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Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ Opportunity _ Paolo's Plunge

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 11 2007, 07:53 AM

Hi all,

Like every morning, I've just checked the latest info on the pancam web looking for the current and immediate future imaging plan and ...
Stay tuned and start Alt-F5'ing the exploratorium page at 19:35 UTC or so because today might be the day. Sol 1291 is a driving sol!

wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 11 2007, 09:35 AM

I think your right Tesh.

This line is telling:

CODE
01291::p2360::12::16::0::0::16::2::34::pancam_mid_drive_4x1_L257R2


A colour pancam mosaic mid-drive, very unusual.

Looks like we are going to see a repeat of sol 133 at Endurance; get all six wheels in, take some pictures, then back right out again.

Hold on to your seats...

Posted by: Stu Sep 11 2007, 09:42 AM

Not going to make a huge deal out of it... many moving and powerful words will be written elsewhere today about both the event itself and the anniversary... but I think it will be very fitting, in a way, if Oppy drives into VC today, carrying with her a small piece of one of the Twin Towers, as described in Steve's excellent book.




Hope no-one minds me pointing that out, but I thought we should mark the anniversary in some way.




Right, go get 'em Oppy! We're with you! smile.gif

Posted by: OWW Sep 11 2007, 09:58 AM

That's a picture from Spirit.

Posted by: Stu Sep 11 2007, 10:03 AM

I know it is, thanks, but both rovers carry a piece, and that's the best view I've found of one of them so far.

Posted by: sattrackpro Sep 11 2007, 01:21 PM

QUOTE (Stu @ Sep 11 2007, 02:42 AM) *
...I think it will be very fitting, in a way, if Oppy drives into VC today, carrying with her a small piece of one of the Twin Towers, as described in Steve's excellent book.
Wow... I did not know that, Stu - 'twould indeed be most fitting. Thanks for noting this little known (probably) fact.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 11 2007, 02:04 PM

The WTC metal is the plate attached to the back of the RAT motor casing with the US flag on it.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/015/2P127692170EFF0309P2547L5M1.JPG

EDIT just noticed Stu's image http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=4507&st=60#

Posted by: Stu Sep 11 2007, 02:20 PM

Yep, that's the one, as labelled on the pic in my original posting.

The story of how those pieces of the WTC came to be on Mars is one of the most moving parts of the "Roving Mars" book, in my opinion, gives a very human dimension to the mission.

Posted by: Del Palmer Sep 11 2007, 03:58 PM

QUOTE (sattrackpro @ Sep 11 2007, 02:21 PM) *
Wow... I did not know that, Stu - 'twould indeed be most fitting. Thanks for noting this little known (probably) fact.


The RAT WTC memorial was discussed at length on NASA TV by the RAT team in 2004, so I'm not sure one could consider it a little-known fact. wink.gif

The builder of the RAT was Honeybee Robotics -- their offices are just a few blocks from the WTC site.

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 11 2007, 08:15 PM

QUOTE (DEChengst @ Sep 11 2007, 09:45 PM) *
WOOHOO!

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/forward_hazcam/2007-09-11/1F242803301EFF86ISP1212L0M1.JPG


Given this fhazcam image and http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/rear_hazcam/2007-09-11/1R242803234EFF86ISP1312R0M1.JPG from the rhazcam, I think we are actually on top of the drift.

Edited: In the same fhazcam we can see the tracks telling that Opportunity got at least its front wheels on the slope.

PS: I'm replying here on "Back to work" to keep this one as the active thread.

Posted by: BrianL Sep 11 2007, 08:32 PM

Looks that way to me too, and makes sense to test the driveability of the ripple before contemplating any movement into the crater. See if there are traction issues that could affect backing out.

Brian

Posted by: mhoward Sep 11 2007, 08:44 PM

It looks like the drift is not an issue. That's great news.

