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Posted by: Astro0 Aug 25 2008, 11:46 AM

Here is a special poster to mark the occasion of the Phoenix Lander achieving 90 Sols.

A full resolution version is available http://www.speedyshare.com/381587337.html.
A half size version is available http://www.speedyshare.com/768152376.html.

Enjoy
Astro0

Posted by: djellison Aug 25 2008, 06:01 PM

New mission phase, new UMSF logo ( Thanks Astro0 ! )

Doug

Posted by: SpaceListener Aug 25 2008, 08:10 PM

How long was its recent mission extension? By that moment, the snow has started to appear above of coldest places.

Posted by: JTN Aug 25 2008, 11:02 PM

Another month and a bit -- http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/07_31_pr.php.

Posted by: nprev Aug 26 2008, 02:14 AM

The new banner rules! Well done indeed, Astro0!:)

(Good to be back...one week of hellish moving almost finally done...lots of catching up to do!)

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 26 2008, 04:27 AM

Maybe it is just because I haven't tried to create such a logo, but I suspect I never would have designed one as artful as that. Nice work, Asto0. Not only is the logo clever, but the entire poster captures the theme. Outstanding!

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 26 2008, 05:14 AM

It's not entirely obvious to me why the sol 65 thread was closed, but I'll assume it is time to move discussions to the extended mission thread. The following quote is from the previous thread. If I've misplaced this comment, hopefully the mods will move it.

That was a pretty interesting story, and a nice summary of the work done so far. I can't help but wonder if perhaps this ClO₄^- story has really surprised the Phoenix team at this late date in the mission. Has the robotic arm delivered enough samples from enough locations to the various instruments to define the extent of the perchlorate ions, and if indeed there are any perchlorate concentration gradients?

It sounds like a tricky wicket to me, so lately in the game.

Posted by: Stu Aug 26 2008, 06:52 AM

There is a trio of Sol 90 "low sun" images - taken at 00.50, 00.51 and 00.56 - that make a nice animation...

By the way, new poem - "http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/TheVerse/entries/2008/08/26/first-frost/823" - now up on my poetry blog, if anyone wants a look...

Posted by: slinted Aug 26 2008, 11:03 AM

Here's a view of the bright spots in Snow White and Burn Alive, from sol 89
http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/processed/SS089EFF904124301_1A6F6L1.jpg
http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/processed/SS089EFF904124301_1A6F6L1.jpg

Posted by: Tman Aug 26 2008, 09:15 PM

The lowest sun elevation is now about 0.7 degrees, but it already fully set behind the slight rise to the north for about half an hour. However today there's already a very nice picture of the half-sun:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/Sol_090_sunrise.html

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Aug 26 2008, 09:19 PM

Bye-bye

Posted by: djellison Aug 26 2008, 09:28 PM

Mars24 says that Sol 98 is the first day with an actual sun-set - so we get a funky week of partial sunsets

Posted by: dot.dk Aug 26 2008, 09:56 PM

Any official information about how long Phoenix will stay power positive and be able to work?

Posted by: Reckless Aug 26 2008, 10:25 PM

At work the new banner is up but here at home same old banner any ideas?
Roy

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Aug 26 2008, 10:27 PM

Clear your cache.

Posted by: jmjawors Aug 26 2008, 10:31 PM

Or just force refresh (shift+refresh button).

Posted by: Reckless Aug 26 2008, 10:35 PM

Thank you Elkgrovedan and Matt, my cache is now clear and new banner is nicely in place also thank you Asto0 for the poster and via Doug for the banner
Roy

Posted by: 1101001 Aug 27 2008, 02:00 AM

Look who got mentioned in a http://twitter.com/marsphoenix.

Posted by: climber Aug 27 2008, 06:57 AM

Will the sharpness of the SSI enough to show some details on the horizon (if any) ?

Posted by: peter59 Aug 27 2008, 10:03 AM

Mark Lemmon's Phoenix SSI raw images directory:
Sol 091: Hold sample (restricted sols). Remote sensing and continued Stone Soup documentation.
Sol 092: Drop sample. Load plate test; sunrise & remote sensing

Drop sample, but where ?

Posted by: 1101001 Aug 27 2008, 12:51 PM

That would be the Golden Goose sample from Stone Soup trench, going to the third of four MECA Wet Chemistry Labs.

Posted by: JRehling Aug 27 2008, 01:36 PM

It sounds like Stone Soup is relatively ice free and that it wouldn't take long, therefore, for any ice in the sample to sublimate away.

I've got to say, the feeling of tense urgency I had about getting an actual ice sample into TEGA before the end of the mission is verging on resignation that it's not going to happen. I would trade a million sunset photos for completion of the half-dozen things that Phoenix actually went to Mars to do.

Posted by: centsworth_II Aug 27 2008, 02:08 PM

That sample is going into MECA, so they are not looking for an ice sample.

As far as getting an ice sample into TEGA goes, I am sure that no one wants to do that more than the mission scientists. I wonder how their plans to do that are coming along? There may only be one more oven that opens fully (unless, hopefully, all the ovens on the side of #0 open well). I was a little surprised to see them use oven 7 (perhaps the next-to-last fully opening oven) for an ice-free sample.

Posted by: stevesliva Aug 27 2008, 06:31 PM

Long shadows may actually help them in the quest to get an icy sample. They were speculating that sunlight made the adhesion to the scoop worse.

Posted by: 3488 Aug 27 2008, 07:36 PM

AFAIK, the sunlight DID make the regolith clumpiness worse. The idea is that the ice softend in the sun & caused it to stick together. Aslo the scoop is dark, absorbing solar energy, warming it up slightly, thus making the ice rich regolith contained within to clump, as the ice rehardened.

The idea f perhaps scooping some samples in the half light of the polar midnight twilight (as the sun will be setting 'properly' from this Saturday onwards) sounds much better.

Delivering ice rich samples to TEGA should be easier as it should be more of a fine granular mix, rather than the stodgy stuff that has proven so difficult to load.

The minus side of course, with proper night time arriving, well deep twilight (even on Sol 124 the final sol of the current extension, the Sun will only dip to just over four degrees below the horizon at midnight), power will become a big issue.

Will each active period every Sol have to be reduced in duration to allow more time for recharging batteries?

Andrew Brown.

Posted by: Tman Aug 27 2008, 09:59 PM

Is there an official Phoenix (horizon) mosaic that has included degrees details of the orientation? Didn't find any so far. But they are orientated each with a particular main-direction.

I've tried to find the spot of the sunrise on sol 90. According to Mars24 the elevation was 1.3° and azimuth 11.8°. I used not the full res. mosaic, so I had to resize the sunrise image to find a match at the calculated position (based on the fact of where I fit North in the image).

Here my guess: (1.3MB) http://www.greuti.ch/phoenix/sunrisepano_sm_17106.jpg

Posted by: 1101001 Aug 27 2008, 11:38 PM

Way back in the http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=254:



Not that imaging takes so very much power -- as compared to the likes of TEGA baking or arm digging -- but maybe imaging is part of a general curtailment of nighttime activites.

Posted by: hortonheardawho Aug 28 2008, 02:12 AM

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/2804073107/

Posted by: Stu Aug 28 2008, 05:43 AM

Couldn't resist animating this sequence...

Posted by: Tman Aug 28 2008, 10:12 AM

Managed to download the 60MB fullres of PeterPan.

860KB http://www.greuti.ch/phoenix/sunrise90.gif

Btw. http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_24930.jpg was used for the sunrise image.


Edited

Posted by: Tman Aug 28 2008, 02:56 PM

The azimuth data of the sol 90 sunrise images are a bit odd:

lg_24930 50:52 elevation 5.03164 degrees and azimuth 13.2373 degrees
lg_24931 51:45 elevation 5.03367 degrees and azimuth 13.2360 degrees
lg_24932 56:50 elevation 5.03470 degrees and azimuth 13.2369 degrees

What's the exact meaning of "The camera pointing was..."? Does this correspond to the actual elevation (notional horizon) and azimuth degrees seen from the same point as the camera?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Aug 28 2008, 03:28 PM

... or the azimuth and elevation in the lander's coordinate system?

Phil

Posted by: Tman Aug 28 2008, 03:42 PM

If it is the azimuth and elevation in the lander coordinate system (pointing means the center of the image probably), is then the Mars24 solar elevation of 1.3° and azimuth 11.8° definitely correct?

Posted by: elakdawalla Aug 28 2008, 07:02 PM

I'm making a new map of the work volume with James' sol 84 pan as a base. Here's the names I've come up with so far. Is there a name for the dump piles at the top of Snow White? Are there any other names that should be on this map?

--Emily

Posted by: Aussie Aug 29 2008, 09:20 AM

Hmmm. I appreciate that the journalistic hype over perchlorates probably upset the applecart. But really, at least the old television stations had the courtesy to put up program interruption signs. I guess NASA and Artizona St U have decided to emulate the ESA.

Posted by: MahFL Aug 29 2008, 11:03 AM

My nickname at school was Ichabod, I was skinny and brainy, lol. I am now not skinny and for the brains, well you know how age affects those, and beer.....

Posted by: Tman Aug 29 2008, 12:39 PM

Sometimes you really feel older

Posted by: ConyHigh Aug 29 2008, 06:16 PM

Arizona State?? You just stepped into it, Oz.

Posted by: 1101001 Aug 29 2008, 07:50 PM

JPL Phoenix Mission News: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1843 (August 29)

Posted by: climber Aug 29 2008, 08:07 PM

however data has shown that the gas flow has been erratic

"Something" must be breezing inside

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 30 2008, 06:21 AM

Em: I really appreciate your awesome work volume maps. I have no help with names for those http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=define%3Atailings piles.
What I would really like to see on such maps is an outline of the polygon boundaries in the area. Are there not any within reach of the robotic arm?

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 30 2008, 06:36 AM

I just had to say, "Sometimes you really are older."

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 31 2008, 05:11 AM

Duh! I forgot that some of our members had posted several polar pans. http://www.nivnac.co.uk/mer/index.php/polar_peter_pan is one of them. Should we call it the P⁴ pan? If anyone can do it, I think a vertical projection of the imagery would be helpful.

