Endeavour Drive - Drivability analysis Options

[djellison]

http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200809191

You can listen via NPR, or via one of the web feeds that are listed on the site, but make sure you do listen if you can.

[djellison]

Tune in now

[djellison]

"What's next for Opportunity - time for another martian road trip - perhaps a really long one?"

[djellison]

Paraphrasing Squyres :

Where to now?

Well, we've exhausted the easy places - time to do something hard

Bold, difficult, maybe impossible.

To the SE of this at a distance of 12km, 7 miles is an enormous crater - we're going to head of towards it. I think it could take a couple of years.

We think we can drive a lot faster than we have in the past.

We're rolling the dice in a sense - we think it's the right direction to go anyway.

Alfred McEwen -

October 10th - new HiRISE image to map the gap between the big crater and Victoria

Rui.... you have clearance to explode.

[Tman]

Rui.... you have clearance to explode.

[mhoward]

NO! WAY!

You guys must be pulling my leg. If not, this is the grandest news I've heard in a couple years.

[dvandorn]

Last I checked, the date isn't April 1....

-the other Doug


edit -- by the way: YAHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

[imipak]

Harrumble!!

[David S.]

That's just amazing !! This is going to be one hell of a route map to maintain

[paxdan]

mars EXPLORATION rovers

Am delighted by this news.

[tedstryk]

Awesome - we may not get what we want, but I'd rather Oppy die trying than miss out on some great science by trying to be safe at this point.

[Pavel]

That's Ithaca crater!!! It cannot be anything else!!! Let's go to Ithaca now and hug Steve Squyres!!!

[djellison]

That's Ithaca crater!

Sorry - if I didn't make it clear - yes - it is - and they've named it Endeavour

[vjkane]

As an American taxpayer, I must say that I wish all government programs produced the returns and guts of this one!

Thank god for flat terrain. 12 km is a long way at rover speed and forever if you have to keep dodging obstacles.

[centsworth_II]

I knew it all along.
Just think, a couple years from now opportunity may be upstaging MSL!

[odave]

That was quite a show; an all-star panel plus the full hour on Mars.

Steve did say that they wouldn't even attempt the trip without HiRISE, and they'd be shooting for 100m/day.

[djellison]

Just got word from SS - the name Endeavour is unofficial at this stage.

This crater is large and very distant, and it's questionable whether or not we'll ever get there. So I don't really feel that we have "earned" the right to name it, at least not now. We are going to suggest the name Endeavour to the International Astronomical Union, because it both keeps with our current theme for naming craters at Meridiani, and it is consistent with IAU standards for naming martian craters -- Endeavour is also the name of a town in Saskatchewan. Anyway, until the IAU gives us their blessing for this one, it's important to treat the name as informal and provisional.

[ElkGroveDan]

I hate to spoil the party, but (as the saying goes) has anyone else noticed the elephant in the room?

...the rover experienced a spike in the electrical current to the motor for its left front wheel, an event ominously similar to what Spirit experienced just before it lost the use of its right front wheel for good back in March 2006... Not surprisingly, the team decided without much debate that it was time for Opportunity to rove on and out of Victoria. "We want to get out of the crater as quickly as possible," Callas said

Mars Exploration Rovers Update July 31st

[charborob]

According to this old press release, the funding for the fifth mission extension of the MER rovers carries them "possibly through 2009". If Opportunity is still alive then, let's hope that the funding will follow for another extension.

12 km at 100m/day is only 4 months, though

[Paolo Amoroso]

This is a marsathon.


Paolo Amoroso

[Vultur]

WOW. This is incredible news. I wonder if Oppy can really make 100m/day reliably?

[djellison]

Every day? No.

But back in the day - James Caird to just before Purgatory was getting on for 1.5km in 30 days.

Doug

[Tesheiner]

Unbelievable! Incredible! Wonderful!


Now, if we don't have news about Rui/Ustrax in the next hours/days I will be very worried. Such news might be too much for his heart.

[brellis]

This Big Crater fan says Yahoooo!!

[Paolo Amoroso]

This would be the largest crater on another world ever visited so close at ground level, right?


Paolo Amoroso

[charborob]

This would be the largest crater on another world ever visited so close at ground level, right?

Lunokhod 2 landed inside LeMonnier crater, but I didn't check how big it is compared to "the big crater"

[fredk]

And we can't forget Gusev crater!

A new adventure! I can't wait to start the new road trip!

[Shaka]

Don't forget Gusev.

So passes the torch...from Victoria to Endeavour... From Magellan to Cook...from Portugal to Yorkshire...awesome!
No one can say our Mighty PIs lack ambition or audacity.
Let it be! Southward the wagons!

[ustrax]

I am experiencing so many different amazing feelings...so many...
Spirit and Opportunity drive me to tears...
Are you guys aware of the magnificency of this mission? Yes you are...
Besides the fantastic technical achievement, the rovers seem to be part of a tale, of a story that previously written wouldn't sound so epic!
THEY are legend...
And the people making it happen...wow...you make us believe that EVERYTHING is possible.
Opportunity, dear Opportunity...take us to Endeavour...make of this words your fuel!

