IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

High-Temp Electronics For Venus Exploration, recent advances
dtolman
post Mar 13 2013, 03:36 PM
Post #1


Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 124
Joined: 20-April 05
Member No.: 291



(MOD NOTE: Started a new topic for this discussion to continue. Please remember the 'no sci-fi engineering' provision of rule 1.9. Have fun!)


Also, since I'm thinking about surface operations on Venus, the state-of-the-art in high temperature electronics has advanced quite far in the past decade.
Its now possible to buy off the shelf chips from vendors designed to operate at the 250-300 C range.

Meanwhile basic functionality has been tested at and beyond the temperatures needed for long-term surface operations on Venus:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/SiC/
http://www.gizmag.com/extreme-silicon-carb...ctronics/16410/
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/SiC/publicatio...Contact2010.pdf

Another decade or so and a long-term Venus lander could be possible with (practically) off the shelf electronics!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
hendric
post Feb 8 2017, 08:19 PM
Post #2


Director of Galilean Photography
***

Group: Members
Posts: 896
Joined: 15-July 04
From: Austin, TX
Member No.: 93



https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/venus-computer-chip/

An oscillator is a very important step in creating a full Silicon Carbide based CPU capable of operating a Venus temperatures. 1 MHz doesn't sound like much, but it is more than enough for basic analysis. The hard thing to get working is an imager - high temps mean leaky pixels. This is yet another great example of NASA dual use, with this tech being very useful for deep well operation.


--------------------
Space Enthusiast Richard Hendricks
--
"The engineers, as usual, made a tremendous fuss. Again as usual, they did the job in half the time they had dismissed as being absolutely impossible." --Rescue Party, Arthur C Clarke
Mother Nature is the final inspector of all quality.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JRehling
post Feb 9 2017, 09:28 PM
Post #3


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 2530
Joined: 20-April 05
Member No.: 321



QUOTE (hendric @ Feb 8 2017, 01:19 PM) *
The hard thing to get working is an imager - high temps mean leaky pixels.


It may be interesting for those who don't know – cameras used for amateur photography of Deep Sky Objects are cooled internally, reducing the incidence of such noise. A galaxy or nebula may be roughly 1/100,000th as luminous as a planet, and cooling the camera to, say, -15C when outside temperatures are +15C can help tremendously in producing a clear image, whereas this is not needed for imaging planets.

On the surface of Venus, the luminosity isn't a problem, but the temperature is. On the other hand, another solution to this problem would be to provide passive or active cooling for just long enough to take one image, then let the camera die. Potentially, almost all of the science value would be in taking a single image as soon as possible after landing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
algorimancer
post Feb 10 2017, 07:23 PM
Post #4


Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 656
Joined: 20-April 05
From: League City, Texas
Member No.: 285



QUOTE (JRehling @ Feb 9 2017, 03:28 PM) *
...provide passive or active cooling for just long enough to take one image, then let the camera die....

So long as the ccd-equivalent sensor doesn't degrade with the heat, active per-image cooling strikes me as feasible. I'd really like to see a rover, rather than just a fixed lander, so multiple images are important. Alternatively, I could envision something like polaroid instant film, a ccd-equivalent on something like a roll, where we get one shot per sensor, read and transmit the image, then roll to the next good sensor.

One problem (aside from heat tolerance) with current sensors is that they have a strong response in the infrared. Not such a good thing on Venus.

