IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

James Webb Space Telescope, information, updates and discussion
Redstone
post Aug 23 2005, 02:01 PM
Post #1


Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 134
Joined: 13-March 05
Member No.: 191



The manufacture of the JWST mirror blanks has now been completed.

Despite this milestone, the fate of JWST is still somewhat precarious, because although the scientific bang from the telescope is expected to be huge, the bucks required have increased to a staggering $4.5 billion. A Space.com article on the squeeze in NASA's space-based astronomy plans gives some background.

The JWST home page can be found here.

The Space Telescope Science Institute, which runs Hubble, also has a site here. As does ESA.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Guest_BruceMoomaw_*
post Mar 14 2006, 03:47 AM
Post #2





Guests






Particularly interesting quotes from the article:

(1) "At the beginning of the millennium, US astronomers thought that their most-wanted project would cost $1 billion...NASA's latest budget puts the project's price tag, including $1 billion for a decade's worhthof operations, at $4.5 billion. That's more than the entire annual research and development budget of the National Science Foundation; it represents more than $1 million for each full member of the American Astronomical Society." Which, I think, makes my point again about the low cost-effectiveness of most space science, and the immense difficulty it would have competing for government funding in any honest competition with other kinds of scientific research.

(2) One part of the problem DOES seem to be NASA HQ's fault. "A delay in the government's decision to move from a US launcher to the Ariane added an estimated $300 million as highly paid engineers were unable to move forward until they knew which rocket they were designing for. The situation is particularly embarrassing given that the cost of delaying the decision ended up being greater than the cost of the launch." Ah, the rationality of government. Still, this is only 1/12 of the total cost rise.

(3) As for the other causes of the cost underestimate: "The Decadal Survey guessed the cost as $1 billion. Studies in the mid-1990s had pegged the price as between $500 million and $1 billion. These were based on the hope -- unfulfilled, as it happened -- that the Webb Telescope might take advantage of advances in building low-cost spaceraft developed by the military."

However: "Garth Illingworth of UC-Santa Cruz, who chaired the 1990 panel [which much more acurately predicted its current cost], chalks the anomalously low estimates from the 1990s up to a 'lack of reality' inherent in the 'faster, better, cheaper' philosophy of Dan Goldin...Reinhard Genzel of Germany's Max Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Garchning says it was clear at the time that a $500 million estimate for the Webb Telescope was a 'political price'...

"Today, Illingworth inveighs against the 'extraordinarily bad, artificial cost estimates' of the Goldin era. But the 2000 Decadal Survey seems to have been happy to accept them. The world of big science is well used to projects being lowballed -- a process that gets schemes started on the basis of a low-cost estimate, with the implicit hope that by the time the true costs are known inertia and vested interests will make it impossible to pull out. Lowballing is not a practice anyone would like to defend on principle, but histories like the Hubble's show it can work." That is, our old friend the Camel's Nose again -- exactly the same technique NASA used to get Shuttle and Station funded.

(4) Where Hubble is concerned: "[Hubble project scientist Robert] O'Dell recalls that in 1972, Hubble's total price including its first year of operations was projected to be...$1 billion in today's prices. According to Robert Smith, a historian at Canada's Univ. of Alberta who wrote a political history of the telescope...'the development cost of Hubble to date is certainly more than $4 billion.'

"NASA's Eric Smith adds that when new instruments and operating expenses are added, that comes to $9 billion. This doesn't include the cost of four space shuttle servicing missions to Hubble, and a fifth being planned -- the cost of a shuttle launch can be put at about $500 million. All in all, building, launching, using and refurbishing Hubble has probably been the most expensive undertaking ever made in the name of pure science; the mission is still, remarkably, costing over $300 million a year." (And that's ignoring the fact that the true cost of each Shuttle mission, using honest accounting, is over $1 billion!)

(5) Charles Beichman of JPL, a leading light of the cancelled Terrestrial Planet Finder mission...thinks that the Webb Telescope will be 'a fine machine. It will do fantastic science.' In fact, he is on one of the instrument teams. But when he goes to professional meetings, he sees more young astronomers attending sessions on planet-finding than on Hubble or the Webb Telescope." Of course, Beichman couldn't POSSIBLY be a biased witness in this matter. Heavens, no. But I do find it at least plausible that the examination of other solar systems is considered, on balance, more romantic -- and thus more interesting -- by genuine astronomers than cosmology or other fields of space astronomy are, just as it is by the nonscientific public.