[djellison]

Rui, do you not approve?

[ustrax]

Doug...from this guys? Whatever they want whenever they want!
Man...this post keeps banging in my head for a long time...
We're mad?...
What about Squyres and friends?!

Tesheiner...ready for some years of hard mapping?

[aldo12xu]

Coming out of lurk mode to say this is simply incredible news! It reminds me of when it was decided to drive to and climb the Columbia Hills. Yes, 12km is a long way off but, man, these machines and the JPL team have proven themselves over and over. It's testamant to all that's good about the human spirit.

A toast to Opportunity! (Where's that virtual beer??)

Long may she rove!!

Cheers everybody,
Aldo.

[mhoward]

I'll drink to that. This news makes me proud to be a human being. It's simply inspiring. It doesn't matter if Opportunity ultimately makes it there - what matters is that the attempt is made.

Okay, yes - actually getting there would be fantastic, too. But who knows what we might find along the way?

[Guest_Bobby_*]

Even Obama or McCain can't outdo Opportunity

Does anyone have any overhead pictures of the area between Victoria Crater and Endeavour Crater.
From the overhead shots. Which way should we go. Are there anything interesting along the way that
we should stop at??? I figure we should start the trip now and study the cobbles and anything else down
The Yellow Brick Road

[ustrax]

Okay, yes - actually getting there would be fantastic, too. But who knows what we might find along the way?

Precisely...that is why I find that Ithaca poem so inspiring...so terribly fitting for this crazy, C-R-A-Z-Y odyssey...
And proud...yes...we're sharing the same view...just sent some words to our Master and Commander that reflect that feeling:
"A whole new adventure ahead, so many things to see, explore and learn about...
So many miles of amazement, terrestrial dream and martian reality...
From deserts to mountains, from drama to epic achievements, from here to there, from question to answer...
You, your team, Spirit and Opportunity, make me so proud of mankind!"

Doug...wouldn't it be possible to, somehow, gather the work done by some guys here regarding possible paths to Ith...sorry...Endeavour, and merge in a single thread?

[Ant103]

As Mr Burns said : "Excellent!"

Yes, excellent news. I can't believe this. This seems to be so … unrealizable. But Oppy shows us so many thing we believe unrealizable.

So, GO Oppy, go .

[Stu]

Just catching up on the Big News, having been out during the evening...

I know that when we discussed this possibility earlier I was very cynical about setting off on such a long trek, but I'm happy to eat my words and to have been proved wrong. It shows just how brave the MER team are, and how determined they are to squeeze every last precious drop of knowledge out of this mission before it ends.

And I'm happy for ustrax, too. Always the optimist, always the explorer, always the adventurer. Walking alongside Oppy every inch of the way with a hand on her back, saying "Onwards... onwards..."

And off we go...!

[ustrax]

Just got some words from SS...I never doubted that he was one of ours...the "Rove till Death Brotherhood"

"Well, we'll see what happens. The wheels could fall off tomorrow, after all... this is an old rover! But this is a good direction to travel whether we get there or not, as I explained in the interview. And, to me, this goal just >feels< right. Better to attempt something nearly impossible and die trying than simply live out our time doing things that have been done before."

Yeap...it feels soooo damn right!

Rovers parked in craters...

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

This is sooo exciting !!!!

Don't we have a picture of this crater somewhere? I'm trying to recall what it looks like.

[elakdawalla]

I found a good CTX image and posted it in this blog entry; for lower-res but wider-field images the best bet is HRSC. Here's one set of HRSC images (preview and links to others here). I can't download and mess with them because I'm at the in-laws', with a less-than-reliable connection; someone else here please have at it!

--Emily

[ustrax]

Sanguine?!...

Sunspot and Emily, here's an image covering the whole crater with the available images at the time.

And a proposed path just to reignite this discussion...

Oh boy oh boy...Xmas has arrived earlier this year...this will be sooo cool!

EDITED: And a beautiful Endeavour postcard including Victoria...

[MahFL]

Wow, I always wanted to go there.

[BrianL]

I figure we should start the trip now and study the cobbles and anything else down
The Yellow Brick Road

And now to bring everyone back down to Earth, I figure it's going to be awhile before they set out. The new HiRise images won''t come until Oct 10, and then I figure there will be much planning done on a feasible route. MER time seems to move much more slowly than UMSF time. I see them puttering about the vicinity on their cobble-quest until late in the year. Maybe we need a poll on when everyone thinks The Really Big Trip will commence.

[mhoward]

The new HiRise images won''t come until Oct 10

I'm guessing you are probably correct about it being awhile before they set out. However, considerable area extending to the south and somewhat east of Victoria has already been covered by MRO. The new image they are referring to may be to cover the remaining distance to Endeavour.

