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Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 31 2008, 04:55 PM

Since there will be a press briefing today at 11 am PDT / 1800 UT it seems like a good time to start a fresh Phoenix thread. Phoenix hasn't gotten that icy sample yet but they do seem to have overcome their concerns about using TEGA so it looks likely we'll see a lot more sample acquisitions and deliveries in the coming weeks.

Press briefing will be on NASA TV: http://www.nasa.gov/ntv on both public and media channels. Here's that higher-bitrate stream on Yahoo: http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/nasa/index.html

--Emily

Posted by: JRehling Jul 31 2008, 05:48 PM

To take the question of the rate of circulation -- the water "cycle" on Mars (if indeed a cycle it be), and tie it to the ice sample -- the D:H ratio of the sample could give us a lot of evidence. If this topmost layer of ice has a different D:H than the atmosphere, then it's been here for a long time. Not to make too much of one tiny measurement, but it really is a huge issue:

-- Maybe there is a cycle, but only where the ice is even closer to the surface than it is at the Phoenix site.

-- Maybe there is a cycle, but the summertime ice level is some tiny epsilon below the winter ice level, and it's that seasonal epsilon that cycles. If so, a summer measurement of the very topmost ice might show a difference from atmospheric D:H that belies the truth. (With CO2 overlying the H2O in winter, the seasons become very complex with regard to the surface of that H2O layer.)

-- Given any possible cycle, the question of how much and how often becomes a "verbose" one.

Am I getting too excited over this... because I could see follow-up missions to measure the D:H at a variety of depths and latitudes. It's eminently doable. Is it making too much over too little? It seems to me that the whole martian water cycle is what would be characterized in that way. Moreover, you could play "Twenty Questions" cleverly and end the game by finding negative evidence in the most favorable spot. (Exposed polar H2O ice right before or right after the CO2 covers it.)

Can D:H be determined in water ice with any reliability spectroscopically from orbit? That could be the magic measurement. Maybe the data is already in hand?!

Posted by: djellison Jul 31 2008, 06:17 PM

They got the OK for an extension to Sol 124!

Doug

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 31 2008, 06:18 PM

Did you catch the calendar date on that? I missed it.

--Emily

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 31 2008, 06:20 PM

Bill Boynton says: TEGA got ice!!!

--Emily

Posted by: jamescanvin Jul 31 2008, 06:20 PM

Ice sample! Wow!

Posted by: SickNick Jul 31 2008, 06:22 PM

John,

look at the speed with which the "Snow Queen" feature has sublimed, once it was exposed. We're looking at a moderately to highly dynamic system here. Of course things are slower when they are buried by a few cm of insulating dirt, but over timescales of a few thousand years, these ice deposits are VERY active. let alone millions of years. D:H ratios don't change very fast...

Posted by: TheChemist Jul 31 2008, 06:25 PM

The hat was hilarious ! :-)

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 31 2008, 06:30 PM

Posted by: jamescanvin Jul 31 2008, 06:30 PM

How did we miss that lidar image?!

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 31 2008, 06:38 PM

Who was that young lady? She has a great public persona. She makes a fantastic spokesperson, they should send her on tour when this is all over.

Posted by: fredk Jul 31 2008, 06:38 PM

Did anyone catch where the tega sample that had some ice (a few percent or less, Boynton said) was collected? Was it a new soil sample or old rasp shavings?

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 31 2008, 06:48 PM

Here's a link to the graphics for today's press conference.
http://jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php

EDIT: Boynton said the sample was "a quick scraping of the soil above the ice layer" so I assume that means Wicked Witch came from the Snow White trench, a newly scraped sample.

--Emily

Posted by: Stu Jul 31 2008, 07:00 PM

Hmmm... Craig Covault was very cryptic there wasn't he? Almost like he was suggesting he knew they'd found Something Interesting but weren't telling... Conspiracy theorists are going to LOVE that...

Posted by: djellison Jul 31 2008, 07:19 PM

I know - it's quite obvious now, looking at the Raw's

http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS061EFF901589658_16AA3RBM1.jpg

Posted by: nprev Jul 31 2008, 07:22 PM

(Sigh...) And here I was playing elsewhere & completely forgot about this. (Worked all last night, just got home an hour or two ago). Any other juicy tidbits?

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 31 2008, 07:26 PM

I heard "end of the year."

So maybe the message to families of Phoenix team members is "I'll be home for Christmas."

That's right around the equinox, with the sun barely getting above 20 degrees elevation, max.

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 31 2008, 07:33 PM

Totally agree--delightful presentation.

Posted by: centsworth_II Jul 31 2008, 07:33 PM

I heard end of fiscal year which would be September 30. Not much of an extension. It must take more paperwork to extend into a new fiscal year.

Posted by: fredk Jul 31 2008, 07:34 PM

The last question was one of the best: Boynton answered that they don't have enough water in the tega sample to get the isotope ratios, unfortunately. They'll need a higher proportion of ice to soil to do that.

But this does put the last nail in the coffin of any attempts to attribute the Dodo/Goldilocks observations to anything but water ice.

Posted by: djellison Jul 31 2008, 07:38 PM

Yeah - it's end of fiscal year, Sol 124. For approx $2m. That puts it almost bang on an order of magnitude better value per sol.

Doug

Posted by: nprev Jul 31 2008, 07:42 PM

That, and an approved budget, which never happens on time. I'm certain that they're pressing for supplementary funding to be included in the inevitable continuing resolution until the budget gets passed. Normally, it shouldn't be a problem.

