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Fight for Pluto !, A Campaign to Reverse the Unjust Demotion
mars loon
post Aug 24 2006, 08:24 PM
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Dear Friends,

Today I am extremely dissapointed that the Pluto Demoters have triumphed.

I respect their opinion, but disagree with it.

I strongly agree with Alan Stern's statement calling it "absurd" that only 424 astronomers were allowed to vote, out of some 10,000 professional astronomers around the globe.

This tiny group is clearly not at all representative by mathematics alone.

I believe we should formulate a plan to overturn this unjust decision and return Pluto to full planetary status, and as the first member of a third catagory of planets, Xena being number two. Thus a total of 10 Planets in our Solar System

Please respond if you agree that Pluto should be restored as a planet.

ken

Ken Kremer
Amateur Astronomers Association of Princeton
Program Chairman
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David
post Aug 25 2006, 03:10 AM
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If it had been up to me, personally, to make a decision on the matter, I would probably have minimally dubbed 2003 UB313 a planet, drawn a lower size limit at 2250 km, and left it at that. If I thought the world was ready for a more meaningful set of designations, I would have mandated breaking up the "planet" group into at least three groups, and maybe more, that were to be considered at least as different from each other as they are from asteroids. I would not have taken any criteria into account other than mass and diameter, and although I probably would not have relabeled large satellites as "planets", I would have provided for a parallel set of divisions for satellites.

However, it wasn't up to me, and I have to say that the only thing seriously wrong with the IAU decision is the "neighborhood clearing" language, which is too obscure to even be useful. It's fair to say that some large objects exert a gravitational influence on smaller objects in their surroundings, which if not as continuous as their influence over their satellites, is in some way comparable. We can certainly say that Jupiter's Trojans are in Jupiter's gravitational sphere of influence, and in a different way Pluto is under the influence of Neptune. I doubt that such spheres of influence can be extended to include every single asteroid and KBO, except in the most general sense, in which all the planets (particularly the giants) have non-negligible influence on the orbits of the others (Neptune's perturbations of Uranus' orbit being a famous example). But we don't want to conclude that Jupiter is the only planet in the Solar system -- doubtless for sentimental and unscientific reasons! I am not sure that even a better definition of what is meant by "orbit clearing" is going to clean this up; if we regarded the orbits of all Solar system objects as alike, without regard to the mass of the objects, I doubt that the "major planets" could be easily picked out of the crowd.

Other than this problematic limitation, I am not terribly perturbed by result of the decision; it was one reasonable decision out of many possible reasonable decisions. I don't think it was the wrong decision; but that doesn't mean that I think it was the right one. I think the real mistake here is to suppose that there are absolutely right or wrong decisions on a topic like this; it's certainly not a moral question, and "Pluto is a planet" is not a statement that can be determined to be true or false in the way that "Pluto has a diameter of c. 2300 km" can be. The category of planet doesn't exist in nature; it's a creation of the human mind, and only has meaning relative to what humans want to make of it.

