, earth life would not have the proper receptors or biochemistry considering the billions of years of evolution that separates us… unless you don’t believe in that kind of thing.

Like Jon Stewart said a few days ago, its either dust formed billions of years ago, or ~6000 (roughly calculated biblical date) depending on who is wrong. Welcome to the era of "sound" science.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 19 2006, 06:40 PM

For a detailed Web site on panspermia, see:

http://www.panspermia.org

And directly related to Stardust, this just came from the BBC:

The successful return to Earth of NASA's Stardust capsule offers scientists a first chance to handle cometary dust. The probe bearing it flew close to comet Wild-2 in January 2004.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4627770.stm

One theory for the beginnings of life on Earth is that our planet was seeded by chemicals delivered by a comet. It's a concept known as panspermia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/life/beginnings/comet.shtml

Stardust also managed to collect rare interstellar particles on its seven-year trip. A substance called Aerogel - which is 99.8% empty volume - was used to collect microscopic dust without damaging it. Researchers want the help of people the world over to examine photographs and spot traces of the particles.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4607318.stm

Posted by: exobioquest Jan 19 2006, 08:29 PM

That web site is very bias, I would say http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia
is better.

There is a whole whole range of panspermia theories, some of which are not consider likely or viable by scientific consensuous (like Fred Hoyle's).

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 19 2006, 08:50 PM

Did Stardust bring back water from the comet Wild 2?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10927236/

Posted by: Sunspot Jan 21 2006, 01:21 AM

Another Stardust press confeence coming up next week, I wonder if they've found something unusual :

NASA ANNOUNCES STARDUST MISSION MEDIA UPDATE

The next Stardust comet mission media briefing is at 1 p.m. EST (noon,
CST), Tuesday, Jan 24 in room 135, Building 2, Johnson Space Center,
2101 NASA Parkway, Houston.

The briefing will be live on NASA TV with questions also from
reporters at participating agency centers. NASA experts will discuss
the analysis of comet and interstellar dust samples returned by the
Stardust spacecraft.

Participants:
-- Dr. Donald Brownlee, Stardust Principal Investigator, University of
Washington, Seattle
-- Dr. Peter Tsou, Deputy Principal Investigator, Jet Propulsion
Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
-- Dr. Michael Zolensky, Stardust Curator and Co-investigator, Johnson
Space Center

Posted by: gpurcell Jan 21 2006, 04:51 AM

I don't think so. If there was a big finding, there would be NASA brass there as well.

Posted by: nprev Jan 21 2006, 04:57 AM

Hmm. Sure hope so!

I have a silly aerogel question, BTW: How does that stuff stay stable in space? Based on its stated composition, I can't understand why it doesn't outgas like crazy in vacuum & subsequently collapse... Also, is it expected to contaminate the samples in any way?

Posted by: edstrick Jan 21 2006, 09:46 AM

Aerogel is like a nylon scrubbing pad.. all interconnected web of silica forming a very open sub micrometer spongework. It's not like closed cell foam rubber. It outgassed quickly enough to not blow up, and refills with air sometime on entry fast enough it doesn't get collapsed by pressure.

Posted by: nprev Jan 21 2006, 06:24 PM

Okay, that makes sense; I thought that it was "foamy", with trapped air bubbles throughout. Thanks, Ed!

Posted by: deglr6328 Jan 23 2006, 07:01 AM

huh, is http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060122/COLUMNISTS0203/601220338/1089/BUSINESS not already a common hobby for many people?!

Posted by: lyford Jan 23 2006, 07:16 AM

I hope that title is a typo...

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 23 2006, 03:32 PM

LAUNCH ALERT

Brian Webb
Ventura County, California

E-mail: kd6nrp@earthlink.net

Web Site: http://www.spacearchive.info

2006 January 22 (Sunday) 19:28 PST
----------------------------------------------------------------------

STARDUST REENTRY OBSERVATIONS

In response to my request for Stardust reentry observations, I
received the following reports from Gary Baker and Rick Baldridge.