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 31 2008, 08:09 PM

On the TEGA front, after the second ice-rich sample stuck to the scoop ("the last thing we were expecting") they decided to go for a dry sample & were delighted to find out that, surprise, there was indeed some ice in the sample anyway. "Champagne corks were popping all around"--I assume metaphorical, but who knows what the work environment is there. The amount of ice is small (~1%) but it almost definitely is ice because they saw it melting at 0 degrees. They also saw the H2O signature in the mass spec. So this goes beyond the first dry(ish) sample where they saw trace quantities of water, but only coming off the minerals at high temps. Boynton didn't say whether they would get isotope ratios from the data. I note that yesterday Boynton wasn't slated to be on the panel--maybe an indication of late-breaking developments--i.e., some good TEGA news.

There was a lot of presentation about the meteorological results. The animation showing the LIDAR beam at midnight looked like it showed wispy clouds or something drifting by--not sure.

There was a little bit of the feeling of listening to Pravda--one would think this is the most successful mission ever. More like--yippee, the IRS has granted an extension on our filing date! Never was heard a discouraging word. When one reporter mentioned the troubles TEGA has had in collecting an ice sample, Boynton got a little testy, saying that since they just got one, what's the problem?

Posted by: jmjawors Jul 31 2008, 08:27 PM

More tidbits (in no particular order):

• Mark Lemmon (who I think was called "Mike" ) mentioned the completion of the 'Mission Success Pan,' as well as the beginning of a higher resolution pan called 'Happily Ever After.' An example of some of the intriguing surface details the SSI has photographed are the surprisingly un-wind-sculpted rocks all over the landing site.
• The atomic force microscope will be used "soon."
• The second WCL sample was remarkably similar to the first one. Perhaps this has something to do with their proximity to Heimdall?
• One of the remaining TEGA ovens will be reserved as a "blank" (maybe this was already well-known, but it's a detail I'd forgotten). In the meantime, the next sample will be another "dry" sample as the sticky ice problem is worked.
• The TEGA short circuit is now gone. I still don't understand this... is it one short? Two shorts? What happened to restore their faith that the remaining six ovens are safe to use? I wish they'd clear that up better. But... the important thing is that it's working!
• (I think the truth is closer to http://wewatchmovies.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/short_circuit.jpg.... )
• Lessee... There was a nice weather presentation that is summed up in http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php?fileID=15339.
• Two new trenches will be dug, called "Cupboard" and "Neverland." [http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php?fileID=15391]

Hopefully the briefing was recorded and will appear on http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/ soon.

Posted by: centsworth_II Jul 31 2008, 08:48 PM

As already noted by fredk, in responce to the last question of the day, he said there was not enough ice in the sample to get isotope data. They still need an ice rich sample for that. I was waiting for that question and glad it just got in under the wire, but disappointed by the answer. Still, it's something to look forward to.

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 31 2008, 09:00 PM

I always have a hard time finding the links to the animations for these press conferences. Here it is:
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/videos_sol66.php

There were some neat ones today.

--Emily

Posted by: jmjawors Jul 31 2008, 09:04 PM

http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4207&Itemid=2

Posted by: mars loon Jul 31 2008, 09:10 PM

I wondered the same thing. and that link really clarifies everything !

Posted by: fredk Jul 31 2008, 10:46 PM

What amazes me about this (apart from the fact no one here spotted the beam first!) is that the beam is visible in broad daylight! (Those images were mid-afternoon.) I would've thought maybe at night...

Edit: the images were near 3am, but of course the sun is up all night now.

Light does not backscatter well from air, and Martian air is extremely thin, so we must be seeing backscattering from the dust. Martian air tends to be much dustier than earth's, and I doubt the beam would be visible in normal daylight conditions on earth.

This reminds me - anyone recall hearing a tau measurement for Phoenix?

edit - not only did no one notice the images, but apparently we all missed http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/060.html

Posted by: slinted Aug 2 2008, 09:23 PM

Sol 67 image of the new 'Cupboard' trench, next to Dodo-Goldilocks:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_17400.jpg

Posted by: djellison Aug 2 2008, 09:38 PM

Actually

SSI Image of LIDAR beam..


10 commanded, but 0 received. The ones we've now seen were from a different sol

Doug

Posted by: fredk Aug 2 2008, 11:04 PM

The caption I quoted from the sol 60 page has ActID 16AA. You can find those 16AA pics (all ten) on http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/061.html

My guess is that that sequence was planned together with the main sol 60 images, so is described on the sol 60 page, but the images are shown on the sol 61 page, since, well, they were taken on sol 61! But of course there's a certain member out there who can verify this...

I haven't seen the lidar beam in any of the other green filter lidar-search frames returned so far, which is interesting actually. Could it be we saw the beam in the first succesful sequence because dust levels were unusually high?

Posted by: Deimos Aug 3 2008, 05:05 AM

The sol 60 16AA and sol 61 16AA are indeed the same. There are a few unfortunate issues with the archiving, that are just not a high priority for fixing. One is that the plans are reported per planning sol, typically 0500 to 0500 LMST or thereabouts, while the data are reported by true sol (0000 - 2400 LTST). Another is that multiple plans can confuse things (a runout looks like ghost activities on sol 67 and others). And occasionally something really messes up the counts (like the joint sol 40/41 plan). None of these are unsolvable, they are just a pain for now.

There was early discussion of having tau on the weather graphic--but saying tau was 0.4 or 0.9 or whatever early on, or that it had settled to 0.3 or 035 lately ... that just wouldn't mean much to most people.

Posted by: Astro0 Aug 4 2008, 06:35 AM

"That's some nice trenchin' you dun there Billy bob. Yep, sure is some nice trenchin'".

Posted by: Stu Aug 4 2008, 07:12 AM

Some http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/busy-busy-phoenixon my gallery page...

Posted by: Oersted Aug 4 2008, 09:01 AM

Aesthetically, "Neverland" is surely the prettiest trench so far. The one to show in textbooks about Phoenix...