[Vultur]

Looking at the image of Big Crater/Endeavour in this post, it seems like the crater walls are higher in two areas directly across from each other - the east and west ends. Neither the north rim nor the south has high walls. I wonder why?

[marswiggle]

Seems that at least two HiRISE images of Endeavour itself already exist, PSP_005779_1775 and PSP_007849_1775. In colour, too.

One of them includes the southern part of the western rim, a crop of which I'm attaching a bit hesitatingly (not knowing exactly what I see). This picture was exported as a half size jpeg from the quicklook jp2 product.

Added yet another half-res crop showing a curiously shaped pattern inside the crater bowl.

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Zeke4ther]

This is truely amazing news. The journey will be awsome.

[belleraphon1]

Ah.. ITHACA....

What a delight....

"I went to it with the defenseless disposition
with which we approach the unknown,
expecting a greater answer than our painful question."
Ithaca By Francisca Aguirre, Ana Valverde Osan

Travel onward little rover... we are with ya!!!!

Craig

[HughFromAlice]

Getting pointed to podcasts like this and then to see the discussions afterwards is one of the reasons that I enjoy UMSF so much!

Steve Squyres comments: To me, three interesting things stood out.

1 - Due to combination of software updates, smarter team and HiRise imaging he is expecting Oppy to average 100 metres a day or "even better."
2 - He made no mention of the extent to which potential wheel problems were factored in in terms of choosing this long range target.
3 - He said that they'll be going in the right direction anyway. Rocks from deeper stratigraphic layers thrown a long way from Endeavour/Ithaca crater.

Made me think.....
1 - Even better? That's an exciting target!! Can it be done?
2 - I admire a team that knows when to think like explorers! What is the % probability of reaching Endeavour/Ithaca? Any predictions? Me (optimist) - 80%.
3 - Nearest ejected rocks how far from Vic crater?

[MarsIsImportant]

Wow!!! Wow! Triple Wow!

Honestly...they said it might take two years to get there. So, I give it about a 30% chance of actually making it to a rim. I have no idea what condition is will be in at that time. The really interesting stuff is along the interior and north of the South rim. That would be shear heaven if Oppy could get there; but that almost doubles the trip length. I don't think that is possible.

This is such a large crater that they need to pick a rim to go to before they start the trip. It might make a big difference as to the path they take.

[CosmicRocker]

Outstanding! I'd like to say so much more, but you people have used up all of the relevant superlatives, and have even invented a few new ones.
For those of you who, like me, missed the original webcast, here is a link to NPR's archived audio.

12 km at 100m/day is only 4 months, though

Just to put things into perspective for readers who may not be as familiar with the history of the rovers as some of us MER addicts, 12 km is approximately as far as Opportunity has already roved since it landed in Eagle Crater. As of the latest update, it has gone about 11,782.10 meters (7.32 miles).

Just got some words from SS...I never doubted that he was one of ours...the "Rove till Death Brotherhood"

"Well, we'll see what happens. The wheels could fall off tomorrow, after all... this is an old rover! But this is a good direction to travel whether we get there or not, as I explained in the interview. And, to me, this goal just >feels< right. Better to attempt something nearly impossible and die trying than simply live out our time doing things that have been done before."

Yeap...it feels soooo damn right! ...

I agree, Rui. We're all attracted to the MERs by the exploration aspect of this pioneer mission. Let's get on with it. It is not necessary to delay in this area, unless the team feels they have unfinished business here. We have enough HiRise and other imagery to get started. They should have plenty of time to analyze the October 9/10th HiRise imagery before before they run out of driveway.
..............................................................

It was great to get this very nice update from several Mars exploration teams, but NPR's "Click and Clack" format for this program was seriously annoying to me. This isn't funny, it's science, and it's serious. That is not intended to be overly critical. It was an excellent program that covered many aspects of the discussion, from geology to biology, and various areas in between. I'm happy about that aspect.

I would like to hear more about the columnar jointing and other theories that were discussed. The webcast sounded to me like a well rehearsed program, as opposed to a typical update from our various sources. What do you people think?

[BrianL]

It is not necessary to delay in this area, unless the team feels they have unfinished business here. We have enough HiRise and other imagery to get started. They should have plenty of time to analyze the October 9/10th HiRise imagery before before they run out of driveway.

That might not be the best approach. As was pointed out by Doug in the earlier discussions, there appear to be significant ripples on the direct path. I think the suggestion was a better route might be to head NE before heading south. This journey will be long enough and hard enough without getting part way then being forced to turn back. I would wait for the complete picture before committing to a route.

Of course, that's the intellectual part of me coming through, which in my case, will always be the minority report. The larger part of me did some mental cartwheels upon seeing this new thread, and wanted to shout, "Yeah baby, put the pedal to the metal"! Well, as much as a rover can, anyway.