Gary Baker:

"FYI, I viewed the Stardust reentry in cloud-free skies from
Roseville, CA (northeast of Sacramento), no closer than 180 miles from
the reentry ground track. The reentry was on time and its brightness
was impressive given its distance. It was at least as bright as mag -2
(Jupiter), and probably approached -4 (Venus). Its apparent brightness
peaked when the SRC was closest to my location (within 10 seconds of
acquisition), and then held roughly constant as the SRC ventured
further east and lower in my sky. It first appeared pure white, and
then took on a subtle reddish hue that it kept until finally fading
out rapidly at about 2 deg elevation, just above the Sierra Nevada. It
was really moving -- I've seen Shuttle reentries, and the SRC was very
obviously moving faster than the Shuttle returning from LEO. The SRC
appeared very much like a natural meteoric fireball."

Rick Baldridge:

"Yeah, we saw it. William Phelps, Brian Day and I ended up NE of Red
Bluff in the foothills about 880ft elevation on Highway 36 that goes
to Lassen (N40.268, W122.130). I screwed up on the timing by one
minute (too tired and misread the plot I had), so we weren't as
prepared as we would have liked to have been. If Brian hadn't seen
Stardust in the northeast sky and yelled to us, I think all three of
us would have missed it. From our location, it should have first
become visible in Perseus and gone just slightly under Polaris as it
headed toward the east. William and I were looking west of Polaris
when Brian spotted it well to the east of us. We saw it for maybe 25
seconds, and video taped it for much less than that. I sent a
preliminary report to Peter Jenniskens (Ames) via the Stardust
website giving our coordinates, equipment and basic results.

It was moving real fast -- about twice as fast as a Shuttle re-entry
but two to three times slower than a typical meteor. It was definitely
red-orange but showed little or no plasma wake at that point. It did
get fairly bright (about zero-magnitude - Saturn's brightness) and was
increasing in intensity as it descended toward Lassen Peak as viewed
from our location. It all happened so fast that we all said, "What the
__ ? Was that it?" simply because we had driven 5 hours to get out in
the middle of nowhere and it was over in 30 seconds, plus we still had
another 5 hours to drive back to the Bay Area. But we knew that. I'm
glad we saw it. Seeing the fastest re-entry of the man-made object WAS
certainly something, and I'm happy for NASA that it landed
successfully.

The videos I took came out pretty well. Will try to post them soon.
The photos so far are disappointing. One of mine BARELY shows a streak
as the trail heads into the horizon near Mt. Lassen. Haven't seen
Brian's shot yet or William's stuff, but William did get a video and
Brian mentioned last night that one of his photos does barely show the
streak.

Kevin went out on the tarmac at Moffett (NASA/Ames) to get a good
northern horizon but he didn't see anything naked-eye. My brother
Brian was in Fort Bragg but I haven't spoken to him yet to find out
whether he saw it or not.

Some stuff is slowly being posted at:

http://dgilbert3.home.mindspring.com/stardust.htm

http://reentry.arc.nasa.gov/index.html

http://reentry.arc.nasa.gov/firstreactions.html"

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jan 23 2006, 06:44 PM

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/012306p2.xml
By Michael Mecham
Aviation Week & Space Technology
01/22/2006 09:21:34 PM

Posted by: paulanderson Jan 24 2006, 06:57 AM

The media briefing has now been postponed...

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/jan/HQ_M06016_Stardust_postponed.html

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Jan 24 2006, 11:16 AM

I hope they didn't find the mutilated corpses of teeny tiny little people buried in the aerogel...

Posted by: Ames Jan 24 2006, 11:28 AM

Stop-it! The conspiritorialists will be all over us!

Arrrrrgh!

Posted by: edstrick Jan 24 2006, 12:57 PM

"I hope they didn't find the mutilated corpses of teeny tiny little people buried in the aerogel... "

No... they found MEDFLIES.