Posted by: Stu Aug 4 2008, 11:03 AM

"Snow White" might not be very pretty (what an ungallant thing to say! ) but she looks great in the http://phoenixpics.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/sw-new68.jpg...

Posted by: James Sorenson Aug 4 2008, 08:42 PM

On the Phoenix website, the max temperature for Sol-61 said it reached 32 degrees F . This has got to be some sort of a mistake.

Posted by: climber Aug 4 2008, 08:52 PM

At least, this is consitent with ° C


Edit : the web site has been corrected with correct T°

Posted by: Stu Aug 5 2008, 02:31 PM

http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/05/mars-up-close-and-personalon my gallery site if anyone would like a look... wonderful depth to these ones...

Posted by: HughFromAlice Aug 5 2008, 08:56 PM

Yes I did have a look Stu, and they're good. Now if I could only strain just a little bit more and peek around those rocks............

Posted by: Stu Aug 7 2008, 02:30 PM

http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/new-sol-70-imagesgenerated from sol 70 images...

"Neverland" is coming on nicely, too...

Posted by: fredk Aug 7 2008, 06:34 PM

I don't think anyone's mentioned that more of the bright ice has been uncovered in the http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS071EFF902525335_180D0R2M1.jpg

I hope we get to see the whole workspace cleared of topsoil eventually!

Posted by: nprev Aug 8 2008, 01:08 AM

Beauty stuff, Stu!

I'm still fascinated by the cohesiveness of the soil here. Everywhere else we've dug on Mars by whatever means leaves loose, crumbly sides.

Posted by: Stu Aug 8 2008, 06:43 AM

Phoenix seems to be making perchlorate castles and messing about like a kid on a beach...!

Posted by: Astro0 Aug 8 2008, 07:06 AM

Kid digging on a beach?!
How about writing in the snow!
Is it just me or did the PHX team use the rasp to very cleverly write ' ICE! ' in the Snow White trench.

EDIT: I didn't think that anyone would take either Stu or I as being serious about this .
Just for fun folks. Maybe we'll move it to the 'It's Just Humour!' thread.

Posted by: Stu Aug 8 2008, 07:41 AM

What?!?! Surely not... surely a highly professional, dedicated team of cutting edge planetary scientists, in charge of a mega-million dollar mission, with the eyes of the world watching them 24 and a bit hours a sol wouldn't do that? Why, that would be...

BERILLIANT!!! If that's not just a strange trick of shadow and light then what an absolutely glorious, childish, we-did-it-just-because-we-can-he-he thing to do! Love it!

Colourised version http://phoenixpics.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/ice-written2.jpg...

Posted by: remcook Aug 8 2008, 08:16 AM

I doubt that was on purpose, but pretty funny nevertheless

Posted by: Stu Aug 8 2008, 08:20 AM

Yeah, you're right... they "accidentally" spelled out the word "ICE" and put an exclamation mark on the end... I can see how that might happen...

Posted by: centsworth_II Aug 8 2008, 08:24 AM

In this crop of an image posted by CosmicRocker, it looks like a straightforward four by four rasp pattern. So, no frivolity. (Not by humans at least.) Any "ICE!" inscription was created by the scoop scraping over the rasp holes.

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=5249&view=findpost&p=121753

Posted by: djellison Aug 8 2008, 08:55 AM

It's just a 4 x 4 - sorry Stu - if they meant to write Ice - they'd have done a better job of it.

Doug

Posted by: fredk Aug 8 2008, 03:37 PM

Actually, it was one 4x4 rasp hole grid followed by another 4x4 rasp hole grid, beautifully interleaved between the first. Compare the image in centsworth's post just above with the image linked to http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=5249&view=findpost&p=121684

Just for the record, I don't think they tried to spell anything...

Posted by: MarsIsImportant Aug 8 2008, 03:46 PM

It all seems to be a cosmic joke to me!

Posted by: Juramike Aug 8 2008, 04:21 PM

Maybe the trench isn't big enough to spell "Perchlorate?"?

Posted by: centsworth_II Aug 8 2008, 04:35 PM

So, the Phoenix team is communicating with us via rasp drill hole patterns?
We must all have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Beautiful_Mind_(film)

Posted by: Stu Aug 8 2008, 04:52 PM

You practical guys just love bursting the bubbles of us hopeless romantics, dontcha...

Oh well, it was a nice thought while it lasted. And hey, it might've given them some creative "Take Hart" ideas...

Posted by: Greg Hullender Aug 8 2008, 05:43 PM

The time to worry, Stu, is when you start seeing high-speed turtles. ;-)

--Greg

Posted by: Reckless Aug 8 2008, 10:56 PM

microscope photo, strange thing on the right obviously not air-bag material although a little like the bunny we chased htat came from the MER airbags

Posted by: peter59 Aug 9 2008, 06:54 AM

"Snow Queen" - process of disintegration speeds up.

Sol 73

Posted by: Stu Aug 9 2008, 06:57 AM

Yes, it's certainly breaking up...

Frame 1: Sol 44
Frame 2: Sol 73

Posted by: Hungry4info Aug 9 2008, 06:31 PM

O_o if the ice is breaking up like that, what are the odds of scooping some of it up?

Ice cream, straight of the freezer, is hard to scoop up, but leave it out a while and it gets warmer and easier to carve into.
(perhaps not the best of analogies, lolol, I don't even like ice cream).

Is it's position under the lander going to make acquiring it difficult/impossible? Or would you not want to anyway for reasons of contamination when Phoenix landed?

Posted by: djellison Aug 9 2008, 06:55 PM

Yes.

Posted by: peter59 Aug 9 2008, 08:13 PM

I hope that Happy Pan will be significantly better than Peter Pan.

