Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ Opportunity _ Going To Mogollon...
Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 20 2006, 02:30 PM
[attachment=3535:attachment] (138k)
But what about these ones? It looks like the smallest touch could broke them.
[attachment=3536:attachment] (138k)
PS: It's time to open a new thread, don't you think so?
Good idea. That topic was "tired" and had the cord showing.
Delicate, to be sure. One thing I've noticed is that the "ledge-forming" rocks are a layer and extend to the right and left of where we camped out. I wonder if that feature is related to the bluff at Mogollon Rim?
We need to check out the "mobile dust" at that site and see if there has been more movement during the stopover.
--Bill
Posted by: lyford Jan 20 2006, 05:28 PM
Does it look like there was any piled deposition of dust to the right of where the rover wheels were parked for so long? 
I realize there are several explanations for this, one of which that I am imagining it all, or it could just be an effect from driving disturbing the soil, and I don't even know if this would map to the right wind direction.
It might be evidence of some movement by wind, nonetheless.
EDIT - http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/forward_hazcam/2006-01-19/1F190952491EFF64KKP1205R0M1.JPG
Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 20 2006, 07:03 PM
Ed, it may very well be that sand has piled up n the wiindward side of the right wheel. AFAIK, the prevailing wind direction seems to be coming more or less from the right, so it is possible. It could be that soil has been displaced, let's look at earlier and other images of that spot.
--Bill
Posted by: Tesheiner Jan 21 2006, 06:10 PM
An article at Space.com:
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/060120_opportunity_drive.html
"Opportunity will spend its time studying “Overgaard” along the rim of Erebus Crater for the next week or so before heading toward a new region of its Meridiani Planum landing site, mission managers said. "
Posted by: Sunspot Jan 21 2006, 07:40 PM
..week or so? 
Posted by: ilbasso Jan 22 2006, 05:16 AM
They didn't say which week. 
Posted by: CosmicRocker Jan 22 2006, 06:48 AM
Well, that pretty much confirms that more MIs of the crossbedding are planned. I think we were warned that they were going to look over this exposure in detail. I am really anxious to get to Mogollon, but it would be pretty nice to get a big MI mosaic of that nifty stuff over Lower Overgaard.
Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 22 2006, 07:54 AM
> I am really anxious to get to Mogollon, but it would be pretty nice to get a big MI mosaic...
Me too, this is a good opportunity to study x-bedding. We'll just have to sit here and fidget...
--Bill
Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 22 2006, 03:20 PM
This is what happens when you invite too many geologists to a party.
Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 22 2006, 06:30 PM
Foo.
--Bill
Posted by: alan Jan 29 2006, 08:54 PM
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/060120_opportunity_drive.html
"Opportunity will spend its time studying “Overgaard” along the rim of Erebus Crater for the next week or so before heading toward a new region of its Meridiani Planum landing site, mission managers said. "
Oppy leaving today?
717 p0650.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_10x1_az_90_1_bpp
717 p1201.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_penultimate_1_bpp_crit16
717 p1214.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
717 p1316.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_4_bpp_pri41
717 p1938.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 Navcam_IDD_doc_crit19
717 p1939.04 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_idd_stow_workspace
Posted by: Shaka Jan 29 2006, 09:26 PM
717 p0650.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_10x1_az_90_1_bpp
717 p1201.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_penultimate_1_bpp_crit16
717 p1214.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
717 p1316.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_4_bpp_pri41
717 p1938.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 Navcam_IDD_doc_crit19
717 p1939.04 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_idd_stow_workspace
Alan,
The codes above are 'Greek' to me, but I would be shocked and bewildered if Oppy moved more than half a meter over the next week. After spending (wasting?
) a week MIing a slab without obvious festoon bedding, they have yet to map the slab that does have it (maybe). Anyway, they're still having trouble with Oppy's arm joints, so I fear we are going to be stuck here for a while yet. 
Christmas is coming; the geese are getting...
Posted by: dot.dk Jan 29 2006, 09:42 PM
From:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status.html#opportunity
So no big movement yet...
Posted by: Shaka Jan 30 2006, 01:27 AM
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status.html#opportunity
So no big movement yet...
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/forward_hazcam/2006-01-29/1F191836981EFF64KWP1214R0M1.JPG
O.K. Oppy just stretched, boogied a little, and did a quick pan (deja vu ), just to keep in practice. There's life in the old girl yet!
Posted by: jvandriel Jan 30 2006, 09:50 AM
The last images are down and here is the 360 degree panoramic view around Erebus.
Taken with the L1 pancam on Sol 712.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: slinted Jan 31 2006, 12:21 AM
Since this is the thread for "...and points south", it seems as good a place as any for this little chuckle.
The homepage for the Mapping and GIS Laboratory at OSU (the routemap people) currently features a http://shoreline.eng.ohio-state.edu/news/060103dispatch/060103.pdf published in the Columbus Dispatch back on January 3rd. It includes some quotes from the Ron Li, the leader of the OSU mapping group, as well as 2 routemaps credited to the OSU group, showing the rovers progress up until December 22, 2005.
Imagine my surprise when I looked at the Opportunity routemap...not only did Opportunity already arrive at Victoria (which has shrunk to 200 feet wide, and is now apparantly renamed Erebus), but they have already driven partially around the rim 
|
Posted by: Bill Harris Jan 31 2006, 12:39 AM
I have long commented jokingly that the "route map" contractors seem to be clue-challenged because their route maps have been rather pitiful. I've also joked that they seem to be cloning the look-and-feel of the routmaps we produce here on UMSF since theirs have markedly improved in the last year.
Although I was joking, I don't think I was...
--Bill
Posted by: jamescanvin Jan 31 2006, 01:52 AM
The homepage for the Mapping and GIS Laboratory at OSU (the routemap people) currently features a http://shoreline.eng.ohio-state.edu/news/060103dispatch/060103.pdf published in the Columbus Dispatch back on January 3rd. It includes some quotes from the Ron Li, the leader of the OSU mapping group, as well as 2 routemaps credited to the OSU group, showing the rovers progress up until December 22, 2005.
Imagine my surprise when I looked at the Opportunity routemap...not only did Opportunity already arrive at Victoria (which has shrunk to 200 feet wide, and is now apparantly renamed Erebus), but they have already driven partially around the rim
|
|
And the Spirit one is no better. The insert is ok (I think) but the main map!
|
Posted by: SigurRosFan Jan 31 2006, 09:47 PM
No Mogollon Rim close-up's??
http://athena.cornell.edu/news/mubss/
--- Once we've hit all the festoons on Upper Overgaard, then there are a couple of other nearby targets we've got our eyes on... one called Bellemont and another called Roosevelt. We'll go after one or both of those, and then it will be time to hit the road in a big way.
The drive south from here is going to be interesting. Victoria crater beckons, and we really want to lay down some serious mileage. ---
Posted by: Toma B Jan 31 2006, 09:57 PM
Don't be sad...just think about what would "Victoria Rim close ups" look like...
Posted by: Shaka Jan 31 2006, 09:59 PM
I sure there will be if it's safe to approach and there is evidence of a vertical section. A layer in the hand is worth two in Victoria. Getting to Victoria is still a dream. Erebus is reality!
Posted by: Sunspot Feb 1 2006, 06:32 PM
According to the latest rover article at the Planetary Society website, they still plan to take what will probably be a quick look at the Mogollon Rim:
http://www.planetary.org/news/2006/0131_Mars_Exploration_Rovers_Update_Spirit.html
Posted by: Nirgal Feb 1 2006, 09:15 PM
looks like they finally decided to switch the priority to driving in order to seriously try to reach Victoria Crater
quote from
http://www.planetary.org/news/2006/0131_Mars_Exploration_Rovers_Update_Spirit.html
I'm very happy with this descision because I have always felt that the fact that the life time of the rovers is so limited should be a reason in favour of a more long-distance-oriented driving strategy rather than against it.
Now, after exceeding mission 'warranty' by about 10 times, the time has come for a more bold, exploratory strategy: Now we can really afford the risk of possibly losing some Sols of additional routine observations by trying to dedicate more of the remaining Sols for the only task of driving: Imagine just 40 Sols of driving-only at a prudent 30 meters/Sol would be about sufficient to cover the remaining kilometer or so to Victoria ! actually this is less time than that has been spent parked at the Olympia site alone.
Switching priorities to long-distance-driving means that maybe they will even decide to completely stow the IDD again for the duration of the Victoria Trek... unstowing it only at Victoria or if really new discoveries pop up along the way...
Other promising quotes from the TPS article:
The current Festoon-Studies are the very necessary and important conclusion
of the intensive Erebus-studies but after that it's time for exploring new horizons again
Posted by: RNeuhaus Feb 1 2006, 09:59 PM
The real interesting thing from Mogollon rim is the black or dark stones on its rim on the south side of Oppy's site. Maybe, they have already identified them as a rind?
Rodolfo
Posted by: tacitus Feb 1 2006, 10:12 PM
The current Festoon-Studies are the very necessary and important conclusion
of the intensive Erebus-studies but after that it's time for exploring new horizons again
My bet is it will be into March before they're done with Erebus completely.
Posted by: Nirgal Feb 2 2006, 12:53 AM
My bet is it will be into March before they're done with Erebus completely.
Yes D'Accord ! I, too think it's important to take all the time necessary to complete
the work at Erebus: may very well take another 4 weeks or so ...
What I'm looking forward too is that *after that* the Trip will go straight to Victoria
with prio one = driving and only stopping on really new discoveries
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 2 2006, 08:46 AM
with prio one = driving and only stopping on really new discoveries
IMO they will follow an approach similar to Spirit's.
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 2 2006, 11:04 AM
I will agree. If it hadn't been for the IDD problem we would have already been at the Mogollon Rim, finishing up and heading to the next target.
I can't see them _not_ stopping at the dark-toned bluff area at Mogollon; this feature is not like one we've seen before.
--Bill
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 16 2006, 02:01 PM
Presented here is a 3x vertical exaggeration from jvandriel's Sol 733 Pancam stitch. The Mogollon Rim outcrop is on the right, Payson is on the left. Payson seems to be an interesting feature, note the small landslip on the left side.
One possible route may be a straight shot right of center to the dark float (outcrop).
Do you realize that we've been eyeballing this area since before Oppy hit the Erebus Highway? This site ought to be geo-nirvana...
--Bill
Posted by: Bob Shaw Feb 16 2006, 02:32 PM
Anyone know what the strategy is for Opportunity regarding winter, and how that translates into travel plans?
Bob Shaw
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 16 2006, 02:45 PM
Bob Shaw
Good question (Doug, take note of that for the next interview).
On this flat terrain the option of a "hill's north slope" is ... not an option, and I guess the winter will hit Oppy on the middle of the travel to Victoria.
How this translates on travel plans: maybe shorter drives due to less available energy, and imo more important, very careful driving when traversing by the dunes/ripples. Just think of what could happen after an aborted drive with a bad tilt?
Posted by: Burmese Feb 16 2006, 03:33 PM
http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn8730
"Jacob Matijevic, the rover mission team's chief of engineering, also at JPL, said if possible, the team would like Opportunity to winter in Victoria Crater, a large impact crater 2500 to 3000 metres away. "That would have the same benefit as we saw in our investigations of Endurance Crater," Matijevic says.
The journey to Victoria Crater is likely to take at least three months, he adds."