Has there been any progress on high-temperature imaging sensors?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- dtolman   High-Temp Electronics For Venus Exploration   Mar 13 2013, 03:36 PM
- - tasp   Having electronics operate at a higher temperature...   Mar 13 2013, 05:50 PM
|- - Robotbeat   Of course, if you can operate at 500C, you don...   Mar 25 2013, 04:30 PM
|- - hendric   QUOTE (Robotbeat @ Mar 25 2013, 10:30 AM)...   Mar 25 2013, 05:02 PM
- - stevesliva   In addition to high-temp industrial applications, ...   Mar 25 2013, 06:51 PM
- - nprev   Silly question: How are they doing surface-mount b...   Mar 26 2013, 12:24 AM
|- - ElkGroveDan   QUOTE (nprev @ Mar 25 2013, 04:24 PM) Sil...   Mar 27 2013, 12:19 AM
- - siravan   I wonder about sources of power. Is there any high...   Mar 27 2013, 12:14 AM
- - nprev   I'm officially your distant relative now, Dan,...   Mar 27 2013, 03:24 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (nprev @ Mar 26 2013, 08:24 PM) The...   Mar 27 2013, 03:39 AM
|- - ElkGroveDan   QUOTE (nprev @ Mar 26 2013, 07:24 PM) Ser...   Mar 27 2013, 01:24 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Mar 27 2013, 06:24 A...   Mar 27 2013, 02:41 PM
- - Explorer1   If one is willing to constrain the landing site by...   Mar 27 2013, 03:44 AM
- - siravan   One small thing in favor of high temperature elect...   Mar 27 2013, 03:15 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (siravan @ Mar 27 2013, 08:15 AM) Y...   Mar 27 2013, 04:20 PM
- - siravan   Agree. I didn't think of it from this aspect. ...   Mar 27 2013, 05:16 PM
- - Robotbeat   I've found a microcontroller that's suppos...   Apr 5 2013, 05:56 PM
- - stone   All the ideas are very strange, but NASA Glenn Res...   Apr 8 2013, 06:34 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (stone @ Apr 7 2013, 11:34 PM) A la...   Apr 8 2013, 01:32 PM
|- - Robotbeat   QUOTE (djellison @ Apr 8 2013, 07:32 AM) ...   Apr 8 2013, 04:30 PM
- - dtolman   The Solder question is very interesting. Looking i...   Apr 8 2013, 03:00 PM
- - stevesliva   Flash Memory would be vital-- avoids mechanical st...   Apr 8 2013, 03:56 PM
- - tasp   Don't know specifically about vacuum tube came...   Apr 8 2013, 05:43 PM
- - centsworth_II   Why is everyone talking about cameras on Venus lik...   Apr 8 2013, 05:53 PM
- - Gsnorgathon   I'm guessing folks are thinking of design for ...   Apr 8 2013, 06:05 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   No roving. Probably very little change in local w...   Apr 8 2013, 08:42 PM
- - siravan   I think it is unreasonable to expect a full fledge...   Apr 8 2013, 10:38 PM
|- - DFinfrock   QUOTE (siravan @ Apr 8 2013, 10:38 PM) Th...   Apr 9 2013, 03:00 AM
|- - stevesliva   QUOTE (siravan @ Apr 8 2013, 05:38 PM) I ...   Apr 9 2013, 05:42 AM
- - tasp   For instance, the longer the camera lasts, the lon...   Apr 9 2013, 02:44 AM
- - tasp   The rotation period for Venus is sooo long . . . ...   Apr 9 2013, 04:00 AM
- - tasp   However, there are alternatives. For folks with S...   Apr 9 2013, 04:05 AM
- - siravan   Making an IC is the difficult part. It is not clea...   Apr 9 2013, 11:51 AM
|- - dtolman   They've already started making Silicon Carbide...   Apr 9 2013, 02:07 PM
|- - stevesliva   QUOTE (siravan @ Apr 9 2013, 06:51 AM) I...   Apr 9 2013, 04:56 PM
- - Robotbeat   The big problem, I am told, is memory. We can prob...   Jun 11 2013, 12:51 PM
|- - JRehling   I wonder if a "two-brain" strategy might...   Jun 11 2013, 04:50 PM
||- - Robotbeat   Indeed, I had thought of such an approach. It make...   Jun 12 2013, 05:13 PM
|- - stevesliva   QUOTE (Robotbeat @ Jun 11 2013, 08:51 AM)...   Jun 13 2013, 05:37 AM
|- - Robotbeat   QUOTE (stevesliva @ Jun 12 2013, 11:37 PM...   Jun 13 2013, 12:56 PM
|- - stevesliva   QUOTE (Robotbeat @ Jun 13 2013, 08:56 AM)...   Jun 13 2013, 09:24 PM
- - tasp   I'm wondering if something like a corner refle...   Jun 13 2013, 05:48 AM
- - Robotbeat   Power draw is a huge issue, because you can't ...   Jun 17 2013, 01:12 PM
|- - dtolman   Doesn't seem to me that high temperature memor...   Jun 17 2013, 09:13 PM
|- - Robotbeat   QUOTE (dtolman @ Jun 17 2013, 03:13 PM) D...   Jun 18 2013, 12:18 PM
|- - Robotbeat   QUOTE (dtolman @ Jun 17 2013, 03:13 PM) ....   Jun 18 2013, 07:22 PM
- - dtolman   I think you're being pessimistic. The state of...   Jun 18 2013, 02:30 PM
|- - Robotbeat   QUOTE (dtolman @ Jun 18 2013, 08:30 AM) ....   Jun 18 2013, 03:36 PM
|- - dtolman   Its a good thing that Ishtar Terra has temperature...   Jun 18 2013, 06:36 PM
- - stevesliva   ^ Yeah, JFETs don't need that gate insulator. ...   Jun 19 2013, 06:08 AM
- - dtolman   Sorry to keep shining rays of optimism here, but c...   Jun 19 2013, 02:49 PM
|- - Robotbeat   dtolman: Ah, behold the motivating power of provin...   Jun 19 2013, 02:57 PM
|- - Robotbeat   QUOTE (Robotbeat @ Jun 19 2013, 08:57 AM)...   Jun 25 2013, 12:25 PM