At last we have perfectly focused image of the horizon.
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_19444.jpg
Let's compare with out of focus image (Peter Pan).
http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS028EFF898712287_11E1ER1M1.jpg

Posted by: ugordan Aug 9 2008, 08:16 PM

That's not a focus issue, rather a raw contrast stretch issue.

Posted by: akuo Aug 9 2008, 08:19 PM

It is a focus issue, different filters have different focus . The SSI is probably optimised for the blue filter's focus, as are pancams on MERs.

Posted by: ugordan Aug 9 2008, 08:32 PM

The diopters are optimized for near field studies (i.e. on the s/c deck), most others have good focus at distances such as this. It looks more to me like different filters and illumination angles than anything else.

Posted by: akuo Aug 9 2008, 08:38 PM

Could be higher wavelett compression too, resulting in a softer image. The second image is clearly softer though, regardless of any illumination issues.

Posted by: Deimos Aug 9 2008, 08:39 PM

SSI focus is optimized for 3 to 3.5 m distance, since the main role for SSI is support of digging ops, and it has no role in picking where to drive next. It is still good at the horizon, but not ideal. Sampling is best in the red stereo filters. As with Pancam, the blue filters look sharper, but that is due to aliasing. Super sharp is good for pretty pictures; good sampling is important for good stereo models even if it looks slightly less sharp.

And the new pan better end up higher quality--it costs 10x as much.

Posted by: ugordan Aug 9 2008, 08:42 PM

What are the estimates of date of it being completely on the ground?

Posted by: elakdawalla Aug 9 2008, 10:15 PM

Translation: "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

--Emily

Posted by: Phil Stooke Aug 10 2008, 01:47 AM

Some new extensions to Cupboard now. They've messed up poor old Dodo-Goldilocks a bit.

Phil

Posted by: Deimos Aug 10 2008, 05:58 AM

The new pan was sized to take to Nov 15, with various assumptions about available passes and competing priorities. That didn't include retakes of unrecoverable missing data, but there's a lot of slop in the estimate.

Posted by: Stu Aug 10 2008, 11:26 AM

Couple of http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/new-hills-on-marsin my Phoenixpics gallery now, if anyone wants a look... Those dirt dumps really are starting to look like moden art now...

Posted by: Stu Aug 11 2008, 11:18 AM

Really nice (I think!) view of the scoop actually... well... scooping...

http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/down-in-the-dirt

Posted by: Phil Stooke Aug 12 2008, 12:17 PM

The Cupboard trench is getting bigger:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_20646.jpg


Phil

Posted by: Stu Aug 13 2008, 03:08 PM

I've just hung some new pictures up on the Gallery walls, if anyone wants to have a lazy, relaxing wander around, maybe to rest their brains after all the stunning Enceladus pics...!

http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/sol-76-festival-of-trenching

http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/serene-scene

Posted by: elakdawalla Aug 13 2008, 11:24 PM

Phew! Lengthy update posted here
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001603/

There are lots and lots of new names to cope with, so here is the map I posted with that update. I also edited the topic title to reflect the activity of the sols since 65.

--Emily

Posted by: Hungry4info Aug 13 2008, 11:49 PM

With all of these new trenches, what are the odds of Phoenix accidentally snagging up a root?

I'm guessing ... pretty low?

Posted by: nprev Aug 14 2008, 01:11 AM

Great update, Emily, thanks! (Yeah, that was pretty huge...have a Mars Bar!)

Posted by: Aussie Aug 14 2008, 07:24 AM

While I can work out the impulse behind most of the names used by the team, I am stumped by 'Burn Alive' and also I guess by 'Rosy Red'.
Any idea what is the driver behind these designations?

Posted by: djellison Aug 14 2008, 07:32 AM

A Witch will burn if you throw water on her ( hence Burn Alive ) - not sure on Rosy Red

Posted by: 1101001 Aug 14 2008, 07:37 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow-White_and_Rose-Red

Posted by: Aussie Aug 14 2008, 08:18 AM

OK got Rosy Red - but didn't water melt the wicked witch? Haven't heard the water burning witches story but the Monty Python Holy Grail does now ring a bell: A witch! Burn her! Burn her! Curiosity satisfied I can sleep tonight.

Posted by: centsworth_II Aug 14 2008, 01:40 PM

In the fairy tale, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansel_and_Gretel, the witch is trapped in the oven she used for cooking children, and burned alive.

Posted by: SteveM Aug 14 2008, 02:30 PM

Might Burn Alive have provided some soil for the ovens of the Thermal and Evolved Gas Analyzer?

Steve M

Posted by: Ant103 Aug 14 2008, 02:31 PM

The new trenches around Dodo and Goldilocks. This began to be like the terrain in the North of France during the First World War
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/dodogoldstone-sol76.jpg

And a color anaglpyh of a nice view of the horizon with Heimdall hills :
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/ss076eff902966063_165c0-anaglyph.png

Posted by: Deimos Aug 14 2008, 04:18 PM

See the near fate of Snow White and Rosy Red in http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/ptn/ptn18.htm

Rosy Red is currently in/on TEGA, WCL, and OM. Burn Alive was originally (sol 25) the hole left behind when Rosy Red was removed (like Baby Bear vs. Goldilocks), and it has since been expanded. Similarly, Wicked Witch (sol 64) and Sorceress (34) came from Snow White.

Posted by: BrianL Aug 14 2008, 04:45 PM

Obviously a coded message from the Phoenix team. The perchlorate story was a big cover-up, they have discovered life, and are being forced by the House Whose Color Shall Not Be Named to keep it under wraps.

Posted by: jmknapp Aug 14 2008, 04:53 PM

Hmmm, that explains all the crumbs on the instrument deck.

Posted by: Stu Aug 14 2008, 06:32 PM

One of my fave 3D views of the robot arm so far...

