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Update on Mars' atmosphere, Media briefing on NASA Jan 15th
Stu
post Jan 12 2009, 06:01 PM
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Interesting...

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=27336



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silylene
post Jan 15 2009, 09:06 PM
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i do wish that the researchers did not seriously consider photochemical generation of methane as a significant source of abiogenic methane.

Please refer to this thread, or even older threads in SDC (with many references) : http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...&hl=methane

From the synopsis of the press conference I read on SDC by MW (sorry, I missed the press conference): I would like to see chemcial kinetic rate data that photolysis takes 'centuries', or was this a conjecture? It would need to be a steady state effect: methane is both being produced and being lost. The concentration observed reflects the chemical kinetics of these two processes.

The map of methane production shown (I recall we went over this before, in the pre-Pluck and also pre-crash SDC forums), and indeed in the pre-crash SDC also!) gives the highest methane production in the Martian equitorial band. This is exactly what would be expected if it were a photochemical process, since this would occure in the areas of highest irradiance.

The photochemical process I proposed (see the link above, or for more information, the older links in SDC) was a photoreduction of CO2 catalyzed on metal oxide dust surfaces with hydrogen (which comes from water). The dusts (TiO2, for example, this works with several types of oxides) serve as catalysts for this effect. in fact, I would expect areas in which the dust is uplifted due to winds or dust devils to expose more dust catalyst for methane photoproduction. So you may see the highest rates where there is both high irradiance, and higher concentrations of exposed metal oxide dusts. I also recall about 2 yrs ago that, I came across a paper which found some atmospheric photoreduction chemistry occuring on the dusts from the soil surfaces in Chile'se Atacambra desert, which is a rather good stand-in for the Martian conditions.

Also, one would need to correlate the seasonal variation lifting or exposure of exposure of dusts which may serve as catalysts. And/or correlate the seasonal variation in the concentration of H2O in the atmosphere may be inportant too, as this is the source of H2 for the photreduction of CO2 to methane.

