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Juno development, launch, and cruise, Including Earth flyby imaging Oct 9 2013
PhilHorzempa
post Apr 3 2006, 09:57 PM
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I thought that it was time to start a new thread devoted to the JUNO Jupiter
Orbiter mission. This New Frontiers Mission #2 seems to be a "stealth" project
with little information available on the Web. In fact, the official NASA JUNO
web site is quite pitiful. It contains the minimal amount of information on what
seems to be an intriguing mission, in terms of both science and engineering.

Does the UMSF community have information on this mission that has not
been widely seen before?

Another Phil
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Guest_Richard Trigaux_*
post Jul 20 2006, 06:02 AM
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Will the effect of these bulges be detectable by analysing Juno's position?

Analysing this position alone will be a great chalenge, as, if Juno changes speed and trajectory relative to the bulges, the moons too will do this. So assessing the trajectory alone will already be very complex, especially if the only reference is the set of jovian moons. With my opinion, we need some other stable references:
-ultra stable radio uplink from Earth
-using pulsars or other stable galactic source
-measuring star position.



Once the movement known, analysing tidal effects will too be complicated. Tides are basically waves, which want to propagate at their own speed, independently of the astronomical cause. On Earth such waves can resonate into large oceans, giving a different tide regime for the atlantic ocean and the pacific ocean. On Jupiter, we can think that we shall have resonances along the equator, or more likely different spherical vibration modes. Some will be directly excited by one of the moons, some will on the countrary opose to the excitation by one of the moons.

In a first approximation, we shall have linear waves, or more accurately a spectrum of discreet vibration modes. This will already allow us to sense the depth of the atmosphere and obtain a pressure profile. (if the waves go deep enough. This is not sure, and in heliosysmology there is still a lack of modes involving the core).

In a second step, discrepancies to the linear models will allow us to search for non linear effects, such as damping, elliptic shape of the layers, movements, layers of helium or layers of hydrogen, etc.

The dream would be, like as in heliosysmology which is now able to sense the presence of spots on the opposite side, to see inner Jupiter features like large storms, solid surface features, or convection patterns. After a computer model which was made several years ago, Jupiter would contain a set of several vortexes, paralel to its rotation axis, but avoiding the solid core.


What will be ultimately possible to see will depend on the accuracy of trajectory measurement, I think. This is worth adding some weight, like a telescope (to sense stars) or a set of large antennas.
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JRehling
post Jul 20 2006, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jul 19 2006, 11:02 PM) *
Will the effect of these bulges be detectable by analysing Juno's position?

Analysing this position alone will be a great chalenge, as, if Juno changes speed and trajectory relative to the bulges, the moons too will do this.


I think the key will be to measure the doppler shift of a continuous Juno-to-Earth radio signal to determine Juno's velocity and compare that to the no-bulge expectations of velocity. That's how mascons were discovered on the Moon (and Ganymede). Actually, since merely detecting the bulges is not the point, I think the analysis will be to construct models of how the ten tidal bulges alter Jupiter's shape, make predictions of what Juno's velocity should be, and refine the model based on the data. The bulges will not be moving "hills of atmosphere", though -- they should have manifestations at depth as well, which makes the models more complex, but also more informative. That will help us, in a roundabout way, understand Jupiter's interior.

