Phobos-Grunt Options

[sci44]

FULL INLINE QUOTE REMOVED - ADMIN

Ok, but its interesting to note that its scarcely reported in Western mainstream media - in fact I am pretty certain Phobos-Grunt sample-return has not been reported on the BBC transmitted media (non internet) - so it could be news, at least for some. I will also give the Russians credit for not giving up on a Mars mission, even after setbacks and failures, unlike others. Phobos return was also put forward as a UK mission at one stage.

The fact is, if they pull this off, it will be a bit of a coup..

[Guest_Zvezdichko_*]

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/China-Rus...akeoff_999.html

Phobos-Grunt scheduled to take off in October.

There is some more information about the Chinese subsatellite:

A challenge for Yinghuo-1 during the yearlong mission will be seven periods of 8.8 hours in darkness, when the sun will be obscured by the red planet and the satellite will not receive solar energy, Chen said.

Also, there's some information that Chang'e 2 may launch this year. (However, after the almost total silence surrounding Chang-e 1 I already lost interest in this yet another orbiter - at least till Chang-e lander lands).

[Guest_Zvezdichko_*]

http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=244836&cid=10

Team reports they are on schedule and they are still going to launch this year.

It's confirmed that Phobos-Grunt will carry microorganisms.

[Paolo]

http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=244836&cid=10

Interesting video. There are nice shots of the probe, its Fregat stage and of the YH-1 "cage". Note also that the video confirms that Zenith will be used as a launcher instead of Soyuz-Fregat.
The two men interviewed are Lavochkin's Georgi Polischuk and IKI's Lev Zelenyi. The man playing with Phobos' model is not identified.

[New Ocean]

This has to be one of the most daring missions in the history of deep space exploration. And all for what, half the price of the one season Phoenix? Maybe there is something to be said for faster better cheaper, that is if it works. Which it probably wont

[Guest_Zvezdichko_*]

USSR has experience in sample return missions. i remain optimistic...

[mps]

And all for what, half the price of the one season Phoenix? Maybe there is something to be said for faster better cheaper, that is if it works.

I suspect its lower cost has little to do with faster-cheaper-better approach. The labor costs in Russia are presumably much lower than in U.S.

[tedstryk]

I suspect its lower cost has little to do with faster-cheaper-better approach. The labor costs in Russia are presumably much lower than in U.S.

There is also, from what I understand, some Phobos-88 hardware being used.

[elakdawalla]

Really? That would put Phoenix to shame, in terms of reuse of mothballed hardware. I guess it depends on how much hardware you're talking about -- there are other missions that used leftover bits from other missions. Notably the Cassini WAC which uses optics built as flight spares for Voyager.

--Emily

[SFJCody]

Notably the Cassini WAC which uses optics built as flight spares for Voyager.

Wasn't the Voyager imaging system itself copied from Mariner 10's imager? Spaceflight is full of hand-me-downs! IIRC Voyager was originally going to have something similar to the Pioneer 10/11 Imaging Photopolarimeter

[Guest_Enceladus75_*]

And wasn't Magellan's main radio dish a flight spare from the Voyagers? It makes sense to use old or mothballed spacecraft hardware if it's in perfectly good order, to reduce costs. Galileo went for a new and risky umbrella type radio dish which ended up failing. I doubt that design will ever be used again.

IIRC Voyager was originally going to have something similar to the Pioneer 10/11 Imaging Photopolarimeter

From what we learned from Voyager's stunningly beautiful images, it would have been criminal to have done that.



I wish Phobos Grunt every success!

[dvandorn]

Galileo went for a new and risky umbrella type radio dish which ended up failing. I doubt that design will ever be used again.

Actually, that deployable umbrella-dish antenna design wasn't new for Galileo, it had been used dozens of times on big communications satellites. It was considered pretty low-risk, it had worked pretty much every time it had been used.

Galileo's antenna failed, more than likely, because its deployment mechanism was lubricated, the antenna stowed, and then the whole thing was unexpectedly put in storage for something like six years. The antenna was never unstowed and "exercised" after storage prior to flight; the lubricants apparently dried out and the deployment mechanism stuck irretrievably.

There's normally nothing wrong with using backup flight hardware on later vehicles. You just have to make certain it still works...

-the other Doug

[Geert]

Posted on request of James Oberg:

Announcing the LPI [Houston] Seminar Schedule for February:
(Note: Effective January 1, 2009, LPI seminars will be held on Thursdays, 3:00 PM in the Lecture Hall, followed by refreshments at 4:00 PM).

