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GIGANTIC Aviation Week story, Pentagon has been flying 2-stage orbital spaceplane throughout 1990s&#
Guest_BruceMoomaw_*
post Mar 6 2006, 02:24 AM
Post #1





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It may even have been manned:
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/chan...ws/030606p1.xml

My God, what a story -- if it's even partially true. And, judging from this article, they are absolutely certain they have proof (along with proof that the thing, although it works, has recently been mothballed as not
cost-effective).

It's important to keep in mind, though, that this thing is NOT a workable prototype of the originally planned 2-stage winged Space Shuttle. The second stage -- the spaceplane that actually achieved orbit -- was relatively small and probably very inefficient as a cargo carrier; its advantage lay in allowing the US to get a military reconaissance (or weapons) satellite into orbit surreptitiously, with no advance warning of the launch going to other countries. Even at that, as I say, AW reports that the thing has been recently canned as not worth its (doubtless huge) black-budget expense.
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Guest_BruceMoomaw_*
post Apr 21 2006, 01:20 PM
Post #2





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Four more Aviation Week letters on the BlackStar story:

(1) James R. French (Las Cruces, NM), March 27: "Fascinating as it may sound, the BlackStar article does not meet the test of credibility.

"Based upon some quick analysis by my colleague Chuck Deiterich, a vehicle launching due east (to take advantage of the Earth's rotation) at Mach 3.3 would still require a delta velocity of about 21,700 ft/sec. to reach orbit. This doesn't account for drag losses, which even at that altitude probably would be 200 ft./sec.

"The best performance I have seen for a boron fuel, even with highly toxic liquid fluorine as an oxidizer, is a specific impulse of 409-412 sec. using a 95% burn efficiency. This will require a start-of-burn/end-of-burn mass ratio of around 5:2 -- not difficult for a disposable stage, but challenging for a manned vehicle with crew and payload, which must bear the weight of an entry thermal protection system, landing gear, etc. Using more probable oxidizers, the ratio quickly becomes impractical.

"The description of the vehicle goes on at length about apparent inlets on the belly. This is entirely at odds with the discussion of the linear aerospike rocket engine. The only air-breather that might be useful in this flight regime is the scramjet, which, while it does use an external expansion nozzle, does not use a linear aerospike of the type depicted. (Incidentally, the illustrations show a lack of comprehension about how a linear aerospike works.) Also, it seems unlikely that a scramjet would work with a slurry fuel as described, since the solid particles will be slow to mix and burn while rapidity is crucial to a scramjet.

"Finally, the B-70 launch of a '40,000-lb. stage' carrying a '10,000-lb. Dynasoar' surfaces again. Using the delta-V values quoted above, this combination is incapable of reaching orbit. Even if we use the specific impulse of the Space Shuttle Main Engine and assign an improbable 0.9 propellant mass fraction to the stage, it falls about 3000 ft./sec. short.

"One wonders how these ideas persist, without anyone ever really checking the numbers. I could go on at great length about other improbabilities, but this is enough. I really hope I'm wrong and that some super-duper vehicle does reside out there in the black world. I don't think I'll hold my breath, however."

(2) Mike Tinirello (Palmdale, CA), March 27: "The 'XOV' vehicle described in your article looks very close to a very fast aircraft that I observed in the summer of 1999 at Edwards AFB, California.

"I was taking out the trash and was drawn to look overhead (due to a sonic boom from an F-16). Two aircraft were flying due east in relatively close formation down the National Aerospace Corridor. One of the aircraft looked like a smaller version of the space shuttle, but was still larger than the F-16 chase plane. At one point, the space shuttle-type aircraft rapidly accelerated and disappeared off the horizon, leaving the much slower F-16 in its wake.

"Then the mystery craft silently returned, leaving a wake of smoke rings as it slowed down. You could see two nacelles in back, flickering as the puffs of smoke exited the vehicle. I did not observe a 'mother ship SR-3' nearby. Nor did I observe the space shuttle-type craft land at Edwards. I hve always believed this craft may have been the Aurora spyplane or some other secret craft. Perhaps it was the XOV. I also believe it was moving much faster than Mach 3."

(3) A. Leroy Clarke (Santa Fe, NM), April 10: "As a former wind tunnel engineer, the possibility of an 'XB-70 like spaceplane carrier' was of interest.

"The artist's sketch of the mated version certainly would illustrate a challenge for the landing gear group. The spaceplane likely would have to be much smaller or flatter than was pictured to have any hope of being strut-mounted to a large mothership needing to take off from a runway with conventional landing gear.