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Jan 24 2006, 10:39 PM

A far more chilling possibility. The Andromeda Strain would be nothing by comparison.

(You know, come to think of it, in that novel the germ was brought back to Earth by PRECISELY this kind of mission, albeit one in Earth orbit. It's a mark of the scientific ignorance that frequently lurks underneath Michael Crichton's facade that he'd think the military might consider such a mission economically worthwhile to look for new germ weapons.)

Posted by: RGClark Jan 25 2006, 02:49 PM

Could it be "tar" found in the particles?
The interstellar dust collector on Stardust had already found complex organic tar-like molecules with its CIDA mass spectrometer:

Tarlike macro-molecules detected in 'stardust'
MAX-PLANCK INSTITUTE NEWS RELEASE
Posted: April 29, 2000
"It is the size of these molecular fragments with nuclear masses of up to 2000 (water e.g. has 18 such units) which surprised us as much as the seemingly absence of any mineral constituents", explains Dr. Kissel of the Garching-based Max-Planck-Institut für extraterrestrische Physik. "Only organic molecules can reach those sizes". The largest molecules found in space so far are the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) which reach masses of a few hundred mass units.
"The details of the mass spectra measured with CIDA show that the molecules of the interstellar dust must have about 10 percent of nitrogen and/or oxygen in addition to hydrogen and carbon. This means that these cannot be pure PAHs, which are planar, but are especially due to the nitrogen extend into all three spacial directions."
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0004/29tarstardust/

These "tar-like" particles are presumed to be interstellar because of their direction and high-speed. However, it is notable that the Giotto spacecraft also detected "tar-like" materials on the surface of comet Halley. Perhaps the CIDA detected particles arose from jets from comets that could explain their high speeds and unexpected directions.
On Earth actual tar is formed from combustion or decay of living material. If these Stardust grains are found to contain true tar that would suggest they arose from past life in space.


c.f.,

Newsgroups: sci.astro, sci.astro.seti, rec.arts.sf.science, sci.bio.misc
From: Robert Clark <rgcl...@my-deja.com>
Date: 2000/04/29
Subject: Re: Tarlike macro-molecules detected in 'stardust' (Forwarded)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.astro.seti/msg/f42528d44bba448a


Bob Clark

Posted by: ugordan Jan 25 2006, 02:56 PM

Why do you think tar can come only from decay of living organisms?

Posted by: Phillip Jan 25 2006, 03:04 PM

Should we re-name this thread "tardust"?

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 25 2006, 03:39 PM

Is This Life?

The Scientist January 2006

*************************

In the past decade, individual labs
have met 10 of 12 proposed
requirements for creating a
"protocell," but in quite different
ways. With only two steps remaining,
they might achieve a synthetic
organism within this...

http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=5245&m=7610

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jan 25 2006, 05:05 PM

A couple of Wild-2 maps. The first is a reprojection of two images using an ellipsoid shape model - needs improving. North at the top, simple cylindrical projection (modified from an earlier post):

The second is a DEM made from the plate model recently put up on the PDS small bodies website. Same projection. Darker areas are lower. The south is smooth because it wasn't seen.



Phil

Edited a bit later: I don't really trust this DEM very much. I'll have to think about it. It is a faithful rendition of their model, but I think the model could be improved a lot.

Posted by: RGClark Jan 25 2006, 10:21 PM

In nature, actual tar only arises from the breakdown of prior living matter.
It would be like finding petroleum oil in space. In nature, this arises only over long periods from the breakdown of prior living material.

Tar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar

La Brea Tar Pits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Brea_Tar_Pits


- Bob

Posted by: The Messenger Jan 25 2006, 10:35 PM

Hold the phone. We assume tar on Earth is all byproduct of life processes. We can also make it synthetically, and there is no reason to assume there are not any natural synthetic processes that predate our own.