Thursday, February 5, 2009
James Oberg, Space Consultant
Russia's Fobos-Grunt sample return mission -- Plans, Context, Prospects



The rumor mill is near-unanimous that the October launch window is impossible. But this isn't 1996 and Mars-96 -- there are real resources available, and experienced people who are reasonably well paid. There's top government support [this may not be a good thing, if the political pressure is greater than the assigned resources]. There's a major diplomatic component -- the Chinese subsatellite.

Are there any realistic scenarios in which the launch can occur as scheduled with a reasonable chance of success, or at least partial success? Is a scaled back mission -- lander and subsatellite but no return stage this time -- plausible?

Inquiring minds want to know. Non-attributable first- and second-hand stories are solicited.

Professionally and personally, I think we all want this mission to survive and succeed, and after more than two decades for Russia to resume its rightful role as a major player in interplanetary exploration. Is there any foreign influence on what Moscow would consider a face-saving and feasible scale-down of the project to enhance the benefit to science of a mission this year?



Please pass and post this notice around the Mars community....

jim O
www.jamesoberg.com

Additional info received from James Oberg:

please post my note, with my acknowledgement
of their many excellent links to illustrative materials.

You can also post this draft slide from the talk, which follows
a list of all the rumors of delays. It is labeled "Reasons for optimism":


.THE DIFFICULT ROAD TO MARS (V. G. Perminov, Lavochkin Design Bureau)
. "As soon as the Russian economy is stabilized, young creative minds who have already developed [an] original approach to Mars and Phobos exploration will overcome and succeed".

. Budget environment is entirely unlike situation in late 1980s and early 1990's.
. Context and causes of past failures may be under control, either absent or largely overcome already (to be discussed)
. Larger booster may relieve over-complex ascent sequence and out-of-design demands on spacecraft propulsion/guidance systems
. Spacecraft and mission design is modular enough to allow handling of late-in-preparation simplification and offloading

Then I discuss potential down-moding options in the final months, such as removing the return stage and building a new spacecraft for a later window, for that mission.

Do we ever get ANY indication of 'cost' of these missions?

Regards,


Geert

[Pavel]

http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=244836&cid=10

Here's my translation. I tried to keep all ambiguity of the original, so please don't blame me

Earth bacteria to be sent to Mars satellite

Russia prepares a unique space expedition. An interplanetary spacecraft is going to a Mars' satellite in October this year, said the head of the Russian Space agency Anatoly Perminov. Nobody has ever got to Phobos. Two attempts by the Soviet spacecraft failed. And now Russia decides to conquer Phobos, surprising the Universe.

Lavochkin design bureau, where the Russian Moon program was born, it now finishing assembly of the new interplanetary spacecraft. It weighs almost 10 tonnes.

The worst days of total lack of money are hopefully over. Russian researchers are getting ready to encounter "Fear" and "Dread", that is the Mars satellites, Phobos and Deimos. The Russian spacecraft will fly by Deimos to land on Phobos. No projects of that scale have existed since the Soviet days.

The satellite of Mars looks like a giant potato, 20-30 kilometers in size. The hardest part is to find a place for landing on its crater covered surface.

Unlike the big planets, the asteroid (sic) lacks gravity (sic), so the spacecraft can simply bounce off its surface. "We need to press it during the landing, or it will bound around," says Leo Zeleny, head of the Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences.

After the successful landing, 11 months after the launch, the spacecraft starts collecting the ground samples. For the first time in history, scientists will have an opportunity to study composition of such a large asteroid. The ground sample will move to the return capsule and will go back to Earth. The main station will continue researching Phobos. It will air TV pictures of the small planet's (sic) surface. The bacteria sent to live on the asteroid will return to Earth with the ground sample.

"We'll see how that bacterial culture will survive the three year long spaceflight, thus testing the theory of panspermia, that is spead of life through space," Leo Zeleny said.

The launch of "Phobos-Grunt" by the Zenit rocket is planned for October this year. That's when the launch window opens for getting to Mars faster.

The developers of the project are in a hurry, as the next window will only open two years later. "We are following the schedule. The schedule is tight. We are working in two shifts now," said Georgy Polischuk, the general constructor and the general director of the Lavochkin design bureau.

The main part of the spacecraft is the engine block "Flagman", the newest Russian development, which will form the foundation for our further space expeditions. "After Phobos, there will be two more Mars spacecraft based on the same hardware, with landing and a rover. And three missions to the Moon. And to Venus in year 2015," Georgy Polischuk said.

The money for the planetary exploration has been provided. The Mars rovers were built earlier. They have been collecting dust while waiting for the better days. The constructors are even sure that the global economic crisis won't disrupt the space plans.

[mps]

A interesting article indeed. I think that the Universe is most surprised by the fact, that there are Russian Mars rovers collecting dust and waiting for better days. Actual flight hardware? It's hard for me to believe that. Maybe they are talking about prototypes?