[djellison]

I'd like to see end to end HiRISE imagery before we set out - a month, maybe two - and seriously - there is still fun to be had at Victoria anyway.

How else are we going to play the part of noisy back-seat drivers?

[Tesheiner]

Speaking of drivers, I believe some of the real ones already heard the news and said: "Are you crazy?!?".
Just check the latest hazcam pictures (here: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...cam/2008-09-19/) to find that Opportunity was commanded to dig in deeper in the ripple she's currently parked.
A riot, maybe?

[Astro0]

...before we set out - a month, maybe two...

Didn't SS say that they were going to set out on the journey "within the next week", "hit the gas probably in the middle of next week"?
This was at 26m12s into the NPR broadcast.

Maybe they have enough HiRise imagery to go on to get started. At least head off across the annulus.

[SFJCody]

Onwards!

Anyone have any idea what the maximum driving distance per day would be on this terrain if (cross fingers this won't happen) one of the wheels did fail? I'm thinking it might be further than Spirit has been able to achieve in rocky Gusev.

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[ustrax]

...before we set out - a month, maybe two...

Didn't SS say that they were going to set out on the journey "within the next week", "hit the gas probably in the middle of next week"?
This was at 26m12s into the NPR broadcast.

Maybe they have enough HiRise imagery to go on to get started. At least head off across the annulus.

Yeap...that is correct...
Here's the rough transcript, including the 100 meters (or more!) driving distance per day...:

"IF - When will the rover decide to go on that journey? Kick the tires and getting going?

SS - I think it’s probably going to be within next week Ira…we’ve pretty much finished up our work at Victoria Crater…we’re hit gas probably middle of next week.

IF - Wow…and how far per day gonna make its way?

SS - We think that we can average a 100 meters each day that we drive and…I…you know…I should point out what you asked Alfred earlier, was HiRISE envolved in planning this drive and his response was actually way too modest…the reality is that HiRISE is what is enabling this drive. We wouldn’t dare try this if we hadn’t the HiRISE data but what HiRISE does is provides us with spectacular roadmap that tells us how to get from here to where we’re going so…we think that with the HiRISE data as a guide we can probably do better than a hundred meters a hundred yards in a day."

Regarding the NE path...that reminded me of dvandorn's ABC (Doug's Athos, Porthos and Aramis) craters path, will this be it or is Oppy to follow NE but make the E turn closer to Victoria?

EDITED: SFJCody, Squyres announcement was made just two days before completing the two years anniversary of the first time you mentioned this "crazy" idea...

[Astro0]

Here's a nice view of the Road to Endeavour Crater. Enjoy


Astro0

[SFJCody]

There is a pleasingly fractal quality to Opportunity's (Eagle->Endurance->Victoria->Endeavour) crater hopping.

[Stu]

Here's a nice view of the Road to Endeavour Crater. Enjoy
Astro0

Enjoy?!?!? How the frak can I enjoy it when I've just fallen off my chair in shock?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?! You've really got to give us some kind of warning before you post things like that my friend!!

[Tesheiner]

Do we have DEM data of this area?
Doug, what about a fly-by movie of the journey from VC to Endeavour?

[SFJCody]

The hematite signature is weak at the centre of Endeavour. Now this could be due to dark basaltic drift deposits... or it could be due to an exposure of the (phyllosilicate bearing) material underlying the sulphate/hematite plains!



Edit: Looking at this pre MER landing image of the hematite signal strength it seems one of the two images (either this one or the one from the MSL Landing site workshop) is misaligned. If the older image is correct the low hematite signal is in the eastern rim of Endeavour.

Edit 2: I'm convinced the older map is the correct one, and that the map attached to this post from the MSL Landing site workshop is incorrectly georeferenced (areoreferenced?)

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[ustrax]

The hematite signature is weak at the centre of Endeavour. Now this could be due to dark basaltic drift deposits... or it could be due to an exposure of the (phyllosilicate bearing) material underlying the sulphate/hematite plains!

Of course you're not thinking we'll make THAT far?...
Regarding the signature, it seems to correspond, roughly, to the lower part of the terrasses we can see in this image.
Click this one for the full context.
If Miyamoto was almost out of MSL landing site race now it is done for good...Oppy will make it there!...

Astro0...damn you for coming up with stuff like this...beautiful!

[marsbug]

Thats what I'm talkin' about! Go oppy! Mars is along way off so: GO OPPY!

[mhoward]

That image is just perfect, Astro0.

[djellison]

"within the next week",

I hadn't heard that bit before I had to set off to Muenster for EPSC. But I have now

Do we have DEM data of this area?

We only have a DEM of Victoria.

Doug

[fredk]

Having finally listened to the interview, my favourite line is definitely

we've exhausted the easy places, so it's time to do something hard

One thing to add is I think Endeavour is 12km as the Martian crow flies, so it would be a fair bit farther for a realistic zig-zaggy route. And of course it depends on what part of Endeavour they choose as the first target. The far (SE) rim looks maybe most interesting, then the west rim, and then the north rim. Or would they be more interested in driving into the interior?