Secondly, this news release was in 2000 - the visible particles from star dust appear to be - on first blush - minerals, not tars. Could it be the particle sizes were too great to be detected by the in situ analyzers?

Posted by: RGClark Jan 25 2006, 11:45 PM

True we can make it synthetically. But as I said that's not the way it occurs in nature. Of course you could say it was formed artificially by someone else in space. ;-)
Actually, if you look at the Wikipedia article, even when produced in industry you still need petroleum products or coal derivatives to produce it, which themselves arise from prior living material.



- Bob Clark

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 26 2006, 01:59 AM

There is Tommy Gold's theory in the Deep Hot Biosphere:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.07/gold_pr.html

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Jan 26 2006, 02:27 AM

I have never read anything to suggest that they think the complex organics in comet dust -- or in interstellar dust -- might even conceivably be biologically produced. (Now, on the other hand, it may have been a useful precursor to the appearance of terrestrial life by seeding the ancient Earth...)

Posted by: centsworth_II Jan 26 2006, 07:06 AM

Contrary to all the wild speculation, I think the problem might be finding something interesting to say in a press briefing. They have already said what can be learned from the samples, no need to call a briefing to repeat that. Now they have to wait til there is something new to say.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 26 2006, 06:10 PM

Capsules From the Cosmos: Stardust Success Could Signal More Sample Missions

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/060126_sample_capsules.html

When the Stardust capsule blazed its way through Earth's atmosphere to a
parachute landing in Utah earlier this month, the event was a preview of
extraterrestrial attractions to come.

Posted by: RGClark Jan 27 2006, 03:03 PM

Well, clearly, you're not going to have a mainstream scientist proclaim life in comets, prior to having samples to look at.
I expect at least the interstellar dust collected to contain tar-like organics. It will be interesting to find out how complex those organics are.
However, at least some of the Wild 2 dust collected appears to be mineral:

Dissecting Stardust
"The holes are carrot-shaped, with a large entry hole that tapers to a point. The first photograph of a cometary particle shows it residing in the very tip of the tunnel it drilled, like the dot of an exclamation point. The particle is only 11 microns across, and appears to be a transparent mineral grain.
"Scientifically, that's great, because there's been lots of discussion of whether comets contain minerals or glass," says Brownlee."
http://www.astrobio.net/news/article1841.html



- Bob Clark

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 27 2006, 03:16 PM

Could the dark material on Iapetus be the same kind of material found on comets?

Is it an organic "tar"?

Posted by: SigurRosFan Jan 27 2006, 05:17 PM

Wow!



- http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/news/status/060125.html - Stardust Status Report / Jan 25

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 27 2006, 05:24 PM

http://www.nationalacademies.org/headlines/20060126.html

Interstellar Dust Returned to Earth for Study

By Lisa Pickoff-White

January 26 - NASA's Stardust spacecraft traveled more than 2.88 billion miles, over seven years, to bring back samples of some of the oldest materials in the solar system. Inside the canister is a collection of grains of comet and interstellar dust that will be sent to investigators worldwide for research.

These materials consist of ancient pre-solar interstellar grains and cometary dust. Analysis of the celestial specks is expected to yield important insights into the formation of the solar system. The spacecraft collected the comet remnants by flying within 149 miles of the comet Wild 2 in January 2004 and collected interstellar dust as it traveled throughout the solar system.

The same week as Stardust's arrival, NASA launched New Horizons, the first spacecraft to explore Pluto and its moon Charon, an area of great interest to scientists exploring the origins of the solar system. Recently, scientists discovered two possible new moons of Pluto using the Hubble Space Telescope.

A National Research Council report, New Frontiers in the Solar System: An Integrated Exploration Strategy, examines the nature of contemporary solar system exploration and why it remains a scientifically compelling activity today. It makes several recommendations for NASA's space exploration agenda over the next decade, prioritizing missions within different size classes, including collecting fragments of a comet and further exploration of Pluto and the Kuiper belt region Assessment of Options for Extending the Life of the Hubble Space Telescope: Final Report recommends that to ensure continuation of the extraordinary scientific output of the Hubble Space Telescope and to prepare for its eventual de-orbiting, NASA should send a space shuttle mission, not a robotic one for repairs.