Posted by: helvick Feb 16 2006, 03:47 PM
On this flat terrain the option of a "hill's north slope" is ... not an option, and I guess the winter will hit Oppy on the middle of the travel to Victoria.
How this translates on travel plans: maybe shorter drives due to less available energy, and imo more important, very careful driving when traversing by the dunes/ripples. Just think of what could happen after an aborted drive with a bad tilt?
Oppy has a slight benefit in terms of location at mid SH winter since it is so close to the equator (1.95deg S) vs Spirit at 14.57deg S. In practical terms this gives Oppy approximately 15% more insolation at mid winter. It also means that Oppy will have a slightly easier time finding optimal slopes from an insolation perspective, and finally the penalty for ending up in an unfavourable position is less than it will be for Spirit.
The precise amount of dust on the panels could still cause a major problem for either rover but all other things being equal Oppy has an easier environmental situation in SH winter time.
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 16 2006, 03:49 PM
Also since this site a only a couple of degrees South of the equator there is not much difference between the mid-summer and mid-winter altitude of the Sun (62 and 68 degrees, respectively) so it might seem that a north-facing slope isn't critical. But given that these angles represent a loss of 47% and 37% based on ther cosine function, it might require some north-facing slopes to increase the solar incidence on the solar panels.
The big problem is the orbital eccentricity. Mars is some 19% farther from the Sun in the Martian Southern Winter (which we are approaching) so the sunlight will be less intense by xx% so some time on a north-facing slope may be needed to top up the batteries.
--Bill
Posted by: djellison Feb 16 2006, 03:51 PM
Power 19% further out will be 41% lower, I think
Doug
Posted by: Phil Stooke Feb 16 2006, 05:26 PM
Burmese quoted a story from New Scientist,
"the team would like Opportunity to winter in Victoria Crater"
Oh come on! There's no way. I'd like to see it, certainly, but it can't possibly get there until spring.
Phil
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 16 2006, 05:35 PM
Not only that, but the rover would have to make the whole way around the crater to it's southern size (northern looking wall) AND find a path into the crater.
Posted by: Toma B Feb 16 2006, 06:59 PM
Oh, but we aren't going to Victoria just yet as Jim Bell says...
There are some more places around that they want to see, and maybe then they will decide that there are some more places nearby, after that there will be some more IDD to be done here, after that there will be some things that we have never seen before...
Opportunity will never reach Victoria Crater at this pace...PLEASE make up your mind and start DRIVING!!!
Posted by: helvick Feb 16 2006, 07:02 PM
The local microclimate and dust deposition\cleaning patterns are causing major differences at the moment it seems.http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn8730.
Spirit is currently operating with about 450 watt-hours per sol, but the available power has dropped by about 100 watt-hours over the past 50 sols, Jones says.
.....
The coming winter is less pressing for Opportunity, which is closer to the equator and is still operating with about 600 watt-hours of power each sol.
Time for me to go off and properly calculate some power curves for the onset of winter but my quick calculations tell me that Oppy will stay above about 330 whr throughout winter and has at least three months ahead when she should be able to manage an hour or more driving per sol. Spirit is losing between 10 and 15 whr per week at the moment so she really has to get to McCool hill within about 40 Sols or she risks getting stranded in a less than ideal spot unable to move.
Posted by: Nirgal Feb 16 2006, 07:45 PM
Thanks helvick !
I've been already anxiously waiting for your detailed update ... major concern was for Oppy not reaching the slopes of Victoria in time (whereas Spirit will have no problems to reach it's winter parking position)
... I thought it must come close to the 300 Watts "deadline" even for Oppy .... so the cited 330 W minimum for Oppy is encouraging ...
And, unfortunately, as for further cleaning events, as nice as they are, they are not something we can count on ...
Posted by: Marcel Feb 16 2006, 07:47 PM
B)-->
Opportunity will never reach Victoria Crater at this pace...PLEASE make up your mind and start DRIVING!!!
[/quote]
I can understand the frustration. I'd love to see the place as well: the possibility to reach it is there, and this will diminish every day that long drives south are postponed and mechanics and electronics are aging.
But (and it's said before often): This mission is not about pretty pictures, it's about science. About understanding what we see. Try to reconstruct what happened on this part of the surface. Relate morphology with rock/soil composition (while the cobalt source still radiates within workable levels, before it's out of operation), look for geologic context. And: do it as thoroughly as possible. This, combined with the knowledge that the quality of the scientific results is highly dependent on the quantity (that is: statistically reliable) AND te quality of the data (that is: complete, without forgetting to record just about everything that's within the capability of the instruments). And this costs time. A lot of it. And this is why we're not in Victoria (yet). It's a balance between continuing the trek across the line southward and feeding hunger for new terrain, and relating it to the knowledge that returning to a spot to fill a gap in the data is probably not going to be an option.
In other words: it's choosing between knowing some things for sure (like the prime target: pinning down water related processes), than a lot of things superficially.
Posted by: Nirgal Feb 16 2006, 08:16 PM
My feeling is that Victoria will offer both: "pretty pictures" *and* the most valuable science at the same time
just as it has been the case with the other long distance treks to Endurance, Columbia Hill Summit
and now Home Plate. Imagine we could be still turning every pebble at "Adirondack" but so far, each time we did take the "risk" of driving longer distances to new horizons, the reward has been a whole new chapter of discoveries there
Apart from accuracy and thouroughness It has always been also the Couriosity and the explorative spirit of trying new things and taking risks that have been the drving force behind science
Posted by: helvick Feb 16 2006, 08:29 PM
Victoria is apparently somewhere between 2500 and 3000m away depending on the route taken.
To see how realistic a target it is I'm making some assumptions:
1. Driving consumes approximately 100watts between the drive motors and navigation processing\imaging.
2. 0.5 cm/sec is a realistic speed for driving aggresively but with some care (so as to avoid another Purgatory).
3. Dust accumulation will cause additional power loss at a rate of 0.18% per Sol (this should be a worst case situation).
4. Oppy doesn't get stuck.
5. We start driving soon.
Opportunity should have enough power available over the next 94 sols (when power will drop just below 400 whr) to drive about 3300m.
To achieve that she would have to start soon and initially average around 50-60m per Sol. By the time she reaches Victoria she would be driving for about 18m per Sol.
I haven't factored in things like restricted Sols but there is a 10-30% margin in the above numbers depending on route and my calculations target reaching Victoria when power is still approx 400whr per Sol so she still has enough juice to do some real work\find a nice sunny ledge to park on for winter.
Posted by: Marcel Feb 16 2006, 08:37 PM
Which would make no sense, because there was nothing but volcanic rock there. Oppy however, is in a treamendous complex and interesting spot at the moment. This combined with the problems with her arm, and all the microscopic work makes that it's been a while around here. I must admit however, that continuing to another spot is about time.
Posted by: djellison Feb 16 2006, 08:44 PM
OR - outside the crater on the northern slope that approaches the rim ?
Remember the southern slope they had driving around the southern edge of endurance making Oppy very power-low (in SS's book)
Doug
Posted by: Marz Feb 16 2006, 10:48 PM
.... To achieve that she would have to start soon and initially average around 50-60m per Sol. By the time she reaches Victoria she would be driving for about 18m per Sol.
Yikes! 50m/Sol is pretty aggressive around Erebus. Maybe if the dunes flatten out a bit. The manuevering up to Erebus was pretty darn slow, with few drives being more than 20m.
Well, as Daffy Duck would sing, "you never know where you're goin' till ya get there!"
Posted by: Marslauncher Feb 17 2006, 02:20 AM
So didnt I read that we should have had a drive? hope the pictures come down soon!
I am itching to see new pictures!
John Cooke
Posted by: Shaka Feb 17 2006, 03:49 AM
I am itching to see new pictures!
John Cooke
There's an epidemic of that kind of pruritis, John. But the drive was aborted due to continuing arm stalls.
Latest JPL update. Can anybody calculate where this Zane Grey is, 36m from our present position? Is it the black rubble pile or is it the rim proper?
Posted by: bergadder Feb 17 2006, 04:23 AM
--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Toma B @ Feb 16 2006, 07:59 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Opportunity will never reach Victoria Crater at this pace...PLEASE make up your mind and start DRIVING!!!
I can understand the frustration. I'd love to see the place as well: the possibility to reach it is there, and this will diminish every day that long drives south are postponed and mechanics and electronics are aging.
But (and it's said before often): This mission is not about pretty pictures, it's about science.
We also need to remember that there is another Science that must be covered, and that is the science of protecting the JPL budget from manned spaceflight. At this time when money is been diverted away from science, its time of a show for the public, senate and any oversite group on that budget. And I think a great show would be Victoria Crater. Risk/reward tough call...
Posted by: Marslauncher Feb 17 2006, 05:38 AM
I fully support science days and investigation, I am just as eager as every one else to move on however , is there any consensus as to a work around for the arm stalls?
Thanks
John Cooke
Posted by: jamescanvin Feb 17 2006, 05:58 AM
Latest JPL update. Can anybody calculate where this Zane Grey is, 36m from our present position? Is it the black rubble pile or is it the rim proper?
The update also says
Lets hope nothing more has gone wrong!
And just when we thought we were leaving...
James
Posted by: tacitus Feb 17 2006, 07:11 AM
Are they still trying to stow the arm completely or in the new "safer" position above the solar panels for this longer drive?
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 17 2006, 08:56 AM
Latest JPL update. Can anybody calculate where this Zane Grey is, 36m from our present position? Is it the black rubble pile or is it the rim proper?
Zane Grey can't be the rim 'cause it's about 90m+ away.
Imo, it's one of those two outcrops at the first leg on this old route proposal. The current pancam view is basically the same; Oppy has barely moved around the point she was on the end of november.
|
Original post: http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=1462&view=findpost&p=28324
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 17 2006, 09:07 AM
The former.
Posted by: Sunspot Feb 17 2006, 09:33 AM
The tech probs are really stacking up...Im begining to think that Opportunity will spend her last days around Erebus.
Posted by: djellison Feb 17 2006, 09:43 AM
The tech probs are really stacking up...Im begining to think that Opportunity will spend her last days around Erebus.Mobility wise, Opportunity is in fairly good health. Once they get that arm stowed, we'll be under way I'm sure.
Doug
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 17 2006, 11:10 AM
I would agree with your placement of the Zane Grey outcrop. I might suspect that it is the lefthand outcrop-- look at the 3x vert exagg I posted yesterday and the left route looks less sandy.
This puts us a couple of Sols from that "Nirvana outcrop"...
--Bill
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 17 2006, 12:23 PM
This puts us a couple of driving Sols from that "Nirvana outcrop"...
Let's hope tosol's troubleshooting is ok and we have Oppy on the move for sol 736... just hope; I won't make any bet.
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 17 2006, 01:33 PM
"We'll get there eventually..."
<sigh>
--Bill
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 17 2006, 05:02 PM
I picked up a "proper" L2 Pancam today at the JPL site which shows better detail than the R1 we looked at yesterday. Slightly tweaked and sharpened, I'm sharing cropped views of the exposure at Mogollon with no vertical exaggeration and with 3x vertical exaggeration.
--Bill
Posted by: djellison Feb 17 2006, 05:10 PM
Looks like a little slice of a baby Burns Cliff in places.
Doug
Posted by: Marz Feb 17 2006, 07:55 PM
I was just surfing the sol 734 images and noticed one of them shows a dune that's rather dark:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/734/1P193345308EFF64NTP2446R2M1.JPG
Since it's closer than the cliffs, could this be the target Zane Grey?