My guess is still that the north rim would be easiest to get to, by heading NE and then following the flat "tarmac" east. But who knows - maybe with hirise they think they could make their way fast through dunes. Also Squyres said they're interested in science on the way southeast - that has to be an important consideration when the final target is maybe two years away!

Whatever route they choose, I can't wait to get on board as a back seat driver!

[Phil Stooke]

My impression from the available HiRISE images is that the terrain to the south is more favorable. Due south off the Victoria ejecta, south through the drifts until they shrink to more manageable proportions, then east or southeast, passing a nice mid-size impact crater about half way to Endeavour.

Phil

[mars loon]

just catching up

This is just FANTASTIC news. absolutly the best decision to explore new terrotory

A goal truely worthy and befitting our beloved Opportunity

maybe she'll see more of the interior of Victoria along the way

ken

[Marz]

My impression from the available HiRISE images is that the terrain to the south is more favorable. Due south off the Victoria ejecta, south through the drifts until they shrink to more manageable proportions, then east or southeast, passing a nice mid-size impact crater about half way to Endeavour.

Phil

Zis is zuper nuts! The distance from Victoria to Ithaca is shorter than the diameter of Ithaca itself! Poor Oppy will need to drive an additional 10km if she is to reach the floor of the crater. The size of Ithaca is so huge that exploring it will require traversing further distances than it took to get there!

So, has a pool started for Oppy's arrival date? I'll put in an overly optimistic guess of Sol 1812 (just so I can play the overture with some fireworks when the day comes).

C'mon Oppy, put dat hammer down an git-a-goin!

[centsworth_II]

So, has a pool started for Oppy's arrival date?

At least if we see any beacons, there won't be a debate over "near rim" or "far rim".

[ElkGroveDan]

So, has a pool started for Oppy's arrival date?

I believe Doug has said we've had enough of pools.

No. 100,000,000 times no.

A disucssion, a debate, great. But not a 'pool' again. Please.

[pac56]

The HRSCview site lets you explore the (big crater) Endeavour from all directions...neat! This image is looking south.
(1st post )

[ustrax]

Speaking of beacons, I foresee with great expectation the growing, sol after sol, of Endeavour's peaks in the rover's horizon...
Will it be possible to image the sun setting behind those hills?...
So many things to see yet...so many things to marvel us yet...


A bit off topic, or not, weird days this ones...weird but so pleasant ones...
Yesterday excitement brought by the perspective of a whole new quest for our beloved Oppy, today I've received a friend at home who I didn't saw for quite a while and he had a late birthday gift for me...guess what it was...a collection of Official Mars Exploration Rover Mission JFK Colorized Half Dollars...

This babies are sooo part of our lifes but they can still provide moments of true joy and unexpected surprises...if all relations were like this...

[Phil Stooke]

"Will it be possible to image the sun setting behind those hills?..."

Maybe later! Right now, it would be rising behind them.

Phil

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Is there going to be a official press release about this? Or even a media teleconference...it's certainly news worthy of one.

[RoverDriver]

I'd like to see end to end HiRISE imagery before we set out - a month, maybe two - and seriously - there is still fun to be had at Victoria anyway.

How else are we going to play the part of noisy back-seat drivers?

Doug, as anticipated privately, I'm going to break out of my silent lurking. First of all let's make sure everyone understands I'm speaking for myself only, if my employer wants to speak they have their own channels and definitely I'm not one of them. That's what my signature says, and hopefully the meaning will be clear to everyone. Hopefully I won't get into trouble for posting here, I like my job and I'd like to keep it.

Speaking for myself, I did appreciate immensely the suggestions, comments and good ideas that I read on this forum. Besides keeping my morale high I picked up many good ideas from all of you. It is pretty amazing what you have been able to infer from the little information that has been released.

Is is time to hit the road. Once we extricate the rover from the current position (we tried to reach a pretty compelling science target knowing full well the likelihood of success was low) we will head for Endevour. I have seen some suggestions from you guys about paths to follow. While it is premature to analyze the terrain until we have HiRISE, I'd like to understand what was your line of reasoning behind the path, what data you used and how you made the assessment.

Paolo

[Stu]

Welcome, Paolo!! Good to have you here in person rather than in (lurking) spirit!

[SFJCody]

I have seen some suggestions from you guys about paths to follow. While it is premature to analyze the terrain until we have HiRISE, I'd like to understand what was your line of reasoning behind the path, what data you used and how you made the assessment.

Paolo

The rover driver on the forum asking us about the potential routes we've come up with! Now this is surreal.

Anyway, for this map I took a direct straight line route from Victoria to Endeavour (using a THEMIS mosaic assembled by slinted)and split it up into 'legs' determined by terrain type. I added a kink to get the rover to a moderate sized crater ('mini-Endurance') on the grounds that it would be a good window for the project scientists to check geological heterogeneity. I put the end of the journey at the hills of the western rim as the MGS hematite map seems to (maybe possibly) show a compositional difference at the visible rim of Endeavour (both west and east), although it's difficult to be certain.