As best as I can tell, all of the trenches so far have been within this polygon, and some of the local polygon's boundaries are barely within reach of the robotic arm. Can we dig into a polygon boundary, or not?

I'm commenting from my RV in Lufkin, Tx, as we evacuate the gulf coast ahead of hurricane Gustav. I am hoping to avoid the storm and swing back behind it, as it comes ashore. Wish us luck.

Posted by: 1101001 Aug 31 2008, 05:49 AM

http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001623/

Posted by: Stu Aug 31 2008, 06:45 AM

Take care, CR, and any other UMSF members or lurkers in the path of the storm.

Posted by: peter59 Aug 31 2008, 07:10 AM

Change of weather ?

Onset wind - sol 94

and strong cloudiness - sol 95

Posted by: peter59 Aug 31 2008, 07:53 AM

1B02-3: Ice SHorizon Movie (Sol 94)

sample

http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/094.html

Posted by: Aussie Aug 31 2008, 08:03 AM

Is this clouds, or a continuation of the N Polar dust activity mentioned here?
http://www.msss.com/msss_images/2008/08/27/index.html

Posted by: Stu Aug 31 2008, 08:27 AM

Here you go... LOVE this sequence...!!

Posted by: James Sorenson Aug 31 2008, 09:34 AM

Sol-94 Telltale animation's .

This is one of my favorite sofar of the telltale, showing background clouds in the field of view.

Posted by: Stu Aug 31 2008, 10:05 AM

Another offering for (cue Sky Sports presenter voice) Phoenix Animation Super Sunday!!!!

http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/08/31/rolling-sun-2

Posted by: jekbradbury Aug 31 2008, 02:39 PM

I posted a vertical projection of James's Peter Pan a while back:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=5259&view=findpost&p=121289

Posted by: Tman Aug 31 2008, 05:12 PM

Wow! Hoped for such an image row.

Autumn-like weather on Phoenix site?!
Have worked on that very nice sol94 cloud movie:

Posted by: Doc Aug 31 2008, 06:05 PM

Cool movies......

From the looks of it these clouds are heading to the north (the SSI was pointed towards the south horizon).

And the winds seem to be picking up too (is this another sign of the weather changing?) ..... martian Gustav hurricane perhaps?

Posted by: Stu Aug 31 2008, 06:07 PM

Great job, Tman. Much cleaner than my 'dirty' version

Posted by: Tman Aug 31 2008, 06:51 PM

Thanks Stu

To cut a long story short: In consideration of raw images and probably also some small deformations in that huge mosaic, in PhotoShop, I took the given elev. and azimuth of that sunrise image lg_24930 (el. 5.03164 / az. 13.2373 / FOV 13.8x13.8) and get el. 1.27 and az. 11.87 degrees for the sun in the Peter Pan full res. mosaic. Additionally I made a test with two raw images at az. 280 and 154 degrees and get a dislocation in the azimuth of about 0.1 and 0.5 degrees.

Posted by: Oersted Aug 31 2008, 09:33 PM

Oh, wonderful!

I wonder if the team ever considered that the tell-tale imagery could also capture clouds moving in the background, so a relationship between those macro-movements and the tell-tale micro-movements could be inferred?

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 1 2008, 04:49 AM

Thanks, 1101001. Somehow, I had managed to miss that information.
jekbradbury: I saw your projection when you originally posted it, but apparently I forgot about that. Is there some way we
could get a higher resolution version of that vertical projection?

Yep, James Sorenson, Oersted, and peter59. The rushing clouds behind the swinging telltale really brings Mars home for me.

edited to add an attribution I had missed...

Posted by: James Sorenson Sep 1 2008, 05:24 AM

Nice animation Tman .


http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=26090&cID=264
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=26091&cID=264

Posted by: jekbradbury Sep 1 2008, 10:17 PM

http://www.filedropper.com/peterpanverticalfull4000zoomed is a 4Kx4K version of the same image.

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 1 2008, 10:26 PM

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1848 (September 1)

About the Stone Soup sample to MECA WCL and the clouds.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 2 2008, 02:43 AM

Many thanks, jekbradbury. That's glorious.

Posted by: jmknapp Sep 2 2008, 11:02 AM

Presumably the current MECA sample from Stone Soup will show if the perchlorate concentrates at deeper levels. Yum, soup from strong oxidizer concentrate.

Has any estimate of the concentration of perchlorate in the previous samples been offered?

Posted by: Ant103 Sep 2 2008, 03:35 PM

Stone soup at Sol 96 :
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/stonesoup-sol96.jpg

And TEGA view with oven#1 partially open (one of the door is not deploy).
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/tega-four1semiouvert-sol96.jpg

Posted by: hortonheardawho Sep 4 2008, 02:58 AM

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/2826352588/

LB ( Uv ) and RB ( green ) frames were registered and used to create a synthetic color image. No attempt has been made to white balance the images.

Posted by: Tman Sep 4 2008, 05:03 PM

Nice animation Horton!

Hardly to say whether the 3D effect works in cross eyes. Too little topology:

http://www.greuti.ch/phoenix/sol98stereoclouds.gif

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 4 2008, 11:46 PM

TECP: It's dry. Really really dry.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1853 (September 4)

More there.

Posted by: Stu Sep 5 2008, 11:17 AM

Phoenix sure is busy up there...

(Sol 99 view of Dodo-Goldilocks trench... mess... post-sample...)

Posted by: gallen_53 Sep 5 2008, 04:38 PM

We know that one of the most common minerals on the surface of Mars is olivine. Olivine rapidly decomposes in the presence of liquid water. Extreme dryness of the regolith is consistent with the presence of olivine.

Posted by: marsbug Sep 5 2008, 05:48 PM

Gallen 53 could you expand on that for me? What I mean is; what is it about the decomposition of olivine that causes dryness? Or do you mean that the presence of olivine is a sign of extreme dryness?

I'm curious that no thin films form at all when the water vapour, presumably coming from the ice beneath, is rising through the soil. It suggests there is something in the soil repelling the water, either a compound or an electrostatic charge...?

Posted by: Gray Sep 5 2008, 05:49 PM

I didn't know that olivine was common in the Martian soils. But then, I didn't know much of anything about their composition. Could you point me towards a reference that describes their mineralogy?
Thanks.

Posted by: gallen_53 Sep 5 2008, 06:06 PM

Olivine is an indicator of extreme dryness. Olivine will rapidly decompose (in geological time) in the presence of liquid water. The Martian surface is very old but there is also lots of olivine. Therefore the Martian surface has been very dry for a long time.



Google is your friend :-) .

http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/Nov03/olivine.html

http://www.astrobio.net/news/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=653&theme=Printer

www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1043.pdf

http://www.marstoday.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=17025

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivine

Posted by: marsbug Sep 5 2008, 07:10 PM

Thanks!

Posted by: slinted Sep 6 2008, 02:21 AM

Not that there wasn't already confirmation, but Spirit actually put her wheels (and instruments) on olivine rich sands back at the El Dorado dune field (see: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/1472.pdf, LPSC 2006).

Posted by: Stu Sep 6 2008, 09:05 AM

http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/rolling-sun-2-2 rolling just beneath (I think..?) the horizon on the morning of Sol 101...

(Too big to post here so I hope you don't mind taking a wander over to my Gallery )

Also, here's a colourisation of a Sol 100 microscope view...

... which is offered purely as an aesthetically-pleasing image; it's been played about with, tweaked and tortured in Photoshop until it begged for mercy, so I'm not suggesting it's colours are accurate, or even that it's remotely useful. I just think it's beautiful!

Posted by: TheChemist Sep 6 2008, 10:24 AM

Regarding the olivine suggestion, I am not convinced at all.

I really don't see how a soil layer a few cm thick, which neighbours with water ice below, and spends six months per year covered with water ice, could contain olivine. Since it reacts so easily with water, only olivine hydrolysis products should be there.

Olivine may point to dryness, but this cannot be logically reversed (and olivine was not detected)
All other instruments show that the Phoenix site is not dry.
The puzzle is how can the soil be consistently dry with so much water around ?
How can the soil be dry when we see water condense on the legs of Phoenix ?

I really enjoy the Scherlock Holmes elements this place offers us
MECA sees perchlorates, but TEGA does not (so far).
The TC probe points that the soil is dry, while we see the ice even with our own eyes !

I just love a good old mystery

Posted by: Pertinax Sep 6 2008, 11:00 AM

Thank you. I love the clouds / haze movement just above the rolling sun!

A question for all: has anyone caught any mention of any glimpses of refractive phenomena (from ices) in any of the sky obs? I've not, but then I have not been able to follow the Phoenix as closely as I would prefer either .

-- Pertinax

Posted by: hortonheardawho Sep 7 2008, 01:09 AM

sol 100 clouds at sunset movie:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/2834010499/

Posted by: Aussie Sep 7 2008, 04:00 AM

Green Beach in Hawaii demonstrates that Olivine can co-exist with a lot of water for a long time (by our Mayfly yardstick). However, if any of the greenish particles we have seen from OM images are Olivine then given their size and the Martian timescales, it would seem proof positive that the probe is right and the regolith is totally dry. I don't know what the temperature of the permafrost is but I feel that it is cold enough for H2O to be just another rock. While they are not releasing even basic information all we can do is conjecture, but that couple of cm of soil seems to have some pretty impressive properties.

Posted by: nprev Sep 7 2008, 08:22 AM

Speaking from ignorance here (my preferred position! ), could this observation be explained by a combination of the facts that 1) water never occurs in the liquid phase here, 2) ice does not chemically interact effectively with soil compounds due to the low temp, and 3) water vapor is in the same boat due to low ambient pressure and temp?

To explain 3) a bit more, even an RH of 100% at an ambient total pressure of 7 mb or so would still seem to be very little water vapor in terms of total mass, and the mean free paths of individual H2O molecules are doubtless much longer than they are at Earth's surface. Frost happens, of course, but that's about the water molecules binding to each other and to the rocks & soil, not electron exchange, so no chemical reactions take place, just phase changes.