- - Bill Harris   I'd suspect that the solution will come from t...   Jun 21 2013, 07:00 PM
- - tasp   Thanx Robotbeat for mentioning the power consumpti...   Jun 25 2013, 03:27 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (tasp @ Jun 25 2013, 07:27 AM) The ...   Jun 25 2013, 04:11 PM
- - SpaceListener   If the chamber where it is stored electrical instr...   Jun 25 2013, 08:48 PM
|- - dtolman   If you can get electronics running at ambient, jus...   Jun 26 2013, 03:45 PM
|- - siravan   QUOTE Now we just need high temperature, acid rain...   Jun 26 2013, 05:59 PM
|- - Robotbeat   QUOTE (dtolman @ Jun 26 2013, 10:45 AM) I...   Jun 26 2013, 09:09 PM
|- - dtolman   Thinking about it, perhaps if the goal is electron...   Jun 27 2013, 05:14 PM
|- - Robotbeat   QUOTE (dtolman @ Jun 27 2013, 12:14 PM) T...   Jun 29 2013, 06:15 AM
|- - Xcalibrator   QUOTE A RFI http://go.usa.gov/jtdJ has been issued...   Sep 9 2013, 02:31 PM
|- - dtolman   So when can we find out what the result was for th...   Nov 15 2013, 05:01 PM
- - dtolman   Just 3 months later a series of new 260 C rated ca...   Feb 4 2014, 02:25 AM
- - stevesliva   GE and New York State are moving from 100mm to 150...   Jul 18 2014, 10:52 PM
- - dtolman   Its been a while, but there continues to be a stea...   Jan 9 2015, 03:02 AM
- - elakdawalla   That's cool. Asking in near-perfect ignorance:...   Jan 9 2015, 04:44 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Jan 9 2015, 09:44 AM...   Jan 9 2015, 06:25 PM
- - marsbug   A grant has been made to the university of Arkensa...   May 5 2015, 03:14 PM
- - dtolman   A few items of interest: Another new 250C tested c...   May 11 2015, 08:16 PM
- - hendric   Very interesting stuff, can't wait to see a ro...   May 12 2015, 08:14 PM
- - JohnVV   new(ish) carbon nanotube ram chips that can withs...   Jun 3 2015, 03:30 AM
|- - dtolman   NASA has awarded a small grant to a University of ...   Aug 1 2015, 01:37 AM
- - nprev   Pop-sci article on Venus electronics & applica...   Aug 15 2015, 04:06 PM
- - hendric   Wow, an imager running at 600*F? Even if UV only ...   Aug 17 2015, 08:30 PM
- - Habukaz   Meta-news: QUOTE Inside the 14-ton, stainless ste...   Sep 3 2015, 09:39 PM
- - colin_wilson   Swedish tech lab KTH is working to develop high-te...   Jun 16 2016, 09:56 AM
- - Explorer1   Interesting article I found today: a Sterling engi...   Jul 6 2016, 06:21 PM
|- - Xcalibrator   ROSES-16 Amendment 25 releases the new program ele...   Aug 23 2016, 02:55 PM
- - hendric   https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/venus-comp...   Feb 8 2017, 08:19 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (hendric @ Feb 8 2017, 01:19 PM) Th...   Feb 9 2017, 09:28 PM
|- - algorimancer   QUOTE (JRehling @ Feb 9 2017, 03:28 PM) ....   Feb 10 2017, 07:23 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (algorimancer @ Feb 10 2017, 11:23 ...   Feb 13 2017, 06:11 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   If you're using a cooled and sealed environmen...   Feb 10 2017, 07:33 PM
- - hendric   Dr Neudeck kindly forwarded me a concept study for...   Feb 13 2017, 05:33 PM
- - algorimancer   It sounds like we might be able to contemplate a d...   Feb 14 2017, 04:37 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   Did anybody notice that the SiC imaging chip in qu...   Feb 14 2017, 05:12 PM
- - hendric   That's not the way I interpreted the specifica...   Feb 14 2017, 06:17 PM
- - siravan   The Science journal has a new article about the re...   Dec 5 2017, 12:36 PM
|- - JRehling   The topic is a bit timely, with Mars Insight launc...   Dec 5 2017, 04:12 PM
- - Gerald   In order to investigate possible ongoing volcanism...   Dec 5 2017, 07:12 PM
|- - JRehling   Long-term monitoring of atmospheric composition wo...   Dec 7 2017, 04:48 PM
|- - JRehling   Over two years old now, a proposed Venus surface m...   Nov 18 2020, 08:23 PM
- - nprev   This general topic seems to be...heating up (yeah,...   May 1 2021, 12:35 AM


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 02:33 PM
RULES AND GUIDELINES
Please read the Forum Rules and Guidelines before posting.

IMAGE COPYRIGHT
Images posted on UnmannedSpaceflight.com may be copyrighted. Do not reproduce without permission. Read here for further information on space images and copyright.

OPINIONS AND MODERATION
Opinions expressed on UnmannedSpaceflight.com are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UnmannedSpaceflight.com or The Planetary Society. The all-volunteer UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderation team is wholly independent of The Planetary Society. The Planetary Society has no influence over decisions made by the UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderators.
SUPPORT THE FORUM
Unmannedspaceflight.com is funded by the Planetary Society. Please consider supporting our work and many other projects by donating to the Society or becoming a member.