Using a Juno flyby to calculate the planet's moment of inertia is also/instead a way to go about this. And with that, I find the need to read up on more mathematics.
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Posts in this topic
- PhilHorzempa   Juno development, launch, and cruise   Apr 3 2006, 09:57 PM
- - jamescanvin   Up to now we've been using the "Nasa Pic...   Apr 4 2006, 01:19 AM
|- - Sunspot   QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Apr 4 2006, 02:19 AM...   Apr 4 2006, 01:55 PM
- - Decepticon   Will this probe make any attempt to image Jupiter...   Apr 4 2006, 12:16 PM
- - Analyst   Try this. Analyst   Apr 4 2006, 02:53 PM
|- - Sunspot   QUOTE (Analyst @ Apr 4 2006, 03:53 PM) Tr...   Apr 4 2006, 03:12 PM
- - lyford   I think the link got munged in the quote. Correct...   Apr 4 2006, 03:17 PM
|- - Sunspot   QUOTE (lyford @ Apr 4 2006, 04:17 PM) I t...   Apr 4 2006, 06:05 PM
|- - Bricktop   QUOTE (Sunspot @ Apr 4 2006, 08:05 PM) Sa...   Apr 10 2006, 10:29 AM
- - Harder   Keep on trying! This pdf doc is a good read. I...   Apr 4 2006, 06:39 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Or just turn to that address for the overall JPL T...   Apr 4 2006, 06:59 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   OK, here are those crumbs. The JPL description is...   Apr 10 2006, 03:05 AM
- - Mariner9   Using solar power for JUNO has always intrigued m...   Apr 11 2006, 12:36 AM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (Mariner9 @ Apr 11 2006, 12:36 AM) ...   Apr 11 2006, 02:18 AM
|- - helvick   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Apr 11 2006, 02:18 A...   Apr 11 2006, 06:34 AM
- - Bart   I was rooting around on the ADS server, looking fo...   Apr 11 2006, 01:09 AM
- - edstrick   One thing's for sure... the increase in solar ...   Apr 11 2006, 09:29 AM
- - edstrick   "It describes an instrument for Juno......   Apr 11 2006, 09:43 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Slight historical correction: NASA decided to add ...   Apr 15 2006, 01:48 AM
- - edstrick   That's not what I recall.... but given "N...   Apr 15 2006, 08:25 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   There was a very detailed "Science News...   Apr 15 2006, 08:54 AM
- - edstrick   I have an original copy of that Icarus special iss...   Apr 15 2006, 10:10 AM
- - AlexBlackwell   Again, I apologize for reviving a dormant thread; ...   Jul 18 2006, 01:53 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jul 17 2006, 06:53...   Jul 18 2006, 02:50 PM
||- - helvick   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jul 18 2006, 03:50 PM) ...   Jul 18 2006, 04:05 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jul 17 2006, 03:53...   May 4 2007, 08:41 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ May 4 2007, 01:41 ...   May 6 2007, 09:19 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (JRehling @ May 6 2007, 02:19 PM) S...   May 10 2007, 08:31 PM
- - Mariner9   I had a chance to talk to one of the engineers on ...   Jul 18 2006, 06:39 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (Mariner9 @ Jul 18 2006, 08:39 AM) ...   Jul 18 2006, 09:07 PM
||- - SFJCody   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jul 18 2006, 10:07...   Jul 18 2006, 10:07 PM
|||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (SFJCody @ Jul 18 2006, 12:07 PM) I...   Jul 18 2006, 10:13 PM
||- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jul 18 2006, 05:07...   Jul 19 2006, 08:34 PM
||- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Jul 19 2006, 08:34...   Jul 19 2006, 08:43 PM
||- - JRehling   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jul 19 2006, 01...   Jul 19 2006, 09:45 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Mariner9 @ Jul 18 2006, 11:39 AM) ...   Jul 19 2006, 06:12 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   Will the effect of these bulges be detectable by a...   Jul 20 2006, 06:02 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jul 19 2006, 11...   Jul 20 2006, 02:27 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   A doppler analysis of a permanent signal will give...   Jul 20 2006, 03:48 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jul 20 2006, 08...   Jul 20 2006, 07:52 PM
- - mcaplinger   I think you guys are at least a few orders of magn...   Jul 20 2006, 08:26 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   JRehling, I think that sensing several bulges movi...   Jul 21 2006, 06:19 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jul 20 2006, 11...   Jul 21 2006, 02:20 PM
- - Mariner9   http://www.aip.org/fyi/2006/093.html I just found...   Aug 1 2006, 07:06 PM
|- - Lorne Ipsum   QUOTE (Mariner9 @ Aug 1 2006, 01:06 PM) ....   Sep 17 2006, 09:03 PM
- - Roly   Any further news about JunoCam pictures of the sat...   Sep 18 2006, 02:42 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Roly @ Sep 17 2006, 07:42 PM) Any ...   Sep 18 2006, 02:50 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Sep 18 2006, 07:50 AM...   Sep 18 2006, 04:40 PM
