Night driving for MSL? |
Night driving for MSL? |
Aug 29 2014, 07:24 PM
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 19-August 07 Member No.: 3299 |
Finally, there is no hurry so it is not necessary to risk if the time is plentiful. Besides, as there is no hurry, take the easiest and safest way is the most wise mission plan. According my Earth experience is that the night driving on sand has a little better traction since the sand is little more cemented due to the humidity but in Mars, the humidity is almost inexistent.
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Aug 29 2014, 08:13 PM
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#17
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Merciless Robot Group: Admin Posts: 8783 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
The bottom line based on MSL's capabilities and this discussion seems to be that any benefits (scientific or otherwise) that might be derived from a night drive would be minuscule compared to the level of risk that would be assumed by doing so.
Given that the two words that best describe spacecraft mission managers--esp. those responsible for a Flagship-class US planetary mission--are "risk averse", this just ain't gonna happen. -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Aug 30 2014, 04:00 AM
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#18
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Member Group: Admin Posts: 976 Joined: 29-September 06 From: Pasadena, CA - USA Member No.: 1200 |
A night test is not so far fetched. The electrostatic continuity of the subsoil will be enhanced in a sub -40 degree night environment, compared to the heat of the day... implying the possibility of a increase of cohesiveness in the soil. It is *very* easy to make suggestions of this level from the comfort of your home, but it is quite different when you are in the hot seat and need to ensure that a $2.5B national asset in a very visible space mission is not damaged, or its mission jeopardized. We have indeed entertained the idea of driving in the dark but mostly to increase the amount of driving we can do in a Sol and the added risk and effectiveness has been determined not worth the trouble. Paolo -------------------- Disclaimer: all opinions, ideas and information included here are my own,and should not be intended to represent opinion or policy of my employer.
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Aug 30 2014, 05:41 AM
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#19
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1043 Joined: 17-February 09 Member No.: 4605 |
The electrostatic continuity of the subsoil will be enhanced in a sub -40 degree night environment, compared to the heat of the day... implying the possibility of a increase of cohesiveness in the soil. Would you mind explaining your rationale for enhanced electrostatic continuity with this degree of temperature drop in a desiccated, particulate environment? I regret that my education is sadly lacking in this respect. |
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Guest_Actionman_* |
Aug 30 2014, 11:43 AM
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#20
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Guests |
It is *very* easy to make suggestions of this level from the comfort of your home, but it is quite different when you are in the hot seat and need to ensure that a $2.5B national asset in a very visible space mission is not damaged, or its mission jeopardized. We have indeed entertained the idea of driving in the dark but mostly to increase the amount of driving we can do in a Sol and the added risk and effectiveness has been determined not worth the trouble. Paolo It wasn't very easy making this suggestion not at all, there seems to be a necessity in the making. You just did a test run in a small dune area (which looked fine to me). So there may not be a scenario where the mission fails or is deemed unassailable. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't avoiding dune wasting precious time. |
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Aug 30 2014, 01:04 PM
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#21
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Member Group: Admin Posts: 976 Joined: 29-September 06 From: Pasadena, CA - USA Member No.: 1200 |
From the outside some of the mission decisions seem puzzling, some even bizarre but there are many constraints we have to deal with. Power, science observations, communication windows (which are set weeks, if not months in advance) which sometimes force us in doing what we are doing. If you are ever in the LA area on Mondays or Fridays and give me some advance notice, I can arrange to attend a SOWG meeting on MER (MSL's are not open to visitors). While some issues are pretty cryptic, some of the decision process will stand out. I think a handful of the SOWG meetings for MER have been recorded and should be available to the public (+). The most difficult part of train new RPs is making them understand the decision process we follow, how to balance risk and benefits. It is a quite involved, often frustrating process.
Regarding driving at night, I have already said that it would be very expensive in terms of power but most importantly in terms of risk. Risk needs to be balanced by a benefit and of all the planetary geologists, including the best experts in this type of terrain none of them have said there's any correlation between temperature and cohesion. None. I have no idea what your background is, but if you feel strongly about this send an email to JPL. Avoiding sand dunes is not wasting precious time. If I can only drive 20m each night to traverse on sand dunes, while I can traverse 40-60m during the day, I can cover a route that is three times longer and with a much lower risk to the mission. You might add more wear and tear on the wheels but if the rover traverses into sandy terrain that prevents any motion at all (I hate to say "gets stuck") then it would be very hard to do much science (and it would not look good on my resume). I apologize to the Admins for the lenghty post. Paolo (+) a quick google search pointed me to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgyvdf7WJ-I -------------------- Disclaimer: all opinions, ideas and information included here are my own,and should not be intended to represent opinion or policy of my employer.