Still, as the article says, "anyone who doesn't realize that TPF would be costlier than the Webb Telescope is dreaming." I shudder to think what the real cost of THAT endeavor will end up being -- which is why I have no objection at all to protractedly deferring it until Kepler and/or SIM have given us the initial census of the frequency of potentially habitable planets which we need to make even the most basic decisions as to the design of TPF.

In summary, it is very hard to blame the Webb Telescope problem itself on NASA HQ -- although of course the cuts in space science spending as a whole can be blamed on the hypertrophied (or, to be more accurate, metastasized) manned space program. But where Webb's tendency to hog most of whatever the actual space astronomy budget turns out to be is concerned, I think that space astronomers -- to quote Popeye the Sailor -- "buttered their bread and now they've got to sleep in it."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- Redstone   James Webb Space Telescope   Aug 23 2005, 02:01 PM
- - djellison   Just how does it end up costing $4.5B ( which...   Aug 23 2005, 02:10 PM
|- - jasedm   QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 23 2005, 03:10 PM)...   Sep 8 2021, 09:58 PM
- - Redstone   Well, a 6.5m telescope is pretty big even on the g...   Aug 23 2005, 02:42 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   The JWST has always struck me as being a prime exa...   Aug 23 2005, 03:03 PM
|- - dilo   4.5 billion is a lot. If I'm not wrong, this i...   Aug 23 2005, 09:22 PM
|- - GravityWaves   QUOTE (dilo @ Aug 23 2005, 06:22 PM) 4.5 ...   Apr 1 2006, 07:27 PM
- - Redstone   It seems JWST is safe from outright cancellation f...   Aug 26 2005, 09:50 PM
|- - antoniseb   QUOTE (Redstone @ Aug 26 2005, 04:50 PM)JWST ...   Aug 26 2005, 10:31 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   IMHO, JWST should be put on hold, and then back ou...   Aug 26 2005, 10:39 PM
- - Redstone   First JWST mirror segment delivered for polishing....   Oct 9 2005, 04:16 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   "Really, it's nuts to NOT make JWST man-t...   Oct 9 2005, 10:07 PM
- - SigurRosFan   "The James Webb Space Telescope is a large, i...   Oct 9 2005, 10:24 PM
- - Redstone   Some more detail on the JWST delay to 2013. The ar...   Nov 21 2005, 01:53 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   I moved this from a thread I started to this one. ...   Mar 8 2006, 08:56 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   My attempt to attach this article failed; it overl...   Mar 14 2006, 03:07 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Particularly interesting quotes from the article: ...   Mar 14 2006, 03:47 AM
- - AlexBlackwell   To keep things tidy and prevent sprawling, disconn...   Mar 14 2006, 05:02 PM
- - ljk4-1   James Webb Telescope Sunshield Membrane Passes Tes...   May 16 2006, 02:44 PM
- - ljk4-1   ATK To Provide More Components For James Webb Spac...   May 31 2006, 05:53 PM
- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0606175 From: Jon...   Jun 9 2006, 07:28 PM
- - Decepticon   I'm looking forward to seeing alpha centauri i...   Jun 16 2006, 10:29 PM
- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE JWST is a partnership between ESA, NASA, and...   Jun 16 2006, 10:35 PM
|- - GravityWaves   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jun 16 2006, 07:35 ...   Jul 5 2006, 01:09 AM
- - Littlebit   http://www.irconnect.com/noc/press/pages/n....mhtm...   Jan 22 2007, 03:27 PM
- - SigurRosFan   - Telescope mirror nears completion QUOTE Enginee...   Feb 9 2007, 05:36 PM
- - GravityWaves   "6.6m (22ft) in diameter", that's fa...   Feb 19 2007, 02:12 PM
- - ollopa   NASA, ESA and the CSA are holding a technical rev...   May 21 2007, 01:09 PM