( Full resolution version http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/keep-digging-phoenix)

Posted by: nprev Aug 14 2008, 06:41 PM

That's worth a multitude of "ooo...ahhh"'s Stu, thanks!

Posted by: remcook Aug 15 2008, 08:45 AM

Finally got round to looking at your 3-d images stu...bloody amazing! cool stuff

Posted by: Ant103 Aug 15 2008, 03:04 PM

Yes, Stu, your amazing is analgyph -oops- your anaglyph is amazing .

Here is a other view of a probably upcomming pan, on Sol 78 :
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/happypan-sol78.jpg

And an anagyph version that I recommand
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/happypan-anaglyphic-sol78.png

The Tell Tale, we see some dust at the bottom of the miror :

Posted by: Stu Aug 15 2008, 04:15 PM

Three gorgeous images there Ant, especially love the colourised Telltale one... one of the clearest I've seen, I think

Posted by: peter59 Aug 15 2008, 07:14 PM

Reality or optical illusion ?

It looks as if several millimetre layer of ice evaporated. These two images of Dodo-Goldilocks trench are taken in similar lightning conditions. Note that the same filter was used for both images.

Posted by: ugordan Aug 15 2008, 07:18 PM

Those don't look like optical effects to me, looks like a depression was left where the "ice" once was.

Posted by: peter59 Aug 15 2008, 07:27 PM

End of Polar Summer.

Beautiful image of the midnight sun low on the horizon.
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_21580.jpg

Posted by: fredk Aug 15 2008, 07:48 PM

Thanks for the good comparison - I wanted to do that myself, so you saved me the effort!

That's got to be significant sublimation, there. And actually it was noticed a couple of weeks ago http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=5249&view=findpost&p=121674

Posted by: Stu Aug 15 2008, 10:38 PM

Wow...

( alternative version in my gallery http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/phoenix-in-the-light-of-the-midnight-sun... which is right? Which do you prefer? )

( BTW: for people who enjoy martian anaglyphs... I've been experimenting with more terrestrial scenes, and here are a couple of examples, from a recent trip to Muncaster Castle... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/cumbriansky/rock.jpg... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/cumbriansky/branches.jpg... God bless Stereo-photomaker! )

Posted by: slinted Aug 16 2008, 02:35 AM

The sol 79 dig expanded on Upper Cupboard, uncovering another large bright spot like the one next door in Dodo-Goldilocks. Since the arm is mostly obscuring the view, the left eye color has the best angle to see the new exposure. Click through for full frame

http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/processed/SS079EFF903232907_190B0L1.jpg
http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/processed/SS079EFF903232907_190B0L1.jpg

Posted by: jmknapp Aug 16 2008, 11:00 AM

An article in New Scientist says about the location of recent digging:

Is Cupboard on "the edges of a pentagon"? If not, where would those edges be?

Posted by: Stu Aug 16 2008, 11:06 AM

Had to chuckle at the wonderfully sarky comment on Mark Lemmon's pix page for Sol 78's planned activities...

Document "Stone Soup" trench (because Dodo, Goldilocks, Upper and Lower Cupboard aren't enough names for 1/4 square meter of Mars)

Posted by: Paul Fjeld Aug 16 2008, 03:00 PM

Wow is right. I like 'em both! I prefer your colorization, but wonder what the "official" version would look like. Isn't there supposed to be some bluish casts away from the sun center somewhere?

Could replicating the colors on Mark's NASA release of the Peter Pan, and using that as a color template for the sunset shots work? I'd try it, but I'm not a pixel jockey like you and some of the other folks here. (I've tried!)

Posted by: nprev Aug 16 2008, 03:47 PM

I like them both, too, but have to vote for the original. Certainly there must be ice and/or CO2 crystals in the upper atmosphere that will spectrum-out the sunset light...it can't all be ruddy, all the time!

Posted by: ConyHigh Aug 16 2008, 03:53 PM

The "pentagon" is in "Tuscon" ... (check out the story...)

Posted by: 1101001 Aug 16 2008, 04:59 PM

Close. Stone Soup.

http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001603/

Posted by: Stu Aug 16 2008, 10:16 PM

http://uanews.org/node/20978

Posted by: stevesliva Aug 16 2008, 10:53 PM

Awesome! Now they can work on a dawn panorama...

Posted by: JTN Aug 16 2008, 11:06 PM

Ooh. Are all those green and blue sparkles in the http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_21574.jpg (e.g. the green one at bottom centre) transient reflections off ice crystals caught in a single filter? (On a brief look, I haven't found a similar but older false-colour press-release image to compare to.)

Posted by: Stu Aug 16 2008, 11:27 PM

Colourisation of the first frost...

"Before and After" image http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/17/phoenix-sees-her-first-frost...

Posted by: jmknapp Aug 17 2008, 01:17 AM

Ah, thanks:



That jibes with the NS article that they'll be looking for perchlorate concentrating at deeper levels.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Aug 17 2008, 01:26 AM

The beginning of the end.

Posted by: Hungry4info Aug 17 2008, 02:48 AM

As this frost starts getting thicker and thicker as time goes on, would it have any particular science value?

And is frost going to be an issue to the point where Phoenix will find itself often shoveling it out of its trenches? Or will Phoenix die before then?

Posted by: nprev Aug 17 2008, 03:17 AM

Sad to say...but, yeah. Hurry up, guys, tempis fugit.

Hungry, if the Viking 2 experience provides any sort of reference, no, they won't have to shovel it out; for the first few weeks of winter anyhow it'll sublimate away pretty fast after sunrise. As the days grow shorter, though, it'll persist & pile up; not sure if Phoenix will live long enough to see the ground perpetually covered in frost before there's just not enough solar energy available to keep it powered up.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 17 2008, 04:15 AM

While it is a sign that temperatures are dropping, they did note that currently the frost is only present earlier than 6 AM. We still have some time left before Phoenix freezes over. It is kind of cool to finally see some frost after speculating so much about it. I had previously noticed http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=5249&view=findpost&p=121753 from time to time. This particular site was named "Winkies and Quadlings."