That's all probably totally wonky, and in any case my thinking is not well-explained. However, since our direct experience with olivene decomposition is limited to its behavior on our comparatively sopping wet, humid, hot planet with a dense atmosphere, then it makes sense to consider physical factors that might greatly reduce the rate of (or even completely inhibit) chemical activity for such reactions.

Posted by: marsbug Sep 7 2008, 06:43 PM

My ignorance is at least equal to yours here nprev, but I am under the impression that forming frost requires a mobile, or 'liquid' monolayer at the forming surface of the crystals, kept liquid by the pressure of the van der waals forces between the atoms. I think SickNick or Dburt would have some knowledge on whether this is always true. I don't know if any studies have been done to see if frost forms without the monolayer under mars-like conditions?

If it is always true this implies some difference between the surface and near surface material.

Surfaces without thin films of (usually but not always) water experience much higher friction coefficients, as high relief areas, known as asperities, on the two surfaces bond together. This might explain some of the clumping, but not why the clumping seems to lessen over time.

EDIT: Actually it might. If the regolith beneath the surface is ultra dry, and the atmosphere in the soil pores to, then soil freshly removed from the subsurface will have no water monolayers and particles will be held together by cold welds between asperities. After some days exposed to the atmosphere above the surface, which does have some water content, monolayers will start to form, lubricate the particles and hey presto the stickiness goes away.
If there's enough H2O in the Martian air to make that a possibility (no idea myself) then this could be tested by scooping up some subsurface, testing it for monolayers, leaving it in a heap on the deck for a few days then testing it again. If the soil becomes 'damp' after a few days on the deck then we have an explanation in the making and I shall buy myself a new bottle of absinthe! END EDIT.

It's been pointed out to me on the the yellow and black rover forum that relative humidity is temperature dependent and would be expected to vary significantly as the temperature changes, as relative humidity is the partial pressure of the water vapour divided by the saturation vapour pressure of water at a given temperature. Is it possible there has been a misinterpretation somewhere, and the change in relative humidity is entirely due to temperature, and little or no vapour is coming off the ice? Again my ignorance of humidity and atmospheric physics s pretty profound

Posted by: fredk Sep 8 2008, 04:12 AM

Sorry if this has been discussed (I'm back from a break), but these sol96 images show the solar panels flapping (presumably due to wind):

http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS096EFF904723784_1B300R6M1.jpg
http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS096EFF904745055_1B360R6M1.jpg

This is clearly panel movement, since the foreground and background surface are sharp, but the panels are blurred vertically. Have we seen this before?

Posted by: slinted Sep 8 2008, 07:39 AM

Could it just be out of focus, since the panels are further away? R6 is one of the diopter filters. which the http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/vitals.html page lists as having best focus at 1.2 m, in focus from 1 to 1.4 m.

Posted by: Tman Sep 8 2008, 07:42 AM

Can't remember that this was mentioned anywhere. There was already a strong wind at sol94 - see Emily's animation http://planetary.org/blog/article/00001628/ and lots of clouds around in those sols.

Posted by: Tman Sep 8 2008, 08:08 AM

There's such comparable R6 images where it is sharper http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS099EFF904988872_1B7C0R6M1.jpg

Posted by: slinted Sep 8 2008, 10:54 AM

Fair enough! I'm convinced

Posted by: ugordan Sep 8 2008, 10:58 AM

Wow. I didn't expect that kind of power with Mars' air density...

It clearly is flapping and not blur as the blur is directed up-down, a regular motion blur pattern with the two amplitude peaks best exposed. One could probably be able to calculate the amplitude fairly straightforwardly from vertical extent of the blur.

Posted by: Gray Sep 8 2008, 02:23 PM

Thanks for the links.

Posted by: fredk Sep 8 2008, 03:23 PM

To add to ugordan's comment about motion blur, this can't be a focus issue because both the foreground (MECA etc) and the background (surface of Mars) are in good focus, but not the panels in between. No optical system can do that.

The images I linked to have exposures of 714 and 510 milliseconds (I believe those are the units - correct me if I'm wrong). So this is not a gentle flexing of the arrays as the wind varies - they had to flap at least once in a half second.

With this kind of movement in the arrays and wind I wonder if dust is being cleared off. But I suppose the reduction in sunlight will be more important than dust losses for Phoenix.

Posted by: Oersted Sep 8 2008, 04:43 PM

Makes the whole situation up there at the Martian Pole so much more vivid and "real", to see the panels flapping. A bit like the litle tell-tale, but more impressive...

Posted by: Ipparchus Sep 8 2008, 05:29 PM

Why did they aquire another WCL-3 sample(Golden Goose 3)?wasn`t the Golden Goose 2 enough? the upcoming TEGA sample where is going to be from?Stone Soup or Snow White?

Posted by: centsworth_II Sep 8 2008, 05:46 PM

I'm not aware of this. As far as I know, one sample was delivered to WCL-3 and that's that. Do you have a reference for "Golden Goose 3"?

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 8 2008, 06:04 PM

http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/directory.html

Posted by: Tman Sep 8 2008, 06:37 PM

"real" like this

Posted by: centsworth_II Sep 8 2008, 06:52 PM

Curious. There must be some mistake.

Posted by: peter59 Sep 8 2008, 07:06 PM

Great days for MECA OM team. Many high quality OM images.
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=279
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=274
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=271

Posted by: Stu Sep 8 2008, 08:37 PM

Wow... very nice... couldn't resist a couple of probably-bear-no-relation-to-actual-colour-at-all colourisations...

Posted by: climber Sep 8 2008, 09:02 PM

Trying to take off ?

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 8 2008, 10:00 PM

Did anybody else notice this? I didn't see it until just this morning. Looks like TEGA has suffered some kind of anomaly. It's not clear to me from the story if they're going to be able to get what they want to get out of an ice-rich sample or not now. It's New Scientist, so take it with a grain of salt.

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn14681-mars-lander-to-squirrel-away-soil-in-advance-of-winter.html

--Emily

Posted by: mars loon Sep 9 2008, 12:30 AM

my guess is this anomoly is the gas flow problem reported in Aug 31 press release. hopefully not a new problem. ken
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/08_29_pr.php

"The team is currently working to diagnose an intermittent interference that has become apparent in the path for gases generated by heating a soil sample in the Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer to reach the instrument's mass spectrometer. Vapors from all samples baked to high temperatures have reached the mass spectrometer so far, however data has shown that the gas flow has been erratic, which is puzzling the scientists."

Posted by: stevesliva Sep 9 2008, 12:45 AM

It sounded familiar to me as well. I'm thinking New Scientist probably noticed that and gave them a call, because they got a little more info.

Posted by: TheChemist Sep 9 2008, 12:55 AM

I agree mars_loon, it seems that the $%^#*#^# previously erratic gas flow has now stopped completely. So we have to rely on the gases created in situ from the sample to carry stuff of lower concentration to the mass spectrometer. We probably kiss quantitative results goodbye, more or less (although the "intermittent" gas flow may have affected previous TEGA measurements too).

Mars hits back, but we will endure

Posted by: Aussie Sep 9 2008, 12:59 AM

Well they identify and quote their source and provide more information than the official update so I think this time we can forego the salt.

The update http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/08_29_pr.php states that 'At least one ice water cloud has been observed'. Does this imply that the clouds observed are mainly high CO2 ice?

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 9 2008, 01:50 AM

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/08_29_pr.php

My recollection was that the early short problem -- end of May? -- in TEGA was in the shared carrier gas apparatus.

Edit: http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=5199&view=findpost&p=116712



Check that. Next article there says:



Where was that initial short?

Edit: Nevermind. Ionization apparatus. http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/080530-phoenix-mission-update.html:

Posted by: hortonheardawho Sep 9 2008, 05:24 AM

sol 103 OM45 EDF montage:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/2841469571/

EDF - Extended Depth of Field.

This was created from 27 images exposed over a 13 minute period. The image is the sharpest at each point of three focus positions - except where the soil moved.

Posted by: Aussie Sep 9 2008, 07:02 AM

Oh. Now that is just simply magnificent.

Posted by: Stu Sep 9 2008, 07:37 AM

Hungry Phoenix...!

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 9 2008, 08:21 AM

The Phoenix Twitter seems to backup the part of this story regrading filling up all the ovens ASAP.

Posted by: vikingmars Sep 9 2008, 12:58 PM

Animated GIF Sol 103 Telltale + clouds : here it is !
Enjoy !

Posted by: Pertinax Sep 9 2008, 01:06 PM

We're not in Kansas anymore!

On a more serious note, it looks like there are multiple cloud layers. Though it is most certainly an illusion, the sky in that animation reminds me of scud clouds racing on below a cumulonimbus.

In any event, I would love to see the LIDAR data for anytime in the vicinity of that period!


-- Pertinax

Posted by: vikingmars Sep 9 2008, 01:35 PM

...and here is the processing showing the fine structures in Martian clouds.
Enjoy also this animated GIF (enlarged version to enhance the details in the clouds)

Posted by: hortonheardawho Sep 9 2008, 03:33 PM

sol 104 "sunrise" montage:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/2843286460/

I wonder if the "blue" band on the horizon in the first few frames is "real"?

Posted by: djellison Sep 9 2008, 03:36 PM

Quite probably real. Blue sunsets, and high altitude clouds have been seen by Viking, MPF and MER.

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 9 2008, 04:28 PM

That was an unfair comment, and I shouldn't have made it -- I was in a bad mood yesterday from lack of sleep. Sorry.

Way cool cloud animation, Olivier!

--Emily

Posted by: gallen_53 Sep 9 2008, 06:06 PM

Unnecessary full quote - with pic -removed. Mod.

That's a very cool animation! What speed do you think those clouds are going by at? Also, how fast is the wind blowing at the Martian surface near Phoenix?

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 9 2008, 06:28 PM

I don't recall results being announced yet.

From the http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/exploration/phoenix_temperature.asp#wind, typical and extreme conditions are:

Some weather reports from the first few weeks incuded some windspeed statistic and are at http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/exploration/phoenix_weather1.asp, mostly 10-20 km/h.

