Red Dragon |
Red Dragon |
Aug 7 2011, 09:46 AM
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#1
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1729 Joined: 3-August 06 From: 43° 35' 53" N 1° 26' 35" E Member No.: 1004 |
'Red Dragon' Mission Mulled as Cheap Search for Mars Life
any opinion on this? would it really make sense adapting a manned spaceship to unmanned Mars landing? I am skeptical... if replying, please remember forum guideline 1.5 |
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Aug 7 2011, 11:26 AM
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 593 Joined: 20-April 05 Member No.: 279 |
...and 1.2, and 1.3!
I think the best thing we can say is that more affordable delivery costs are a great thing, and - if Musk's vision is as good as his demonstrations to date - then I suspect he'd get nothing but thumbs-up from all of us here. Andy |
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Aug 7 2011, 12:16 PM
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 4-May 11 From: Pardubice, CZ Member No.: 5979 |
Since payload capacity of Red Dragon to Mars surface would be couple of tons I see this concept quite suitable for MSR mission.
It could IMHO merge at least two separate missions: Sample Caching Rover and Sample Return Lander. Don't you think? |
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Aug 7 2011, 03:37 PM
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#4
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3652 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
Since payload capacity of Red Dragon to Mars surface would be couple of tons I see this concept quite suitable for MSR mission. Payload mass (i.e. launch vehicle performance) to Mars will be just one factor in MSR. A much bigger cost will be the actual spacecraft, as is usually the case. I don't see Red Dragon helping here. If a large mass is needed there, just using Falcon Heavy with a dedicated spacecraft would make more sense (coincidentally, MSR with one spacecraft was something Elon Musk suggested would be enabled by the Falcon Heavy). This concept of using Dragon to land something on Mars is interesting but it does have drawbacks. A big chunk of the landed mass would be Dragon itself and its (for unmanned landers) unnecessary pressurized structure. It also remains to be seen if a Dragon could actually perform a successful EDL in the first place. -------------------- |
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Aug 8 2011, 12:07 AM
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#5
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1018 Joined: 29-November 05 From: Seattle, WA, USA Member No.: 590 |
Treating Dragon strictly as an unmanned vehicle, it's hard to see what it brings to the party. Unless they seriously thought they could easily adjust the design to let it land on Mars. But if it were that easy, would MSL being using the sky crane?
--Greg |
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Aug 8 2011, 12:48 AM
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#6
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Senior Member Group: Admin Posts: 4763 Joined: 15-March 05 From: Glendale, AZ Member No.: 197 |
My recollection from the earliest days of SpaceX has been that the Dragon has always been intended as a multi-use capsule for cargo, science payloads, and ultimately self-aware biological payloads. I'm not going to get into the myriad ways a constant like the Dragon can save costs, but in many ways it is like the common automobile chassis that many manufacturers have successful used on different vehicles over the years (especially trucks), or the standard motherboard and BUS arrangement of modern PCs that has allowed for an explosion of critical innovation around a reliable manufacturing platform. That the Dragon is being considered as a vessel for unmanned Mars missions should come as no surprise then, since the origins of Elon Musk's interest in space are rooted in a desire to explore Mars.
(Have I mentioned, that I really like this guy and what he's doing? ) -------------------- If Occam had heard my theory, things would be very different now.
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Aug 8 2011, 01:24 AM
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#7
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14448 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
A big chunk of the landed mass would be Dragon itself and its (for unmanned landers) unnecessary pressurized structure. The point being, when the LV can lift so much weight - then you can get away with 'wasted' mass. The thing we have the least of, is money. If a system like this gets instrumentation onto the ground at <$ than, say, 'traditional' spacecraft design and LV's.... then it's a win. |
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Aug 8 2011, 02:27 AM
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 6-April 06 From: Cape Canaveral Member No.: 734 |
Full inline quote removed - ADMIN
No, the capsule is still a fixed size and it is a pressurized structure meant to contain personnel and loose cargo. It is ill suited to contain a rover or instrument suite such as Phoenix. All previous landers jettisoned their heat shield to expose the spacecraft, Dragon can't do this and if it could, it would expose a sealed vessel. |
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Aug 8 2011, 03:20 AM
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#9
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Senior Member Group: Admin Posts: 4763 Joined: 15-March 05 From: Glendale, AZ Member No.: 197 |
The Viking landers and MSL wouldn't fit in it either so it must be a bad idea. Clearly Musk and all of his engineers have lost their minds. With that kind of thinking they'll never get any rocket off the ground.
-------------------- If Occam had heard my theory, things would be very different now.
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Aug 8 2011, 03:20 AM
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#10
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14448 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
No, the capsule is still a fixed size and it is a pressurized structure meant to contain personnel and loose cargo. It is ill suited to contain a rover or instrument suite such as Phoenix. All previous landers jettisoned their heat shield to expose the spacecraft, Dragon can't do this and if it could, it would expose a sealed vessel. You're thinking 'how would dragon deliver Phoenix'. That's not the goal here. It's a change in philosophy. The actual question is - what science could you do with a Dragon on the surface. One scientist, at least, clearly thinks there is plenty that can be done. I can see massive potential for Dragon as depicted in that video - and even more with comparatively simple modifications to the vehicle structure. |
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Aug 8 2011, 05:37 PM
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 6-April 06 From: Cape Canaveral Member No.: 734 |
You're thinking 'how would dragon deliver Phoenix'. No, I was thinking how Dragon could deliver Phoenix's instruments. Scientists will compromise everything for a free ride. There are no simple mods to the structure. Look at the recovered Dragon, the only place for instruments is in the interior. They would have extend through the two hatches. Any other mods and it is not a Dragon anymore. |
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Aug 8 2011, 05:55 PM
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#12
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14448 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
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Aug 8 2011, 08:16 PM
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 6-April 06 From: Cape Canaveral Member No.: 734 |
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Aug 8 2011, 08:35 PM
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#14
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14448 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
Huh? So the "right mind set" is not to deliver instruments and just land a Dragon capsule. Very very obviously, that is NOT the point I was making. You really are very very determined to start an argument rather than have a discussion, aren't you. QUOTE Ok, I will go back to lurking Please do. |
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Aug 8 2011, 11:44 PM
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 27-September 10 Member No.: 5458 |
Just out of curiosity, are there any obvious applications of the Dragon module? I can envision some instruments getting deployed through the hatch in some manner. I'm having trouble thinking of any other method of delivering instruments with the craft without serious modification though. Also, very large parachutes will be necessary to slow the craft; is there anything in the works for a booster module to help slow during decent? I really like this idea and I think it shows, if not just for good PR from the science community, an actual interest from SpaceX in delivering more than just people to space.
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