I found one of the previous observations (sol 60) with false colors that most closely matched those of the frost image (sol 79), and slapped together a gif animation showing the scene with and without frost. The frames are straight RGB composites from the raw jpegs.

Posted by: nprev Aug 17 2008, 04:30 AM

Very nice indeed, Tom, thank you!

Brr. I feel the cold chill already, and was reminded of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFRx4PkXeVM by The Bangles, a remake of a Simon & Garfunkel original: "Hazy Shade of Winter". She's gotta live fast & die young, unfortunately.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 17 2008, 05:28 AM

That's a classic song that I haven't heard in ages, nprev. Thanks for the nostalgia fix.
There are plenty of metaphors in those http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/simon+and+garfunkel/hazy+shade+of+winter_20124736.html that might be applied to Phoenix's situation.

Posted by: Stu Aug 17 2008, 09:41 AM

Very nice animation Tom. As Nick said, BRRRRR!!!!

Had a go myself - http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/17/phoenixs-first-frost-before-and-afterthan yours - which is hanging in the Gallery now...

Thanks for the song link Nick. Not a huge fan of the song itself, but any excuse to see Susanna Hoffs again is greatly appreciated

Posted by: Reckless Aug 17 2008, 09:50 AM

S and G obviously wrote this verse about the Lazarus mode on Phoenix



Hang on to your hopes, my friend
Thats an easy thing to say, but if your hopes should pass away
Simply pretend
That you can build them again
Look around, the grass is high
The fields are ripe, its the springtime of my life


Roy

Posted by: 3488 Aug 17 2008, 10:03 AM

Remember everyone, the solar arrays are dark, so therefore will be warmer than the surface as they absorb more solar energy.
Certainly the first frost IS the beginning of the end, averyage Sol temperatures will only get lower now, but I do not think it's signalling the imminent end of the Phoenix Mission & certainly IMO, Sol 124 for the extention mission end is not unreasonable.

What I expect instead, is that surface operations will reduce, as more time will be required to charge the batteries & leep the internal heaters operating.

Perhaps the RA & TEGA will have to be mothballed in the relatively near future, as they do use a lot of power, but the SSI, Meterology suite etc use relatively little & they should operate right to the bitter end.

Interesting observation & certainly now early morning obs should be made compulsory every sol now, to monitor the build up & sublimation of frost.

When does it form?

Before Midnight? After midnight?

Does anyone know what the temperature was when the frost was imaged?

Andrew Brown.

Posted by: Deimos Aug 17 2008, 02:13 PM

Strangely enough, I heard that song, that version, for the first time in years -- yesterday on the way in to work while contemplating how one would follow-up these observations.

Don't go too far down the beginning-of-the-end track. There is of course some truth (nextersol is the first sol of the rest of your life ...). But there is more than one variable that determines whether frost forms. [incidentally, this line of thought is purely speculative and based only on released images--we'll know more later]

Posted by: Stu Aug 17 2008, 02:18 PM

Ah... I get it... ( nudge nudge...)... you're saying that the "frost" is actually the condensed breath of subsurface martian lifeforms which worship The Bangles as gods, but you can't say anything until the - (wink) - Proper Authorities have been briefed and the comeback album is recorded...



JOKE!!!!! <------ please read.

Posted by: nprev Aug 17 2008, 02:33 PM

Then there will be peace between Man & Martian. I too worshipped The Bangles, but only from afar, alas...<sigh><swoon><drool>...

Posted by: Deimos Aug 17 2008, 02:58 PM

Oh, man, that was soooo not supposed to be leaked yet...

Posted by: belleraphon1 Aug 17 2008, 04:08 PM

Beautiful to see this frost..... but a harbinger that time is marching on for Phoenix.

nprev... must admit I am from the S and G generation but the Bangles are a heckuva lot more fun to watch

Thanks all...

Craig

Posted by: nprev Aug 17 2008, 05:17 PM

Yes, they are, aren't they? A very talented and IMHO underappreciated group in many ways. The fact that every one of them is stunning of course plays no part at all in my estimation (really!)

Really really...always thought that song truly kicked a**. They looked every bit as good as they sounded! (Must confess; I share Stu's infatuation with Susanna, but we ain't gonna fight for her; she's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susanna_Hoffs.)

Posted by: Stu Aug 17 2008, 05:43 PM

(cough, splutter) Steady on there, I didn't say I was infatuated! I actually preferred the bass guitarist, the striking redhead who never smiled. I think she was called "Michael" tho, for some reason.

Anyway, Bangles were ok, but if you want to see real 80s talent then look no further than the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq42To1QgtY&feature=related, who not only gave us some great tunes as a band but also gave the world Jane Wiedlen AND Belinda Carlisle, who gave us the classic "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQahvFdQVu8" the 12" of which I could always rely on to fill dancefloors when I was dj'ing school parties... (warning: video contains bizarre jogging masked children... twenty years on I still have no idea why...)

Sorry... I think I'm scaring the younger members now... I'll shut up.

Posted by: nprev Aug 17 2008, 05:49 PM

Sorry;I damn sure am! (Cool; now all I gotta fight is her husband!)

Posted by: dvandorn Aug 17 2008, 05:49 PM

I prefer the S&G version of the song, for a couple of reasons: first, they wrote it; second, it's one of those sliding-key things that Art Garfunkle liked to play with, and that his voice seems uniquely suited to; third, it's the first version of the song that I was familiar with, and in such things are preferences forged.

Besides, we sang that song in Chorus in high school, and performed it at a choral concert in the fall of my senior year, and it was the S&G tempo and presentation we used as a guide. The Bangles' version is punctuated differently, from a percussion and general rhythm perspective.