- - gndonald   I find the current 'tussle' on the forum a...   Sep 19 2006, 04:07 PM
- - Analyst   QUOTE (gndonald @ Sep 19 2006, 04:07 PM) ...   Sep 19 2006, 06:15 PM
|- - tedstryk   I know the images are not a priority, but there ar...   Sep 19 2006, 08:14 PM
|- - gndonald   QUOTE (Analyst @ Sep 20 2006, 02:15 AM) V...   Sep 21 2006, 03:13 PM
- - Mariner9   I recall reading about that proposed orbiter. I v...   Sep 21 2006, 05:11 PM
- - Mariner9   I think I was a little vague about the main point ...   Sep 21 2006, 05:14 PM
- - Analyst   QUOTE (gndonald @ Sep 21 2006, 03:13 PM) ...   Sep 21 2006, 06:18 PM
|- - Roly   Given Junocam's heritage from MSL's MARDI,...   Sep 24 2006, 12:26 PM
- - vjkane2000   Juno's camera has been quoted on their website...   Nov 2 2006, 03:39 PM
|- - Lorne Ipsum   QUOTE (vjkane2000 @ Nov 2 2006, 09:39 AM)...   Nov 3 2006, 12:18 AM
|- - ugordan   If the perijove is well inside Io's orbit, doe...   Nov 3 2006, 08:33 AM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (Lorne Ipsum @ Nov 2 2006, 04:18 PM...   Nov 3 2006, 03:50 PM
- - edstrick   The Voyagers got considerable amounts of sampled h...   Nov 4 2006, 11:33 AM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 4 2006, 03:33 AM) T...   Nov 4 2006, 08:49 PM
- - NMRguy   As discussed above, imaging with JunoCam is a peri...   Nov 10 2006, 09:28 AM
|- - Bjorn Jonsson   An obvious problem is that Jupiter's poles nev...   Nov 10 2006, 03:26 PM
|- - Lorne Ipsum   QUOTE (NMRguy @ Nov 10 2006, 03:28 AM) Do...   Dec 26 2006, 10:06 PM
- - nprev   I would imagine that IR-band imaging would be an i...   Nov 10 2006, 04:04 PM
- - John Flushing   I dug out an article from June of 2005. New robot...   Jan 10 2007, 12:34 AM
- - Thu   A new article for Juno: Juno Gets A Little Bigger ...   Mar 12 2007, 11:05 AM
|- - Lorne Ipsum   QUOTE (Thu @ Mar 12 2007, 04:05 AM) I...   Mar 12 2007, 11:22 AM
|- - AndyG   QUOTE (Thu @ Mar 12 2007, 11:05 AM) - How...   Mar 12 2007, 11:31 AM
- - helvick   20% efficiency is conservative, the state of the a...   Mar 12 2007, 12:20 PM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (helvick @ Mar 12 2007, 04:20 AM) ...   Mar 12 2007, 04:30 PM
- - Thu   Thanks Lorne Ipsum, that really helps   Mar 12 2007, 12:24 PM
- - djellison   There's also the issue of how much of that 3 x...   Mar 12 2007, 12:56 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 12 2007, 08:56 AM)...   Mar 12 2007, 04:26 PM
|- - Analyst   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 12 2007, 01:56 PM)...   Mar 13 2007, 06:02 PM
- - Thu   Talking of solar power, I remembered that Deep Spa...   Mar 12 2007, 02:09 PM
- - edstrick   Bruce Moomaw has a couple articles worth checking ...   Mar 13 2007, 08:44 AM
- - helvick   This Boeing\Spectrolab marketing page indicat...   Mar 13 2007, 10:57 AM
- - NMRguy   As far as I can tell, the Juno team has always pla...   Mar 13 2007, 10:03 PM
- - edstrick   Early deep space missions (not including REALLY ea...   Mar 14 2007, 09:35 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Ed, the Mariner 5 dual-frequency occultation exper...   Mar 15 2007, 03:35 AM
- - edstrick   I'm an images type of guy, but with 20-20 hind...   Mar 15 2007, 08:31 AM
|- - tedstryk   I would add that until Venus was nearly frame fill...   Mar 15 2007, 01:48 PM
- - edstrick   "...Venus was nearly frame filling, it is que...   May 7 2007, 07:43 AM
|- - tedstryk   Based on what I have read, the Mariner-R (the desi...   May 8 2007, 01:45 PM
|- - Paolo   QUOTE (tedstryk @ May 8 2007, 03:45 PM) B...   May 8 2007, 06:33 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Paolo @ May 8 2007, 06:33 PM) As f...   May 8 2007, 08:27 PM
- - edstrick   I have a xerox of an article from some journal lik...   May 9 2007, 08:12 AM
- - volcanopele   What's the field of view of JunoCam and what i...   May 10 2007, 08:43 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (volcanopele @ May 10 2007, 10:43 A...   May 10 2007, 08:51 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ May 10 2007, 10:51...   May 10 2007, 09:50 PM
- - volcanopele   hmm, a push-broom detector? Assuming each image i...   May 10 2007, 09:09 PM
- - djellison   JunoCam is a MARDI rip off isn't it? 1600 x 12...   May 10 2007, 09:15 PM
- - vjkane   What would be the resolution of JunoCAM at closest...   May 11 2007, 01:49 AM
- - AlexBlackwell   Note that the Juno website was recently updated.   Sep 13 2007, 06:46 PM
- - nprev   Little bit bummed that there isn't a radio DF ...   Sep 14 2007, 12:03 AM
- - Del Palmer   NASA awards Atlas V contract for Juno: http://www...   Oct 3 2007, 09:51 PM
- - NMRguy   QUOTE (Del Palmer @ Oct 3 2007, 11:51 PM)...   Oct 4 2007, 10:38 PM
- - mchan   QUOTE (NMRguy @ Oct 4 2007, 03:38 PM) Non...   Oct 5 2007, 10:39 AM
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