New Frontiers in the Solar System: An Integrated Exploration Strategy 2003

http://books.nap.edu/catalog/10432.html

Assessment of Options for Extending the Life of the Hubble Space Telescope: Final Report 2005

http://books.nap.edu/catalog/11169.html

Space Studies Board

http://www7.nationalacademies.org/ssb/

Other Resources:

NASA’s Stardust Mission Page

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stardust/main/index.html

Posted by: exobioquest Jan 27 2006, 08:28 PM

Just to make things clear: organic "tar" does not need a biological origin, in a comet's case all you need is froze organics like CH4, NH3, CO2, H2O and radiation (heat or ionizing) and the radicals and ions formed will polymerize into a assorted mess of complex organic molecules including long chained hydrocarbons (tar). If there is something more in the sludge like prebiotic life that is a very interesting possible, but the prebiotic life would come from the tar, not the tar being a result of the proto-life.

Posted by: stewjack Jan 27 2006, 09:25 PM

That looks like wallpaper material to me.

Jack

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 27 2006, 09:46 PM

Lovely article, though I still revere Arthur Holmes!

Gold was right to criticise geologists for their adherence to 'fashions', but sadly was no better himself in some ways at avoiding such pitfalls. And even when wildly wrong he was entertaining, unlike the WWW-based contrarians and conspiriologists of today, who are merely appalling...

Bob Shaw

Posted by: The Messenger Jan 28 2006, 01:28 AM

It would seem to me that C-14 or other isotop ratios would be important in figuring out whether or not a given batch of earth-tar is biological. I wonder, about oil-shale and oil sands. Are we reasonably certain all earthly tars are biological?

I also wonder if the large particles sizes messed up the in-situ analysis. When we try to run GCMS in dirty environments, we have to take special measure to make certain the rapidly plugging filters do not adversely affect the flow rate and skew the distribution.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jan 28 2006, 06:41 PM

Great film of Stardust's return to Earth, complete with subtitles:

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/anim/stardust_reentrya.mov

Posted by: ugordan Jan 28 2006, 11:10 PM

Has anyone else noticed that a faint meteor actually streaks briefly at around one minute into the clip?! It appears in the upper left quadrant of the frame, shooting downwards.

Pretty cool, shows just how much faster meteors are than even the "fastest-ever" returning human-made capsule.

Posted by: Rakhir Jan 31 2006, 08:22 AM

Stardust placed into hibernation mode.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2006-016

Rakhir

Posted by: Rakhir Feb 1 2006, 12:53 PM

Stardust Status Report
January 31, 2006
The pace of sample processing has ramped up. Six particles have been removed from the aerogel.

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/news/status/060131.html

------------------------------------

Scientists Begin Intense Study of Stardust Particles

Work is already beginning on analyzing the pristine grains the spacecraft brought to Earth.

http://planetary.org/news/2006/0131_Scientists_Begin__Intense_Study_of.html

Posted by: ljk4-1 Feb 1 2006, 09:34 PM

Image of the Day: Flash and Burn!

http://www.space.com/imageoftheday/image_of_day_060201.html

The Earthward plunge of NASA's Stardust sample return capsule is captured by
Bruce Fischer of the Ogden Astronomical Society in Utah.

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Feb 3 2006, 06:04 PM

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/02/01_stardust.shtml
UC Berkeley News
February 1, 2006

Posted by: PhilCo126 Feb 3 2006, 08:59 PM

Stardust was a superb mission ... thanks for the photo-link ljk4-1 !

By The Way did UC Berkeley already open a website for enthusiasts helping to do some basic research on the samples ?