Until I see more, I am very unconvinced of the need for a biogenic methane source. I am looking forward to reading their journal paper to see how they treated the photochcemical generation.
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Posts in this topic
- Stu   Update on Mars' atmosphere   Jan 12 2009, 06:01 PM
- - djellison   Methane?   Jan 12 2009, 06:02 PM
|- - HughFromAlice   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 13 2009, 03:32 AM)...   Jan 14 2009, 10:07 AM
- - Stu   I reckon so... after all, all those plesiosaurs, s...   Jan 12 2009, 06:06 PM
- - elakdawalla   Mike Mumma's name is synonymous with methane. ...   Jan 12 2009, 06:16 PM
- - Tesheiner   I'm just trying to remember... wasn't some...   Jan 12 2009, 07:09 PM
- - remcook   For more detail you could probably look at Mumma...   Jan 12 2009, 07:09 PM
- - lyford   QUOTE Mike Mumma's name is synonymous with met...   Jan 12 2009, 07:16 PM
- - helvick   Yep Methane and with the others on this Press Conf...   Jan 12 2009, 09:03 PM
- - Juramike   Here's some handy numbers (source: http://en.w...   Jan 12 2009, 10:04 PM
- - stevesliva   Isn't the methane emitted from mud volcanoes o...   Jan 12 2009, 10:43 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (stevesliva @ Jan 12 2009, 05:43 PM...   Jan 12 2009, 11:45 PM
|- - Tom Tamlyn   There's some interesting background on Mars an...   Jan 13 2009, 12:52 AM
|- - marswalker   Well researched. A theory is that water, iron ox...   Jan 16 2009, 06:44 PM
- - tdemko   The methane from most large mud volcanoes (e.g. Ca...   Jan 13 2009, 02:43 AM
- - Enceladus75   I hope that it has to do with a detection of metha...   Jan 14 2009, 11:15 PM
- - ilbasso   The Sun is claiming that NASA will announce that t...   Jan 15 2009, 02:48 AM
|- - Stu   QUOTE (ilbasso @ Jan 15 2009, 02:48 AM) T...   Jan 15 2009, 06:19 AM
- - Sunspot   The story is starting to appear on quite a few new...   Jan 15 2009, 11:42 AM
- - djellison   Of course, until the news conference, there isn...   Jan 15 2009, 11:48 AM
|- - stevesliva   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 15 2009, 06:48 AM)...   Jan 15 2009, 08:17 PM
- - Pertinax   But, but... what about the story about the story t...   Jan 15 2009, 01:03 PM
- - Oersted   WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE, RUN, RUN!!!...   Jan 15 2009, 01:11 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Oersted @ Jan 15 2009, 01:11 PM) I...   Jan 15 2009, 02:25 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 15 2009, 09:25 AM)...   Jan 15 2009, 03:32 PM
- - OWW   Forgive me, but I don't understand why methane...   Jan 15 2009, 01:54 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (OWW @ Jan 15 2009, 02:54 PM) Forgi...   Jan 15 2009, 02:00 PM
- - SirBruce   According to news reports, the latest science have...   Jan 15 2009, 04:34 PM
|- - centsworth_II   I continue to be disappointed in the failure to in...   Jan 15 2009, 04:48 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (SirBruce @ Jan 15 2009, 11:34 AM) ...   Jan 15 2009, 05:05 PM
- - Juramike   As written on Fox News: "(American media out...   Jan 15 2009, 05:12 PM
- - djellison   The story here, is that Astrobiology is off topic ...   Jan 15 2009, 05:26 PM
|- - SirBruce   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 15 2009, 09:26 AM)...   Jan 15 2009, 06:05 PM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (SirBruce @ Jan 15 2009, 06:05 PM) ...   Jan 15 2009, 06:29 PM
||- - Sunspot   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 15 2009, 06:29 PM)...   Jan 15 2009, 06:35 PM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (Sunspot @ Jan 15 2009, 06:35 PM) T...   Jan 15 2009, 07:46 PM
||- - SirBruce   I wasn't going to post again -- I've found...   Jan 15 2009, 08:04 PM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (SirBruce @ Jan 15 2009, 08:04 PM) ...   Jan 15 2009, 08:20 PM
||- - ilbasso   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 15 2009, 03:20 PM)...   Jan 15 2009, 10:24 PM
|- - Sunspot   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 15 2009, 05:26 PM)...   Jan 15 2009, 06:24 PM
- - Hungry4info   If you want, you can discuss it on the Extrasolar ...   Jan 15 2009, 06:55 PM
- - imipak   Edit - remove silly question. Apologies for the no...   Jan 15 2009, 06:59 PM
- - Juramike   And the evidence is not clear either way....space....   Jan 15 2009, 07:17 PM
- - Stu   Anyone know of an "audio only" link for ...   Jan 15 2009, 07:21 PM
- - Paolo   On NASA's portal http://www.nasa.gov/mission_p...   Jan 15 2009, 07:32 PM
- - imipak   BBC piece.   Jan 15 2009, 07:37 PM
- - tty   The only way to pin the origin of the methane down...   Jan 15 2009, 07:41 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (tty @ Jan 15 2009, 02:41 PM) The o...   Jan 15 2009, 07:44 PM
- - PDP8E   mars atmosphere is active Methane plumes are seen ...   Jan 15 2009, 07:41 PM