Now, if you were to ask me for a preference between the Bangles and S&G for sitting around and chatting in a clothing-prohibited sauna, well... the Bangles win that, hands down. I'll always Walk Like an Egyptian for those girls...

As for the lines that feel to me very much a part of what Phoenix is doing right now, there are two little clips I'd like to point out:


Seasons change with the scenery,
Weaving time in a tapestry,
Won't you stop and remember me...?


and...


Look around,
Leaves are brown,
There's a patch of snow on the ground....


-the other Doug

Posted by: Stu Aug 17 2008, 06:12 PM

... and if there are any young whippersnappers out there thinking "What's all this fuss about the 80s?" then take a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMGGNUSTWT8&feature=related, and then you'll know why we oldies shake our heads at your 'hippety hop' music and think your bling-draped gangsta goons are so silly!

Oh, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bto7l3cKhvkwere much better than today's too...

Posted by: fredk Aug 17 2008, 06:31 PM

At first I thought they were the usual suspects, ccd noise/cosmic rays, but now I think they are true reflections. Other morning frost spot images (taken before the first frost) don't show such sparkles, and in the sol 79 frames that do show them, there are many that coincide exactly in their locations between the R, G, and B frames.

Posted by: imipak Aug 17 2008, 06:32 PM

I don't know about that, but you're scaring me, and I'm almost 40!

So, about this Mars lander thingy... I can't help but notice we've less than a week before the end of the original, 90 sol mission.

Posted by: belleraphon1 Aug 17 2008, 06:35 PM

Here you go, "the other Doug"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yheo2AgNywU

Love the little trumpet duh duh Dah de DA

GROOVIE!!!!!!!

Three years after they performed this I had hair below my shoulder blades..... (memories... it was the springtime of my life)

And Stu... ahem, every generation "does their thing". Tolerance!?

Apologies to Doug for getting WAY off topic... promise to behave after this

Craig

Posted by: Stu Aug 17 2008, 06:48 PM

I've been pondering this too, and there just seem to me to be too many of them, and of so many different colours, for them all to be noise or cr hits. Will definitely be worth keeping an eye on this area - and others, tho this one seems to be the fave frost hunting ground - for more frost as the sols pass. I hope we'll see a concerted effort now to monitor this area and observe the frost forming and creeping towards the lander as the days and weeks pass, should tell us a lot, as well as giving us some truly beautiful pictures.

Speaking of which, will we see anything as dramatic as http://mars.spherix.com/spie2003/SPIE_2003_Paper_GVL_files/image007.jpg Viking pic, do you think..?

Posted by: nprev Aug 17 2008, 06:50 PM

Join ya in way OT...The Bangles really did do it better, all due respect to the original composers.

(Good Lord, I've created a monster!!! Everybody back to Phoenix activities, now, now, now!)

Stu, with respect to that V2 pic: sure hope so, and more.

Posted by: belleraphon1 Aug 17 2008, 06:52 PM

On topic now....

Really am looking forward to watching the frost develop over time.

Hope that they can eke out enough power to continue to get MET data (which seems to be the forgotten instrument complement, but I am just as fascinated with their data and wish we got more of it. Understand they get temp measurements from three differnet heights along the mast. Love it if they would publish a daily for each.... think in midday your toes would be a lot toastier than your head) well past the time when TEGA AND MECA are done.

Also imaging of the MET mast and the surroundings for as long as power holds. I assume MRO will image as long as the area stays sunlit and assume MRO will image again come sping.

Really COOL. In fact... GROOVIE does cover it!!!

Craig

Posted by: Stu Aug 17 2008, 07:02 PM

How long until we see something like this...?

BTW: if anyone else has been wondering what "Winkies" and "Quadlings" - the main rocks in this scene - are named after, apparrently they were two of the tribes of the Land of Oz.

Posted by: belleraphon1 Aug 17 2008, 07:16 PM

Actually I am hoping for something similar to this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7323592@N07/434469147/

But this will be well past the H2O frost point and into the CO2 ice regime. Assume well past the point of any power reserves on Phoenix. And I assume this will probably be well past the point where much sunlight reaches this latitude.

Craig

Posted by: Paul Fjeld Aug 18 2008, 02:53 AM

Thanks! I wondered about that. I'm almost learning as much about fairy-tales and mythology as Mars.

Question: where does "Fiducials" come out of. The modern American financial system Fairy Story?
(No wait... that's fiduciary...)

Posted by: 1101001 Aug 18 2008, 07:02 AM

Where? An optical microscope diagram? That's where I've seen it: they were test images, or marks on the wheel, maybe the MECA babies text. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiducial



I think both fiducial and fiduciary are related to matters of trust.

Posted by: Paul Fjeld Aug 18 2008, 05:52 PM

Well that explains the "SSI Fiducials" taken from SOL 1 through SOL 9 of the same bit of lander and surface. I wondered about those. (It also gave me an excuse for an obscure and lame joke, sadly...)

Posted by: Shaka Aug 18 2008, 10:08 PM

Hey, wayyy beyond cool... freakin' COLD! http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/sol83_20080818.html
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas!

Posted by: JRehling Aug 18 2008, 10:50 PM

But all the roadsigns say "Bridges may freeze before main road" or something like that. The surface has physical contact with mass below it, so I'm not sure if the difference in albedo outweighs the factors of thermal inertia.

Moreover, remember the martian regolith is already very dark -- about 15% albedo? Something with 3% albedo doesn't absorb 5 times as much solar energy -- only 1.14 times as much. Moreover, specular surfaces can be surprisingly cool because they actually *do* reflect a lot of sunlight, but you don't see it unless you're in the glint.

Posted by: Stu Aug 19 2008, 02:23 PM

http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/more-frost-for-phoenix...?