Thinking about it, though, it might be better if I had put Leg A directly due east across Victoria's annulus rather than due south. That would make Leg B through the Etched Terrain more south-trending and reduce the number of times the rover would have to cross over the ripples.

You know you have one of the best jobs in the world, right?

[Shaka]

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by,

All hail our Steersman on the Meridian Sea - Sea of Hematite!
Guiding Hand of our Quest - Pilot of our Voyager Dream! Hail!

We each have dreamed that we stood at the helm in your place.
We would oftimes steer for the shallows, where sulfate bedrock shows itself, in promise of firm footing.
If there is no choice but the billowing sands, then hasten we where the ripple depths are less - keep to the furrow and shun the crests!

For that we need appropriate commands to the wheels. Does Oppy have this inherent software for autonomous cruising in the furrow? Then sail on!
Does your experience show the safest angle to cross the crests when unavoidable? Is the distance between crests a measure of the safety in crossing them?
Does the darkness of the ripples from orbit correlate with softness or depth of the sand? Go toward the light!

SAIL ON, O SHIP of STATE!
(oops...political...ignore previous.)

[RoverDriver]

The rover driver on the forum asking us about the potential routes we've come up with! Now this is surreal.
...

What is surreal is a rover driver asking for directions

The thing is, the terrain is so vast, hazards potentially everywhere that I will take suggestions and "heads up" from all. On my end it is good because the more eyes I have the better it is. Yes, we do have many drivers and they do have the final saying, but as I said I have seen in the past some suggestions that clearly show you know your way around.

From your perspective, and as a separate attempt from Scott Maxwell's Mars 3.0, I want you to get a better taste of what it is to explore another planet. What tradeoffs you need to consider, what it means to come up with tricks to keep the rover going.

Unfortunately there will be instances where I will not be able to divulge or discuss some technical details which means certain decisions seem puzzling and contrary to common sense. Don't be alarmed and/or frustrated. Your trust in the MER team should not be diminished because I decided to start posting.

I do realize I have a great job. Not only I get to explore a planet, but I get to work with the finest minds I have ever met in my last 26 years of my engineering life. I wish you were part of all this, more than you already are, and if Scott is successful maybe you will.

Paolo

[RoverDriver]

...
Thinking about it, though, it might be better if I had put Leg A directly due east across Victoria's annulus rather than due south. That would make Leg B through the Etched Terrain more south-trending and reduce the number of times the rover would have to cross over the ripples.
...

OK, now think what would be the easiest and safest route to Endevour if you did not have to stop for science. I'm not saying we will not, not saying we will either because I do not know at this time how many and where the stopovers are. Let's get the ball (wheels) rolling and get some ideas out. Don't flood me with PMs or e-mails , there is plenty of time to sit and think. Unless we find a way to flap the wings of Opportunity's deck it will take quite some time to go around Victoria. So far I heard we should drive CCW around Victoria and that part is already covered by HiRISE. How far from the rim would you keep the rover? Keep in mind that a couple of stops on the rim might be requested.

The reply is attached to this message but of course the question is for all of you. This is just an experiment, let's see what happens.

Paolo

[briv1016]

There was mention how the upgraded rover software is one of the reasons they decided to even trying this incredible feat. Does anyone know if the software engineers are still on the rover team and if there are any plans to further upgrade the software?

[dvandorn]

I've looked at it from a trafficability standpoint on pre-HiRISE images, but assuming the darker, almost non-textured plains to the east-northeast of Victoria are analogous to the plains around Eagle and Endurance (which they resemble), it seems to me that a good route skirts along the northern border of the ripple fields that lie in the direct path to Endeavour, and then drops pretty much straight south to the north rim of the big crater.

Basically, head out north-northeast, go straight east along the flat ground north of the ripple fields, and then duck south when you're due north of the north rim of Endeavour. When the ground rises, you're there.

It keeps you out of the worst of the ripple fields for the entire trip, it brings you down onto a slightly more pronounced portion of Endeavour's rim than its northwest rim, which is almost entirely buried. It's a little more actual mileage, but stays on that flat, firm tarmac for almost the entire drive. I think that might be a good idea, especially if you have to drag a wheel. I have the nagging suspicion that if Oppy started dragging a wheel, it would never be able to safely cross a good-sized ripple again...

-the other Doug

[BrianL]

That's what appears to be the quickest route to me as well. Fredk's map shows this general approach nicely, whether it is precisely the path to take or not. It will be interesting to see whether additional HiRISE imaging supports this as the quickest route. Whether it is the most scientifically rewarding route is, of course, another matter.

[nprev]

...I just now got home (almost literally!) from a week in Kin-cho, Okinawa with no Internet access and figure "ho-hum, only been a week, let's see what's shakin' on UMSF"...and I see this!!! WOW! WOW! WOW!

