IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

OPAG Reports, Formal proposals/evaluations of future outer SS missions
JRehling
post Nov 9 2007, 08:28 PM
Post #1


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 2530
Joined: 20-April 05
Member No.: 321



http://www.lpi.usra.edu/opag/announcements.html

That's one little URL with a lifetime's worth of reading material.

Three detailed studies are available in PDF format. The missing body is Titan, which will be the subject of a forthcoming report.

The three focus missions are:
Europa Explorer: Fairly detailed description of a mission that is pretty much what Europa Orbiter would have been.

Jupiter System Observer: Basically, Galileo 2 (without the antenna mishap!). The craft would start with a 3-year tour of all the Galileans, then spend 1 year in an elliptical Ganymede orbit, then the rest of the mission in a tight, polar Ganymede orbit (like MGS at Mars). That would map the heck out of Ganymede, but also be close enough to the rest of the system to make long-range observations for years. Note that Ganymede would thereby provide a lot of radiation shielding.

Enceladus: where three profiles are examined in depth: Enceladus Orbiter only; Enceladus Orbiter with soft lander; Saturn orbiter with Enceladus soft lander.

There's more to chew on here than I have had (or may ever have) time for, but I'll throw in my two cents' worth:

Seems like a Europa-only mission would only benefit from coming after a JSO. EE would explore Europa much better than JSO would; why even have JSO observations at Europa if EE came first? In many ways, these two missions are competitive. EE would have the big payoff, but JSO seems like basic recon that would prime EE, especially giving specs on radar performance. But if we waited til JSO was 4 years into its mission before completing design of EE, then put EE sometime mid-century.

If an Enceladus mission included a Saturn orbiter, then maybe the same orbiter could provide data relay for separate Titan elements. However, a lot of the Enceladus science goals would require an Enceladus orbiter, so I don't think a Saturn orbiter for Enceladus/Titan will win out.

Note that Enceladus orbital velocity is low enough that the craft could manage to take lots of hits from ice pellets and survive. Put a bulletproof vest on the craft and let it soar through the plumes endlessly.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
nprev
post Nov 19 2007, 01:48 PM
Post #2


Merciless Robot
****

Group: Admin
Posts: 8783
Joined: 8-December 05
From: Los Angeles
Member No.: 602



Although I'm not really a Europaphile myself, I'd have to vote for EE as the pick of this litter. Not only would we get nice new coverage for the other Galilean moons (and remote monitoring of Io), but remember that Europa's been declared a high-priority objective in close alignment with one of NASA's top-level science goals. Therefore, EE would probably be easier to sell to senior management then the other missions.

(My emphasis here is on getting an outer-planet mission in the pipeline ASAP; we're looking at quite a gap already after Cassini & NH).

Nigel, you're right; I don't envy the task of whomever has to choose amongst these proposals, I want to fly them all. Is this Alan's new job?


--------------------
A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
tedstryk
post Nov 19 2007, 06:05 PM
Post #3


Interplanetary Dumpster Diver
****

Group: Admin
Posts: 4404
Joined: 17-February 04
From: Powell, TN
Member No.: 33



QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 19 2007, 01:48 PM) *
Although I'm not really a Europaphile myself, I'd have to vote for EE as the pick of this litter. Not only would we get nice new coverage for the other Galilean moons (and remote monitoring of Io), but remember that Europa's been declared a high-priority objective in close alignment with one of NASA's top-level science goals. Therefore, EE would probably be easier to sell to senior management then the other missions.

Depends. Both would do Europa science. However, it is my understanding that JSO is significantly cheaper because of not having to stay as far inside the Jovian magnetosphere for an extended period of time. It also would, for the same reasons, not require as much new technology. And frankly, I think it would help us better select instruments and priorities for future missions. Galileo's coverage was so spotty that you can't convince me that there aren't new major areas of interest we are missing. I mean, look at all we have found on Mars with imagers since the Mariners and Vikings? Galileo and Voyager coverage of the Galileans doesn't even begin to compare. For instance, JSO might discover plumes eminating from Europa a la Enceladus (which would be much smaller because of Europa's greater gravitational pull). If so, it would be desireable to have appropriate instruments for in situ studies (sort of a below-the-ice freebie, although it wouldn't exactly be pristine material after being propelled into space). Galileo did a plume search, but it was never likely to suceed, given the extremely limited number of images it was able to take. JSO could even continue such a search from Ganymede if it was deemed desireable. My point is that Europa could still be used as a selling point.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JRehling
post Nov 19 2007, 06:56 PM
Post #4


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 2530
Joined: 20-April 05
Member No.: 321



QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 19 2007, 10:05 AM) *
Galileo's coverage was so spotty that you can't convince me that there aren't new major areas of interest we are missing. I mean, look at all we have found on Mars with imagers since the Mariners and Vikings? Galileo and Voyager coverage of the Galileans doesn't even begin to compare.