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 17 2006, 08:06 PM
The dark-toned dune is Payson. Zane Grey is the light-toned patch at the right midground on the image you referenced.
--Bill
Posted by: Marcel Feb 17 2006, 08:09 PM
Doug
I don't understand why they completely stow the arm as soon as a long drive needs to be done. Why is this so important ? Do they really think something will break while the arm is in "half stowed" position (over the solar panel) ? They drive 5 mm's a second. It's not " bumping", it is like a snail creeping across the terrain ! I've been asking this to myself for a long time. Maybe i oversee something, but the risk of another winding breaking in the faulty joint (thereby completely disabling the possibility to UNstow the IDD for the rest of the mission) looks much higher to me, than the chance of breaking something because of driving in the alternative (half stowed) position. There are two primairy windings in these motors aren't there ? There's only one left. And forcing a higher current trough it at this stage (while materials are getting old) doesn't make sense to me. I'm puzzled. It has been unstowed AFTER a pretty bad situation of stalls and erronous behaviour. LEAVE IT THERE ! Or maybe i'm not informed well enough....
Posted by: djellison Feb 17 2006, 08:32 PM
If you hunt back in the movie archive at the JPL site, you'll see some rover driving videos - ditto the NOVA programs - and given that there's essentially a tiny tiny bit of suspension within the wheels but nothing else - it's quite a rough ride even over the fairly flat rocks and terrain we have here.
Given that suprisingly bumpy ride, the mass of the instruments on the IDD, and the leverage they'd have on the joints and motors when in the 'hover' position, there is a real risk of damage to IDD joints, motors, even the front of that array and the nearest instrument.
Hence the high-park for short drives, and the proper drive for longer driving campaigns.
Doug
Posted by: mars_armer Feb 17 2006, 09:54 PM
The simulations that have been run with an unstowed arm involve a single wheel sideslipping off a rock and free-falling some distance. This scenario isn't too unlikely, even when driving slowly. And Doug is right, the "suspension" is very hard so the rover and arm get a good jolt when that happens. The worst thing is that the unstowed arm gets thrown sideways as well.
The arm design was highly optimized to stay within a very tight mass budget (~4 kg for the arm, and the instrument package is ~2 kg). Because of those constraints, the arm was never designed to take these kinds of loads. A single-wheel drop off a 3-centimeter rock edge gets pretty close to the documented capability of the arm when in the hover-stow position.
Something else to remember is that the joint 1 winding failure was almost certainly caused by thermal cycling (remember the stuck heater on Oppy's shoulder). So the expectation is that the joint will fail completely from a thermal cycle, not from operation. So for longer drives, where they can't see the terrain in advance, it is considered fairly safe to stow the arm before driving and then unstow after the drive. (Of course, there's still the occasional stall because it's tricky operating the motor with a broken winding.)
Hope this helps explain the logic behind what they are doing.
Posted by: jamescanvin Feb 17 2006, 10:14 PM
The arm design was highly optimized to stay within a very tight mass budget (~4 kg for the arm, and the instrument package is ~2 kg). Because of those constraints, the arm was never designed to take these kinds of loads. A single-wheel drop off a 3-centimeter rock edge gets pretty close to the documented capability of the arm when in the hover-stow position.
Something else to remember is that the joint 1 winding failure was almost certainly caused by thermal cycling (remember the stuck heater on Oppy's shoulder). So the expectation is that the joint will fail completely from a thermal cycle, not from operation. So for longer drives, where they can't see the terrain in advance, it is considered fairly safe to stow the arm before driving and then unstow after the drive. (Of course, there's still the occasional stall because it's tricky operating the motor with a broken winding.)
Hope this helps explain the logic behind what they are doing.
Perfect!
I am surprised how tricky it seems to be operating the broken motor, I would have expected it to be very predictable. But then what do i know, I'm a scientist not an engineer!
James
Posted by: Jeff7 Feb 18 2006, 01:47 AM
I am surprised how tricky it seems to be operating the broken motor, I would have expected it to be very predictable. But then what do i know, I'm a scientist not an engineer!
James
They said that they're running the arm by giving it more current. I'd imagine that feeding it too much current all the time would just burn out something, or at the very least, heat it up.
Posted by: tacitus Feb 18 2006, 08:37 AM
I suppose one thing the stowing problems might mean is that the rover team may be less willing to unstow the arm and use it on passing terrain unless there is something really interesting to look at, meaning fewer stops on the way to Victoria Crater. That should please some people!
Posted by: mars_armer Feb 18 2006, 04:17 PM
Actually, the present strategy means the arm is never permanently stowed. It only gets stowed during a long drive, then immediately unstowed to the ready position at the end of the drive. This is to ensure that the arm is unstowed if/when the joint 1 motor finally gives out.
The joint 1 motor (with the broken winding) is difficult to operate because its electrical properties fluctuate as the motor goes through a turn, as the broken wire commutates. This only causes trouble when the motor is starting or stopping, as it has to overcome the magnetic detents.
Posted by: Cugel Feb 18 2006, 06:34 PM
The joint 1 motor (with the broken winding) is difficult to operate because its electrical properties fluctuate as the motor goes through a turn, as the broken wire commutates. This only causes trouble when the motor is starting or stopping, as it has to overcome the magnetic detents.
Question: does this mean that when the joint motor does fail and the arm can not be stowed anymore, there will be no more long drives for Opportunity? And can we conclude from this that the team has decided that a rover without IDD has less scientific value than a relatively static platform with IDD?
Posted by: helvick Feb 18 2006, 10:16 PM
I've taken the time to properly rework the current power generating capability of both rovers. You can see the charts in http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=1718&st=30&gopid=42243&# .
Opportunity really is in a very healthy power state right now and will continue to generate more than 457 whr/sol throughout the SH winter season. The chance of anything changing that before the onset of Spring begins to add dust back into the atmosphere is very low. Tau should begin to rise again around Sol 1000/November 16 2006 but by then insolation will be rising fast. The risk of a killer storm after that remains at around 20% but that's a long way off at the moment.
She has no particular need to rush to a wintering spot and should in general be able to drive for more than 90 minutes per Sol. That means that I'm pretty confident that she'll reach Victoria even if she is limited to 20m/sol provided nothing significant breaks. Given that I think it's fair to say the current caution with the arm is very prudent.
Spirit on the other hand absolutely has to get to a favourable wintering spot very soon or she'll find herself unable to move.
Posted by: RNeuhaus Feb 19 2006, 03:49 AM
The joint 1 motor (with the broken winding) is difficult to operate because its electrical properties fluctuate as the motor goes through a turn, as the broken wire commutates. This only causes trouble when the motor is starting or stopping, as it has to overcome the magnetic detents.
One solution for keeping the unstowed the arm with minimal harm due to the surface vibration caused by the unlevel surface and/or passing over any stones is that Oppy must look another ways that is sand. The sand surface are very, very smooth, it is very very nice to drive over that and it is almost alike to surf among sea waves. That is try to travel close to the ripples of sand if the center have outcrops.
Rodolfo
Posted by: hugh Feb 19 2006, 07:30 AM
I'm wondering about this too. I certainly hope not. Even without the IDD arm the rover still has all the cameras except the MI, plus the mini-TES. The RAT is at or near the end of its useful life. The whole point of having a rover is to have mobility, so to be mobile should have priority, and the sooner the better.
Posted by: djellison Feb 19 2006, 09:35 AM
And very 'Purgatory'
They were hunting for rock to drive on around Erebus ( remember the Erebus highway? ) - better to park the IDD, have a slightly rougher ride, but stick on the rock.Doug
Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Feb 19 2006, 09:13 PM
Probably get just a little bit more science done too, even if it's only photographing exposed bedrock close up while in transit. And I'm all for "transit" at this point. The more, the better.
Posted by: Nirgal Feb 19 2006, 10:27 PM
Question: does this mean that when the joint motor does fail and the arm can not be stowed anymore, there will be no more long drives for Opportunity? And can we conclude from this that the team has decided that a rover without IDD has less scientific value than a relatively static platform with IDD?
I agree completely !
when one thinks about it: one single Rover that is capable of doing medium to long distance drives is kind of equivalent to *multiple* static space probes landed on different places of the planet
so in essence 1 Rover = several "Viking-type" static platforms
with this huge, inherent advantage of a Rover (compared to all former static probes) in mind I have been
asking myself why with the MER mission the "static operations" always seemed to have gained clear priority
over the roving (mobile) operations ... and with the new unstowed-drive policy, again, the priority seems clear: take the risk of jeopardazing the whole (mobility of the)rover in favour of the IDD ..
If the priority was on Roving/Mobility instead, the strategy could have been to keep the arm stowed completely for the safest driving possible and make use of the arm much more "parsimoniously" to save it for less frequent, (but potentially more interesting) further targets along the way ...
Posted by: Sunspot Feb 20 2006, 12:41 AM
We're a couple of days away from spending 3 months in the same location.
Posted by: alan Feb 20 2006, 12:51 AM
I agree completely !
when one thinks about it: one single Rover that is capable of doing medium to long distance drives is kind of equivalent to *multiple* static space probes landed on different places of the planet
so in essence 1 Rover = several "Viking-type" static platforms
with this huge, inherent advantage of a Rover (compared to all former static probes) in mind I have been
asking myself why with the MER mission the "static operations" always seemed to have gained clear priority
over the roving (mobile) operations ... and with the new unstowed-drive policy, again, the priority seems clear: take the risk of jeopardazing the whole (mobility of the)rover in favour of the IDD ..
If the priority was on Roving/Mobility instead, the strategy could have been to keep the arm stowed completely for the safest driving possible and make use of the arm much more "parsimoniously" to save it for less frequent, (but potentially more interesting) further targets along the way ...
I suppose for some on the science team a rover without the IDD is just a Mars Tourism Rover.
Posted by: tacitus Feb 20 2006, 02:23 AM
Well the main objective of the mission is to find evidence of water on Mars. Without the IDD that mission is severely hampered. It's a judgement call they are continually having to make but it seems to me that for now they are still putting the future use of the IDD ahead of zooming off to Victoria.
It's a tough spot to be in, but I suspect they will continue to baby the arm until they're done with Erebus. With a significant vertical rock face within easy reach, they want to make sure they still have the IDD available to examine it. After that, perhaps then they will make Victoria number one priority.
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 20 2006, 02:48 AM
It would be nice to have the IDD instruments, but with reconnaisance geology the primary thing one needs is boots and eyes (ie, a mobile Rover with functional Pancams); the handlens and scratchplate are useful but not essential. Oppy needs to stow the IDD and get to the next outcop...
--Bill
Posted by: ElkGroveDan Feb 20 2006, 03:17 AM
--Bill
I agree with you Bill, but I should point out that without the IDD our science in Endurance would have consisted of a lot of pictures of pretty stripes along the cliffs. The rules of superposition are kind of useless on an alien world without a means to put it all in context. (Wouldn't it be nice if a future mission had an isotopic absolute dating instrument?) Although now that we have some details on Endurance's layers, I'm guessing that we will be able to visually correlate those same layers in Victoria. But of course, the hope is we will find some deeper, older layers we haven't looked at yet. If those layers are chock full of rotini beastie fossils, I'll sure want to have the MI working
I would say though that if the Pancam was the last functioning device on Oppy, it sure would be poetic fate for Steve Squyers.