- - helvick   Great stuff - finally something to go to that is c...   May 21 2007, 06:24 PM
- - djellison   This thread will be useless without pics. You hav...   May 21 2007, 08:18 PM
- - helvick   I'm on it boss.   May 21 2007, 08:32 PM
- - jaredGalen   Some one has posted some pics (2) of the Full scal...   May 23 2007, 10:23 AM
- - djellison   That's two of you. STEREO OBSERVATIONS. Do i...   May 23 2007, 10:35 AM
- - AlexBlackwell   NASA Adds Docking Capability For Next Space Observ...   May 23 2007, 07:29 PM
- - jaredGalen   Anyone have new info on events associated with nex...   Jun 6 2007, 11:11 AM
- - helvick   I stopped by the Royal Hospital today at lunchtime...   Jun 8 2007, 02:27 PM
- - ollopa   Members of this forum are especially welcome to th...   Jun 9 2007, 01:17 AM
- - ollopa   Currently - and remember these things can change -...   Jun 9 2007, 01:53 AM
|- - helvick   I just re-arranged my Monday schedule so I'll ...   Jun 9 2007, 01:31 PM
- - helvick   I went back to check on the model's progress a...   Jun 9 2007, 05:19 PM
- - climber   Thanks helvick. I'll come to Ireland by mid au...   Jun 9 2007, 06:01 PM
- - helvick   My understanding is that it is going to remain for...   Jun 9 2007, 09:43 PM
|- - ollopa   QUOTE (helvick @ Jun 9 2007, 10:43 PM) It...   Jun 10 2007, 12:53 AM
- - nprev   Helvick, do you know the rest of its schedule? Hop...   Jun 10 2007, 12:22 AM
- - ollopa   Direct from its Washington premier just last month...   Jun 10 2007, 11:25 PM
- - nprev   This is gonna sound trite, but damn that thing is ...   Jun 11 2007, 01:25 AM
- - dilo   What an impressive shot, allopa! I'm fasci...   Jun 11 2007, 06:00 AM
- - helvick   As promised by Ollopa UMSF folks were allowed to a...   Jun 11 2007, 09:39 PM
|- - Analyst   QUOTE (helvick @ Jun 11 2007, 09:39 PM) N...   Jun 19 2007, 12:46 PM
- - helvick   Oh and I forgot to thank Ollapa for the inivtation...   Jun 11 2007, 09:44 PM
- - djellison   Good job - your forum title has been appropriately...   Jun 11 2007, 10:12 PM
- - ollopa   It seems to be one of the worst-kept secrets in As...   Jun 16 2007, 02:54 PM
- - helvick   JWST Partner's Workshop - Dublin 11 June 2007 ...   Jun 19 2007, 07:22 PM
- - helvick   JWST Partner's Workshop - Dublin 11 June 2007 ...   Jun 19 2007, 08:55 PM
- - PhilCo126   Just superb: http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/obj...   Apr 22 2008, 04:00 PM
- - climber   Air & Cosmos oct 17th issue says that a mockup...   Oct 18 2008, 03:55 PM
|- - Oersted   I think this is the best deployment animation: ht...   Dec 3 2008, 11:54 PM
- - bkellysky   A full-sized mockup of the James Webb Space Telesc...   Jun 4 2010, 08:02 PM
- - Ron Hobbs   Xinhua has some really great pictures of the mock-...   Jun 4 2010, 09:12 PM
- - bkellysky   Photo of the mock-up from the world science festiv...   Jun 5 2010, 01:04 PM
- - Ron Hobbs   bob, That is a great picture! Thanks.   Jun 5 2010, 03:44 PM
- - Big_Gazza   Oh dear, the spectre of cancellation of the JWST i...   Jul 7 2011, 10:42 AM
- - Syrinx   I became ill when I read about this yesterday. I ...   Jul 7 2011, 09:38 PM
- - nprev   Let's all take a deep breath, calm down, and h...   Jul 7 2011, 11:08 PM
- - Explorer1   Surely the components already made won't be tr...   Jul 8 2011, 12:58 AM
- - Hungry4info   If it goes like SIM(-lite), the hardware will prob...   Jul 8 2011, 03:12 AM
- - Greg Hullender   If no one has any new facts to bring to the discus...   Jul 8 2011, 02:56 PM
- - nprev   Also recall that Dawn WAS effectively cancelled fo...   Jul 9 2011, 12:19 AM
- - Mongo   News Flash: James Webb Space Telescope SAVED! ...   Sep 15 2011, 09:03 PM
- - djellison   How many times do I have to clean up this thread b...   Sep 15 2011, 09:59 PM
- - Steve G   Is the JWST going to be used for any Solar System ...   Feb 20 2015, 01:27 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Steve G @ Feb 20 2015, 06:27 AM) I...   Feb 20 2015, 03:57 PM