- - Juramike   The source could be clathrated methane (see avatar...   Jan 15 2009, 07:52 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (Juramike @ Jan 15 2009, 07:52 PM) ...   Jan 15 2009, 08:03 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (ngunn @ Jan 15 2009, 03:03 PM) Exa...   Jan 15 2009, 08:10 PM
- - imipak   Active hotspots identified are Terra Sabae, Nili F...   Jan 15 2009, 07:52 PM
- - elakdawalla   Let me try to explain in a different way. This si...   Jan 15 2009, 08:10 PM
|- - Sunspot   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Jan 15 2009, 08:10 P...   Jan 15 2009, 10:34 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Sunspot @ Jan 15 2009, 10:34 PM) T...   Jan 16 2009, 12:32 AM
- - Julius   Any ideas as to whether current Mars orbiters with...   Jan 15 2009, 08:20 PM
- - ollopa   I couldn't help noticing that two of the panel...   Jan 15 2009, 08:22 PM
- - silylene   i do wish that the researchers did not seriously c...   Jan 15 2009, 09:06 PM
|- - marsbug   QUOTE (silylene @ Jan 15 2009, 09:06 PM) ...   Jan 15 2009, 10:03 PM
- - gpurcell   FWIW, looks like the observations were purely Eart...   Jan 15 2009, 09:19 PM
- - Fran Ontanaya   Oi, if there's snow, snow will be studied, not...   Jan 16 2009, 12:41 AM
- - vjkane   I just posted a summary of a proposed mission to f...   Jan 16 2009, 01:15 AM
- - Oersted   Ok, we´re all getting serious and discussing signa...   Jan 16 2009, 01:36 AM
- - nprev   Thanks for the interesting summary on your blog, V...   Jan 16 2009, 01:39 AM
- - Juramike   Are CO2:CH4 clathrates possible? If you mean CO2 ...   Jan 16 2009, 02:00 AM
|- - marswalker   Not to mention the levels of UV - once at the surf...   Jan 16 2009, 06:49 PM
- - nprev   Sounds less stable than me after an hour without a...   Jan 16 2009, 03:43 AM
- - eoincampbell   The rules page is quite a read itself... Simple, y...   Jan 16 2009, 04:00 AM
- - dvandorn   While there will be an awful lot of study and theo...   Jan 16 2009, 05:36 AM
|- - HughFromAlice   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jan 16 2009, 03:06 PM) ...   Jan 16 2009, 11:44 AM
|- - silylene   QUOTE (HughFromAlice @ Jan 16 2009, 11:44...   Jan 16 2009, 02:36 PM
- - marsophile   There is one ingredient for habitability that, as ...   Jan 16 2009, 10:59 PM
- - nprev   I thought that there was in fact a small fraction ...   Jan 17 2009, 01:51 AM
|- - mchan   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 16 2009, 05:51 PM) ......   Jan 17 2009, 03:33 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (mchan @ Jan 16 2009, 07:33 PM) Bot...   Jan 17 2009, 05:35 AM
- - nprev   Thank you, MC. My suspicious-sounding words undoub...   Jan 17 2009, 03:45 AM
- - elakdawalla   One of the press at the briefing (I didn't wri...   Jan 17 2009, 06:08 AM
|- - lyford   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Jan 16 2009, 10:08 P...   Jan 18 2009, 08:12 PM
- - imipak   I hadn't heard of the concept of sub-permafros...   Jan 17 2009, 10:11 PM
|- - Fran Ontanaya   QUOTE (imipak @ Jan 17 2009, 11:11 PM) I ...   Jan 18 2009, 02:58 PM
- - silylene   From Science Daily: http://www.sciencedaily.com/re...   Jan 18 2009, 02:24 AM
|- - sci44   QUOTE (silylene @ Jan 18 2009, 02:24 AM) ...   Jan 18 2009, 12:04 PM
|- - AndyG   I'm having a hard time getting my head around ...   Jan 18 2009, 02:36 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (AndyG @ Jan 18 2009, 09:36 AM) how...   Jan 18 2009, 06:24 PM
- - nprev   Good analysis, Sily; thanks! The issue at ha...   Jan 18 2009, 08:05 AM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 18 2009, 03:05 AM) The...   Jan 18 2009, 09:50 AM
- - centsworth_II   Remember about a year ago, NASA was deciding which...   Jan 18 2009, 09:39 AM
|- - HughFromAlice   QUOTE (silylene @ Jan 18 2009, 11:54 AM) ...   Jan 18 2009, 10:46 AM
- - nprev   Oh, definitely it was deliberate; my only question...   Jan 18 2009, 09:17 PM
- - djellison   For information - we have discussed the biology is...   Jan 19 2009, 03:45 PM
- - ngunn   I'd been chewing this over and come to the sam...   Jan 19 2009, 04:19 PM
- - Juramike   Mars methane map made APOD. Global map of methane...   Jan 19 2009, 04:26 PM
- - MarsIsImportant   Much of the known plumes seem to originate from th...   Jan 19 2009, 05:37 PM
- - nprev   Doug, I support the decision because the rationale...   Jan 19 2009, 05:46 PM
- - SpaceListener   QUOTE The plumes of methane appeared over northern...   Jan 19 2009, 07:36 PM
- - ArMaP   Sorry for this question from someone that does not...   Jan 19 2009, 10:27 PM
|- - Juramike   That is an EXCELLENT question. It would imply one...   Jan 19 2009, 11:26 PM
|- - aggieastronaut   it seems someone else answered the question before...   Jan 19 2009, 11:28 PM
- - Juramike   And I think I know why in this particular case it...   Jan 19 2009, 11:58 PM
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