Posted by: neb Feb 20 2006, 03:21 AM
--Bill
Bill: I am in total agreement. They need to find a way to stow it and get moving again. I doubt we will find anything so totally different that we can't visually understand it. Ben
Posted by: Shaka Feb 20 2006, 04:46 AM
Ahhhh. I think I detect a gauntlet hurled to the dust! Visual vs. Analytical Geology.
I love it!I wonder how that debate might have fared in Gusev Crater - up until we arrived at Home Plate.
I wonder if Victoria will become the HP of Meridiani.
P.S. I hope we are all praying fervently for the recovery of Exploratorium. Where there's life there's hope.
Posted by: Toma B Feb 20 2006, 07:03 AM
This question should be re-posted in "Jim Bell Q'n'a" topic...
I would like to hear answer to that...
Posted by: djellison Feb 20 2006, 08:34 AM
If the IDD breaks, then do what can be done with where-ever it is, and then just start driving. If it breaks - so what ,it's expired anyway.
Doug
Posted by: hugh Feb 20 2006, 08:39 AM
I suppose so, I just wonder if the fixation on water isn’t compromising other science objectives -like documenting as many types of surface feature as possible. There seems to be a bias operating in favour of studying subtle small-scale features (mostly water deposition evidence) and against studying large scale ones. Not trying to stir the pot but -is the purpose of this mission to look for support for the hypothesis that there was once standing water on Mars, or is it to characterize the surface of Mars as well as possible?
Posted by: djellison Feb 20 2006, 09:12 AM
Unquestionably the former.
Don't confuse scientific aspirations with engineering limitations. What the scientists would like to do is not always possible.
Doug
Posted by: jvandriel Feb 20 2006, 11:50 AM
A panoramic view of Mogollon.
Taken on Sol 734 with the L2 pancam.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 20 2006, 12:20 PM
I can see the rationale for their current actions: the IDD may fail soon and become history, so they are trying to get most detailed information on the wonderful sedimentary structures while they can. But Jimminy Cricket, we've been at this site forever-and-a-day and we need to get to the next outcrop which might well be the Holy Grail of this region.
I'd say that they are (or should be) studying the Geology to find evidence of water.
--Bill
Posted by: JTN Feb 20 2006, 02:00 PM
Could IDD failure endanger the rover's other functions?
(e.g., if it snaps, it could foul the wheels or something)
Posted by: jabe Feb 20 2006, 02:09 PM
(e.g., if it snaps, it could foul the wheels or something)
I'm curious if the arm is snapped off and wires get "crossed" can they isolate the system so it isn't a constant power drain..
oh the worries we have for the rovers even though they should have died a LONG time ago..oops..hope I didn't jinx them..
jb
Posted by: djellison Feb 20 2006, 03:11 PM
(e.g., if it snaps, it could foul the wheels or something)
I guess it could - it's not the sort of situation I imagine they'd want to get in to, but there's nothing they could to to 'jetison' the IDD
Doug
Posted by: centsworth_II Feb 20 2006, 03:28 PM
If the IDD breaks while extended they could drive backwards, dragging it along, taking care not to snag it on a rock.
Posted by: odave Feb 20 2006, 03:31 PM
I hate contributing more negative waves to the discussion, but with all the recent hubbub about the NASA budget proposal, would funding for MER get cut if Oppy's IDD were to go out? I suppose a bean counter might think that with Oppy's capability impaired, it should get less resources, if not shut down?
No doubt everyone on the MER team would fight that kind of decision tooth and nail...
Posted by: ElkGroveDan Feb 20 2006, 04:28 PM
[/i][/color]
Eagle Crater was the HP of Meridiani.
If they have the ability to adjust the current to just one motor in the complex arm, then my guess is yes, they have the ability to isolate any circuit.
That said, a lot of things may happen, but short of a direct hit from a meteorite, I can't imagine anything in Opportunity's present environment that would cause the arm to "snap off". The present arm joint concerns center around functionality. This is a craft that was designed to mechanically withstand the g-forces of an interplanetary launch as well as the subtantial g's of the air bag bounce and roll. I am told there are MER's made of LEGO, but this isn't one of them.
Posted by: djellison Feb 20 2006, 04:50 PM
No doubt everyone on the MER team would fight that kind of decision tooth and nail...
I think as long as one rover is driving, then the money will still come, all be it in increasingly smaller ammounts. If we end up with a dead rover in terms of mobility, then there's only so long one can justify using it (a purgatory type of time probably- 3 months maybe ) - at that point you have to admit that there's not much more to do ( even JB said they were running out of things to do here at Erebus ) - and start a very restricted mode of operation - just occasional contacts etc.
Remember - they fund MER, not Spirit and Opportunity - it's one pot of cash, so as long as one is still doing good stuff, I think the money will still flow. The backlash and outrage if they do otherwise would 1) be audible in Washington from here in Leicester and 2) be huge in the US as well.
Doug
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 20 2006, 05:30 PM
Will we see "Oppy leaves Olympia (aka Purgatory II)" scene, take #3, tomorrow?
Just a guess/hope, no planning data yet at the tracking web.
Posted by: sranderson Feb 20 2006, 07:28 PM
Unfortunately, we haven't found anything new with Opportunity in about a year. I can set up my geology shop at a random 2-foot exposure of layered rock near my house, study it ad nauseum for months and not really learn anything about the big picture of even the local area, let alone the whole planet. I probably won't be able to tell if there is water on the Earth, unless it rains while I am there. Are we trying to prove that if you look long enough at a single grain of sand, you can derive the whole structure of the universe?
There has to be a balance between moving on to new things and making sure you don't miss anything. If Lewis and Clarke were so focused on not missing any detail, they would have never got more than a few miles outside of St. Louis. They missed a lot of things. They knew that they had to miss them if they wanted to get the big picture.
By studying every single rock that appears interesting, you are thowing away the chance at finding great new things -- especially at this stage of the mission where the local area has already been characterized in detail.
The basic philosophy over the last 10 months has been a grave error -- a waste of 10 vital months on Mars.
The rovers have wheels for a reason. You are likely to increase the knowledge gained by orders of magnitude for every mile you drive.
In this type of exploration you must understand, acknowledge, and accept that you will miss some things. But on average, what you gain from looking at new things will vastly surpass what you miss.
Scott
.
Posted by: djellison Feb 20 2006, 08:00 PM
Again - you're making the mistake in assuming the scientists CHOSE to stop at Purgatory and Erebus. They didn't. These are situations forced upon them by engineering limitations. There is no choice to be made. Listen to Jim Bell - they WANT to leave Erebus, they WANT to get moving, they WANT to get to Victoria JUST as much as anyone else.
To say they've learnt nothing in the last year is an horrific underestimated of what Opportunity has been up to.
An no one knows that more than the MER team. Look at the progress they made when engineering allowed them to! 220M in a single day - that's HUGE. They barely stopped at Viking, Voyager, Vostok, Naturaliste, Argo, Arvin, Jason, James Caird, nor way back at Anatolia or Fram.....and when they did stop for science when first getting to some Erebus outcrop, they found a new previously unseen coating on the rocks adding more recent data to the story of water.
Look at Spirit, listen to Jim talk about how they totally passed up some AMAZING targets between El Dorado and Home Plate - they utterly utterly RACED that distance, these guys know how and when to give it the berries for covering ground. When they can - when it is appropriate - they do.
There is a difference between wanting to do something, and being ABLE to do something. Only the people who designed, built, and control these vehicles know their engineering limitations and know how much they can or can not do at any time. Criticism is unjustified.
Everyone, EVERYONE wants to foot-to-the-floor-to-Victoria. But just because you want something badly, doesnt make it an engineering posibility. It's that simple.
Doug
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 20 2006, 08:14 PM
The basic philosophy over the last 10 months has been a grave error -- a waste of 10 vital months on Mars.
<snip>
Scott
For the most part I agree with what you've just said, but I don't think that the past few months have been a grave error. Since leaving the Heatshield Oppy made good progress until getting mired at Purgatory. The mission lost a couple of months getting free again, and Oppy then made good progress to the Erebus Highway and around the north Erebus rim and dunefield to Olympia. I can justify some time spent to study the Burns formation at this site since it is markedly different than what we saw at Eagle and Endurance. Oppy spent a proper amount of time working from site to site here at Olympia. But the problem with the IDD developed and it is unfortunate that we've spent 90 days in one spot. I'm not going to make a call to say if the time spent evaluating the IDD was justifiable, we just don't have the background that went into that decision. When the IDD does get stowed properly, we'll make it to the Mogollon Rim and Payson area, study them and make our way to Victoria.
I wish that we hadn't had the bad luck and lost 5 months, but that is the way it is.
--Bill
Posted by: neb Feb 20 2006, 08:22 PM
Taken on Sol 734 with the L2 pancam.
jvandriel
Great panorama: It exhibits the point about visual analysis. Has anyone discussed the semi-circular fractures visible in this image.. We have been seeing them for some time and IMO are geologic anomalies that may have a bearing on the history of what we are viewing.
Posted by: Sunspot Feb 20 2006, 08:54 PM
I guess they're going to have to make some tough decisions on what kind of mission they want to run with Opportunity now - in light of all the technical problems with the IDD arm, the days of driving and just deploying the IDD if they see something interesting seem to be gone sadly.
Posted by: sranderson Feb 20 2006, 09:13 PM
Doug
I was one of the guys who helped design and build the vehicles. The philosophy is clearly biased way too far on the side of studying every grain of dust to death. I am also concerned that we no longer have the A-team making decisions on a day-to-day basis. The result is many lost sols.
Scott
Posted by: neb Feb 20 2006, 09:15 PM
I wish that we hadn't had the bad luck and lost 5 months, but that is the way it is.
--Bill
I think you can guess who the geologists are. I agree with Scott, the chemistry of a rock doesn't reveal much unless you view it in as large a context as possible. I am not big on correlating wide spread outcrops based on chemistry.
Posted by: djellison Feb 20 2006, 09:43 PM
Then you'll know and understand perfectly that the scientists would love to make progress, but it makes no engineering sense to do things like get more stuck in a sand dune, or irreperably damage the IDD.
You want them to rush the procedure out of Purgatory and get stuck even more?
You want them to drive in a way that risks damaging the IDD beyond use or crank the current at that shoulder joint till it burns out?
YES - we all want to make good progress, but there are times when one simply can not do so.
Another 100 engineers on the case, and perhaps the purgatory and IDD situations could have been worked faster, but they're not around to do that, the money isnt there. Say "we'll need X engineers to keep running" - then the financial 'ask' for further extensions is too big and it's not going to happen.
Lest we forget, it's only by hanging around at Erebus that we discovered the potential festooning. Another part of the jigsaw. We'd never had a panorama taken in all filters, we do now. These are not 'lost sols' - they're simply sols not doing what you want them to be doing. That's not lost, it's just different.
I still maintain you dramatically underestimate what has been discovered at Erebus, and given the time it takes, there will be many a scientific paper which makes reference to the work here.
Again - yes - driving is great and we'd all love to see much much more of it, but it's a case of what is possible with the resources ( on both planets ) available, not what we 'want'.
Doug
Posted by: Nirgal Feb 20 2006, 10:45 PM
You want them to rush the procedure out of Purgatory and get stuck even more?
Doug
Very good points Doug !
also thanks for pointing out the case for Spirits long distance driving which demonstrates that
they have indeed prioritized driving over "studying" with much of Spirit's recently ...