RD, thanks so much for posting & letting us look over your shoulder from the back seat...I am beyond pumped for this new adventure!!!

[CosmicRocker]

Wow! What a day in planetary exploration. Not only do we get an official announcement that many of our dreams of post-Vic exploration are about to come true, but we also learn that the exit route might take Opportunity past some parts of Victoria's rim that many have longed to see.

Could life get any better?

Then we hear from one of our favorite celebrities, an actual rover driver, who compliments the forum and all of its contributors for their ideas. Welcome, Paolo. We're happy to see you. It still is a bit surreal to me, but I'm comfortable with that. Wow! I can't wait to see what lies ahead...

[ustrax]

Are we there yet?...

Dear Paolo, a pleasure to read you at UMSF...it just enforces my feeling, reinforced through this last years, that this place is, step by step, gathering the perfect crew to have a mission of its own...

Regarding your request for suggestions about a possible path to Endeavour, here's mine, not based in the nature of the terrain and safe driving but more on the scientific hotspots Oppy could find along the way making the journey more attractive...also, the average driving and distances are just guesses, two positive aspects, I believe Steve Squyres mentioned that the rover would be heading SE (is this correct?), and this path follows that course, another aspect, it is within the two years time frame that SS made reference to.

[Tesheiner]

Welcome Paolo! It's a real pleasure to have you here at UMSF.

First of all let me take this opportunity (no pun) to say you and the whole MER Team thanks for this incredible and unforgettable experience. The whole mission of both rovers and the way in which it is/was made available for us to follow them since the beginning (and even *contribute*, wow!) is something that, IMO, has changed the perspective from which all of us could follow the exploration of the cosmos.

Second, and speaking of route planning, I haven't yet taken the time to look at the HiRISE pictures of the terrain ahead but in the first approach to plot a "hypotetical path" I will use the following guidelines:
- Drive E when moving on flat terrain
- Drive SE when moving by the dune fields. I'm here assuming these fields follow the general direction as the ones on the path from Erebus to Victoria.

[SFJCody]

Basically, head out north-northeast, go straight east along the flat ground north of the ripple fields, and then duck south when you're due north of the north rim of Endeavour. When the ground rises, you're there.

That's what appears to be the quickest route to me as well.

I'm uncertain about this approach. Seems like avoiding those ripples in the etched terrain would add a lot of extra km onto the journey, which would also be a big risk. I guess it comes down to which option presents the least threat to the rover's continued mobility.

[Stu]

I've found Endeavour on some THEMIS images...

http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/browse/I10685008

http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/browse/I15290007

... and just wondering, does the ground drop away into a kind of shallow basin at the top there?



Could that be the ghostly rim of an older crater, obliterated by the formation of Endeavour?

[SFJCody]

- Drive E when moving on flat terrain
- Drive SE when moving by the dune fields. I'm here assuming these fields follow the general direction as the ones on the path from Erebus to Victoria.

Agreed. So, for safety puposes I think the rover should drive CCW around Victoria keeping the same distance as it did when travelling CCW to get back to Duck Bay when the initial recon was over. Once on the eastern side drive due east across the annulus until the increasingly large ripples begin to become a hazard. From there SSE using a 'stair-step' approach; following the trend of the ripples and using gaps/areas where the ripples have lower crests to cut east.

Looking at this HiRISE image the ripples diminish in size in the SE corner of the frame, this looks like a good point to move east.

[Tesheiner]

Yeah, it's time for back-seat driving and here's yet another potential route.
It's not covering the whole way to Endeavour but only to a small Endurance-like crater mid-way between VC and Endeavour, named here "Mini-Endurance" by SFJCody. Instead of searching for a path from VC to ME I did the opposite; from Mini-Endurance to Victoria. The terrain around Mini-Endurance looks pretty easy and becomes more wavy closer to VC. I won't be afraid because, except for the part closer to VC after the annulus, the terrain is similar or smother than the one nearby Vicking and Voyager craters.


Here're some snapshots (HiRISE) of the waypoints and of Vicking/Voyager for comparision.
Mini-Endurance:
M -1: , M -2:
M -3: , M -4:

M -5: , M -6:

Vicking & Voyager:

Open this page and scroll down to the Vicking panorama to have a look to the kind of terrain we are talking about.

[RoverDriver]

Yeah, it's time for back-seat driving and here's yet another potential route.
It's not covering the whole way to Endeavour but only to a small Endurance-like crater mid-way between VC and Endeavour, named here "Mini-Endurance" by SFJCody. Instead of searching for a path from VC to ME I did the opposite; from Mini-Endurance to Victoria. The terrain around Mini-Endurance looks pretty easy and becomes more wavy closer to VC. I won't be afraid because, except for the part closer to VC after the annulus, the terrain is similar or smother than the one nearby Vicking and Voyager craters.