There oughta be a metric of diversity. Deimos seems to have a lot fewer terrain types than Earth. Some worlds, you haven't seen it all til you've seen it all. Others, any sampling of the surface will do.

In terms of the Galileans, Callisto is most likely to be homogenous. The difference between a dedicated orbiter and two good flybys might be how much of the same stuff you see. Ganymede is much more interesting, but it would be hard to prove that the same isn't true there: maybe one close up of the grooves plus km-scale global mapping shows you the full set of variety.

Io, in any of these plans, gets a compromise approach: You can't observe Io up close for a very long time, even though you'd like to. So you have to observe it up close in glimpses, then for a long time from afar. JSO obviously does this better than EE; I think reading between the lines, you see JSO as mainly an Io mission that happens to spend all of its time in bed with Io's sister.

JSO would also be very useful for good plume search surveys of Europa, but that's a particular kind of investigation that may be a wild goose chase. Europa is one of the very few outer SS worlds that will eventually merit a multi-mission sequence, so we want to play Twenty Questions very carefully when the questions cost a couple of billion dollars.

Ultimately, I think Europa's likely diversity is what makes it the key target of interest. I keep thinking about (but not mentioning) Conamara Chaos. This is where we saw the sliding ice blocks that said so much about the crust and its dynamics. Conamara is tiny -- only 100 km or so. There are other areas of Europa we still never have seen with decent resolution, and they may contain a half-dozen more Conamaras -- or sites much more (recently) active than that. With this in mind, I want to see us absolutely nail Europa before we spend a billion dollars anywhere else in the jovian system. JSO would improve our Europa coverage, but it would mean we'd STILL need to launch another EE-style mission before the next Europa mission.

Given that, I'd argue for EE now and then after that contemplating a mission architecture where a JSO-like mission could serve as the comsat for a Europa lander.

I'm not normally part of the astrobiology mafia, but Europa has a surface about as old as Philadelphia whereas the other icy Galileans have surfaces as old as the Moon. Io obviously is a seriously competing interest (fraught, unfortunately, with perils), but Ganymede and Callisto aren't even in the same league as Europa in terms of follow-on interest.