I too believe that every single day spent at Purgatory was a clever and valuable investment because
it lead to the development of a safe inter-dune driving technique that would have allowed us to safely cover 20 to 40 meters per sol in the middle of the dunes without the risk of being stuck again ...
so any rushing or premature driving in this stage would have been suicide ...
The criticsism, if at all, is not against the disaster management, which has been outstanding
(great kudos to the JPL team for getting us out of purgatory, can't be said often enough
However, what I don't understand is that they did not make use of this great new driving strategy
WHEN IT WAS STILL POSSIBLE to cover more terrain in the mean time (since purgatory, at 30 meter per day in 90 days we could have been already visiting places 3 kilometers apart (including Victoria) !
... and still would have had the time for occasional stops, just with more selective and parsimonious
use of the IDD...
After all we knew that the time was limited ... now, of course, it is too late to "rush" ... the critical
situations have to be fixed first with absolute priority (as Steve S. use to say: first rule: don't make things worse)
I really hope if we do re-gain nornal driving operations, that we use the "healthy periods" for as much driving as possible
Posted by: djellison Feb 20 2006, 11:08 PM
two posts deleted, one that was a personal attack and contributed nothing but flame to the thread, and one that replied to it.
Healthy debate is welcome here. Unsubstantiated ranting and attacts at members have not, nor ever will be.
Doug
Posted by: jamescanvin Feb 20 2006, 11:30 PM
oh the worries we have for the rovers even though they should have died a LONG time ago..oops..hope I didn't jinx them..
jb
If they have the ability to adjust the current to just one motor in the complex arm, then my guess is yes, they have the ability to isolate any circuit.
I don't think that's the case. Remember the stuck joint heater cannot be isolated independently, the only way to turn it off is to effectively turn the whole rover off! (deep sleep)
I suspect that if the arm did snap off or start dragging along the ground (heaven forbid!) there would be a serious risk of shorting the battery out, which would kill Oppy pretty much instantly I would imagine.
Posted by: hugh Feb 20 2006, 11:37 PM
I agree, and I don’t think BillyMERs rather cringe-inducing post added anything to the discussion.
Looking at the orbital photos of the area around Victoria, there may be some non-engineering reasons for the slow pace. Maybe the thinking is that, since there are few reachable science targets after Victoria, areas of interest en route to it should be studied as much as possible. Although there appears to be a ramp into the crater there is no guarantee that the rover can use it to get in. If they couldn’t enter Victoria once they got there, they would be in very bland terrain -from orbit it resembles the “parking lot” between Eagle and Endurance. There would be few attractive targets within reasonable driving distance once they documented the rim, did remote sensing and so on, so from that point of view it may make sense to take their time..
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 21 2006, 01:36 AM
Ben, those circular fractures or plates have been driving us nuts for months. Theywere first noticed on the Erebus north rim and the speculation was that they might be related to eroded small impact features; I don't know what current thought is.
Hopefully they will get the IDD problem resolved and get on the way to the next area. I'm still curious about the dark basal unit in the Mogollon area.
--Bill
Posted by: ElkGroveDan Feb 21 2006, 03:53 AM
Darn! I hate it when I miss those.
Posted by: neb Feb 21 2006, 04:16 AM
Hopefully they will get the IDD problem resolved and get on the way to the next area. I'm still curious about the dark basal unit in the Mogollon area.
--Bill
Thanks for the response; Something like those circular cracks we created in plate glass windows with errant pellets from our air rifles. I agree about that basal unit also and wonder if the pile of dark rocks which we may never see could be related. maybe the crater penetrated into basalt??
Posted by: Bill Harris Feb 21 2006, 04:37 AM
I misleadingly call the dark unit "basal" when it clearly isn't. Erebus was not deep enough to punch though the entire Burns Formation and we are approaching the topographic highpoint of this area. The dark cobbles we've been seeing have been described as basaltic so there is the possibility that this dark unit is also. We honestly won't know what it is until Oppy places her boots upon it.
--Bill
Posted by: Buck Galaxy Feb 21 2006, 08:02 AM
Or they could go balls to the wall south after Victoria. There's a massive crater about 10 km to the south east of Victoria:
Hey one can dream :-)
Posted by: climber Feb 21 2006, 01:29 PM
so in essence 1 Rover = several "Viking-type" static platforms
Did somebody realized that today is SOL 1500 if you add both rovers ? That give us 8.73 meter per sol as a mean. Not bad, eh ?
Posted by: djellison Feb 21 2006, 01:33 PM
Another 9 hours away till the sols add up - but yup, I was thinking about that a few days ago, and Steve's comments last year about reaching 1000 sols.
Also -we're coming up to 150,000 images - 67,237 + 78,008 = 145,000. About an average of 96 images per sol.
Doug
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 21 2006, 01:37 PM
<snipped link to a >500k image>
Hey one can dream :-)
May I suggest direct links to BIG images should be avoided?
Posted by: djellison Feb 21 2006, 02:08 PM
Links to them - not a problem. Having them inline of the thread, not so great for those without BBand
Doug
Posted by: imran Feb 21 2006, 04:28 PM
Hey one can dream :-)
Yeah that's the one I mentioned when Oppy was putting together these record drives. Right now with the way things are going, they will consider themselves lucky just to get to Victoria.
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 21 2006, 05:26 PM
The sun is setting at Meridiani for Opportunity on its sol 739.
And the plan for tomorrow, according to the tracking web is:
No single sequence, "tau", "sky radiance", nothing.
Except for when they had DB issues, it's the first time I have seen this.
Posted by: Oersted Feb 22 2006, 12:20 AM
Just want to repeat that the arm was safely stowed during launch and EDL, so that won't say much about whether it can take these bumps in an unstowed position.
Posted by: RNeuhaus Feb 22 2006, 02:28 AM
Forget about the Purgatory trauma. It was due a big mistake due to a blind driving. Now, it will be even most difficult to be happened. The rovers has already learned of it. Never drive with Hazardous Avoidance System. It is not perfect to detect the danger of surface specially of the sand dunes or ripples. The purgatory cases will not occur all the way along to Victoria but in some special situations.
Rodolfo
Posted by: djellison Feb 22 2006, 08:36 AM
Indeed - physically bolted to the WEB as well.
Doug
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 22 2006, 09:09 AM
Just checked again the tracking web.
Another driving attempt is planned for tosol.
740 p1201.04 2 0 0 2 0 4 front_haz_penultimate_1_bpp_crit19
740 p1214.05 2 0 0 2 0 4 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
740 p1214.05 2 0 0 2 0 4 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
740 p1301.03 2 0 0 2 0 4 rear_haz_penultimate_1bpp_pri16
740 p1312.06 2 0 0 2 0 4 rear_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
740 p1615.03 10 0 0 10 0 20 navcam_5x1_az_18_3_bpp
740 p2448.06 10 0 0 10 2 22 pancam_drv_dir_5x1_L2R2
740 p2600.07 2 2 0 0 2 6 pancam_tau
740 p2600.07 2 2 0 0 2 6 pancam_tau
PS: Doug, would you mind to include a new smilie? Something like someone praying with a candle on the hands...
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 22 2006, 04:27 PM
A quick look at the tracking web shows some post-drive haz and navcams have been downlinked (no access to the actual pics). The new site/drive id stamped on the filenames is 64NV; the previous was 64NT.
Unless I'm missing something (let's hope so) it represents a very short movement, if any.
Posted by: imran Feb 22 2006, 07:42 PM
One small step for Oppy, one giant leap for mankind.
Posted by: climber Feb 22 2006, 07:47 PM
...and the other way around !!!
Posted by: jamescanvin Feb 23 2006, 04:59 AM
740 p1201.04 2 0 0 2 0 4 front_haz_penultimate_1_bpp_crit19
740 p1214.05 2 0 0 2 0 4 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
740 p1214.05 2 0 0 2 0 4 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
740 p1301.03 2 0 0 2 0 4 rear_haz_penultimate_1bpp_pri16
740 p1312.06 2 0 0 2 0 4 rear_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
740 p1615.03 10 0 0 10 0 20 navcam_5x1_az_18_3_bpp
740 p2448.06 10 0 0 10 2 22 pancam_drv_dir_5x1_L2R2
740 p2600.07 2 2 0 0 2 6 pancam_tau
740 p2600.07 2 2 0 0 2 6 pancam_tau
741 p1214.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
741 p1214.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
741 p1301.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_penultimate_1bpp_pri16
741 p1312.06 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
Driving two sols in a row! When was the last time THAT happened on this side of the planet!
Hoping...
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 23 2006, 08:32 AM
741 p1214.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
741 p1214.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
741 p1301.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_penultimate_1bpp_pri16
741 p1312.06 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
"Oppy leaves Olympia (aka Purgatory II)" scene, take #4.
Cross your fingers...
WRT yestersol move, the pancam "stamps" on the tracking web confirm the rover is (almost) at the same point.
Posted by: djellison Feb 23 2006, 01:01 PM
I'm seing new images via MMB
Doug
Posted by: Sunspot Feb 23 2006, 01:17 PM
It is in the same spot isnt it? They've deployed the IDD again.
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/f/740/1F193877471EFF64NVP1214R0M1.HTML
Posted by: Analyst Feb 23 2006, 01:25 PM
It's a picture from Sol 740, (NV), before the drive (if it happened).
Posted by: Sunspot Feb 23 2006, 01:29 PM
ahhhhhh ok...we'll have to wait until tomorrow to see what happened with the drive lol
Posted by: Bob Shaw Feb 23 2006, 01:58 PM
'One long stop for Oppy, one giant sleep for Marskind...'
ZzzZZZzzzZZzzzz...
Bob Shaw
Posted by: mhoward Feb 23 2006, 02:13 PM
I hope you're right, but as far as I can see from the images that have come down, NV was the drive on Sol 740, it was just a slight bump, and they did redeploy the IDD after that. Maybe something will come down tosol (741) to clarify what's going on.
Edit: Can I change my bet on when "the drive" will happen? 743.
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 23 2006, 02:29 PM
It's a post-drive image.
Edited: Ooops, I didn't see your last post, Michael.
Edit: Can I change my bet on when "the drive" will happen? 743.
Tosol is planned as driving sol again. Downlink should start in about 1h.
Posted by: Analyst Feb 23 2006, 02:37 PM
Post drive concerning the sol 740 drive. But before the Sol 741 drive.
Analyst
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 23 2006, 03:39 PM
Some sol 741 data was downlinked but nothing related to driving. Besides, the drive imaging sequences seems to not have been executed:
know, and if important, the PEL. update the SSF list
/home/mersci/pan/B/ops/Sol_all_seq_list.txt as appropriate)
Data products:
Number Number
Number Number Still not (yet)
Sol Seq.Ver Requested Created on Rover Created Description
--- --------- --------- ------- --------- ----------- -----------
741 p0715.03 20 0 0 20 navcam_5x1_az_198_3_bpp
741 p1201.04 4 0 0 4 front_haz_penultimate_1_bpp_crit19
741 p1214.05 4 0 0 4 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
741 p1214.05 4 0 0 4 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
741 p1301.03 4 0 0 4 rear_haz_penultimate_1bpp_pri16
741 p1312.06 4 0 0 4 rear_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
741 p1615.03 20 0 0 20 navcam_5x1_az_18_3_bpp
741 p2090.02 12 0 0 12 pancam_cal_targ_L247R27
741 p2102.13 7 7 7 0 pancam_isc_voc_cal_L267
741 p2104.10 7 7 7 0 pancam_mtes_cal_target_L267
741 p2111.05 28 28 28 0 pancam_cal_targ_L234567Rall
741 p2449.06 18 0 0 18 pancam_drv_dir_4x1_L2R2
741 p2460.06 28 28 28 0 pancam_frontforegrnd_sub_L234567Rall
741 p2600.07 6 0 0 6 pancam_tau
741 p2600.07 6 0 0 6 pancam_tau
741 p2631.01 13 13 13 0 pancam_sky_spot_L234567R34567
So, I would say ... "scrubbed".