Posted by: vikingmars Sep 9 2008, 10:25 PM

Thanks a lot, Emily !
Here is the sol 94 cloud animation with the movement inside the mirror also.
Enjoy !

Posted by: TheChemist Sep 9 2008, 10:47 PM

Wow, this really gave me the impression I was there feeling the wind blow !
Thanks you vikingmars what a great animation !

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 9 2008, 11:00 PM

I just had a chat with Barry Goldstein and though he hadn't noticed the motion-blurred images of the solar panels, he told me it wouldn't surprise him at all if we saw them move. He said they're stiff, but not so stiff that the wind can't move them.

He also said that it looks really unlikely that Phoenix will be heard from again after conjunction. However he had no doubt the mission would be re-extended beyond the September 30 extension up until conjunction.

Current plans call for the final WCL sample on Friday and, if that goes well, a Snow White sample for TEGA this weekend.

--Emily

Posted by: mchan Sep 10 2008, 12:52 AM

Adding another wow on the cloud / windsock animation. I can't recall another space animation with both foreground and background visible wind movement. It's two planes of focus coming together for a surreal effect.

Posted by: hortonheardawho Sep 10 2008, 05:29 AM

sol 104 dust devil:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/2844369999/

and a nice animation of another one moving about 1/2 hour later:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/2844418431/

Er, was this expected? Have the orbiters spotted dust devil activity in the area?

It might be interesting to work out it's distance from the lander.

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 10 2008, 05:59 AM

Er, was this expected? Have the orbiters spotted dust devil activity in the area?

I can't find it straight away, but I'm sure that Stu or someone posted a HiRise image of the landing site before Phoenix arrived which showed dust devil activity in the area.
Stu? Anyone?

Seeing these from Phoenix's perspective of course gives us all a whole new area of observational work to do...COOL!

Posted by: slinted Sep 10 2008, 06:13 AM

Is this what you were thinking of? http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/pia10633.html

Posted by: djellison Sep 10 2008, 06:46 AM

Yes. infact using the RAC to do DD surveys after the arm is parked up for good was mentioned before landing (as, weird though it may see, the RAC has a wider FOV than the SSI)

Doug

Posted by: peter59 Sep 10 2008, 07:53 AM

Other dust devil is visible on image SS104EFF905438060_165C0R1M1.jpg (top,left)

http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS104EFF905438060_165C0R1M1.jpg

Posted by: Tman Sep 10 2008, 09:07 AM

Another one just in the image before, about a minute earlier. Guess a short life or in formation phase. Looks like the direction of the DDs is circa from east to west or more northward, isn't it?
http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS104EFF905438003_165C0LCM1.jpg

Hey another one http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_30258.jpg that appeared about four minutes earlier than those in Horton's second animation.

Posted by: Stu Sep 10 2008, 01:18 PM

I posted this image suggesting it might be either signs of dd activity or maybe even a vent...

Posted by: ahecht Sep 10 2008, 02:36 PM

Another dust devil image here, which looks more impressive in the full-size version:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_30258.jpg
Click for larger image

Posted by: MahFL Sep 10 2008, 04:33 PM

Cool, that's the first time I saw DD's at the Phoenix site.

Posted by: fredk Sep 10 2008, 04:39 PM

New Scientist seems to be a good source of Phoenix news these days! From http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn14698-mars-lander-abandons-underground-salt-search.html

Posted by: ConyHigh Sep 10 2008, 06:12 PM

The "quote" is the writer's own conclusion.
Her words are in contrast to the project's recent release:

The next soil sample that NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander will deliver to its deck instruments will go to the fourth of the four cells of Phoenix's wet chemistry laboratory, according to the Phoenix team's current plans.

which clearly states there will be another soil sample tested by the wet chemistry instrument.

Posted by: BrianL Sep 10 2008, 06:27 PM

Perhaps a dust devil made the solar panels vibrate (in addition to cleaning the dust off).

Posted by: Paolo Amoroso Sep 10 2008, 06:41 PM

Plenty of interesting noises.


Paolo Amoroso

Posted by: climber Sep 10 2008, 08:00 PM

BTW, any news about turning Mardi on with its microphone?

Posted by: PFK Sep 10 2008, 10:47 PM

Ah, now I'd meant to ask that as well with reference to an article I'm writing (chemistry related rather than Phoenix per se). Is it still possible?

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 10 2008, 11:20 PM

Nice spotting on the DDs everyone.
I think that there might be one hiding behind the teltale mast in this 3-frame sequence. I think you can just make out the raised dust trailing the devil. See the third frame with the DD to the right to see what I mean. The same DD?

Astro0

Posted by: Aussie Sep 11 2008, 02:00 AM

Rachel was refering to the Stone Soup Sample. The project release indicates a revisit to Snow White. If Rachael is right then the deep sampling from Stone Soup has not been successful. This would fit the images of a compact and upright sample in the hopper, although a little movement is evident. I am not across the sampling process for the Wet Lab. If, like other samples, it crumbles with time can the sampling still be analysed?

New Scientist seem to be most proactive in establishing what is going on. This is in contrast to the official project releases which are, dare I say it, cosmetic space fillers deficient in substance. The magazine also beat Emily to the punch which is an incredibly difficult feat. Let's give credit where credit is due.

While we are all delighted that the Project has finally released the OM backlog and are grateful for the swift release of other images, information release on other aspects is more in accord with ESA than what we came to expect during the early days of the MER.

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 11 2008, 04:33 AM

"them's fightin' words round here!"

Deep breath....and relax.



EDIT: As a total aside on that... I found a really nice gallery of Phoenix images on the LockheedMartin website.
It's prbably been mentioned elsewhere, but there are quite a few images I hadn't seen before. Some provide a really nice scale on the lander's size compared to people. Very nice to see her this way.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/PhoenixMarsLander/PhoenixMarsLanderGallery.html

Posted by: peter59 Sep 11 2008, 06:16 AM

What is this ? Hair, fiber, thread ?

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=283

Posted by: Tman Sep 11 2008, 09:23 AM

I see what you mean. Would agree that is the same DD - nice spotted. What distance has it covered in the 50 seconds?
Hehe what a fluke, if it's true.

Posted by: djellison Sep 11 2008, 10:29 AM

I quite agree. However, given that this is the publication that gave us puddles on a cliff-face, it is only appropriate to urge caution and seek independent confirmation of what it reports.

Posted by: Oersted Sep 11 2008, 11:14 AM

That is exactly the way to do this animation, upping the brightness on the mirror, good job!

Posted by: James Sorenson Sep 11 2008, 04:23 PM

Does anyone know why the phoenix website seems to be down?

Posted by: ConyHigh Sep 11 2008, 06:53 PM

It's back up now.

Posted by: ArizonaWildcat Sep 11 2008, 08:07 PM

Problem with the server at the Mother Ship. Service is restored.

Posted by: Stu Sep 11 2008, 09:06 PM

Sol 106 colourisation'n tweak of 08.30ish local time images...

I know it's not good for Phoenix, but I wish we could see some more frost here...

Posted by: Gonzz Sep 11 2008, 10:13 PM

Beautiful image Stu!
Love the eerie atmosphere

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 12 2008, 02:01 AM

Here's the http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/09_11_pr.php. A total of 12 different sightings of 6 different ones. Pressure sensor seems to have recorded a close pass by one. Several images include one confirming http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=31037&cID=286.

I've been behind with news because I waited 3 days to get a phone call from a science team member Tomorrow's only a half day for me, I'll try to write things up as quickly as possible.

--Emily

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 12 2008, 05:29 AM

Sol103 telltale with enhanced mirror view.

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 12 2008, 05:44 AM

Also, for those wanting to see the Sol104 DD without downloading the 4.15mb file from the Phoenix website, here's a smaller version (with some colour added for effect - can't help myself!)

Posted by: Vultur Sep 12 2008, 08:34 PM

Hmmm, I don't know; looks interesting. If it's not debris from the landing, maybe it's some sort of crystal?

Posted by: TheChemist Sep 12 2008, 11:54 PM

Not crystal, and definitely not hair
It's a fiber from earth, and it looks to be 40-50 microns thick and 1.5-2 mm long.
Sorry but I don't see anything interesting about it.

Posted by: mike Sep 13 2008, 01:45 AM

The most likely explanation is that it is something off of the spacecraft.. but playing the odds is so easy.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 13 2008, 02:08 AM

The telltale has been quite active lately. Maybe it's a shred of that damaged material that was tossed about in the recent breezes.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 13 2008, 04:41 AM

For the record, I agree with you. The odds are that it is something from the spacecraft. But just to play the devil's advocate, what about an asbestos type of mineral? Those can be parted into fibrous pieces, can they not?

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 13 2008, 05:00 AM

Wouldn't that be interesting? We've been seeing that apparently frayed bit of thread in thousands of telltale images for a long time. Still, it would be quite a coincidence.

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 13 2008, 05:56 AM

It's a thread from one of Pathfinder's airbags.

Hey, it's had more than 10 years to get blown halfway across the planet, right?



-the other Doug

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 13 2008, 11:06 AM

Animation of the recent dumping activity on WCL.

Posted by: TheChemist Sep 13 2008, 11:40 AM

I like the devil thing myself, but, well, we are playing with odds here.
Has any http://geology.about.com/library/bl/images/blchrysotile.htm been found near Phoenix ?
My martian geology is nonexistant, but I googled http://composite.about.com/library/glossary/c/bldef-c1088.htm, where it says that chrysotile is "a hydrated magnesium ortho-silicate... " Are there such things around ?

Posted by: 3488 Sep 13 2008, 01:45 PM

I wonder if it is a fibre that somehow come off the WindTeller? I think it is. What are the odds of that being a fibre from Mars Pathfinder airbag? Billions to one against, Trillions to one against? Just a thought.

Andrew Brown.

Posted by: mike Sep 13 2008, 07:15 PM

I believe it's some sort of Mars-originating object. Mineral, vegetable, or animal would all be interesting.

Posted by: Shaka Sep 13 2008, 07:59 PM

Let me know if it gives birth...