"The spaceplane could have been partially submerged into the fuselage in place of the bomb bay, similar to the X-planes in B-29s. B-70 bays were large enough to enclose the 1950s generation of nuclear stores, which were big and heavy. Better yet, the spaceplane could have been piggybacked on the aft fuselage, ahead of the vertical tails. Moving the XB-70's vertical tails outboard, as shown, would ease a launch from topside. This idea was studied in the late 1950s. I conducted wind tunnel tests with the B-70 for a spaceplane launch at altitude."

(4) Allan R. Swegle (Seattle), April 10: "Regarding the experimental orbital vehicle, I was a structures technology engineer on studies in the 1970s and 1980s about developing a reusable orbital vehicle system with vehicles of varying payloads. Our team studied vehicles and orbiters that were launched from subsonic and supersonic carriers at various altitudes.

"A common feature of proposals for orbiters has been systems that require lightweight thermal protection systems (TPS) over aluminum (such as the Shuttle Orbiters), or composite structural materials systems that must be protected to 300 deg F or less.

"To save weight, these systems must have limited wing area and hence develop high temperatures during reentry due to high wing loadings. Some concepts have developed higher boost-phase temperatures than for reentry. The materials for thermal protection on leading edges and surfaces needs expensive and time-consuming maintenance. Added weight, slow turnaround, weather sensitivity, increased risk and cost are products of these TPS concepts."
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Posts in this topic
- BruceMoomaw   GIGANTIC Aviation Week story   Mar 6 2006, 02:24 AM
- - tasp   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 5 2006, 08:24 PM...   Mar 6 2006, 02:56 AM
- - mcaplinger   Interesting, but I don't think AW&ST's...   Mar 6 2006, 02:58 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Whatever happened to the "donuts on a rope...   Mar 6 2006, 03:44 AM
- - deglr6328   Completely fascinating. Virtually all the details...   Mar 6 2006, 06:30 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   Jeffrey Bell is really worried about the threat fr...   Mar 6 2006, 11:44 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Jeffrey Bell, that eternal party-pooper, caught no...   Mar 6 2006, 07:54 AM
|- - paxdan   The set up described reminds me of the Tagboard pr...   Mar 6 2006, 11:37 AM
|- - tty   Actually this is a rather typical Jeff Bell effort...   Mar 6 2006, 07:56 PM
- - Myran   Thats very insightful deglr6328, and without enoug...   Mar 6 2006, 11:36 AM
- - edstrick   ET Phone Area-51? Actually, I've recently rea...   Mar 6 2006, 12:00 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Here are grabs from the AW&ST website: http:/...   Mar 6 2006, 01:25 PM
- - Ames   Where does the undercarriage go? doesn't ...   Mar 6 2006, 02:16 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (tty @ Mar 6 2006, 07:56 PM) Fortun...   Mar 6 2006, 10:53 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Footnote: the Titan 2 second stage weighed 29,000 ...   Mar 6 2006, 11:15 PM
|- - tasp   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 6 2006, 05:15 PM...   Mar 7 2006, 02:59 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (tasp @ Mar 7 2006, 02:59 AM) We ca...   Mar 7 2006, 10:23 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   One *possible* vehicle which may form part of a so...   Mar 7 2006, 04:36 PM
- - tty   Well, I’ve been doing some more figuring and I mus...   Mar 7 2006, 08:43 PM
- - dvandorn   Just a little gedankenexperiment, here -- anyone c...   Mar 7 2006, 09:48 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 7 2006, 09:48 PM) J...   Mar 7 2006, 09:57 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 7 2006, 09:48 PM) J...   Mar 7 2006, 10:08 PM
|- - JTN   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 7 2006, 10:08 PM) C...   Mar 7 2006, 10:44 PM
- - dvandorn   Good point, Alex -- NRO probably would run such an...   Mar 7 2006, 10:02 PM
- - dvandorn   I'm not trying to imply conspiracies -- though...   Mar 7 2006, 10:32 PM
- - dvandorn   I have to admit, when I saw the Blackstar story, t...   Mar 7 2006, 10:57 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   According to the article, not even the nation...   Mar 8 2006, 01:26 AM
- - GregM   So let’s see here. To start with we have the Valky...   Mar 8 2006, 04:02 AM
- - tty   Also remember that there is a school of thought th...   Mar 8 2006, 07:24 AM