I'd consider adding Io flyby(s) to EE -- later launch dates could improve mass margins so that more shielding could be added. But if EE doesn't fly next, then we're postponing an endgame which is potentially the most interesting in the solar system -- there could be dead bacteria in that dirty ice, waiting for a microscope to see!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- JRehling   OPAG Reports   Nov 9 2007, 08:28 PM
- - Mariner9   Drats. Everytime I try to download the Europa rep...   Nov 12 2007, 08:19 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Mariner9 @ Nov 12 2007, 12:19 PM) ...   Nov 12 2007, 08:42 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (Mariner9 @ Nov 12 2007, 08:19 PM) ...   Nov 12 2007, 08:57 PM
- - vjkane   Some more details comparing the Europa explorer an...   Nov 13 2007, 05:14 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (vjkane @ Nov 13 2007, 09:14 AM) So...   Nov 13 2007, 07:39 PM
|- - JRehling   The full Europa Explorer report is now up. More re...   Nov 13 2007, 10:38 PM
- - PhilCo126   Again this points out we live in exciting times, w...   Nov 13 2007, 06:08 PM
- - volcanopele   Sweet! Obviously, the two that I favor are JS...   Nov 14 2007, 07:38 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (volcanopele @ Nov 14 2007, 07:38 P...   Nov 14 2007, 08:01 PM
- - volcanopele   Yes, if the only difference were which moon was or...   Nov 14 2007, 08:07 PM
|- - vjkane   I've taken a look through the JSO and Europa E...   Nov 16 2007, 12:39 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (vjkane @ Nov 15 2007, 04:39 PM) I...   Nov 18 2007, 10:14 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (JRehling @ Nov 18 2007, 05:14 PM) ...   Nov 19 2007, 01:37 AM
|- - tedstryk   I tend to favor JSO due to the better Io coverage,...   Nov 19 2007, 11:37 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Nov 18 2007, 05:37 PM) I...   Nov 19 2007, 06:06 PM
- - ngunn   I tend to agree. Whereas EE is really a fixed-term...   Nov 19 2007, 01:23 PM
- - nprev   Although I'm not really a Europaphile myself, ...   Nov 19 2007, 01:48 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 19 2007, 01:48 PM) Alt...   Nov 19 2007, 06:05 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 19 2007, 10:05 AM) ...   Nov 19 2007, 06:21 PM
||- - tedstryk   Two things that I would really like to see are lon...   Nov 19 2007, 06:44 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 19 2007, 07:05 PM) ...   Nov 19 2007, 06:45 PM
||- - volcanopele   QUOTE (ugordan @ Nov 19 2007, 11:45 AM) I...   Nov 19 2007, 07:10 PM
|||- - ugordan   QUOTE (volcanopele @ Nov 19 2007, 08:10 P...   Nov 19 2007, 07:19 PM
||- - ngunn   QUOTE (ugordan @ Nov 19 2007, 06:45 PM) b...   Nov 19 2007, 10:28 PM
||- - ugordan   QUOTE (ngunn @ Nov 19 2007, 11:28 PM) If ...   Nov 19 2007, 10:43 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 19 2007, 10:05 AM) ...   Nov 19 2007, 06:56 PM
|- - vjkane   I think that the discussion of which moon is more ...   Nov 19 2007, 08:46 PM
|- - tedstryk   I still fail to see what makes Europa so much more...   Nov 19 2007, 09:46 PM
||- - nprev   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 19 2007, 01:46 PM) ...   Nov 19 2007, 10:13 PM
||- - tedstryk   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 19 2007, 10:13 PM) The...   Nov 19 2007, 10:25 PM
|- - Juramike   Here's my rundown (pretty much mentioned by vj...   Nov 19 2007, 11:36 PM
|- - tedstryk   I think that the additional time observing the Jov...   Nov 20 2007, 12:13 AM
|- - NMRguy   QUOTE (vjkane @ Nov 19 2007, 12:36 AM) Wh...   Nov 20 2007, 12:42 AM
- - nprev   Hmm again...keeping up with all these great argume...   Nov 19 2007, 08:42 PM
- - nprev   Ted, when I said "public", should've...   Nov 19 2007, 10:34 PM
- - nprev   Man, this thread is on fire...great stuff, though....   Nov 19 2007, 10:55 PM
- - volcanopele   Again, the problem is that the EE has nothing to w...   Nov 19 2007, 11:00 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (volcanopele @ Nov 20 2007, 12:00 A...   Nov 19 2007, 11:10 PM
|- - vjkane   Just to add more fun to this debate, a long time a...   Nov 19 2007, 11:32 PM
- - Mariner9   I'm surprised that almost the entire debate se...   Nov 20 2007, 12:07 AM
- - djellison   You could make those same arguments regarding the ...   Nov 20 2007, 12:10 AM
|- - Mariner9   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 19 2007, 04:10 PM)...   Nov 20 2007, 01:08 AM
- - vjkane   The swing argument in favor of making the next Fla...   Nov 20 2007, 01:29 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (vjkane @ Nov 19 2007, 05:29 PM) Th...   Nov 20 2007, 02:17 AM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 19 2007, 09:17 PM) ......   Nov 20 2007, 06:11 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Nov 19 2007, 10:11...   Nov 20 2007, 07:15 AM
- - vjkane   I've been trying to think of creative solution...   Nov 20 2007, 04:47 AM
- - dvandorn   This discussion is interesting in that it seems to...   Nov 20 2007, 05:45 AM
- - volcanopele   The one good thing about EE is that it would be a ...   Nov 20 2007, 07:30 AM
- - edstrick   (Without reading the voluminous material on the op...   Nov 20 2007, 10:22 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 20 2007, 10:22 AM) ...   Nov 20 2007, 12:38 PM
||- - tedstryk   One thing to add. I would quickly defect from my ...   Nov 20 2007, 02:24 PM
||- - nprev   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 20 2007, 04:38 AM) ...   Nov 20 2007, 02:30 PM