Posted by: Tesheiner Feb 23 2006, 09:33 PM
*** EXTRA *** EXTRA ***
Just checked again the tracking web... and there seems to be GOOD NEWS.
The data confirms Oppy moved on sol 741 and the current drive id changed from NV to TI. This looks like a significant drive but, for the time being, there are no images available.
Cross your fingers and stay tuned.
Posted by: Toma B Feb 24 2006, 06:35 AM
Cross your fingers and stay tuned.
I will...
Thanks for these regular updates Tesheiner...
Posted by: jvandriel Feb 27 2006, 06:23 PM
A panoramic view of Mogollon.
Taken with the L7 pancam on Sol 744.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: Ant103 Mar 1 2006, 08:47 AM
Hi!
Here is a color view of Mogollon Rim. The second is a classic view from Pancam, and the first is composed of two images : the view of Mogollon, and a view of the sky taken last year, with the L234567 filter wheels. What do you think about it?
|
|
Posted by: Bob Shaw Mar 1 2006, 01:48 PM
Here is a color view of Mogollon Rim. The second is a classic view from Pancam, and the first is composed of two images : the view of Mogollon, and a view of the sky taken last year, with the L234567 filter wheels. What do you think about it?
Ant:
An interesting sky - but the textural change is a bit sharp!
Here's a slightly stretched sky from earlier in the mission, in an autostitched (and slightly cloned) Endurance.
Bob Shaw
|
Posted by: dilo Mar 1 2006, 09:31 PM
An interesting sky - but the textural change is a bit sharp!
Here's a slightly stretched sky from earlier in the mission, in an autostitched (and slightly cloned) Endurance.
Bob Shaw
Wow, Bob, these aren't clouds, this is the Great Mars Storm!
Posted by: jamescanvin Mar 2 2006, 01:50 AM
Payson - Sol 744 - L257
Two versions - one colour stretched to bring out the variations.
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~jcanvin/mer/index.html#B0744
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~jcanvin/mer/index.html#B0744
James
P.S. A redder sky for dilo. Better?
Posted by: jvandriel Mar 2 2006, 08:20 PM
A 360 degree panoramic view at Mogollon.
Taken with the L0 navcam on Sol 745.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: jvandriel Mar 3 2006, 01:04 PM
Here is the 360 degree panoramic view from Sol 747.
Taken with the R0 navcam.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: jvandriel Mar 3 2006, 01:22 PM
The road ahead for Opportunity.
An L2 pancam view on Sol 747.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: AndyG Mar 3 2006, 02:01 PM
An L2 pancam view on Sol 747.
...Victoria is about 17 degrees across at this range, above a Pancam's width, and lies just over 2km away. I strongly suspect we'll be seeing it in a few drives' time, possibly from the gap between the two rises at the end of the exposed rock to the right of centre of this image?
Andy
Posted by: Shaka Mar 8 2006, 12:55 AM
And Oppy has left the buildin'! Is back on the sand, headed southerly and I think I spy with my little eye Mogollon in the distance! http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/navcam/2006-03-07/1N195035241EFF64%23%23P0686L0M1.JPG
Who's got a needle and thread?
Posted by: jamescanvin Mar 8 2006, 01:25 AM
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/navcam/2006-03-07/1N195035241EFF64%23%23P0686L0M1.JPGNice
I see the drive number in the filenames is broken again though...
Posted by: Ant103 Mar 8 2006, 08:55 AM
Good morning (it's morning now in France...)
I've just made this approximate true color image of a part of Mogollon rim, taken on Sol 748 :
|
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 8 2006, 10:01 AM
Here is the forward-looking navcam panorama taken after yestersol (753) drive.
|
And this is, imho, the aproximate position after drive.
|
(Navcam mosaic taken on sol 742)
I'll wait for the back-looking navcam pics to confirm that and then I guess a polar pan (Phil?) would be helpful in order to plot the actual position on the route map.
Edited: Initial estimation was wrong. Changed the image with a new one.
Posted by: Nirgal Mar 8 2006, 10:43 AM
|
|
wonderful view pver the south west of Erebus !
in the mean time I finished another color panorama of the Payson Cliff
http://mitglied.lycos.de/user73289/misc/oppy_n745b_col_c.jpg
Posted by: paxdan Mar 8 2006, 11:06 AM
I hope you dont mind but i've created a polar from the pan you colourized.
|
Posted by: Astro0 Mar 8 2006, 01:30 PM
in the mean time I finished another color panorama of the Payson Cliff
Fantastic image Nirgal.
I really love your "Alien Landscapes" series.
I think they should produce a coffee table book from these.
It would be great if we could collect all of these poster/book style images in one place.
I think that 'aldo' at marsgeo was going to do something about that?
Hey 'aldo', are you still out there?
Cheers
Astro0
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 8 2006, 03:21 PM
Imo, this is the best shot (*) taken at/around Erebus.
|
(navcam pano taken on sol 753)
(*) I mean the shot taken by the rover, not my panorama!
Phil, could you please make a polar of this?
Posted by: mhoward Mar 8 2006, 03:32 PM
So long, Payson.
http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=109669789&context=photostream&size=l
Posted by: paxdan Mar 8 2006, 03:57 PM
(navcam pano taken on sol 753)
Here is the pan in polar, i'm sure Phil will do a better job than I.
|
Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 8 2006, 04:09 PM
Anything to oblige, my dear chap... oh darn, Paxdan beat me to it.
So I'll post two versions! The second is derived from the first by using the Spherize filter in Photoshop.
This is a great view, a really nice shot out over Erebus. I bet those dunes are causing some concern, though - that's why I said earlier that spending the winter on Victoria's northern rim was unrealistic. It's going to be a lot of small drives.
Phil
|
|
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 8 2006, 04:49 PM
Thanks paxdan & Phil, your help is appreciated!
I've just updated the http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=681&view=findpost&p=44640.
Additionally, I tried to put some real headings on the sol 753 navcam panorama, based on Phil's polar projection, in order to better locate Victoria (seen or not). Results on http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=1443&view=findpost&p=44643.
Posted by: SigurRosFan Mar 8 2006, 09:06 PM
Oh yes, Tesheiner. It's a fantastic view over Mogollon Rim. Wow!!
Thanks Paxdan and Phil!
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 9 2006, 05:05 PM
Sticking to the "... and points South" part of this thread's title, here is the sol 753 pancam mosaic with some annotations, in which I tried to correlate some outcrops seen on this pano with what is seen on MOC imagery.
|
At some point of the rim, the rover will have to say "adiós" to Erebus and take the long (and tricky, imho) way to Victoria. Which will be this point? B? C? D?
I would say C is a good start point -- there are some reference/waypoint outcrops further south -- but there is not a straight path from B to C.
Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 9 2006, 05:53 PM
I've been mulling over the same issues recently but haven't gotten around to annotating the MOC image. I am in agreement with what you have noted and that the the road away from Erebus will indeed be a sticky wicket.
The problem is that Oppy is getting into a field of orographic dunes (caused by disruption of the wind by the crater rim) and this feature has been to the west of Erebus since we arrived at Olympia. There is not a clear path between points B and C along the rim. Oppy might be able to skirt the dunes by driving on the rim bedrock and rubble/talus but there is a major dune just northwest of point C that may be the major barrier. Otherwise, point C is a good jumping-off point.
The road Southward may involve heading West from this "Payson promontory" to the smaller ripple fields and south-trending linear troughs; this is reminiscent of the good-going when we took that NW detour around the North Erebus Dnnefield. Once Oppy gets away from the rim-dune area of Erebus the path should be clearly one of using bedrock stepping stones and avoiding sandpiles.
I am in favor of taking a few more Sols to look at the slope/bluff at point B to see how it compares with the previously studied exposures.
I'll think about it and work up an annotated MOC map soon, but you're on the right track.
--Bill
Posted by: Shaka Mar 10 2006, 02:07 AM
Mogollon station! Next stop Mogollon station, Track B! Transfer here for Victoria Express.
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/navcam/2006-03-09/1N195212141EFF6500P0696R0M1.JPG
Edit: Wow! Now that's what I call a thumbnail and-a-half!
1024 x 1024 'thumbnail' removed - Doug
Posted by: jvandriel Mar 10 2006, 09:35 AM
A complete 360 degree panoramic view on Sol 751.
Taken with the L0 navcam.
Look at the wheeltracks.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: jvandriel Mar 10 2006, 10:11 AM
And the 360 degree panoramic view on Sol 753 and Sol 754.
Taken with the L0 navcam.
Again look at the wheeltracks. It seems that there is a bump during driving.
Maybe the arm causes the unbalance.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: Cugel Mar 10 2006, 10:32 AM
Taken with the L0 navcam.
Again look at the wheeltracks. It seems that there is a bump during driving.
Maybe the arm causes the unbalance.
jvandriel
Jan,
I don't think it's the arm.
It looks like the familiar and regular hazard detection stops.
The rovers never drive continuously, they stop every 20 seconds or so to check if an elephant has jumped in its way.
Groeten uit Bilthoven!
Posted by: jvandriel Mar 10 2006, 10:54 AM
A mosaic of the bedrock on Sol 753.
Taken with the L7 pancam.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 10 2006, 11:06 AM
There is an easy ramp IF they want to go down and inspect this outcrop and then go further SE.
Let's what happens and if we actually take the "Victoria Express" at this station (it may be on the next one).
|
(Navcam L0, Sol 755)
Posted by: jvandriel Mar 10 2006, 11:08 AM
A look into the drive direction.
Taken with the L2 pancam on Sol 753.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 10 2006, 01:41 PM
I think that Oppy will take the easy off ramp down to the outcrop. This exposure is more of a jumble of rocks than a neatly layered one and also, from jvandriel's Sol 753 Pancam mosaic, the blueberries seem to be back in the bedrock. This is a have-to-peek spot.
I think that Oppy will head due West after this site to that field of smaller ripples and then head southward to Victoria hopscotching bedrock windows. Hopefully, the going will be as good as it was during the North Erebus Detour.
--Bill
Posted by: Tman Mar 10 2006, 03:00 PM
|
|
(navcam pano taken on sol 753)
(*) I mean the shot taken by the rover, not my panorama!
Yeah, even the first mosaic where you can see a round crater-like structure. Definitely Erebus must be a crater or so
Posted by: Ant103 Mar 10 2006, 04:22 PM
In looking those panorama, we see clearly the old of Erebus, formed before Endurance. The ellipse of the crater is under some sand and ripples dunes, contrary to Endurance who is perfectly clean. So, it's the first time we see so better the crater form (but, many sol ago, dunes hide many parts and elements of the crater, this could be the reason why we cannot see it, personnaly).
Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 10 2006, 05:37 PM
Imo, this is the best shot (*) taken at/around Erebus.
(navcam pano taken on sol 753)
(*) I mean the shot taken by the rover, not my panorama!
Here is a 3x vertical exaggeration showing the bowl of Erebus, adapted from this pano.
Just to the left of center is the series of bedrock exposures on the north Erebus rim with the "North Erebus Dune Field" left of that. The left background rim is bordered by the Olympia locale. The Payson outcrop is on the left side of the crater and the "Payson Promontory" is in the foreground. On the right side is the Mogollon Rim outcrop and to the right of center in the background is the Vermillion Cliffs exposure.
And that is Ebebus in a nutshell. I'm looking forward to seeing a lookback/lookahead panorama of Erebus and Victoria from the highpoint of the topo rise that Oppy is headed toward.
--Bill
Posted by: Shaka Mar 10 2006, 07:50 PM
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/navcam/2006-03-09/1N195212141EFF6500P0696R0M1.JPG
Edit: Wow! Now that's what I call a thumbnail and-a-half!
1024 x 1024 'thumbnail' removed - Doug
I expect to get the hang of these format buttons any year now, Doug.
Actually, I was about to paste the URL like you did, when I thought, "Lets see if this Insert Image button works."
So is there a technique for just inserting a thumbnail like the other guys do? (One that even a child can do?) P.S. Like that red type - very spiffy and attention grabbing!
Posted by: mhoward Mar 11 2006, 05:12 AM
New clouds at Meridian:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=110730238&context=photostream&size=l
Posted by: dilo Mar 11 2006, 07:50 AM
Very impressive mosaic, Michael.
I was already working on these pictures, here below is a gallery of selected images from Sol756, processed in order to see low contrast/high frequence details:
|
This is a fantasy color elaboration, where channels correspond to different sharpening levels:
|
If I correctly recall, appearance of clouds is a seasonal effect that should affect also MER solar panels cleaning...
Posted by: jvandriel Mar 12 2006, 11:35 AM
A 360 degree panoramic view of Erebus crater.
Taken witth the L0 navcam on Sol 755.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 12 2006, 11:48 AM
Oppy seems to have driven down the ramp on sol 757.
See here: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/rear_hazcam/2006-03-11/1R195388349EFF65C3P1312L0M1.JPG
BTW, the planned seqs. indicate no post-drive nav/pancams for sol 757 but movement again and panoramas on sol 758.
Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 12 2006, 01:16 PM
Opportunity is healthy and making its way south along the "Payson" outcrop of "Erebus Crater." The traverse paths are known within the team as "half-pipes," after the popular Olympic event. Last week Opportunity drove along one half-pipe, collecting high-resolution panoramic camera images of the outcrop. (The team calls this "scoot and shoot"). The rover has now left this path, and the team has planned a drive to the next half-pipe. Depending on traversability, Opportunity will either continue its scoot-and-shoot outcrop imaging campaign over the weekend, or start down the road to "Victoria Crater."
That seems to be the current driving plan. These two Mogollon Rim outcrops are just too valuable to pass by.
http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status.html#opportunity
--Bill
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 12 2006, 01:17 PM
... and this is the approx. new position as seen from sol 755 pancam.
|
Posted by: Oersted Mar 12 2006, 06:06 PM
--Bill
Of course we'll need to check them out, but I bet they'll turn out to not be "too valuable to check out". We really need to get out of this less than impressive place...
Funny how blasé one gets, if we think back to the reaction everybody had at the Eagle crater outcrop!
Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 12 2006, 08:50 PM
A "roadcut" exposure like this, on the Plain of the Flat, is valuable because it is a window to subsurface conditions. At a minimum Oppy will do Pancam imaging, but maybe not bring out the handlens and scratchplate.
--Bill
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 13 2006, 09:03 AM
Now that was an interesting move!
On sol 757, driving down to the outcrop indicated on my quoted post, ending the day with a pancam mosaic (pancam_hokan_pm_L7R1).
On the morning of sol 758, repeat the same pancam mosaic (pancam_hokan_am_L257R1) and about noon drive back up the slope to about the same place as of sol 756.
|
(Sol 758 post-drive navcam pano)
Edited: This is a crop of sol 757 evening pancam mosaic. Have we seen that kind of layering before?
|
Some original images: http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/pancam/2006-03-12/1P195389233EFF65C3P2364R1M1.JPG and http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/pancam/2006-03-12/1P195389296EFF65C3P2364R1M1.JPG
Posted by: Ant103 Mar 13 2006, 09:17 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=110730238&context=photostream&size=l
Wow, it's very impressive! The sky rendering is very good, that's a good work. Congratulation
Posted by: Astro0 Mar 13 2006, 11:12 AM
A little item to entertain...
On a thread somewhere we were talking about music for Oppy's travels and the sounds the MERs make.
There was also a suggestion of a panorama-movie too.
Never one to pass up a challenge, there's a rough first go at a little movie of Opportunity at Payson Passage (the half-pipe) on my webpage. File: 1.4mb WMV http://www.zip.com.au/~gjn/MERSFX/indexSFX.html
Enjoy
Astro0
PS: There's also two new views of Opportunity visiting its heatshield.
Posted by: Ames Mar 13 2006, 01:48 PM
It was here:
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=2300&st=210&p=44637&#entry44637
Utterly overwhelming, spine tingling vision.
I am close to tears!
Thankyou Astro0
Nick
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 13 2006, 02:52 PM
The last drive-direction pancam images (from sol 758) are basically looking South to the dunes sea.
|
(The rightmost frame is still missing)
I have the good feeling that the journey to Victoria crater will start on sol 760!
PS: Once they start driving by the dunes, polar and/or vertical projections will be a *must* in order to have a reliable route map.
Dilo, what about your POV-Ray issues?
Posted by: mhoward Mar 13 2006, 03:18 PM
Thanks. Let me just add, since I didn't comment on it at the time, that it's not meant to be a great work of art or anything; the main point for me was that it shows the images in their correct position. When I saw those cloud images, I really wanted to know if they were a mosaic and, if so, where they were relative to the local scenery. Turns out the answers are "yes" and "south" respectively.
I'm sure somebody else could do a much better job stitching the images together.
Posted by: Toma B Mar 13 2006, 03:38 PM
Why sol760? What's wrong with sol759? Today would be good day to start driving...
P.S.
Thanks for the regularly posted maps Tesheiner!!!
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 13 2006, 03:47 PM
B)-->
Why sol760? What's wrong with sol759?
[/quote]
Nothing wrong, except that the "post-drive" images from sol 758 -- required to plan the next movement -- were not available in time to prepare and uplink the next set of driving commands on sol 759. They must wait for the following sol; it's known as "restricted sols".
PS: I'm assuming sol 760 will be a driving sol; according to the tracking web it's not yet planned.
Posted by: Toma B Mar 13 2006, 03:58 PM
When will "restricted sols" end?
It's been a week or two of "restricted sols" already?
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 13 2006, 04:05 PM
Wait a minute!
Sol 759 has barely started (it is only 04:30 am at Meridiani), so let's wait and see what happens tosol. At the end you may be right.
Posted by: djellison Mar 13 2006, 04:07 PM
If you have two days of consecutive driving, you know you're not in restricted sols. The definition of a restricted sol is one where by Sol n data arrives at a time too late to be involved in the planning of Sol n+1, so mobility planning can only occur for Sol n+2.
Typically, a period of restricted sols lasts about 10 days to 2 weeks.
Sometimes, however, due to bad downlink, missed DSN pass, an error on the rover etc - you can miss a sol or 3 just thru bad luck ( one sol was lost thru because a cable at a DSN dish had been eaten by rodents )
It's 5am 759 for Oppy now - and I'm seing 758 images that show a drive occured.
Doug
Posted by: Shaka Mar 13 2006, 07:25 PM
!!!
Enjoy
Astro0
PS: There's also two new views of Opportunity visiting its heatshield.
Heehee! Luvitluvitluvit!
You liddle bewdy! O.K. now we want the humming to increase in volume as Oppy comes into the frame, then a new buzz as the Pancam rotates to look at the viewer, finally a click and lurch and Oppy heads off and out of frame. We should run up a storyboard.Hollywood here we come!
Dahlings!
Posted by: Astro0 Mar 13 2006, 10:38 PM
OK Shaka, don't get too excited. I'm no Speilberg and my special effects budget extends to whatever freeware I can find and my newly acquired Adobe Premier and After Effects (which I'm still learning as you can tell). I've certainly got plans for more movies, but don't go putting me up for Oscar nominations.
Glad you liked it though
Astro0
Posted by: mars loon Mar 14 2006, 03:42 AM
I've certainly got plans for more movies, but don't go putting me up for Oscar nominations.
Astro0
Nice work Astro0
Well if you show our baby actually moving realistically thru Payson, we may all nominate you for an Oscar
ken
Posted by: Astro0 Mar 14 2006, 04:23 AM
I don't know about "realistically" but how about 'South Park-style'.
"Oh My God...They Killed (insert name of your favourite failed Mars mission here)!"
Astro0
Posted by: Shaka Mar 14 2006, 05:39 AM
"Oh My God...They Killed (insert name of your favourite failed Mars mission here)!"
Astro0
Whoa, People! SOUTH PARKAnd I'm thinking:Guest Spot!
Here it is: Oppy runs over ...wait for it...KENNY!
Quick, who owes us in Lalaland? I say we do lunch! Who lives around L.A.?
Emily?
Posted by: dilo Mar 14 2006, 07:30 AM
On a thread somewhere we were talking about music for Oppy's travels and the sounds the MERs make.
There was also a suggestion of a panorama-movie too.
Glad to see my false-color pano in your animation, beautiful music!
...and great picture of Opportunity visiting its heatshield!
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 14 2006, 09:41 AM
...
I have the good feeling that the journey to Victoria crater will start on sol 760!
PS: Once they start driving by the dunes, polar and/or vertical projections will be a *must* in order to have a reliable route map.
Dilo, what about your POV-Ray issues?
This is the 360º navcam pano taken on sol 758.
Who wants to make a polar projection of it?
|
Posted by: djellison Mar 14 2006, 10:27 AM
Voila.
|
|
Posted by: Astro0 Mar 14 2006, 11:25 AM
We're all probably getting a little anxious about our two intrepid explorers right about now.
Spirit seems to be having some troubles over at Gusev and now that Oppy is back on the road to Victoria we all want her to get there safely.
Chat about animations reminded me of a JPL film on the MERs autonomous navigation.
I thought I'd post a link to an edited version that I think will bring a smile to all at this time
For those of you who have seen it before, enjoy it once more.
For those of who haven't, I recommend seeing this excerpt and then checking out the MER website and seeing the whole thing.
The excerpt is http://www.zip.com.au/~gjn/MERSFX/UMSF/MER_Spinout.wmv File; 466kb WMV
The full version is http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/video/movies/mer_rovernav_240.mov File: 18.6mb MOV
All credit to the work on this film by Jack Morrison for JPL/Caltech
Enjoy
Astro0
Posted by: paxdan Mar 14 2006, 12:06 PM
moi aussi, Just need Phil for the trifecta of Polar Pans. Though an original without the missaligned stich over the aft solar panel would be nice.
Doug try using the Filter>Distort>Pinch or Filter>Distort>Spherize effect after Polar Coordinates. The below Polar was modified with 2X 100% Pinch Filter.
|
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 14 2006, 01:34 PM
Thanks Doug and Paxdan for the help.