|- - paxdan   Lots of info about the XB-70 What an aircraft...   Mar 8 2006, 09:58 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   Jim Oberg on MSNBC.Com Space News summed up the Bo...   Mar 8 2006, 11:09 AM
|- - Steve G   QUOTE (paxdan @ Mar 8 2006, 02:58 AM) Lot...   Mar 17 2006, 02:56 AM
|- - GregM   QUOTE (Steve G @ Mar 17 2006, 02:56 AM) I...   Mar 17 2006, 03:45 AM
|- - dvandorn   In re the Avro Arrow: QUOTE (GregM @ Mar 16 ...   Mar 18 2006, 03:19 PM
|- - Steve G   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 18 2006, 08:19 AM) ...   Mar 18 2006, 09:03 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   It should be remembered that there is still -- to ...   Mar 8 2006, 11:04 AM
|- - paxdan   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 8 2006, 11:04 AM...   Mar 8 2006, 11:11 AM
|- - tty   [quote name='BruceMoomaw' date='Mar 8 ...   Mar 8 2006, 11:18 PM
|- - gndonald   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 8 2006, 07:04 PM...   Mar 17 2006, 04:14 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (gndonald @ Mar 17 2006, 04:14 PM) ...   Mar 17 2006, 08:40 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 17 2006, 03:40 PM) ...   Mar 17 2006, 09:38 PM
- - edstrick   I believe "AirCraftFilms", the companion...   Mar 8 2006, 12:41 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 8 2006, 11:09 AM) J...   Mar 8 2006, 01:27 PM
|- - ljk4-1   I found this post from the FPSPACE list very inter...   Mar 8 2006, 02:49 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 8 2006, 01:27 PM...   Mar 8 2006, 04:48 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 8 2006, 04:48 ...   Mar 9 2006, 12:39 AM
|- - ljk4-1   It is a known fact that the CIA and USSR "sup...   Mar 9 2006, 03:56 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 9 2006, 12:39 AM...   Mar 9 2006, 04:55 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Okay, but a magazine which (according to you) is c...   Mar 9 2006, 09:17 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 9 2006, 09:17 PM...   Mar 9 2006, 09:32 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 9 2006, 09:32 ...   Mar 10 2006, 05:24 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   From Wikipedia: "One notable variant of the ...   Mar 10 2006, 09:46 AM
|- - ljk4-1   Blackstar: False Messiah From Groom Lake http://w...   Mar 10 2006, 12:16 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Bell, having now read the two other Aviation Week ...   Mar 11 2006, 11:31 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   Is it a bad sign when Jeffrey Bell starts agreeing...   Mar 11 2006, 11:37 AM
|- - gpurcell   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 11 2006, 11:37 AM) ...   Mar 12 2006, 02:23 AM
- - tty   Here it is Jeff Bell who is off speculating in the...   Mar 12 2006, 04:45 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (tty @ Mar 12 2006, 04:45 PM) If yo...   Mar 12 2006, 09:17 PM
- - ljk4-1   Six blind men in a zoo: Aviation Week's mythic...   Mar 13 2006, 05:13 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Mar 13 2006, 05:13 P...   Mar 13 2006, 05:25 PM
|- - helvick   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 13 2006, 05:25...   Mar 13 2006, 06:04 PM
- - gpurcell   Ouch, that's GOTTA hurt.   Mar 13 2006, 07:01 PM
- - tty   Just one small point. That nuclear-powered soviet ...   Mar 13 2006, 07:05 PM
- - ljk4-1   This Web page has excerpts from the 1958 AW&ST...   Mar 13 2006, 07:29 PM
- - Myran   Two US built nuclear jet engines at Idaho National...   Mar 13 2006, 09:53 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Having finally read all of Dwayne Day's story,...   Mar 18 2006, 03:51 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 18 2006, 03:51 A...   Mar 18 2006, 01:36 PM
|- - gpurcell   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 18 2006, 01:36 PM) ...   Mar 18 2006, 01:58 PM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (gpurcell @ Mar 18 2006, 01:58 PM) ...   Mar 19 2006, 01:16 AM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 19 2006, 01:16 A...   Mar 20 2006, 05:13 PM
- - ljk4-1   http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/ne...60406...   Apr 12 2006, 06:23 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Four more Aviation Week letters on the BlackStar s...   Apr 21 2006, 01:20 PM
- - tty   Piggybacking on a B-70 would not be a good idea ae...   Apr 21 2006, 05:07 PM
- - ljk4-1   Black projects don't seem to be having any bud...   May 23 2006, 07:09 PM
- - climber   I heard this week on the radio that the whole USA ...   May 23 2006, 07:34 PM
- - ljk4-1   Looks like they had a plan similar to the one from...   May 23 2006, 08:15 PM


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