Posted by: Tman Sep 11 2007, 08:53 PM

Yeah, though it seems Oppy got a bit slippage while driving back, but it's not a problem I think.

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 11 2007, 08:57 PM

A clean path right ahead! biggrin.gif
May I call this mosaic "Paolo's plunge site"



> Yeah, but it seems Oppy got a bit slippage while driving back, though it's not a problem I think.

Think the same. The tracks reminds me of Purgatory, in that section where Opportunity was starting to slip.

Posted by: Indian3000 Sep 11 2007, 09:14 PM

and my version



and vertial projection


Posted by: Indian3000 Sep 11 2007, 09:30 PM

and a other 360° projection with front and rear cam


Posted by: hortonheardawho Sep 11 2007, 09:30 PM

sol 1291 R0 1x3:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/1361697513/


L0 1x3 http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/1361696275/


All the images have sky-flat dusty lens corrections.

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 11 2007, 10:01 PM

You know, I think we may have gone further in than the tracks suggest. The tracks end where the surface transitions to rock and so Oppy could have gone further without making any (hazcam visible) tracks.

The tracking database suggests that Oppy backed up ~3.8m, that's over twice her length, out from inside Victoria (and about 70cm vertical decent/ascent). This could be inaccurate if there had been much slippage but it doesn't look that way to me as both the in and out data are consistent.

EDIT: A quick bit of photogrammetry seems to confirm this, objects are about 3m closer in the mid-drive pancams than in the end of drive navcams.

Oppy really did go right into Victoria! smile.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif

Take that Cassini!

James

Posted by: mhoward Sep 11 2007, 11:06 PM

I can't wait to get a look at that tracking data. Later this evening... biggrin.gif

Posted by: alan Sep 12 2007, 12:10 AM

Mars rover begins risky downward drive
Opportunity takes a ‘toe dip’ into the biggest crater it’s ever visited

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20726395/

Posted by: mhoward Sep 12 2007, 12:51 AM

QUOTE (alan @ Sep 12 2007, 12:10 AM) *
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20726395/


Hmm... that mosaic looks suspiciously non-JPL.

Posted by: mhoward Sep 12 2007, 12:56 AM

I don't know how accurate the tracking data is, but I know I like it wink.gif

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1362554319&size=l

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1362571329&context=photostream&size=l

And it looks about right to me, actually.

Posted by: mhoward Sep 12 2007, 01:42 AM

On closer inspection, I agree it looks like there was some slippage on the way out. And yet the tracking data seems to be about right. I think we are currently parked on top of the drift, so maybe we didn't make it out quite all the way yet. Looking forward to some more images or news.

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1363700408&size=l

Posted by: mhoward Sep 12 2007, 02:20 AM

Ah, looks like the news is already here. That's what I get for not checking the official site.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-99b

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 12 2007, 04:29 AM

QUOTE (Stu @ Sep 11 2007, 04:42 AM) *
Not going to make a huge deal out of it... many moving and powerful words will be written elsewhere today about both the event itself and the anniversary... but I think it will be very fitting, in a way, if Oppy drives into VC today, carrying with her a small piece of one of the Twin Towers, as described in Steve's excellent book.




Hope no-one minds me pointing that out, but I thought we should mark the anniversary in some way.
Right, go get 'em Oppy! We're with you! smile.gif
Stu: ...many powerful words, indeed. Thank you very much for pointing out the significance of this date for the crater entry, and the http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2004/11/world_trade_cen.html. Although it was intended to be a "quiet tribute," the fact that it wasn't noted elsewhere today is sad.

Posted by: Geographer Sep 12 2007, 07:23 AM

Damn, these freakin' rovers!! They put such a smile on my face. Nearly four years on and they're still going. No dunes, sandstorms, or Martian winters can stop these badasses.

Posted by: mhoward Sep 13 2007, 03:31 AM

Here's a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWAvEZtCSDM, according to the tracking data. I'll do a nicer one sometime.