Good thinking. At this time it might be best if we concentrate on the area visible in this HiRISE image and then we will go from there. Correlating the new terrain with terrain we have driven on is exactly right. We (well, *I* do, unfortunately this is one of the the details I cannot talk about) have engineering telemetry and can determine how fast (meters per sol) we can drive. I was wondering if there was a way to automate terrain evaluation, I'm mostly worried about ripples. Maybe applying the FFT to patches of the greyscale image can tell us where the scary ripples are. Maybe some other texture filters?

I think that spending some time getting our tools ready to evaluate the new HiRISE images might be the best thing to do. It will help in the near term and it will make our life easier in the long run.

Paolo

[fredk]

OK, now think what would be the easiest and safest route to Endevour if you did not have to stop for science... How far from the rim would you keep the rover? Keep in mind that a couple of stops on the rim might be requested.

Welcome, Paulo. It's a thrill to have a real driver acknowledge us noisy back-seat drivers!

Given the ease we've had so far driving on the anulus, I'd think we're basically "science-dominated", ie anywhere the science team decides to visit around the rim of Victoria should be easy to reach. There are some larger dunes on the eastern rim to keep an eye on, especially if the science team wants to do imaging from the rim (eg the "linear features" that've been discussed). Of course the less we advance the odometer the better.

As for the route to Endeavour, my post and route sketch from over a year ago was based on the principle of "avoid dunes whenever possible", and the hirise image PSP_001414_1780, and the hope that the tarmac continues east (I haven't seen hirise images further east). The "tarmac" to the NE appears to have the smallest dunes, but I agree that Tesheiner's route above (or a similar route that heads more directly east at first) looks not too bad, at least barring a wheel failure. A big question I have is what happens to our dune traversibility if we loose a wheel? Perhaps in that case you'd rather be on the tarmac to the NE.

It might appear that a "tarmac" route as I sketched would be longer than a more direct route to the SE, but tarmac means essentially straight drive segments, while dunes probably mean zig-zagging east when you can cross dunes, then south between dune crests, so the total distance may be much larger than the "crow flies" distance.

Perhaps there's going to have to be a mathematical expression for the "favorability", F, of a route. Greater total odometry would reduce F. Fewer and smaller dunes increase F. Better science en route increases F, especially since our arrival at the final destination is far from guaranteed! I would not like to try guess the form the expression for F would take, or how much weight to give the engineering versus science goals!

I wish you the best of luck as you embark on your greatest road trip yet!

[Phil Stooke]

I accidentally posted this in the other thread so I'll put it here too:

"Due south from Victoria is very feasible. The drifts never get as big as to the north, and after a few km they give way to surfaces nearly as smooth as the area near Endurance, but with more flat outcrops - this from the HiRISE image extending furthest south and east. So, south until the drifts disappear, and then southeast via the Endurance-like crater to the isolated hill on Endeavour's rim is very realistic.

Phil"


Looking at the way-points, the big drifts at M6 are exactly what you want to avoid, if long-distance/sol driving is the goal. The SE path from the annulus to M6 is quite bad for driving. But head due south off the southern rim of Victoria, and the N-S oriented drifts allow driving in that direction quite easily, and soon get smaller. Then the path can meander through the smaller drifts and outcrop areas quite easily until the mini-Endurance crater is reached. There the surface looks easy to drive on.

Phil

[ustrax]

Dear Fredk, maybe I'm missing something here but isn't your path towards Endeavour pointing in the opposite direction, NE?
EDITED: Forget what I've written...just reread it and saw that heading NE was precisely your point...

Stu, about an older crater I don't know but I see three beautiful ones due South...maybe we should start our campaign right now to have things ready for when Oppy finishes her work at Endeavour...

Is any of these Miyamoto?...

EDITED: No it is not...

[BrianL]

But head due south off the southern rim of Victoria, and the N-S oriented drifts allow driving in that direction quite easily, and soon get smaller.

Sorry, Phil but I can't see it. Admittedly, I don't have the big JP2 files to look at* but from the smaller images, due south just looks like a route fraught with peril. The dunes seems very large, and oriented E-W so Oppy would have to cross them. Algorimancer had that area blocked off in his post from last year's discussion. Help me see what you're seeing, Phil.

* And if someone can give me a JP2 for Dummies lesson to help me view these pictures, it would be much appreciated.

[Tman]

In the HiRISE Online Image Viewer can you select an image to explore in full-resolution. They are labeled for faster find - btw. for PSP_001414_1780 what's the meaning of that "possible" - a typo?

[mhoward]

FWIW, I agree with Phil. When I looked at the MRO image in full resolution way back (this was months and months ago), my conclusion was to to head straight south from Victoria until the drifts diminish. I think you have to look at the full image in full resolution, and compare it to similar images of ground we've already covered, to reach any conclusions at all. Although the route south might not be easy at first, I didn't see an easier route anywhere to the east at the time. I could be wrong, of course.