I don't expect this to be the last word on the question; I think that additional information about the nature of the Solar system, while not fundamentally changing the various rationales used by planetarians and antiplanetarians, may well change the emotional relationship people have to the word "planet". I appreciate that people may have strong feelings on either side of the question, but at present I'm happy to let those people engage. The result of the IAU vote reflects, I think, more politics than science; the antiplanetarians were better organized, more unified, and more passionate than the planetarians, and arrived in Prague prepared to win. Now the planetarians have got a Cause of sorts, and they will have three years to organize before they go off to Rio de Janeiro. Perhaps at that time they will be in a better position - and perhaps not. Public reaction -- especially the public consisting of professional and amateur astronomers -- to the decision is likely to play a role. If people cannot be bothered to do anything but laugh at the decision, then it is likely to stick. If it's generally rejected by ordinary people who have an interest in astronomy, then the IAU may merely have discredited itself. It promises to be an interesting time.
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- mars loon   Fight for Pluto !   Aug 24 2006, 08:24 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   I'm in.   Aug 24 2006, 08:37 PM
- - volcanopele   So am I.   Aug 24 2006, 08:48 PM
- - JRehling   QUOTE (mars loon @ Aug 24 2006, 01:24 PM)...   Aug 24 2006, 08:49 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (JRehling @ Aug 24 2006, 08:49 PM) ...   Aug 24 2006, 09:00 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (JRehling @ Aug 24 2006, 08:49 PM) ...   Aug 25 2006, 09:22 AM
|- - Ames   QUOTE (Stephen @ Aug 25 2006, 10:22 AM) Y...   Aug 25 2006, 11:10 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (Ames @ Aug 25 2006, 11:10 AM) Ok t...   Aug 25 2006, 11:50 AM
- - DonPMitchell   I agree, this is an arbitrary ruling by a small su...   Aug 24 2006, 09:05 PM
|- - Planet X   At any rate, I'm in! What if it turns out...   Aug 24 2006, 09:19 PM
||- - mars loon   QUOTE (Planet X @ Aug 24 2006, 09:19 PM) ...   Aug 24 2006, 10:18 PM
|||- - Jyril   QUOTE (mars loon @ Aug 25 2006, 01:18 AM)...   Aug 24 2006, 10:58 PM
||- - tedstryk   This could really get messy if they find a Pluto-t...   Aug 24 2006, 10:20 PM
||- - Alan Stern   Poll at chicagotribune.com... Do you agree with t...   Aug 24 2006, 10:32 PM
||- - Jyril   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Aug 25 2006, 01:32 AM...   Aug 24 2006, 11:03 PM
||- - mars loon   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Aug 24 2006, 10:32 PM...   Aug 24 2006, 11:48 PM
||- - dilo   I fully understand Alan is hungry, but, apart hist...   Aug 25 2006, 08:16 AM
||- - chris   QUOTE (dilo @ Aug 25 2006, 09:16 AM) I fu...   Aug 25 2006, 08:35 AM
|||- - dilo   QUOTE (chris @ Aug 25 2006, 09:35 AM) Did...   Aug 25 2006, 10:00 AM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (dilo @ Aug 25 2006, 09:16 AM) NEO ...   Aug 25 2006, 08:49 AM
||- - JRehling   QUOTE (dilo @ Aug 25 2006, 01:16 AM) I fu...   Aug 25 2006, 03:32 PM
||- - David   QUOTE (JRehling @ Aug 25 2006, 03:32 PM) ...   Aug 25 2006, 03:58 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Aug 24 2006, 09:05 ...   Aug 24 2006, 09:44 PM
- - Jyril   If you don't like Pluto's demotion, consid...   Aug 24 2006, 09:10 PM
- - Decepticon   I for one cheered when I heard the news! I su...   Aug 25 2006, 12:30 AM
- - David   If it had been up to me, personally, to make a dec...   Aug 25 2006, 03:10 AM
- - alan   I would have been happy with either of the possibi...   Aug 25 2006, 03:28 AM
- - Myran   Science isnt something that you can start a politi...   Aug 25 2006, 03:42 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Myran @ Aug 25 2006, 03:42 AM) Sci...   Aug 25 2006, 04:18 AM
- - Betelgeuze   Im in! I dont mind if Pluto is a dwarf planet...   Aug 25 2006, 05:09 AM
|- - JRehling   C - ommittee to R - einstate A - stronomy's P ...   Aug 25 2006, 05:45 AM
- - djellison   The classification of Pluto as non-planetary doesn...   Aug 25 2006, 08:11 AM
- - djellison   Truth be told - I think we should be fighting for ...   Aug 25 2006, 10:12 AM
|- - Jyril   QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 25 2006, 01:12 PM)...   Aug 25 2006, 12:00 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Jyril @ Aug 25 2006, 01:00 PM) Acc...   Aug 25 2006, 12:11 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (Jyril @ Aug 25 2006, 12:00 PM) The...   Aug 25 2006, 12:26 PM
- - Patteroast   The two results I was hoping for were either a def...   Aug 25 2006, 11:09 AM
- - Stephen   Too many of the elements in the IAU's definiti...   Aug 25 2006, 11:23 AM
|- - dilo   advice: this post is OT here! sorry for this.....   Aug 25 2006, 08:26 PM
- - Jyril   I have no problems with the "orbital dominanc...   Aug 25 2006, 12:28 PM
- - odave   Jupiter: "Dangit, I was just about to become...   Aug 25 2006, 04:00 PM
- - David   Radicalized pro-Plutonians may find this site amus...   Aug 26 2006, 05:15 PM
|- - mars loon   QUOTE (David @ Aug 26 2006, 05:15 PM) Rad...   Aug 26 2006, 08:50 PM