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 13 2007, 08:19 AM

Ok. Sol 1291 was the day in which Opportunity moved into and out of this slope.
But when will be the day to go IN to stay there? It's today, sol 1293!

CODE
01293::p1151::04::2::0::0::2::0::4::front_hazcam_idd_unstow_doc
01293::p1212::09::2::0::0::2::0::4::front_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
01293::p1312::07::2::0::0::2::0::4::rear_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
01293::p1909::08::8::0::0::8::0::16::navcam_4x1_RVRAZ_0_Elneg17_3bpp
01293::p2361::12::6::0::0::6::1::13::pancam_duck_bay_change_detection_L256
01293::p2362::12::16::0::0::16::2::34::pancam_drive_dir_4x1_L257R1
01293::p2363::12::8::0::0::8::2::18::pancam_drive_target_L257R1


The images might hit the exploratorium around 20:35 UTC.

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 13 2007, 01:19 PM

Because of Iapetus I still haven't got a dust compensation flat fielding routine up and running, so this isn't great.

It is however our first view taken from inside Victoria and shows (I think) a good part of the ground the Oppy will be driving over on this first decent.

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~jcanvin/mer/index.html#B1291

James

Posted by: mhoward Sep 13 2007, 01:50 PM

QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 13 2007, 01:19 PM) *
Because of Iapetus I still haven't got a dust compensation flat fielding routine up and running, so this isn't great.


When you get said dust compensation routine up and running, some of use would be interested in hearing the technical details... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: hortonheardawho Sep 13 2007, 02:25 PM

sol 1291 L257 1x4:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/1369282320/

Without at least a 1/3 overlap I don't think a dust compensation flat field mask will work on the 8 bit JPG data.

I hope that the http://pancam.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/images.html will have a dust correction.

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 13 2007, 02:28 PM

QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 13 2007, 03:19 PM) *
It is however our first view taken from inside Victoria


... and this one might be the second. It's the navcam mosaic taken at the same position inside VC; same pointing but a bigger fov.


Posted by: SpaceListener Sep 13 2007, 03:12 PM

How can the entry surface of Duck Bay is so smooth, no boulders or stones? It seems that something has ironed it.

Posted by: climber Sep 13 2007, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (SpaceListener @ Sep 13 2007, 05:12 PM) *
How can the entry surface of Duck Bay is so smooth, no boulders or stones? It seems that something has ironed it.

Endurance was as smooth as this, wasn'it?

Posted by: stevesliva Sep 13 2007, 05:17 PM

The smoothness of the bays versus the boulder-strewn capes... not sure there is any consensus there!

Look for the discussions on "capes" and "bays" that are the terms used to describe Victoria Crater's scalloped appearance.

Posted by: SpaceListener Sep 13 2007, 08:18 PM

QUOTE (climber @ Sep 13 2007, 10:45 AM) *
Endurance was as smooth as this, wasn'it?

Yes, indeed, Endurance's lateral surface is similar to Victoria's bay (no Capes). This case puzzles me about these stones were laid down as smooth as possible.

The only idea that is arised in my mind: "When that place was so hot soon after an asteroid had impacted. It was like a magma and the left stones from the asteroid impact were able to accommodate to the Mars' gravity."

Posted by: kenny Sep 13 2007, 08:41 PM

We discussed this issue, the apparently planed smoothness of the slopes irrespective of the irregular composition of mixed boulders and matrix, quite a while back and I can't yet find where. But the answer we came to was aeons of erosion by wind and wind-borne dust grains, slowly grinding the jumbled boulders and ejecta mass down into a plane surface. It was deposited lumpy and irregular by the impact, then slowly smoothed down over an enormous period of time.

