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Venera Images, VENERA 13 fully calibrated image
djellison
post Sep 24 2005, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 24 2005, 04:02 PM)
There is an official Viking Imaging Team portrait out there somewhere, taken with one of the Viking cameras.  At least one person appears in the picture three times.  Several others appear in it twice.

-the other Doug
*


http://history.nasa.gov/SP-425/ch8.htm


I've seen a larger version, and I think that actually, the guy who's on the bottom row - is on the image about 6 times

Doug
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JRehling
post Sep 24 2005, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (Decepticon @ Sep 23 2005, 10:05 PM)
tedstryk I was wondering if you have ever edited the image so it would look as if I was standing on Venus?

I once saw a image like it in astronomy magazine but it was small.
*


The net sum image data taken by a Venera camera would be properly compiled into a cup shape that shows you the horizon on the ends, and does *not* show you the horizon in the middle, but instead shows you the extreme foreground in the middle. Don Davis's sketch shows that cup shape in a grid across the middle of this image:

http://www.donaldedavis.com/2004%20new/VENERGRD.jpg

If the probes all landed straight up, it would be possible to neatly project their images into that cup shape, but if you try, you get results that are a bit off due to the tilt of the landers. I have played with these images to get acceptible looking cups, which I have stored on another computer than the one I'm using now. I frankly find them frustrating because the "best part", the middle horizon, is absent.

Venera 13 and 14 had two cameras facing opposite directions, and Ted's work shows the bits of horizon that are almost-contiguously captured by the side portions of the images.

There's really no better you can do with the raw data.

My attempt to use Venera images to give you the feeling of standing on Venus, I linked to here:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...topic=909&st=75

As I said there, three of these images are 100% Venera brightness data, but I cloned and rearranged portions of the images so that any patch in my image is actual image data from that lander, true to the Y dimension, but slid around in the X to create a rectangular panorama with no gaps and pretty true to real Venus "stuff". The coloring is mainly fictional. The upper right image shows half of the Venera 10 "cup", which gives you an idea of what the whole set of 6 cups (1 each from Venera 9 and 10, 2 from Venera 13 and 14) would look like.

An all-real, non-fragmented panorama of Venus showing more than a bit of the horizon is simply impossible with Venera data. ESA hasn't said much about a Venus lander, so we'll probably see a first real panorama of Venus when the New Frontiers mission to Venus gets picked, which will either be fourth or fifth in that sequence of five (counting New Horizons as #1). That might happen around 2018-2025. A Discovery-class selection could perform that investigation (and others of great interest) but will likely not happen, IMO.
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Bob Shaw
post Sep 24 2005, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (djellison @ Sep 24 2005, 05:05 PM)
I've seen a larger version, and I think that actually, the guy who's on the bottom row - is on the image about 6 times

Doug
*



Doug:

Exactly!

And, if the image had been created in a setting other than that of a desert (ie with straight lines, buildings etc included) then you'd see the funny perspective, too...

Bob Shaw


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vikingmars
post Oct 4 2005, 08:00 PM
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smile.gif Looking again closely at the Venera 13 camera 1 raw data, I made an small interesting (discovery : the lander has moved slightly between the 2nd and 3rd clear pans. So I did a quick pixel overlap between the 2nd and 5th clear pans to gain higher resolution.
Here it is (at right, compared to a "regular" image).
Unfortunately, this is the only segment available with no noise. To build an entire hi-res panoramic picture with no noise, I would need to fill in the gaps of the 2nd pan, with data from 3rd to 5th clear pan, thus useless to make hi-res !

...And see the prominent hill at the horizon !

biggrin.gif Enjoy the two pictures : (i) comparison and (ii) perspective oriented 45 to simulate what you would see if you were on Venus !
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vikingmars
post Oct 4 2005, 08:21 PM
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biggrin.gif ...and I forgot to show you how the camera 1 pan looks like with all bad vertical noise removed by filling all the gaps !
Here it is (still as a raw version). Enjoy !
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ljk4-1
post Oct 4 2005, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (vikingmars @ Oct 4 2005, 03:00 PM)
smile.gif Looking again closely at the Venera 13 camera 1 raw data, I made an small interesting (discovery : the lander has moved slightly between the 2nd and 3rd clear pans. So I did a quick pixel overlap between the 2nd and 5th clear pans to gain higher resolution.
Here it is (at right, compared to a "regular" image).
Unfortunately, this is the only segment available with no noise. To build an entire hi-res panoramic picture with no noise, I would need to fill in the gaps of the 2nd pan, with data from 3rd to 5th clear pan, thus useless to make hi-res !

...And see the prominent hill at the horizon !

biggrin.gif Enjoy the two pictures : (i) comparison and (ii) perspective oriented 45 to simulate what you would see if you were on Venus !
*


Venera 13 transmitted data from the planet's surface for 2 hours and 7 minutes, the longest of any lander there. And of all the landers that contained seismometers, only one detected what may have been a very faint and distant quake.

