Going To Mogollon..., ...and points South Options

[JTN]

If the IDD breaks, then do what can be done with where-ever it is, and then just start driving. If it breaks - so what ,it's expired anyway.

Could IDD failure endanger the rover's other functions?
(e.g., if it snaps, it could foul the wheels or something)

[jabe]

Could IDD failure endanger the rover's other functions?
(e.g., if it snaps, it could foul the wheels or something)

I'm curious if the arm is snapped off and wires get "crossed" can they isolate the system so it isn't a constant power drain..
oh the worries we have for the rovers even though they should have died a LONG time ago..oops..hope I didn't jinx them..
jb

[djellison]

Could IDD failure endanger the rover's other functions?
(e.g., if it snaps, it could foul the wheels or something)

I guess it could - it's not the sort of situation I imagine they'd want to get in to, but there's nothing they could to to 'jetison' the IDD

Doug

[centsworth_II]

If the IDD breaks while extended they could drive backwards, dragging it along, taking care not to snag it on a rock.

[odave]

I hate contributing more negative waves to the discussion, but with all the recent hubbub about the NASA budget proposal, would funding for MER get cut if Oppy's IDD were to go out? I suppose a bean counter might think that with Oppy's capability impaired, it should get less resources, if not shut down?

No doubt everyone on the MER team would fight that kind of decision tooth and nail...

[ElkGroveDan]

I wonder if Victoria will become the HP of Meridiani.
[/i][/color]

Eagle Crater was the HP of Meridiani.

I'm curious if the arm is snapped off and wires get "crossed" can they isolate the system so it isn't a constant power drain..

If they have the ability to adjust the current to just one motor in the complex arm, then my guess is yes, they have the ability to isolate any circuit.

That said, a lot of things may happen, but short of a direct hit from a meteorite, I can't imagine anything in Opportunity's present environment that would cause the arm to "snap off". The present arm joint concerns center around functionality. This is a craft that was designed to mechanically withstand the g-forces of an interplanetary launch as well as the subtantial g's of the air bag bounce and roll. I am told there are MER's made of LEGO, but this isn't one of them.

[djellison]

I hate contributing more negative waves to the discussion, but with all the recent hubbub about the NASA budget proposal, would funding for MER get cut if Oppy's IDD were to go out? I suppose a bean counter might think that with Oppy's capability impaired, it should get less resources, if not shut down?

No doubt everyone on the MER team would fight that kind of decision tooth and nail...

I think as long as one rover is driving, then the money will still come, all be it in increasingly smaller ammounts. If we end up with a dead rover in terms of mobility, then there's only so long one can justify using it (a purgatory type of time probably- 3 months maybe ) - at that point you have to admit that there's not much more to do ( even JB said they were running out of things to do here at Erebus ) - and start a very restricted mode of operation - just occasional contacts etc.

Remember - they fund MER, not Spirit and Opportunity - it's one pot of cash, so as long as one is still doing good stuff, I think the money will still flow. The backlash and outrage if they do otherwise would 1) be audible in Washington from here in Leicester and 2) be huge in the US as well.

Doug

[Tesheiner]

Will we see "Oppy leaves Olympia (aka Purgatory II)" scene, take #3, tomorrow?

Just a guess/hope, no planning data yet at the tracking web.

[sranderson]

Unfortunately, we haven't found anything new with Opportunity in about a year. I can set up my geology shop at a random 2-foot exposure of layered rock near my house, study it ad nauseum for months and not really learn anything about the big picture of even the local area, let alone the whole planet. I probably won't be able to tell if there is water on the Earth, unless it rains while I am there. Are we trying to prove that if you look long enough at a single grain of sand, you can derive the whole structure of the universe?

There has to be a balance between moving on to new things and making sure you don't miss anything. If Lewis and Clarke were so focused on not missing any detail, they would have never got more than a few miles outside of St. Louis. They missed a lot of things. They knew that they had to miss them if they wanted to get the big picture.

By studying every single rock that appears interesting, you are thowing away the chance at finding great new things -- especially at this stage of the mission where the local area has already been characterized in detail.

The basic philosophy over the last 10 months has been a grave error -- a waste of 10 vital months on Mars.

The rovers have wheels for a reason. You are likely to increase the knowledge gained by orders of magnitude for every mile you drive.

In this type of exploration you must understand, acknowledge, and accept that you will miss some things. But on average, what you gain from looking at new things will vastly surpass what you miss.

Scott
.