Posted by: Aussie Sep 14 2008, 05:07 AM

On another forum Hortonheardawho posted a sol 74 image of this cell. No fibre in that image. I also note that the sample itself has changed to a degree in this later imaging. So either the strand comes internal to the OM system or they are trying to re-use cells. But if they were surely they would have said something. Wouldn't they?

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 14 2008, 05:12 AM

A far as I know, these minerals have not yet been confirmed to exist on Mars. Since they are relatively common on Earth, I see no reason to doubt they could also be relatively common on Mars, despite the somewhat different geological histories of the planets. I think there are other geologists here who could offer more insight along those lines than I am able to provide.

But as you say, we are playing with odds here. During my lifetime, I have looked at a lot of samples of things under various microscopes, and I have very infrequently noticed fibrous impurities in mineral samples on Earth...and I never found an obvious chrysotile impurity in the sample, regardless of the fact that chrysotile is a relatively common mineral in the mines of Earth.

For me, finding a microscopic fiber on Mars seems to strongly suggest that the thread took a ride from Earth, as all the previous fibers have.

Posted by: Oersted Sep 14 2008, 09:53 AM

Tell-Tale...

(but I like your name, maybe for a future Mars mission..)

Posted by: Stu Sep 14 2008, 06:07 PM

Some http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/sol-108-imagefestup on my Phoenixpics Gallery wall, if anyone fancies a look...

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 14 2008, 07:59 PM

Sol 108 where are you?

It's been about 48 hours since http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=287 began to arrive. And, so far only 52 of them have been put on the Web.

Phoenix on Mars in more than halfway into Sol 109.

Where are the Sol 108 Raw Images? And, the remainder of the Sol 107?

Anyone heard? Are we getting into weekend staffing schedules where nothing much happens here on Earth?

Posted by: djellison Sep 14 2008, 08:07 PM

Maybe a server is bust, maybe a script broke, maybe there was a downlink issue. What I know for sure is that you should chill out

Posted by: Aussie Sep 14 2008, 10:16 PM

Stu, cool 'imagefest'.

For prosterity, I think you should tag the images with the trench name or direction of view or other identification in addition to the sol number as once Phoenix goes out with whimper (as opposed to a bang) we are going to be spending a lot of time and energy revisiting all the images posted on or linked to this site. But the OM 'jewels' image you are now using as an avatar still gets my vote at the 'prettiest' image ex Phoenix to date.

Posted by: slinted Sep 14 2008, 11:26 PM

The http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/directory.html is still updating, currently through sol 109. It describes sol 108 as a 'Runout', which might be the cause of the delay in the LPL's page updates.

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 14 2008, 11:57 PM

Ahhhh... Thanks. Got my fix.

Yeah, the label for 108 was changed to "Runout". I was hoping to see a TEGA Oven #1 icy-soil delivery as the label previously foretold.

We'll get there. Thanks for the tip.

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 15 2008, 03:51 AM

Animation Sol108 DD

Posted by: Ipparchus Sep 15 2008, 08:04 AM

I think there is a way to insert the Golden Goose soil sample into the WCL-3. As you can see to my sketch, Phoenix team could push the large pile of soil on top of the WCL-3 hopper with the scoop (image 2). Some of the soil would be inserted from the hopper slots and hanged into the cell (image 3). Then by vibrating the hopper (image 4) some of the soil should fall into the cell, because of its spindly shape and relatively totter pattern (image 5 and 6). I think this method could possibly work. Otherwise, it would be a pity not analysing the very special and interesting Golden Goose soil sample. I`d like to know your opinion about this method.

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 15 2008, 08:20 AM

Does the WCL even have a vibrating hopper? First I've heard of it.

If they were to try something like this, I would imagine it would be one of the last planned activated with the arm to minimise the risk if it all went horribly wrong.

Posted by: BrianL Sep 15 2008, 11:58 AM

Maybe wait for another dust devil to pass by and shake the whole lander.

Posted by: Stu Sep 15 2008, 12:23 PM

Thanks Aussie, appreciate that Yeah, I plan on giving proper labels to the images eventually, not an option right now as I'm just too busy, and having too much fun making them. I'm not trying for accuracy or usefulness, just unashamedly pretty pictures, poster and postcard views if you like.

The "jewels" images are very special to me. I am under no illusions whatsoever that they're anything other than inaccurately coloured follies, but to me they show the beauty of My Mars, the Mars that's been in my head since I was a kid, you know?

Posted by: Ant103 Sep 15 2008, 03:59 PM

A view with TECP - RA and a piece of sky and ground on Sol 108. I particulary love this sort of view
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/ss108eff905788727_01168rcoul.jpg

Posted by: Stu Sep 15 2008, 07:34 PM

Traces of frost inside the Snow White trench..? (Sol 109 images) 10.22am seems a bit late, but if the frost had been in shadow it might have lingered..?

Posted by: James Sorenson Sep 15 2008, 08:10 PM

Looks like they're using the inorganic blank

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=31479&cID=292

Posted by: Stu Sep 15 2008, 09:23 PM

Some frost inside the trench on http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/phoenixs-frosty-trench, too...

Posted by: Stu Sep 15 2008, 10:44 PM

Sol 110 images coming in...

Present for ya, Aussie...

And a second pic http://phoenixpics.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/109jewels-c.jpg...

Posted by: Aussie Sep 16 2008, 03:18 AM

Thanks Stu - Keats was right, 'A thing of beauty is a joy forever'. And as far as outreach goes beauty in an image is more important than any scientific aspect in gaining public support for the programs. (The Hubble images being a perfect example). But aesthetics aside, that stuff is highly ferromagnetic. What was the provenance of the sample - anyone have any idea?

They seem to be re-using cells at an ever increasing rate.

Posted by: eoincampbell Sep 16 2008, 05:30 AM

Stu makes 'em look like a lovely bunch of flowers

Posted by: Ipparchus Sep 16 2008, 07:37 AM

Doug could you tell me your opinion about what I wrote yesterday: I think there is a way to insert the Golden Goose soil sample into the WCL-3. As you can see to my sketch, Phoenix team could push the large pile of soil on top of the WCL-3 hopper with the scoop (image 2). Some of the soil would be inserted from the hopper slots and hanged into the cell (image 3). Then by vibrating the hopper (image 4) some of the soil should fall into the cell, because of its spindly shape and relatively totter pattern (image 5 and 6). I think this method could possibly work. Otherwise, it would be a pity not analysing the very special and interesting Golden Goose soil sample. I`d like to know your opinion about this method.

Posted by: Reckless Sep 16 2008, 09:54 AM

This is not Doug here but I think this has type of fix has been discussed before with regards to TEGA. the problem is the RA is very powerful and a slight error could cause some serious damage to Phoenix which is not worth risking.
Just to clarify the vibrating you are talking about, is that by using the rasp while the scoop is in contact with MECA?

Reckless aka Roy

Posted by: djellison Sep 16 2008, 10:53 AM

You don't need to use bold to try and shout your point across - and as someone has already described - the WCL does not have vibrators like TEGA.

Posted by: BrianL Sep 16 2008, 04:34 PM

Caps is shouting, bold is just raising your voice a little. Of course, using caps and bold would be throwing a tantrum.

Posted by: Ipparchus Sep 17 2008, 08:41 AM

I saw in some animations here that the soil on the WCLs was vibrating? that`s what the hopper does, doesn`t it? otherwise how is it inserted into the WCL cells? is there any hope that the WCL-3 soil sample will be inserted into that cell? how?

Posted by: djellison Sep 17 2008, 09:04 AM

Where? Because they don't. They do stir the material once inside - but it doesn't vibrate like TEGA does.

And according to the Phoenix website - this cell is now full and delivery complete.

Posted by: akuo Sep 17 2008, 09:21 AM

Confusingly, the Phoenix site doesn't seem to http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/09_16_pr.php. They say "A small pile of soil is visible on the lower edge of the second cell from the top". What is going on here? Did they add material to cell #2?

Posted by: Stu Sep 17 2008, 10:20 AM

Just finished a new poem about Phoenix, which you can find http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/the-trench(if you want a fancy version with a pic) or http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/TheVerse/entries/2008/09/17/the-trench/825(if you just want to read the text).

Posted by: Stu Sep 17 2008, 12:22 PM

Is this a small feature on the side of the robot arm, or has Phoenix been capturing her own reflection..?

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_32487.jpg

Looks like the stereo camera to me, but might be wrong... I'm sure someone will tell me if I am...

Posted by: djellison Sep 17 2008, 01:33 PM

Looks like a little bolt on the arm to me.

Posted by: ugordan Sep 17 2008, 01:38 PM

Looks like baby Jesus to me.

* ducks and runs away *

Posted by: Stu Sep 17 2008, 02:21 PM

Why take a picture of a little bolt?

Posted by: djellison Sep 17 2008, 02:34 PM

Maybe it was intended as a sky ob, but the arm was in the way?

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 17 2008, 02:37 PM

My understanding: Originally they skipped cell 2 (reason to me unknown) and dropped a Stone Soup sample on cell 3, the one farthest away. That stuck and didn't succeed, so they tried again and dropped another really big sample from Stone Soup to cell 3. That also was sticky and just piled up.

Recently, they delivered a sample from Snow White to cell 2. Some of that soil stuck to the screen too. but enough got in for success.

They sit now with 3 used WCL cells, 0, 1 and 2. Cell 3 hasn't been used but its mouth is covered with a big clump of soil from Stone Soup.

Posted by: Stu Sep 17 2008, 02:38 PM

Hey look! A little bolt! You'd all have missed that if I hadn't pointed it out now, wouldn't you?

Posted by: djellison Sep 17 2008, 03:37 PM

It's in situ in this pan
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_32522.jpg

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 17 2008, 05:04 PM

Uh oh. That's no bolt!

(joking - just joking)

Posted by: JRehling Sep 17 2008, 09:34 PM

The only thing missing is the Wicked Witch saying, "I want your little dog!"

That animation is cool... and creepy.

Posted by: Stu Sep 18 2008, 02:48 PM

Psssst, guys... wanna see something ?