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Aug 30 2014, 01:11 PM
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#22
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2346 Joined: 7-December 12 Member No.: 6780 |
A night test is not so far fetched. The electrostatic continuity of the subsoil will be enhanced in a sub -40 degree night environment, compared to the heat of the day... implying the possibility of a increase of cohesiveness in the soil. Instead of driving at night one could consider a driving test in the early morning to avoid the VO and AutoNav issues, but the heating issue remains. Respecting the "electrostatic continuity" I'm with Serpens. The gaps in this idea make it difficult to duplicate the reasoning. There are lots of possible electrostatic effects which may be considered: - Currents in conductors and semiconductors are dependent of the electric resistance, which is dependent of the temperature. But most of the sand is insulating. Hence the degree of electrostatic continuity in those settings aren't relevant for the driving. - Surface charging by ultraviolet due to the photoelectric effect. This may be expected to charge the sun-exposed locations positively and the shadows negatively. There is a difference between day and night. This charging may affect aeolian dust, and the top few micrometers of the surface. Negligible for subsurface and driving mechanics. - Solar energetic particles may charge the surface positively, leading to a repulsion within the surface layer. There might be some day/night difference. The effect is tiny in comparison to gravity for the subsurface. - Piezoelectricity has been shown to be dependent of temperature. But it should occur in measurable quantity for a tiny fraction of the sand, at most. Induced electrostatic forces negligible for driving. - Van-der-Waals forces have been shown to be temperature dependent. These are of electrostatic nature in some respect, and may affect the cohesion of particles. The only relevant chain of evidence between temperature and driving progress I could imagine is temperature-dependent friction. Friction is an easy topic, if one doesn't look closer. But it's exceedingly complicated in detail. And it's mostly of electromagnetic nature on the atomic scale. But there is lot of theoretical and experimental evidence, that among several other factors friction can be temperature-dependent, e.g. for silicon. Hence your suggestion might be adjustable by replacing "night" by "early morning", and "electrostatic continuity" as the underlying physical principle by "possible temperature-dependent friction". But I'd suggest this only in the emergency case of stuck wheels, not in normal mode. The effect may well be contrary to what you expected. |
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Guest_Actionman_* |
Aug 30 2014, 03:13 PM
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#23
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Guests |
The dunes are dust rather then sand, the dust forms bonds the can look like sand some of these form linearly.
What about the rovers boom-arm will that be any help ? pushing off in the dune dust? |
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Aug 30 2014, 03:21 PM
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#24
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2346 Joined: 7-December 12 Member No.: 6780 |
The arm is too precious to risk damage using it that way.
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Aug 30 2014, 03:58 PM
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 19-August 07 Member No.: 3299 |
Curiosity's arm is not designed for land pushing purposes. There are more easy and better solutions than just pushing which is to trace the best route that is always possible.
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Aug 30 2014, 04:59 PM
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#26
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Member Group: Admin Posts: 976 Joined: 29-September 06 From: Pasadena, CA - USA Member No.: 1200 |
The dunes are dust rather then sand, the dust forms bonds the can look like sand some of these form linearly. What about the rovers boom-arm will that be any help ? pushing off in the dune dust? No, the dunes and ripples are *covered* by fine particles for only a few mm but the supporting structure is sand. And here we go again, just like Spirit at Troy EVERYONE was suggesting using the arm to push the rover. Even if we were so foolish to try this: 1) the motor controllers are shared between arm and mobility so you cannot drive AND use the arm 2) the gears in the actuators of the arm cannot withstand the load. Think of it like you in your car stuck in mud trying to push the car with a broom. Paolo -------------------- Disclaimer: all opinions, ideas and information included here are my own,and should not be intended to represent opinion or policy of my employer.
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Aug 30 2014, 06:21 PM
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#27
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Merciless Robot Group: Admin Posts: 8783 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
Paolo, I'd also add a number 3 (and amplify Gerald's comment thereby): Some of MSL's most critical equipment is contained in the arm, so even if using it as a lever were feasible doing so might well cripple the rover's ability to execute prime mission functions (SAAM).
MOD MODE: I strongly urge all members who are not professional participants in the MSL mission to carefully review Forum rule 2.6. The admin/mod team is closely monitoring the tone of this discussion. -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Aug 30 2014, 08:30 PM
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#28
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Administrator Group: Admin Posts: 5172 Joined: 4-August 05 From: Pasadena, CA, USA, Earth Member No.: 454 |
I apologize to the Admins for the lengthy post. Paolo Paolo, let me speak for all the Admins -- in fact, I think for the whole forum -- that we would never think one of your posts is too 'lengthy'. Thanks very much for your patient and clear explanations; I'm learning from them. It's news to me that you even considered driving in the dark at one time! I thought your drive lengths were most limited by when the communications passes happened. If you did drive in the dark, you wouldn't be able to get post-drive imaging in time to plan movement the next day, would you? -------------------- My website - My Patreon - @elakdawalla on Twitter - Please support unmannedspaceflight.com by donating here.
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Aug 30 2014, 09:15 PM
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#29
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Member Group: Admin Posts: 976 Joined: 29-September 06 From: Pasadena, CA - USA Member No.: 1200 |
Emily, it did not go much past the idea of driving after the afternoon comm pass. You are right that the post-drive imaging would need to wait for sunrise, possibly after the morning comm pass which would require more heating for the mast actuators and camera electronics. Really driving at the time we are driving (typically noon-ish to early afternoon) is the most efficient usage of the available resources.
I welcome suggestions and don't want to stifle creativity. I really like interacting with people who might have ideas. Unfortunately one of teh few things we are not at liberty to publicly talk about is anomaly resolution. This is unfortunate because it would really show what issues we are really facing and how my extremely clever colleagues figure out how to solve them. It is quite amazing. There are a few published articles such as the Spirit Sol 18 Anomaly that give a glimpse into this. Paolo -------------------- Disclaimer: all opinions, ideas and information included here are my own,and should not be intended to represent opinion or policy of my employer.
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Aug 30 2014, 09:32 PM
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#30
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14431 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
There are some great articles on that at the JPL Tech Report Server...
The Spirit anomaly story : http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/handle/2014/38849 The Mars Rover Spirit FLASH anomaly : http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/handle/2014/39361 Mars Exploration Rover Spirit Sol 18 anomaly : http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/handle/2014/40546 |
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