||- - ugordan   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 20 2007, 03:30 PM) Bui...   Nov 20 2007, 02:48 PM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (ugordan @ Nov 20 2007, 02:48 PM) Y...   Nov 20 2007, 02:57 PM
||- - ugordan   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 20 2007, 03:57 PM)...   Nov 20 2007, 03:16 PM
||- - tedstryk   QUOTE (ugordan @ Nov 20 2007, 03:16 PM) P...   Nov 20 2007, 03:40 PM
||- - JRehling   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 20 2007, 07:40 AM) ...   Nov 20 2007, 06:38 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 20 2007, 10:22 AM) ...   Nov 20 2007, 02:33 PM
- - nprev   No question at all that there would be trade-offs,...   Nov 20 2007, 03:05 PM
- - Juramike   I agree with ugordan, scientific goals should driv...   Nov 20 2007, 04:37 PM
- - nprev   Looks more & more like we're not going to ...   Nov 20 2007, 07:08 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 20 2007, 07:08 PM) . I...   Nov 20 2007, 07:12 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 20 2007, 11:12 AM)...   Nov 20 2007, 07:16 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 20 2007, 02:12 PM)...   Nov 20 2007, 08:20 PM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Nov 20 2007, 08:20...   Nov 20 2007, 08:48 PM
||- - JRehling   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 20 2007, 12:48 PM)...   Nov 21 2007, 05:02 AM
||- - tedstryk   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 20 2007, 08:48 PM)...   Nov 21 2007, 02:30 PM
|||- - vjkane   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 21 2007, 02:30 PM) ...   Nov 21 2007, 03:58 PM
||- - mchan   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 20 2007, 12:48 PM)...   Nov 21 2007, 04:02 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 20 2007, 07:12 PM)...   Nov 20 2007, 10:28 PM
- - volcanopele   LOL Yeah, that's a good point to keep in mind...   Nov 20 2007, 07:24 PM
- - ngunn   I've scanned the Enceladus report and was surp...   Nov 20 2007, 08:41 PM
- - vjkane   I stole a little time at lunch to compare camera r...   Nov 20 2007, 09:25 PM
- - vjkane   For camera resolutions from different missions at ...   Nov 20 2007, 09:28 PM
- - mchan   Very much enjoying the discussion here. For EE, d...   Nov 21 2007, 05:23 AM
- - djellison   I thought about adding Ulysses - but in terms of t...   Nov 21 2007, 02:49 PM
- - Bjorn Jonsson   Having skimmed through these reports (I need to re...   Nov 21 2007, 04:34 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (Bjorn Jonsson @ Nov 21 2007, 11:34...   Nov 21 2007, 05:21 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Nov 21 2007, 09:21...   Nov 21 2007, 05:40 PM
- - Bjorn Jonsson   I should clarify that the main reasons I find the ...   Nov 21 2007, 06:08 PM
- - djellison   Saturnian and Jovians systems - They're both i...   Nov 21 2007, 06:49 PM
- - Geographer   How much more expensive would a Saturnian mission ...   Nov 22 2007, 02:04 PM
- - Mariner9   On the surface of things, you would think that a S...   Nov 22 2007, 03:39 PM
- - Bjorn Jonsson   True - but there's one problem: A Jupiter grav...   Nov 22 2007, 04:42 PM
|- - Mariner9   QUOTE (Bjorn Jonsson @ Nov 22 2007, 08:42...   Nov 22 2007, 07:41 PM
- - nprev   Does JPL or another agency maintain a launch oppor...   Nov 22 2007, 05:21 PM
|- - gndonald   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 23 2007, 02:21 AM) Doe...   Nov 22 2007, 10:12 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (gndonald @ Nov 22 2007, 02:12 PM) ...   Nov 22 2007, 10:42 PM
|- - Del Palmer   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 22 2007, 10:42 PM) Yea...   Nov 22 2007, 11:20 PM
- - nprev   I stand corrected: Gary Flandro is an American, wo...   Nov 23 2007, 12:24 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 23 2007, 01:24 AM) Poi...   Nov 23 2007, 09:55 AM
- - edstrick   My brain's bouncing off a statement made a cou...   Nov 23 2007, 07:37 AM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 23 2007, 02:37 AM) ...   Nov 23 2007, 01:42 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Nov 23 2007, 05:42 AM) A...   Nov 23 2007, 03:25 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Nov 23 2007, 01:42 PM) A...   Nov 23 2007, 05:39 PM
- - nprev   Thought so; in fact, seems as if I saw a recent pa...   Nov 23 2007, 10:51 AM
- - Floyd   The problem is what do you mean by "very favo...   Nov 23 2007, 01:02 PM
- - ngunn   All agog to read the Titan OPAG report when it app...   Nov 23 2007, 01:56 PM
4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th April 2024 - 09:35 AM
RULES AND GUIDELINES
Please read the Forum Rules and Guidelines before posting.

IMAGE COPYRIGHT
Images posted on UnmannedSpaceflight.com may be copyrighted. Do not reproduce without permission. Read here for further information on space images and copyright.

OPINIONS AND MODERATION
Opinions expressed on UnmannedSpaceflight.com are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UnmannedSpaceflight.com or The Planetary Society. The all-volunteer UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderation team is wholly independent of The Planetary Society. The Planetary Society has no influence over decisions made by the UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderators.
SUPPORT THE FORUM
Unmannedspaceflight.com is funded by the Planetary Society. Please consider supporting our work and many other projects by donating to the Society or becoming a member.