Posted by: slinted Aug 19 2008, 02:53 PM

I think so Stu! Here's a rough hack at the sol 83 morning mosaic (minus one frame).
http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/collections/sol83_R8A2.jpg
http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/collections/sol83_R8A2.jpg

Posted by: Ant103 Aug 19 2008, 02:55 PM

Yes Stu, I confirm .
See this pan I've made (same sol of your picture). We clearly see frost patches on the left, and on the solar pannel, at the middle :
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/sol83-premiersgivres-pano.jpg

I've also made an animation of the LIDAR (the first pictures taken?) on Sol 82. I'm wondering what are these shinny things into the laser, frost on dust particules?
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/lasershot-sol82-aftermidnight.gif

Posted by: Stu Aug 19 2008, 03:12 PM

Awesome work, both of you Frost Hounds... waay ahead of me!

Love this little "frost patch" ( cropped from your image Ant, hope you don't mind...)

Posted by: JRehling Aug 19 2008, 03:21 PM

It seems like there's probably not too much in the way of "weather" going on here besides the diurnal and seasonal effects. I would guess that this is a one-way train. If there's frost one sol, there'll be frost -- and slightly more of it -- the next sol. Winter or bust.

Posted by: Stu Aug 19 2008, 03:25 PM

Yep. Fun to watch it develop, tho...

Posted by: Tman Aug 19 2008, 03:28 PM

Cooked flies...

Yeah Stu, looks almost like a frozen slop

Posted by: jmknapp Aug 19 2008, 03:31 PM

Hopefully they'll name a feature Pumpkin, after Cinderella, & give the frost a fitting place to collect.

Posted by: Stu Aug 19 2008, 03:52 PM

Tweaked and enhanced and generally messed-about-with-in-Photoshop "http://phoenixpics.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/frost-patch-final1.jpg"... Very Viking 2ish I think...

Posted by: Stu Aug 20 2008, 08:05 AM

I think these are early morning (sol 84) clouds..? (Maybe someone could confirm that for me? I'm not enough of an expert on this to discount the possibility it's just noise). If they are, others will do better, I'm sure.

Posted by: Pertinax Aug 20 2008, 12:02 PM

Hey Stu,

By far not an expert, but from what experience I do have I would say absolutely -- nice catch. I'm not able to check at the moment (hope to soon though), but were those taken through one of the WV filters?

(Also interesting is the bright point near the 10:00 position. I figure it's a 'hot pixel', but again will hopefully be able to look better in a bit.)


-- Pertinax

Posted by: Stu Aug 20 2008, 12:07 PM

Not sure about the filters, sorry, others will know I'm sure. Amongst the Sol 84 images there is a sequence of 9 very similar looking ones... I thought there was a hint of something on one of them ( http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=23222&cID=235 ) so I just took a chance...

EDIT: much clearer view through the right "eye"... http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/20/phoenix-caught-staring-up-at-the-cloudsup on my Gallery site...

Posted by: Pertinax Aug 20 2008, 12:46 PM

Pshaw..... No problem. I decided to go look 'quickly':

Left is filter C (12) which is IR between what our geostationary WxSats use for seeing WV and cloud top temperatures.
Right is filter C (12) which is Blue.

Thank you for your gallery.


-- Pertinax

Posted by: jamescanvin Aug 20 2008, 08:01 PM

Finally got around to having a go at this

http://www.nivnac.co.uk/mer/index.php/phoenix-sol-83-r28b-6-pointings

Posted by: 1101001 Aug 20 2008, 11:43 PM

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1833 (August 20)

Posted by: Astro0 Aug 21 2008, 05:04 AM

Sol83 Frost as a desktop.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 21 2008, 07:49 AM

Many thanks to all who have posted imagery of that frosty bowl. Isn't it curious that frost is not apparent in most of the wider angle images? Is that a function of the time of day the images were captured? I'm too tired tonight to explore that avenue.

That was quite informative, but I think we need our workspace map to be updated.

Posted by: jmknapp Aug 21 2008, 11:22 AM

http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s5i39367

Posted by: Stu Aug 21 2008, 04:17 PM

Animation showing http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/more-martian-frost, between 10.29 and 12.03.

Posted by: Stu Aug 21 2008, 08:15 PM

Zoiks, Scooby!!!

Posted by: slinted Aug 21 2008, 09:22 PM

Here's an view of the large icy patch uncovered in Upper Cupboard back on sol 79.
http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/processed/SS084ESF903662122_19CA0RC.jpg
http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/processed/SS084ESF903662122_19CA0RC.jpg

Posted by: jamescanvin Aug 22 2008, 07:07 PM

The state of the work volume on sol 84 - what a mess. Does that hill beyond Dodo-Goldilocks have a name? Very pretty.

http://www.nivnac.co.uk/mer/index.php/phoenix-work-volume-sol-84-r1-16-pointin

James

Posted by: Deimos Aug 22 2008, 07:52 PM

See http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/086.html, caterpillar (or catepillar--not my fault) post-dig doc

Posted by: centsworth_II Aug 22 2008, 08:48 PM

Remember Peter Smith's promise at a press briefing early on to 'lay waste' to the workspace.

Posted by: Stu Aug 25 2008, 05:40 AM

"Caterpillar", Sol 87...

Posted by: Skyrunner Aug 25 2008, 03:16 PM

Found http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/Liquid_Water_in_the_Martian_North_999.html on the perchlorates. Most of it old news but I at least had not seen this before:

Posted by: bdunford Aug 25 2008, 05:35 PM

Check out this Sol 89 http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=24843&cID=247 from underneath the lander. The buildup on the leg seems almost to glow in this view. Meanwhile, the other legs look like they remain free of the stuff. Any recent news/speculation about what we're seeing there?