[djellison]

Again - you're making the mistake in assuming the scientists CHOSE to stop at Purgatory and Erebus. They didn't. These are situations forced upon them by engineering limitations. There is no choice to be made. Listen to Jim Bell - they WANT to leave Erebus, they WANT to get moving, they WANT to get to Victoria JUST as much as anyone else.

To say they've learnt nothing in the last year is an horrific underestimated of what Opportunity has been up to.

"In this type of exploration you must understand, acknowledge, and accept that you will miss some things. But on average, what you gain from looking at new things will vastly surpass what you miss."

An no one knows that more than the MER team. Look at the progress they made when engineering allowed them to! 220M in a single day - that's HUGE. They barely stopped at Viking, Voyager, Vostok, Naturaliste, Argo, Arvin, Jason, James Caird, nor way back at Anatolia or Fram.....and when they did stop for science when first getting to some Erebus outcrop, they found a new previously unseen coating on the rocks adding more recent data to the story of water.

Look at Spirit, listen to Jim talk about how they totally passed up some AMAZING targets between El Dorado and Home Plate - they utterly utterly RACED that distance, these guys know how and when to give it the berries for covering ground. When they can - when it is appropriate - they do.

There is a difference between wanting to do something, and being ABLE to do something. Only the people who designed, built, and control these vehicles know their engineering limitations and know how much they can or can not do at any time. Criticism is unjustified.

Everyone, EVERYONE wants to foot-to-the-floor-to-Victoria. But just because you want something badly, doesnt make it an engineering posibility. It's that simple.


Doug

[Bill Harris]

<snip
The basic philosophy over the last 10 months has been a grave error -- a waste of 10 vital months on Mars.
<snip>

Scott

For the most part I agree with what you've just said, but I don't think that the past few months have been a grave error. Since leaving the Heatshield Oppy made good progress until getting mired at Purgatory. The mission lost a couple of months getting free again, and Oppy then made good progress to the Erebus Highway and around the north Erebus rim and dunefield to Olympia. I can justify some time spent to study the Burns formation at this site since it is markedly different than what we saw at Eagle and Endurance. Oppy spent a proper amount of time working from site to site here at Olympia. But the problem with the IDD developed and it is unfortunate that we've spent 90 days in one spot. I'm not going to make a call to say if the time spent evaluating the IDD was justifiable, we just don't have the background that went into that decision. When the IDD does get stowed properly, we'll make it to the Mogollon Rim and Payson area, study them and make our way to Victoria.

I wish that we hadn't had the bad luck and lost 5 months, but that is the way it is.

--Bill

[neb]

A panoramic view of Mogollon.

Taken on Sol 734 with the L2 pancam.

jvandriel

Great panorama: It exhibits the point about visual analysis. Has anyone discussed the semi-circular fractures visible in this image.. We have been seeing them for some time and IMO are geologic anomalies that may have a bearing on the history of what we are viewing.

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

I guess they're going to have to make some tough decisions on what kind of mission they want to run with Opportunity now - in light of all the technical problems with the IDD arm, the days of driving and just deploying the IDD if they see something interesting seem to be gone sadly.

[sranderson]

Only the people who designed, built, and control these vehicles know their engineering limitations and know how much they can or can not do at any time. Criticism is unjustified.

Doug

I was one of the guys who helped design and build the vehicles. The philosophy is clearly biased way too far on the side of studying every grain of dust to death. I am also concerned that we no longer have the A-team making decisions on a day-to-day basis. The result is many lost sols.

Scott

[neb]

For the most part I agree with what you've just said, but I don't think that the past few months have been a grave error. Since leaving the Heatshield Oppy made good progress until getting mired at Purgatory. The mission lost a couple of months getting free again, and Oppy then made good progress to the Erebus Highway and around the north Erebus rim and dunefield to Olympia. I can justify some time spent to study the Burns formation at this site since it is markedly different than what we saw at Eagle and Endurance. Oppy spent a proper amount of time working from site to site here at Olympia. But the problem with the IDD developed and it is unfortunate that we've spent 90 days in one spot. I'm not going to make a call to say if the time spent evaluating the IDD was justifiable, we just don't have the background that went into that decision. When the IDD does get stowed properly, we'll make it to the Mogollon Rim and Payson area, study them and make our way to Victoria.

I wish that we hadn't had the bad luck and lost 5 months, but that is the way it is.

--Bill

I think you can guess who the geologists are. I agree with Scott, the chemistry of a rock doesn't reveal much unless you view it in as large a context as possible. I am not big on correlating wide spread outcrops based on chemistry.