- - Jaro_in_Montreal   I looked through the FAQs and even posted a questi...   Feb 24 2015, 10:55 PM
- - djellison   I believe you have to specifically design the inst...   Feb 24 2015, 11:33 PM
- - abalone   Time-lapse: The Assembly of the James Webb Space T...   Feb 12 2016, 11:09 AM
- - B Bernatchez   Looks like the optics have been mated to the ISIM....   May 4 2016, 07:56 PM
- - Steve G   With the launch 2 years away, I've tried to fi...   Nov 3 2016, 03:44 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Steve G @ Nov 3 2016, 08:44 AM) [....   Nov 3 2016, 05:40 PM
- - elakdawalla   One issue I hadn't appreciated until recently ...   Nov 3 2016, 03:56 PM
|- - SteveM   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Nov 3 2016, 10:56 AM...   Nov 12 2016, 02:19 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   Uh-oh! Engineers examine unexpected readings ...   Dec 22 2016, 02:31 PM
- - B Bernatchez   I don't imagine that they crank up the shaker ...   Dec 22 2016, 08:20 PM
|- - JRehling   It sounds like the anomalous vibration at least di...   Dec 28 2016, 11:37 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   Good news. The problem has been resolved ... Vib...   Jan 26 2017, 02:15 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   One more (hopefully final) launch delay. No one t...   Oct 6 2017, 06:46 PM
|- - JRehling   And that last delay was not final. Now we're h...   Apr 2 2018, 03:12 PM
|- - JRehling   This is not a great surprise, but work on the JWST...   Mar 23 2020, 07:34 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   Spaceflight Now article: Seven Month Launch Delay   Jul 17 2020, 10:57 PM
- - Steve G   A good article just released. https://www.nasa.go...   Aug 3 2020, 02:36 PM
|- - JRehling   There is at least one more launch delay. A launch ...   Jun 3 2021, 06:00 PM
- - Explorer1   Already done! https://xkcd.com/2014/   Jun 3 2021, 07:20 PM
|- - JRehling   That is a perfect display of the data and observat...   Jun 4 2021, 05:49 PM
- - Explorer1   True, but many ephemeral objects (and events) have...   Jun 5 2021, 01:00 AM
|- - JRehling   JWST will have about the same resolution as HST, s...   Jun 5 2021, 04:06 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   The JWST has completed all testing and is being bu...   Aug 27 2021, 03:30 PM
|- - JRehling   JWST now has an announced launch date of December ...   Sep 8 2021, 07:11 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   It's happening. JWST has left on a boat and i...   Sep 30 2021, 08:06 PM
|- - TrappistPlanets   The probe will launch next week on the 22nd https:...   Dec 13 2021, 08:53 PM
- - jasedm   Fingers crossed for this launch date - it's be...   Dec 14 2021, 04:14 PM
- - vikingmars   QUOTE (jasedm @ Dec 14 2021, 05:14 PM) Ca...   Dec 15 2021, 09:07 AM
3 Pages V   1 2 3 >


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th April 2024 - 07:08 PM
RULES AND GUIDELINES
Please read the Forum Rules and Guidelines before posting.

IMAGE COPYRIGHT
Images posted on UnmannedSpaceflight.com may be copyrighted. Do not reproduce without permission. Read here for further information on space images and copyright.

OPINIONS AND MODERATION
Opinions expressed on UnmannedSpaceflight.com are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UnmannedSpaceflight.com or The Planetary Society. The all-volunteer UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderation team is wholly independent of The Planetary Society. The Planetary Society has no influence over decisions made by the UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderators.
SUPPORT THE FORUM
Unmannedspaceflight.com is funded by the Planetary Society. Please consider supporting our work and many other projects by donating to the Society or becoming a member.