|- - volcanopele   QUOTE (David @ Aug 26 2006, 10:15 AM) Rad...   Aug 26 2006, 09:44 PM
|- - vexgizmo   QUOTE (David @ Aug 26 2006, 10:15 AM) Rad...   Aug 29 2006, 05:53 AM
|- - karolp   QUOTE (vexgizmo @ Aug 29 2006, 07:53 AM) ...   Aug 30 2006, 01:46 PM
|- - mars loon   QUOTE (karolp @ Aug 30 2006, 01:46 PM) Th...   Sep 2 2006, 01:42 PM
|- - karolp   If I were a US scientist I would put forward a pet...   Sep 2 2006, 02:40 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (mars loon @ Sep 2 2006, 01:42 PM) ...   Sep 13 2006, 09:45 PM
- - marsman   Here is a news article from CNN about an actual pr...   Sep 2 2006, 04:21 PM
- - volcanopele   Even the California Legislature is now weighing in...   Sep 7 2006, 08:12 PM
- - odave   Now that is an excellent example of government in ...   Sep 8 2006, 12:17 PM
- - Greg Hullender   volcanopele: Aren't you worried that it suppor...   Sep 9 2006, 04:05 AM
- - DonPMitchell   The last issue of Nature has an article about the ...   Sep 9 2006, 05:15 AM
|- - gpurcell   Absolutely, it was a political hatchet job from st...   Sep 13 2006, 06:58 AM
- - Sedna   Even when discovered, it was doubted that Pluto wa...   Sep 14 2006, 10:48 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Sedna @ Sep 14 2006, 03:48 PM) Eve...   Sep 15 2006, 04:41 AM
|- - Rob Pinnegar   QUOTE (JRehling @ Sep 14 2006, 10:41 PM) ...   Sep 15 2006, 06:00 AM
|- - dilo   QUOTE (JRehling @ Sep 15 2006, 04:41 AM) ...   Sep 15 2006, 09:22 AM
|- - ngunn   Nice diagram, but what is the object that appears ...   Sep 15 2006, 10:28 AM
|- - dilo   QUOTE (ngunn @ Sep 15 2006, 10:28 AM) Nic...   Sep 15 2006, 11:20 AM
|- - ljk4-1   What is really amazing is that - as far as 2000 OO...   Sep 15 2006, 01:44 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (dilo @ Sep 15 2006, 12:20 PM) Good...   Sep 15 2006, 02:18 PM
|- - dilo   I have same suspect, ngunn... considerng also the ...   Sep 17 2006, 03:59 PM
- - Jyril   Based on various comments on blogs and such, I got...   Sep 14 2006, 11:21 PM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (Jyril @ Sep 14 2006, 06:21 PM) But...   Sep 15 2006, 02:05 AM
- - laurele   [font=Times New Roman][size=4] I strongly object ...   Sep 26 2006, 09:25 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 26 2006, 10:25 PM) t...   Sep 26 2006, 09:36 PM
|- - laurele   QUOTE (ugordan @ Sep 26 2006, 05:36 PM) I...   Sep 26 2006, 09:53 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 26 2006, 10:53 PM) I...   Sep 26 2006, 09:55 PM
|- - laurele   QUOTE (ugordan @ Sep 26 2006, 05:55 PM) T...   Sep 27 2006, 04:12 AM
|- - ugordan   The way I see it you're pushing for a petition...   Sep 27 2006, 06:58 AM
|- - laurele   I did not create this petition, and I am not pushi...   Sep 27 2006, 03:47 PM
||- - Kevin Heider   QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 27 2006, 08:47 AM) I...   Sep 27 2006, 07:09 PM
||- - laurele   [quote name='Kevin Heider' post='70120...   Sep 27 2006, 07:29 PM
||- - Kevin Heider   laurele: Why can't there be a subcategory of p...   Sep 27 2006, 10:19 PM
||- - laurele   If we find only one object (as large as Mars) in t...   Sep 29 2006, 11:19 PM
|- - Sedna   QUOTE (ugordan @ Sep 27 2006, 08:58 AM) T...   Sep 29 2006, 11:53 PM
|- - laurele   QUOTE (Sedna @ Sep 29 2006, 07:53 PM) Goo...   Sep 30 2006, 12:40 AM
|- - Sedna   QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 30 2006, 02:40 AM) I...   Sep 30 2006, 01:16 AM
|- - laurele   So do I, as a minor planet or such maybe... The au...   Sep 30 2006, 05:00 AM
|- - Sedna   QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 30 2006, 07:00 AM) T...   Oct 1 2006, 02:19 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Sedna @ Sep 30 2006, 07:19 PM) A s...   Oct 1 2006, 05:04 AM
- - Sedna   Teens and children here, Spain, are fortunately be...   Sep 26 2006, 09:37 PM
- - djellison   This thread is getting overly heated ( as it was o...   Oct 1 2006, 07:20 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Since Mike Brown, discoverer of the erstwhile ...   Oct 1 2006, 08:29 PM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Oct 1 2006, 08:29...   Oct 1 2006, 08:57 PM
|- - Kevin Heider   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Oct 1 2006, 01:57 PM)...   Oct 3 2006, 08:51 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Thanks Alan. That was great! (Except for the...   Oct 2 2006, 05:37 AM
|- - MahFL   Well I still think of Pluto as a planet, small, co...   Oct 2 2006, 11:12 AM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Oct 2 2006, 05:37...   Oct 2 2006, 11:53 AM
|- - SFJCody   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Oct 2 2006, 12:53 PM)...   Oct 2 2006, 02:09 PM
- - Greg Hullender   What is the boundary on the ability of a planet to...   Oct 2 2006, 02:23 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Oct 2 2006, 07:23...   Oct 2 2006, 09:08 PM
|- - Kevin Heider   What would happen if we took Jupiter (as it is tod...   Oct 2 2006, 09:12 PM
|- - Bart   QUOTE (Kevin Heider @ Oct 2 2006, 02:12 P...   Oct 3 2006, 12:11 AM
- - Superstring   QUOTE Heider: Mars in orbit around Jupiter. Titan ...   Oct 3 2006, 02:17 PM
- - JRehling   To one and (almost) all: This planet definition i...   Oct 3 2006, 03:24 PM
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