I was bored - should be attacking this huge pile of editing, but really not in the mood - so I thought I'd try animating some of the microscope images from Sol 112, just see if any little grains shifted... I think this classifies as "shifting", don't you..?

Cute or what?

... and in colour...



... and a http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/movement-in-a-microscope on my Gallery blog...

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 18 2008, 06:23 PM

Good eye Stu. This is amazing. I took the one from your web page and aligned the backgrounds (somewhat) to sort of stabilize it. It then makes the whole pile come alive.

[EDIT: IMPROVED IMAGE UPDATED 9/28 ]

Posted by: Stu Sep 18 2008, 06:38 PM

Reaction #1: woooo-weeee!!! Disco dancin' dust grains!!!

Reaction #2: Damn. Wish I'd thought to do that...

You're a genius Dan!

Posted by: Aussie Sep 19 2008, 02:44 AM

Great animations, but you guys obviously know something that I don't because my initial reaction is:

Reaction #1: woooo-weeee!!! Disco dancin' dust grains!!! (apologies to Stu for borrowing his words)

Reaction #2: This is the weak magnet - why is it so!!!

Is this a function of a variable magnetic field or just vibration of the wheel with the weak field enabling some movement? What are the magnetic parameters for the magnetic cells? Are these pemanent magnet or coil? Is this a deliberate feature of the OM capability?

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 19 2008, 04:16 AM

I'd have to think it's wind moving the grains, young grasshopper...

-the other Doug

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 19 2008, 04:38 AM

I would agree since they appear to be moving at random, whereas if this was due to the influence of a magnet they'd more or less be rocking back and forth together.

Posted by: Aussie Sep 19 2008, 05:05 AM

Wind? Within the dark confines of the OM? Ommmmm - old and wise Master Other Doug, the ways of the lander designers and the subtle effects of the Martian environment are more wonderous than ever I thought.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 19 2008, 06:01 AM

Wow! That's really nifty, EGD. I'm not sure which forces could be controlling the disco dance. I'll throw electrostatic discharges into the suggestion box. OMG, that is really nice. I suppose motor vibrations transmitted through the solid members of the lander might possibly cause a similar effect, as fredk suggested elsewhere. You would have to know the timing of all motor operations with regard to the timing of the capturing of the MI images.

It would be helpfull to know the lengths of time between the images. I'm too busy to look for that information. Mars exploration continues to be quite a lot of fun, is it not?

Posted by: djellison Sep 19 2008, 07:03 AM

They drive a motor to pull focus - so that could cause vibrations to move material.

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 19 2008, 07:36 AM

Wind passing overhead can cause airflow in the bottom of a screwhole, among other things... and these are very, very small and light dust particles, for the most part. The same particles might blow up into the air when exposed to non-sheltered winds... in the "dark confines," which aren't exactly hermetically sealed, I bet the winds could create enough airflow to account for the movement we're seeing.



-the other Doug

edit -- I'm being *very* good, I think, by not pointing out how much it appears like one of the larger grains is being moved around by a teeny tiny little winged insect, which appears to the grain's left edge about halfway through the animation... and yes, I know, it's just lighting and underlying grain movement. But, man, that really looks like a tiny little mi+e-like insec+ in that one shot. Amazing what the pattern-seeking human mind thinks it can see in the darndest of places...

-dvd

Posted by: Aussie Sep 19 2008, 09:33 AM

Some of the other 'free thinking' forums have already determined the likelihood of biological influences in these OM without the smiley icon - ferromagnetic structures must of necessity be biological. But fair enough - each to his own.

On a serious note I would plumb for vibration combined with the weak magnetic stabilising influence. I don't think that under the current atmospheric pressure the recorded wind speeds could have this effect through what must be a miniscule path to the OM interior. But how can we know when even the most minor information on the magnetic parameters seem to be a state secret. We still haven't had the somewhat dubious press release on variation in atmospheric vapour pressure clarified in absolute rather than relative terms. In fact even the relative terms are not defined. As pointed out by Marsbug, a somewhat sloppy press release.

Posted by: SteveM Sep 19 2008, 09:05 PM

Before we go too far on the dancing dust motes, do we know whether or not the Sample Wheel Translation Stage (SWTS) moved between these images. If it rotated this sample away and then returned to it later, we would have a simple explanation.



Steve M

Posted by: DFinfrock Sep 20 2008, 12:09 AM

If it is indeed wind causing the movement of the grains, wouldn't the smallest grains be affected first, rather than the larger (heavier) grains? Or would the larger grains' higher profiles make them more liable to be affected by the wind?

If it is a magnetically induced effect, then obviously only the large, moving grains are feeling that effect. But other than size, there doesn't seem to be any obvious visible differences between the moving and non-moving grains. Most of the visible physical differences (which are many) certainly don't discriminate by whether or not there is movement.

Posted by: bgarlick Sep 20 2008, 12:38 AM

In the animation one can see that at each frame the focus is different. They have done this before. By taking a picture at various focal lengths they can combine the images and get a final image that is in focus everywhere. The only problem, however, is that if there is any movement of the subject matter between pictures this image processing trick won't work! :-)

Posted by: Vultur Sep 20 2008, 01:11 AM

Which trench were these "dancing" samples taken from?

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 20 2008, 02:15 AM

Stone Soup trench

http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/directory.html:



Imaged sol 112 (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=298).

Posted by: Vultur Sep 20 2008, 03:45 AM

Thank you.

Posted by: Aussie Sep 20 2008, 07:03 AM

The movement seems confined to the dark grains while the yellowish dust seems fixed. While it looks like some of the yellow dust has conglomerated and is 'dancing to the beat' on closer inspection the yellow dust is adhering to darker particles and it is the particles doing the moving. Is this magnetic or static adhesion I wonder. The dust itself seems highly magnetic as where there are no dark particles involved it clings doggedly to the substrate, even with the weak magnetic attraction. (Weak being a subjective term as we have no idea of the cell parameters).


It is a beautiful picture and a really cool effect. But without any indication of the cell properties or the likely sample constituents from other analysis tools then a pretty picture is all it is.

Posted by: Stu Sep 20 2008, 08:02 AM

Well, sometimes a pretty picture is enough

Speaking of which, here's another almost-certainly scientifically useless animation, showing changes in frost (and a bit of new digging, too?) on a trench floor on the morning of Sol 113. Images used in the .gif were taken at 06.34(ish) and 07.10(ish).

... and there's a colourisation http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/20/down-in-the-dirt-2of the same view taken at 18.13 on the same day... frost's still there, and the floor has been hacked at quite a bit!

Posted by: Stu Sep 20 2008, 10:28 PM

http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/20/shifting-shadows-and-flashing-frost

Frost spots caught forming in a Sol 114 sequence..?

Posted by: fredk Sep 20 2008, 11:40 PM

Thanks for the gif, Stu. I think we're seeing tiny ice crystals with flat faces that reflect the sun to the camera when the sun's at just the right angle. Not all of them brighten steadily - some brighten and then dim, so I think they may not be forming during the sequence, just sitting there, waiting to catch the sun at the right angle.

Posted by: briv1016 Sep 21 2008, 02:11 AM

Can anybody substantiate this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26781854/

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 21 2008, 02:30 AM

http://twitter.com/MarsPhoenix:

Posted by: Stu Sep 21 2008, 06:31 AM

Ah, didn't think of that. Makes sense, thanks. I'll amend my Gallery blog accordingly

Posted by: Stu Sep 21 2008, 08:07 AM

Sol 114... Snow White... low angle Sun... frost twinkling away...

Priceless

Posted by: Stu Sep 21 2008, 09:43 PM

Some new Snow White colourisations http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/21/the-sun-sets-on-snow-white, if anyone wants a break from dreaming of conquering the Endeavour Peaks...

Posted by: fredk Sep 22 2008, 02:50 PM

Some nice shots showing the RAC LED's in opperation, here's the red ones:
http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS116ESF906510568_1D790RAM1.jpg

Can anyone figure out what we're seeing here: there's a change in the border of the rectangular black area between the two banks of LEDs between these two frames:
http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS116ESF906510286_1D790RAM1.jpg
http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS116ESF906511450_1D790RAM1.jpg
The lighting hasn't changed much as you can see by the shadows. Is that the RAC camera apperture?

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 22 2008, 09:52 PM

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=309

The RAC and SSI shoot each other.
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=34021&cID=309 http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=34006&cID=309

Posted by: djellison Sep 22 2008, 10:11 PM

That's a LOT of fun

Posted by: ugordan Sep 22 2008, 10:21 PM

Hahahaha, it's Disco era all over again!

Posted by: Shaka Sep 22 2008, 10:39 PM

Robbie the Robot, eat your heart out!

We've got the colors; now all we need is the Close Encounters... theme music! dum...dum..dum...dum...dummmmm

Posted by: TheChemist Sep 22 2008, 10:49 PM

http://twitter.com/MarsPhoenix has this info :

"I've been given a pretty cool assignment: use my arm to move aside a rock. It will be interesting to see if it works & to see what's under! "

Any clues as to where this will take place and why ?

Posted by: PFK Sep 22 2008, 10:52 PM

I can just imagine her resolutely humming "ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin' alive...stayin' alive" as the cardice condenses in due course

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 22 2008, 10:53 PM

Headless. Sol 117. To get to the other side -- or, to see what the ice is like underneath.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1877

Posted by: TheChemist Sep 22 2008, 11:01 PM

Thanks, your great numberness

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 22 2008, 11:02 PM

Head shake...

Posted by: Deimos Sep 23 2008, 01:24 AM

There is a transparent cover deployed in the earlier image and protecting the optics in the last, with a border. The aperture is within the black area.

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 23 2008, 04:51 AM

Headless has been moved.
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=34245&cID=310

Posted by: Stu Sep 23 2008, 06:09 AM

Headless moved, alright...

( full size version http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/phoenix-1-rock-0)

Posted by: HughFromAlice Sep 23 2008, 09:39 AM

Stu - I've gotta say it - Your 3D work is spectacular. I could have almost reached through my screen into that trench and picked up that rock!

Posted by: Stu Sep 23 2008, 03:59 PM

Thanks Hugh, appreciate that. Here's a colourised version...