Posted by: tty Feb 3 2006, 10:50 PM

Details at: http://stardustathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/

tty

Posted by: dilo Feb 4 2006, 08:47 AM

Probably the most beautiful image from the reentry (hey, there is Orion constellation on the left!).
Looking at this, there is a considerations that took my breath away: perhaps, almost 4 billions years ago, a similar event sparked life on our planets and now we reproduced it!
Thanks to Fischer and all NH team!

Posted by: ljk4-1 Feb 8 2006, 11:53 PM

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/news/status/060207.html

Stardust Status Report
February 7, 2006

Dr. Peter Tsou
Stardust Deputy Principal Investigator

It has been 3 weeks since landing!

Based upon an initial X-Ray Tomography (XT) examination of the
quickstone - a particle track removed from an aerogel fragment with an
ultrasonic blade - the bifurcated track (2 tracks as shown in Photo 1)
is now determined to be "pentafurcated" (5 tracks) since three more
smaller tracks have been identified. With the XT, we will have a solid
digital model of the quickstone and be able to view the entire track
from all directions on a computer screen. This is especially important
in identifying sizes of grains scattered along the track (down to 0.1
microns) and their precise locations.

On January 19th, 2006, we released the first picture of a particle
(shown in Photo 2) taken in situ of the aerogel. We have now made a
keystone of the track (shown in Photo 3). The particle and its track
removed from an aerogel fragment with an automated keystone system. This
keystone can now be conveniently transported and placed into various
analytical instruments to study its properties.

The Preliminary Examination Team will be gathered in the Stardust
Cleanroom on February 9 to begin the second cell extraction cycle. The
Team has looked at some of the removed small particles and found the
entry fragments are melted more so than the particles further down the
track. This was as expected. The Team will remove some of the larger
particles to determine how well the grains had survived. The Team will
also remove a few grains from the largest tracks to determine their
compositions.

Images

Photo 1: Aerogel slice removed with an ultrasonic blade, showing
particle tracks.

Photo 2: Comet particle in aerogel.

Photo 3: A "keystone" cut of aerogel showing particle and track.

Posted by: RGClark Feb 10 2006, 02:41 PM

Lisse et.al. will report on their detection of carbonate and clay from Deep Impact at the 37th Lunar and Planetary Science Conference in March:

Spitzer Space Telescope Observations of the Nucleus and Dust of Deep Impact Target Comet 9P/Tempel 1.
C.M. Lisse1 and the Deep Impact Spitzer Science Team. 1 JHU-APL,
11100 Johns Hopkins Road, Laurel, MD 20723 ****@jhuapl.edu.
Lunar and Planetary Science XXXVII (2006) 1960.pdf
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/1960.pdf

They have submitted this for publication in Science.


- Bob Clark

Posted by: RGClark Feb 17 2006, 04:43 AM

Just saw this on Uplink.space.com:

Published online: 13 February 2006
A comet's tale.
...
"Whatever it is, it's weird"
After fiddling around to improve the picture slightly, Kearsley starts a more intensive scan of the grain that will reveal its chemical make-up. As the analysis comes through, there are cries of surprise. "Whatever it is, it's weird," says Bland.
"The team agonize over the decision to make another scan to get more accurate results, but Kearsley is worried about "frying" the sample. "These grains have had a long journey and rather a lot of money spent on them," he cautions.
"They can see that just a few minutes exposure to high-energy electrons has changed the structure of some of the epoxy surrounding the grain, so they finally decide that the initial results are so astonishing that they should contact Mike Zolensky at Johnson Space Center immediately to tell him about the find, and wait for further instructions. Zolensky is in charge of the preliminary analysis of the samples, and is collating all the information from these first tests."
http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060213/full/060213-2.html



Bob Clark

Posted by: The Messenger Feb 17 2006, 05:07 AM

Wacky crystals?

Should we start a pool on what they are? quartz? Bucky Balls? Diamonds? zirconium hexaflouride?

Posted by: deglr6328 Feb 17 2006, 06:28 AM

It's Pop Rocks.