So this begs the question: If the lander movement was real, was it due to a surface movement, was it slipping off one of the rocks, perhaps because it was on a small hill or an angled rock - or was it pushed? cool.gif


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vikingmars
post Oct 4 2005, 08:50 PM
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smile.gif Well ljk4-1... I don't know about the "Venusquake", but the lander movement is real.
See it herewith enlarged 400% (a shift of 2 pixels vertically between Clear pan 2 and Clear pan 5).
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tedstryk
post Oct 4 2005, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (vikingmars @ Oct 4 2005, 08:50 PM)
smile.gif Well ljk4-1... I don't know about the "Venusquake", but the lander movement is real.
See it herewith enlarged 400% (a shift of 2 pixels vertically between Clear pan 2 and Clear pan 5).
*


I can't tell if the lander has moved of the scanning mechanism has shifted. Don Mitchell suggested that there would be some shifting due to the expansion of spacecraft materials in the Venusian heat.


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ljk4-1
post Oct 4 2005, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (vikingmars @ Oct 4 2005, 03:50 PM)
smile.gif Well ljk4-1... I don't know about the "Venusquake", but the lander movement is real.
See it herewith enlarged 400% (a shift of 2 pixels vertically between Clear pan 2 and Clear pan 5).
*


I am not questioning the veracity of the movement, but I do have these two questions:

1. What made Venera 13 move, especially in such a short time period?

2. Why hasn't this movement ever been brought to attention or noticed before? Or did I just miss something in the literature?

Always a treat to find something new, even in images over two decades old - which reminds me to say, it's about time we put some more landers on Venus!


--------------------
"After having some business dealings with men, I am occasionally chagrined,
and feel as if I had done some wrong, and it is hard to forget the ugly circumstance.
I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard,
and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does
not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is
indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have
no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft."

- Henry David Thoreau, November 15, 1853

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tedstryk
post Oct 4 2005, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Oct 4 2005, 09:03 PM)
I am not questioning the veracity of the movement, but I do have these two questions:

1.  What made Venera 13 move, especially in such a short time period?

2.  Why hasn't this movement ever been brought to attention or noticed before?  Or did I just miss something in the literature?

Always a treat to find something new, even in images over two decades old - which reminds me to say, it's about time we put some more landers on Venus!
*



It also may have shifted as it settled after landing. I don't think expansion and a slight change in the track of the scanning photometer can be ruled out.


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JRehling
post Oct 4 2005, 10:41 PM
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QUOTE (tedstryk @ Oct 4 2005, 03:21 PM)
It also may have shifted as it settled after landing. I don't think expansion and a slight change in the track of the scanning photometer can be ruled out.
*


My bet is that something inside the spacecraft changed. Also, can we exclude the possibility of a 2-pixel shift due to some un-venus-related processing? I can think of scads of ways that postprocessing would lead to such a shift.

If something did take place on Venus, note that these landers were very heavy, and moreover, in comparison to the local environment, also very cold -- they may have caused some contraction of materials in immediate contact with them.
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Bob Shaw
post Oct 4 2005, 10:50 PM
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QUOTE (vikingmars @ Oct 4 2005, 09:00 PM)
And see the prominent hill at the horizon !

*


That's just the rim of Gusev...


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Bob Shaw
post Oct 4 2005, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE (JRehling @ Oct 4 2005, 11:41 PM)
My bet is that something inside the spacecraft changed.
*


Well, the scanning mechanism moved, the filters moved, the whole shooting match heated up... ...it's surely a tribute to the engineers that so few critical dimensions altered!


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RNeuhaus
post Oct 5 2005, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Oct 4 2005, 05:53 PM)
Well, the scanning mechanism moved, the filters moved, the whole shooting match heated up... ...it's surely a tribute to the engineers that so few critical dimensions altered!
*

The Venus's temperature is like to the kitchen oven. I am afraid that the Venera spaceship might still be in good shape....if it is made of kitchen oven's technology...

Rodolfo
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JRehling
post Oct 5 2005, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Oct 5 2005, 09:04 AM)
The Venus's temperature is like to the kitchen oven. I am afraid that the Venera spaceship might still be in good shape....if it is made of kitchen oven's technology...

Rodolfo
*


Well, it's quite a bit hotter than my kitchen's oven, but if the construction is mainly steel, or even aluminum, then all of the Veneras should externally look largely or even perfectly intact today, but many of the innards surely were sensitive to high temperatures. The idea was that thermal inertia would give the craft a time to work on the surface, until the first critical component failed. After that, other harm may have come as well. I suspect any earthly wiring insulation would drip away in venusian heat, although I don't know if the Soviets used a superior brand for Venera or if they merely calculated that something else would fail sooner.

It is enlightening to consider that many materials (sufficient even for some science instruments) can easily be made to withstand long stays in venusian heat. The problem is that electronics developed for that purpose do not exist, so the choice is either to expect short survival time, use a nuclear reactor to run a refrigeration system, invent the high-temperature electronics a craft would need -- or some combination of those three.
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