Posted by: Phil Stooke Sep 23 2008, 04:37 PM

Check this out:
http://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/meeting/sep-08/index.html

Especially this presentation:

http://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/meeting/sep-08/P_Smith_Phoenix_results.ppt

Which is a nice summary of Phoenix including a very nice graph of power levels over the course of the mission so far. There's a nice topographic map of the site too.

Phil

Posted by: SolarSystemRubble Sep 23 2008, 05:02 PM

NASA will hold a televised media briefing on Monday, Sept. 29, at 2 p.m. EDT (11 a.m. PDT). Briefing participants will provide an update of the Phoenix Mars Mission.

The briefing will be carried live by NASA TV and on the Internet at: NASA TV

Posted by: bgarlick Sep 23 2008, 08:16 PM

Notice on the available power profile slide there is a mention of a "Lazarus Mode" which seems to imply they are going to put Phoenix into some sort
of state that 'might' allow them to 'resurrect' Phoenix in the martian spring.... The existence of such a mode implies they are not 100% convinced the
mission will end with the onset of winter.

Posted by: djellison Sep 23 2008, 08:18 PM

The Lazarus mode has been discussed for a long time. I don't think anyone is expecting it to realistically come into play, but it's just common sense to put the code in there to give the vehicle a chance were that situation to arise.

Doug

Posted by: SolarSystemRubble Sep 23 2008, 08:36 PM

I would say "they" are 99.999999% sure it will not survive winter. It never hurts to plan for the best possible outcome...

Posted by: helvick Sep 23 2008, 09:38 PM

I'm pretty sure that the CO2 ice build up (which will kick in in earnest at around Sol 210 IIRC) will eventually lead to Phoenix being encased in many tens if not hundreds of kg of solid CO2. I may have been mistaken in the data I extracted from the Mars Climate Database http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=5208&view=findpost&p=117877 but I think it is certain that the ice build up will break off the solar panels even if it is not sufficient to literally crush Phoenix. I certainly don't expect Phoenix to wake up but I'll happily eat my words if she does.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 23 2008, 10:54 PM

The one thing that I wonder about, and we may never know, is the way they talk about the panels breaking off from the build up of CO2. My gut feeling is that the CO2 is going to accumulate from the ground up. Indeed the shadowed regions under the lander will likely see the first significant growth of solid CO2 and that area will likely always have more of it until the whole region is buried. That would mean that while the panels may wind up embedded in the ice, they probably won't ever be holding up a heavy load. My guess would be that any CO2 deposition on the panels will probably occur when the ground is already waist deep in the stuff.

Posted by: bgarlick Sep 23 2008, 11:18 PM

Does anyone know if Phoenix has been imaged by an orbiter while its Lidar was turned on?
If the orbiter was directly overhead when the lidar was on, could the orbiter see the lidar beam or light from it?
I could imagine so since a laser being pointed straight into the camera sensor should be detectable!
If so, I wonder if toward the end of the mission when Phoenix does not have enough power to run its radio transmitters, could it
send a "I am still alive" signal to the orbiters by blinking its Lidar at them when they are scheduled to be overhead. (I presume operating
the laser takes a lot less energy than operating the UHV/VHF radios...)
Also, in general, I wonder if any atmospheric science could be done by imaging the lidar beam from orbit.

Posted by: stevesliva Sep 23 2008, 11:27 PM

I wondered the same thing, and have assumed that they expect CO2 frost to form on the panels because they'll be solid surfaces below the dewpoint, or whatever the CO2 equivalent is. I do wonder, though, why it would be assumed that one they're covered in a thin opaque layer of frost, that the deposition would still weigh them down enough before the surface frost rises up...

Posted by: Deimos Sep 23 2008, 11:49 PM

Good thought, but it doesn't work out. The orbiter must have a camera sensitive to 532 nm, which isn't too common And the beam has to not get swamped by the sensor being very broad band or the resolution being low. Good news is the Hirise blue-green channel sort of qualifies (its broad band). The possibility of detection, though, relies on the beam not spreading much. Assuming arbitrarily that the beam width is 1 m at orbital altitudes, the orbiter camera has to pass through that 1 m. There are 8000 km available to pass through in the Phoenix altitude circle. Unless I messed up my math, an orbiter would have one look directly into the laser beam every 900 years, give or take.

Posted by: James Sorenson Sep 24 2008, 12:05 AM

How about HiRISE imaging the lidar beam at angle, and not directly over the beam?.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 24 2008, 12:24 AM

Sounds like a pretty tough request. Almost like asking them to image a craft during EDL.

Posted by: MahFL Sep 24 2008, 01:22 PM

Can I just get confirmation from someone that the white stuff in this picture is CO2 frost ?
Thank you.

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_34652.jpg

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 24 2008, 02:08 PM

Is it cold enough yet?

http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/26/who-cares-if-theres-ice-on-mars



Mars Weather Report: Sol 109 Minimum: -86C -122.8 F

Edit: Here's a source for a CO₂ freezing point on Mars, http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msp98/lander/science.html:

Posted by: Ant103 Sep 24 2008, 03:05 PM

Yes, that's frost
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/sol118-morefrost.jpg

And in Snow White :
http://www.db-prods.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/frostysnowwhite-sol118.jpg

Posted by: Pertinax Sep 24 2008, 07:08 PM

Two other things to keep in mind:

1) at what elevation is the -86C being measured at (either 0.25, 0.5, or 1.0m)
2) how much more does the surface of the ground cool relative even to the 0.25m temperature value due to radiational cooling?

Remember, even frost can form here on a still clear night on even with temperatures near 40F.

I am not arguing that that is CO2 frost (personally I think it's H2O), rather that I think we'll see CO2 frost before the met mast notes the CO2 frost point.


-- Pertinax

Posted by: 3488 Sep 24 2008, 07:16 PM

Temps are @ 1 metre IIRC.

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=34587&cID=313.

SSI as imaged by the RAC Sol 117.

The originals were very dark, so I have cropped, enlarged, brightened & contrast enhanced them.

Andrew Brown.

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 24 2008, 08:22 PM

Maybe we'll see it. When it does happen it'll probably be hard to see, happening on top of a nice layer of water frost, which has a much higher freezing point.

Is the current difference between measured air temperature and ground likely to be the required circa 40 degrees C (air, minimum, maybe an average of the several mast sensor readings, recently: -86 C, freezing point: -125 C) for carbon dioxide frost? I don't think so.

It's still mid-calendar-summer for Phoenix. Autumn begins around our Christmas time. The cold is coming. The CO₂ frost is coming too. But also conjunction is coming mid-November, and speculation by Barry Goldstein (I think) was that might be the last we hear from Phoenix.

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 24 2008, 08:24 PM

Goldstein said to me that the downward-trending power prediction graph intersected with the minimum-power level on a date that was, coincidentally, very close to the date of Mars solar conjunction. Keeping in mind that, as an engineer, it's his job to be a pessimist, he was pessimistic about Phoenix surviving beyond conjunction.

--Emily

Posted by: Stu Sep 24 2008, 08:32 PM

Plenty of life left in our fiery bird yet...

Sol 118 colourisation... nice chunka frost on the right there... local time 17.30...

Posted by: peter59 Sep 24 2008, 08:44 PM

Next dust devil near Phoenix - sol 117.

Posted by: JRehling Sep 24 2008, 08:50 PM

The ground will have a much greater thermal inertial than the skinny solar panels, so it seems to me that they could become foci of frost formation long before the ground would be cold for enough of the cycle to allow massive depositions. This is the "bridges may be icy" effect. A bridge is cooled by the air on all sides, above and below. The ground is only cooled from above. A "wave of cold" can penetrate to the center of mass of the bridge or solar panel, but can never do that with the planet below.

In both cases, there should be a runaway effect, because the dark panels and dark ground will suddenly absorb much less heat when frost covers them. (Relevant if the sun is still adding any heat at all.) That could cause the fraction of sunlight absorbed to plummet from 80-90% down to 10%. Those solar panels will quickly win or tie the contest for the coldest surfaces around.

It's hard to say if the frost would build up on them faster than the ground layer would grow up to them. Obviously, it's a function of their height. My guess is it will build up on them first. IIRC, the whole seasonal layer is only about 2 m thick. Maybe we'll see some springtime pictures of panels lying next to the lander. If they do break off, they could become, in springtime, the foci of interesting melting effects. Maybe they could even drift horizontally as the base of ice sublimates.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Sep 24 2008, 09:22 PM

Ah yes, 'bridges may be icy'. It always surprises me to see that sign at the corner of Space Center and NASA Boulevard (NASA Road 1) adjacent to JSC. How often is it icy there?

If the panels were lying next to the lander it could be a bit difficult to power up the camera to photograph them.

Phil

Posted by: Vultur Sep 25 2008, 01:25 AM

Never, or close enough.

Posted by: Aussie Sep 25 2008, 10:36 PM

What is the temperature gradient profile from the ground up? I would have anticipated that CO2 would freeze out and fall as 'snow' in which case it will collect on the upper areas of Phoenix and the area immediately below the solar panels/body would have minimal buildup of CO2 ice. The solar panels wouldn't hold out for long in that scenario. But I am outside my comfort zone here and the atmospheric freeze scenario is too alien for me to get my mind around. What would be the likely ground level wind movement at the Phoenix site when the freeze starts? Lots of horizontal movement of ice crystals or more of a vertical deposition?

Posted by: marsophile Sep 25 2008, 11:46 PM

If there is some slack in the wires connecting the solar panels to the spacecraft, then maybe the panels can break off and fall to the ground, but still function again when the Spring thaw comes?

Perhaps the robot arm could even pile some dirt under the panels to help support them so they won't break off, if they are not too high above the ground...

Posted by: PDP8E Sep 26 2008, 07:20 PM

I downloaded a little 'gif animator' (I wont tell you which one, you will just have to slueth it out )

Here are some clouds going by Phoenix as she looked for dust devils

Posted by: john_s Sep 26 2008, 09:25 PM

That's a seriously cloudy sky. I wonder what it's doing to the solar power levels?

John.