I was aware of the misalignment but sometimes autostitch is not so smart as I would like, specially on these Arrakis (sorry, Meridiani) panoramas.
Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 14 2006, 01:57 PM
Ok, here's mine.
Phil
|
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 14 2006, 02:35 PM
Aligned with MOC imagery, as usual!
Thanks Phil.
Posted by: djellison Mar 14 2006, 02:36 PM
Phil wins
Doug
Posted by: paxdan Mar 14 2006, 02:51 PM
Doug
agreed
Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 14 2006, 03:08 PM
Now people, it's not a competition (he smirked).
Phil
Posted by: Ant103 Mar 14 2006, 04:06 PM
Hey! There is new cloud who flying over Meridiani!
See the downsampled images ==> http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_n758.html
Impressive, isn't it?
Posted by: djellison Mar 14 2006, 04:22 PM
They're lovely
|
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 14 2006, 05:01 PM
Tosol (760) is planned as driving day at Meridiani.
Yesterday I made a http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=2076&view=findpost&p=45353 and finally succeeded (thanks all) plotting it on the route map. If that's the chosen path or not, we will know soon.
|
Posted by: Steve Mar 14 2006, 05:08 PM
Yesterday I made a route proposal and finally succeeded (thanks all) plotting it on the route map. If that's the path or not, we will know soon.
|
|
The reference to halfpipes may suggest the planners have something other than a straight run southwards in mind. I don't read the sports pages and my skiing is all flat crosscountry, but here's http://www.abc-of-snowboarding.com/halfpipetricks.asp
.
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 14 2006, 05:23 PM
When they got the rover into the crater on sol 757 I thought the same. But then they drove back to the top and current position on sol 758 AND the post-drive images (i.e. plan for next move) are looking almost due south.
Posted by: mhoward Mar 14 2006, 05:34 PM
Perspective views again:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=112494508&size=l http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=112494503&size=l
Posted by: helvick Mar 14 2006, 05:48 PM
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=112494508&size=l http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=112494503&size=l
Awesome.
Posted by: Shaka Mar 14 2006, 06:29 PM
So what's the circle near the middle of the right frame? Somebody blowing smoke rings?
Posted by: djellison Mar 14 2006, 06:31 PM
That's an internal refraction - the optics bouncing a little bit of the sun around. A lot of the solar images show it as well.
Doug
Posted by: helvick Mar 14 2006, 06:46 PM
The is a refraction artifact but there is a lovely ring of clouds just above it that I don't think is an artifact. Very smoke ring like
Posted by: jvandriel Mar 14 2006, 07:44 PM
Layers.
A mosaic of layers taken with the R1 pancam on Sol 757 and Sol 758.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: Toma B Mar 14 2006, 08:09 PM
|
|
WOW !!!!
Is that a driving plan for next 2 weeks?
Just kidding!!!
It's been so long time since Opportunity drove that kind of distance...
Posted by: Shaka Mar 14 2006, 08:43 PM
What do I get for spotting the first flying saucer on Mars?
Who said "certified"?
Posted by: Tesheiner Mar 14 2006, 08:51 PM
B)-->
WOW !!!!
Is that a driving plan for next 2 weeks?
Just kidding!!!
It's been so long time since Opportunity drove that kind of distance...
[/quote]
That's just a "proposal" for the time being. If the terrain is similar to the "detour" before approaching Olympia, I would guess it's a three days move.
I (and many others here) am eager to see looooooong (> 40m) drives again.
Posted by: JRehling Mar 14 2006, 08:55 PM
I'm just glad it's not MRO.
Posted by: Shaka Mar 14 2006, 09:26 PM
Ohmigod! There's an identical flying saucer hovering directly over Spirit!! http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2006-03-14/2N195516212EDNAPGBP1585L0M1.JPG
And she just lost a wheel! We're under attack!! Take cover!
Aw Doug is always right. It's not fair!
Posted by: Pertinax Mar 14 2006, 09:28 PM
I'm having to post and leave pronto, so I appologize for a brief post...
I've been facinated by the chance of spotting CO2 or water ice halo's in MER imagery. None have been spotted yet to my knowlege, and while hopefull I am doubtfull that Oppy's sol758's cloud imagery contains any either.
None the less, I thought a pair of 'brightenings' in Oppy's clouds were interesing enough to post in order to get some feedback (I hope).
Any thoughts?
(Thank you mhoward!)
-- Pertinax
|
Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 14 2006, 09:50 PM
I was thinking along the same lines, but wanted to update my route base-map first. Current Navcam imagery does show that southward path, and hopefully the driving will be as good as Oppy had during the North Erebus Dunefield detour. I think that the path will get better and Oppy can hop-scotch along the bedrock windows.
--Bill
Posted by: atomoid Mar 14 2006, 10:11 PM
http://mars.lyle.org/bysol/1-758.html aside from the beautiful clouds and smoke rings, shows this:
...undoubtedly a sarcophagus with its lid partially exhumed. ...how else could the dirt get piled up in a neat line at the edges if it weren't for one of those lost Mars Mummies banging on the lid, vibrating the dirt to the edges while deperately trying to escape?
Posted by: avkillick Mar 14 2006, 10:15 PM
The true home plate.
...undoubtedly a sarcophagus with its lid partially exhumed...
...how else could the dirt get piled up in a neat line at the edges if it weren't for one of those lost Mars Mummies deperately trying to escape?
Posted by: dilo Mar 14 2006, 10:51 PM
None the less, I thought a pair of 'brightenings' in Oppy's clouds were interesing enough to post in order to get some feedback (I hope).
Any thoughts?
Pertinax, these clouds are really amazing... I made a couple of elaborations to highlight through colors regions with different luminosity and variation frequency (original 1n195482393edn65eyp1585l0m1).
|
|
However, I do not see the feature you highlighted and I wonder about Crystal selection window... are colors associated to some kind of simulation you ran?
Thanks
Posted by: Shaka Mar 14 2006, 10:53 PM
shuddderrr.... You're just trying to give me nightmares, Atom! But I'm not afraid! I know when we brush aside the regolith it will say "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"!
Posted by: DFinfrock Mar 15 2006, 01:52 AM
None the less, I thought a pair of 'brightenings' in Oppy's clouds were interesing enough to post in order to get some feedback (I hope).
-- Pertinax
I'm a meteorologist, but certainly no expert in atmospheric optics. But here's a great link to the best explanation of the subject that I know of on the web. Perhaps a detailed analysis of the photos would reveal whether the "brightening" you see corresponds with any of the parhelia features discussed in the link.
http://www.atoptics.co.uk/
David
Posted by: RNeuhaus Mar 15 2006, 02:17 AM
Doug
I think so as an overall. It has easier view of Mars and the Oppy's tracks. Anyway, I enjoy viewing all of them.
Rodolfo
Posted by: RNeuhaus Mar 15 2006, 02:27 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=112494508&size=l http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=112494503&size=l
The Mars's clouds are very fine, like to cirrus. The leftmost picture, inside of that on right side has catched me an attention: there is an about circle formation of cirrus cloud. That is not usuall. The cirrus clouds have the enlogated formation but not in an around circle... around that there is some convenction of hot thermal air.
Rodolfo
Posted by: Shaka Mar 15 2006, 02:47 AM
Rodolfo
Thanx for the explanation, Rod, but check out posts #220, 221, 222, 225, 228.
Posted by: RNeuhaus Mar 15 2006, 03:03 AM
Sip, your pointing is correct. I have skimed many posts. I am not only one. Many of us too.
Rodolfo
Posted by: hugh Mar 15 2006, 07:50 AM
Looks like we could be leaving the Erebus rim and heading south for good this time.
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/navcam/2006-03-14/1N195655099EFF65KEP0695L0M1.JPG
Posted by: Ant103 Mar 15 2006, 08:27 AM
Bye bye Erebus
...
and, Victoria, Oppy arrives!
Posted by: Pertinax Mar 15 2006, 06:16 PM
The brighening is somewhat subtle, and easier to see if the unannotated and annotated images are compared side by side.
The colors are from a simulation for some potential martian ice halo's (CO2 and H2O). (See: http://www.sundog.clara.co.uk/halo/halfeat.htm). Les and Michael were kind enough several years back to share their CO2 crystal files with me for a few projects I was working on at the time. As I was hurrying yesterday, the crystal settings are actually the same as used for Les' image posted here: http://www.sundog.clara.co.uk/halo/owmars.htm.
With respect the the brightening, I don't think a diffinitive answer can be made, as the brightening I noted could also be an optically denser patch of cirrus. More cirrostratus-like clouds would be better at presenting halos in nonmultispectral imagery (see: http://wufs.wustl.edu/fido/tests/aug02/an/events/ev210.htm for example).
Lastly, and again aganst these brightening being caused by any refractive phenomena, the brightenings that corresponded with the halo simulation were associated with CO2 cuboctahedron ice crystals, not haxagonal water ice cyrstals. My understanding is that these are water ice clouds. Any MiniTes measurements to the contrary?
Longwinded (making up for yesterday
), but I hope that helps.-- Pertinax
Posted by: dilo Mar 15 2006, 09:27 PM
Thank you very much, Pertinax... I completely missed the Mars halos item, now I'm delighted and amazed by this argument!
I like very much also the site you linked (my preferred pages are http://www.sundog.clara.co.uk/halo/spsun.htm# and http://www.sundog.clara.co.uk/halo/owsat.htm one).
About your possible identification of "CO2 cuboctahedron ice crystals" halo, however, I hardly see it... from a strongly processed version of this image (where I removed very low frequency components) my impression is that you catched a cirrus, at least in the right portion...
|
PS: based on http://www.sundog.clara.co.uk/halo/owmars.htm simulations, in the top-left image portion, shouldn't we see also some CO2 parhelia?
Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 15 2006, 09:39 PM
You meant to say "Good riddance Erebus!"
Posted by: jvandriel Mar 21 2006, 09:19 AM
A last look at layers of Erebus.
Mosaic made on Sol 758 with the R1 pancam.
jvandriel
|
Posted by: Pertinax Mar 21 2006, 02:46 PM
<snip>
About your possible identification of "CO2 cuboctahedron ice crystals" halo, however, I hardly see it... from a strongly processed version of this image (where I removed very low frequency components) my impression is that you catched a cirrus[.]
PS: based on http://www.sundog.clara.co.uk/halo/owmars.htm simulations, in the top-left image portion, shouldn't we see also some CO2 parhelia?
Sorry for the much delayed reply -- much of the family including myself were home sick last the second half of last week, and yesterday I was catching up at work.
Concerning the image in question, I agree. The more and more I look at the cirrus, the less and less I think that there are any discernable halos. I'll be keeing my eyes particularly open when Oppy has her eyes up.
For fun, I'll include another version of the image I poseted earlier. This 1) accepts the horizon as essentially correct (the simulation's horizon assumes an infinate, flat plane), 2) shows a bit more boldly the full possibility of potential halos for this view, and 3) shows the simulation's settings.
|
Enjoy for what it's worth.
Les' site on Atmospheric Optics is second to none.
The 11Jan99 South Pole halo display is one of the greatest and best documented displays recorded. For better or worse, I had just missed (was first alternate) being at the pole as Meteorologist for the '98/'99 Austral Summer.
The Saturn image was one of the projects that Les assisted me with. I have larger copies if you are interested.
Cheers,
-- Pertinax
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)