Posted by: Stu Sep 28 2008, 06:01 AM

Been away for a couple of days - enjoyed unexpected stay at a http://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/featured/castle_of_park.htm... as you do... saw a stunningly clear and dark sky last night, wow, I'd forgotten what one looked like, to be honest - so catching up Big Time here...

First things first: NAAAJFF ("Not Accurate At All, Just For Fun") colourisation of dust grains on Sol 121...

Edit: there are some more "Disco Dancin' Dust Grains!" in my Gallery http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/image-fest-2, if anyone wants a look. I'm sure Dan can produce a much better, 'stabilised' version but either PS Elements doesn't have that facility or, after looking for half an hour, I'm just too stoopid to find it...

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 28 2008, 03:35 PM

Awh, shucks. Flattery will get you everywhere.

Posted by: Stu Sep 28 2008, 03:51 PM

That's what I was counting on...

Nice job, Dan... why am I reminded of one of those Monty Python animations with people shuffling along..?

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 28 2008, 03:57 PM

Actually I was picturing little cartoon characters like talking raisins, with helium voices crying out, "save, us, save us!"

Posted by: climber Sep 28 2008, 04:01 PM

To me, it looks like somebody coming back from the beach with a Jeans with some sand on it...

Posted by: Stu Sep 28 2008, 04:19 PM

Peter Smith: "Curses, we're busted! They figured out that we didn't go to Mars, we faked the whole thing like in Capricorn One when we found out that the springs in the TEGA doors were actually from old slinkies... I knew those close-ups of Steve Squyres' dirty jean pockets would give the game away eventually...!!!"

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 28 2008, 05:20 PM

"Boil that dust grain! Boil that dust grain! Boil! Boil! Boil! Boil!"



-the other Doug

Posted by: Deimos Sep 28 2008, 10:22 PM

Fortunately for power, clouds are sporadic and concentrate in the mornings (that movie is early afternoon). Optical depth measurements have typically been low, even the afternoon of the movie.

I hope Jim Whiteway gets a chance to talk about clouds and such at the press conference.

Posted by: Fran Ontanaya Sep 29 2008, 01:57 AM

There are 4 RGB sets of the same sample.

I think I've seen already several green grains (olivine?) that seem to have a sandy core.

Posted by: climber Sep 29 2008, 05:29 AM

...of which you're showing two "scoops". Look like vanila-strawberry color to me

Posted by: Fran Ontanaya Sep 29 2008, 06:15 AM

MECA colors won't look martian, anyway. Maybe we should rename the Northern Plains to the Vanilla-Strawberry Plains.

Posted by: Stu Sep 29 2008, 06:37 AM

... or that hideous "Tooti Frutti" ice cream with the coloured, hard bits of What-the-hell-is-that? embedded in it...

Posted by: Ipparchus Sep 29 2008, 12:16 PM

When is the Phoenix team going to deliver the last TEGA sample? 30th September or later? according to their energy levels until when is this possible? Now we should wait the next sample to be from "Upper Cupboard"(ice sample)? in which oven are they going to drop it? are the previous two deliveries, from "Snow White" and OFB successful?

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 29 2008, 12:31 PM

I think they didn't put out news releases about all that so they'd have some things to talk about at the briefing today.

Phoenix Lander Update Briefing: Monday, September 29

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html:



http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html (or http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/nasa/index.html or http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1368163)
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html?param=media

Posted by: Stu Sep 29 2008, 02:04 PM

More colourised microscope images http://phoenixpics.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/dusty-123 if anyone wants a look... as usual, just for fun, not claiming colour or science accuracy.

Posted by: HughFromAlice Sep 29 2008, 06:51 PM

Just tuned in to the NASA webcast. They have started the Q & A after the presentation. I'm in a rush as I have to start work but from the first Qs looks like they have found C Carbonate. Possibly around 7 to 8% according to prelim analysis. Possible P Silicates found in trace amounts. Boyton - if organics there then not v much.

Suggestive of past interaction with water. How does this square with perchorate findings (little or no water)?

This data is enough to 'start rewriting the book of Martian geochem'.

Annoying but I've got to go...... but sounds like exciting stuff. I'm sure we'll be having a full discussion on this and Emily and AJS Rayl from Planetary Society will keep us up to date........

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 29 2008, 06:57 PM

Actually, Hugh, you've captured nearly all the news from this press briefing! The neatest bit I heard was the presentation of the MET team showing evidence for high-altitude snow falling -- they said they'll keep watching to see if any of it reaches the ground.

--Emily

Posted by: 1101001 Sep 29 2008, 07:16 PM

Release: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1886 (September 29)

My own inept live transcript -- with connection glitches -- begins at http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/78062-phoenix-mars-extended-mission-5.html#post1333550

Posted by: Pertinax Sep 29 2008, 07:49 PM

Virga!!

I missed the conference sadly. Was there a not as to what kind of snow (Water vs Dry Ice)?

[edit: seeing the link above, one seems left at the assumption of water ice snow, without such being explicitly stated.]



-- Pertinax

Posted by: ilbasso Sep 29 2008, 08:36 PM

"For nearly three months after landing, the sun never went below the horizon at our landing site," said Barry Goldstein, JPL Phoenix project manager. "Now it is gone for more than four hours each night, and the output from our solar panels is dropping each week. Before the end of October, there won't be enough energy to keep using the robotic arm."

Wow, I guess we will have to swallow hard and admit that all good things do indeed come to an end. Phoenix is one of the few "intermediate" lifetime explorers we have been following. There were some probes with very short (and planned to be so) lifetimes, such as the Huygens probe. And we have been spoiled with our hardy friends farther south on Mars, as well as such veterans as Cassini and the Voyagers. In this case, I find myself thinking, "Phoenix, we hardly knew ye!"

Reading the prior discussions hypothesizing about someday finding Phoenix encased in ice reminded me of the final act of Steven Spielberg's "A.I.", when the robots in the far future find our hero in the frozen ocean off of what was once New York. (Hope I didn't spoil the movie for anyone!)

Posted by: ilbasso Sep 29 2008, 08:39 PM

Can't find the reference now, but I saw it described yesterday as "diamond dust" -

"Diamond dust - This is the name given to the sparkling clouds of tiny ice crystals that appear to fall out of a cloudless sky. The ice crystals can disappear before they reach the ground through a process called sublimation."

Posted by: Fran Ontanaya Sep 29 2008, 08:47 PM

Mmh, does the calcium carbonate either rule out the 'acid water ancient Mars' picture or the 'Mars was wet but not anymore' picture?

They also talked about the possibility of a wet ground when the martian axis was more tilted towards the Sun. But Phoenix is actually at a quite high latitude. How may the Phoenix findings extrapolate to the meridional Northern Plains, with warmer temperatures, if there's any ice under the soil?

For example:
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/HiRISE/hirise_images/all_images/PSP_002439_2265/

Edit: I totally forgot about this... this has been one of my favourite HiRISE images since the beggining of the mission:

http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/HiRISE/hirise_images/all_images/TRA_000856_2265/

Back then I even cropped this section because there was a bright spot that really looked like exposed ice. It even could make sense after seeing Holy Cow:

Posted by: efron_01 Sep 29 2008, 09:10 PM

Well.. the article says "NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander has detected snow falling from Martian clouds."
so not from a cloudless sky. It seems to be real snow.

Posted by: marsbug Sep 29 2008, 09:34 PM

So the soil is now bone dry but has minerals in it that must have formed in the presence of water? Interesting. I'd got the impression that the warming due to mars axial tilt was to slow for the ice to melt , it would simply sublimate and re-condense somewhere else without ever reaching the liquid phase. Is this evidence against that, or could there have been melting from volcanic or impact heat that lasted long enough to leave this impression? There is a large crater just down the plain. How long does the observed amount of calcium carbonate take to form? Mars throws us more mysteries....

Posted by: marsophile Sep 29 2008, 09:51 PM

No information asked or volunteered about nitrogen content in the soil. Since nitrogen seems to be essential for habitability on Earth, why does no one mention this issue? Has TEGA detected any nitrogen?

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 29 2008, 10:25 PM

For some reason a couple of the neat graphics they showed at the briefing haven't made it to the mission websites yet, but I got them from the PIO office and they're in http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001666/ now. Falling snow!

--Emily

Posted by: belleraphon1 Sep 30 2008, 12:19 AM

All..

today's (September 29th, 08) Phoenix press conference can be seen here
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4313&Itemid=1

Craig

Posted by: Aussie Sep 30 2008, 03:45 AM

They note that Phoenix is on a reasonably recent ejecta layer and that the ground is bone dry. (We really need a new word to describe just how dry this is). So the carbonates and clays were almost certainly excavated from the crater and the discovery would seem to be a strong indicator of a warmer wetter far past, but little to do with the current environment in this area, or the salty, acid sulphate environment seen elsewhere.

I'm not sure what the fuss is concerning the high altitude snow. As the temperature drops the vapour must freeze out. Snow, both water and CO2 has been referenced numerous times in analysis of both poles. Interesting in that the LIDAR got such compelling images but surely the 'diamond dust effect' or snow was an expected outcome? I also thought that the Atacama perchlorates were thought to have been formed as aerosols so again no real surprises?

The big surprise is no organics or superoxides. Since organics should be falling from space on a fairly regular basis where are they? I just get the feeling that any real info is being held back for conference papers and learned contributions to Nature, and I look forward to those with great anticipation. The briefing did not in fact say very much at all.

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 30 2008, 05:47 AM

*cough*cough*
Aussie, I really don't think that the Phoenix team is known for 'holding information back'.
As demonstrated recently, they are VERY open when it comes to data and their scientific process.
If they had something important to tell us, they'd say so.

Also, I think that the 'fuss over snow' is justified.
They know that something like "it's snowing on Mars" is media and public outreach gold.
Are you going to get any attention if you just say "we found calcium carbonate".
A snow report is a hook to hang the rest of your science on.

Great and open outreach!

Astro0

Posted by: ConyHigh Sep 30 2008, 11:46 AM

Full inline quote and conspiratorial accusation deleted. Please read the forum rules - ADMIN