Kenny

Posted by: dburt Sep 13 2007, 08:42 PM

An alternative hypothesis for Victoria is that the bays were long ago smoothed by wind abrasion, whereas the steeper capes are still shedding debris. Victoria may well be older than Endurance, most of which, except where Oppy entered, was relatively steep.
- HDP Don

Edit: Ooops. Kenny, we both answered "wind" at the same time. Obviously, I was referring to post #36 above. Incidentally, one could equally well (probably better) argue that Endurance is older than Victoria, and the morphological differences mainly result from Endurance's smaller size.

Posted by: .dk Sep 13 2007, 08:57 PM

We are inside! smile.gif

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/rear_hazcam/2007-09-13/1R242973306EFF86JZP1312L0M1.JPG

Posted by: Indian3000 Sep 13 2007, 09:38 PM

sol 1293


Posted by: djellison Sep 13 2007, 09:39 PM

A bit of photoshop, a lot of MMB..the view of the 'dip'

Doug

 

Posted by: Indian3000 Sep 13 2007, 09:40 PM

and front rear cam 360°


Posted by: WindyT Sep 13 2007, 10:36 PM

QUOTE (Indian3000 @ Sep 13 2007, 09:38 PM) *
sol 1293
Love the fractures that seem to run straight down into the crater. That one right in the center of your composite, especially. Post crater formation, yes?

Posted by: Indian3000 Sep 14 2007, 06:49 AM

a manual merge between panorama sol 1291 and sol 1293


Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 14 2007, 07:58 AM

What about the slope angle?
What I've got from the mobility data tells me the rover is on a (at least) 15º slope.

Posted by: djellison Sep 14 2007, 12:21 PM

I call this one... dip and dive smile.gif

 dip_and_in_opp.mov ( 435.72K ) : 789
 

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 14 2007, 01:29 PM

Ooh, I'm liking that one Doug. smile.gif wheel.gif

I've (kind of) got something working to correct for dust on the lens, still a lot of work to be done, not far past 'proof of concept' at the moment. I'm reposting the sol 1291 both because even my current crude routine improves the mosaic a lot and also, by some fluke this process has also outputted (to my eye) a much more pleasing colour.

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~jcanvin/mer/index.html#B1291F

Right, must dash, going away for the weekend...

James

Posted by: mhoward Sep 14 2007, 04:45 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Sep 14 2007, 12:21 PM) *
I call this one... dip and dive smile.gif


Nice one, Doug. Getting it to properly hide behind the drift like that must have been a bit of work.

If you turn off the left camera eye checkbox in the panorama settings, you will get a better view there. I've pretty much given up on Oppy's left cameras for now ( sad.gif ), but I'm now de-vignetting the right eye images for her.

Posted by: jvandriel Sep 14 2007, 09:01 PM

For the computer guys,

is it possible to make and publish, here in Unmanned Spaceflight.com,

a small computer programme to correct the dust on the lens

of Opportunity.

It will be much appreciated by a lot of members.

jvandriel

Posted by: alan Sep 15 2007, 02:09 AM

Current Location



Original image can be found here:
http://marswatch.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/991B_cape_verde.html

Posted by: alan Sep 15 2007, 02:45 AM

I wonder how they will maneuver Oppy around the patch of sand in front of her with the stuck steering actuator. They've found an effective way of turning on level terrain, how well will that work on the slope?

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 15 2007, 03:18 AM

QUOTE (alan @ Sep 14 2007, 06:09 PM) *
Current Location


Great perspective Alan. Thanks for digging that up. It's obvious now why they chose this location. There is a clear shot at each of the parent layering sections all the way down to the bottom.

Has anyone tried yet to sync this sequence up visually with the layers identified at Endurance?

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 15 2007, 03:54 AM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Sep 14 2007, 02:58 AM) *
What about the slope angle?
What I've got from the mobility data tells me the rover is on a (at least) 15º slope.
Well, I went back to look at the http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4507&view=findpost&p=97656 I posted a couple of weeks ago, and if you put your location on it and do a little mental interpolation between the contour lines here, 15 degrees looks about right. It should get a little steeper after they make the turn to the right.

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 15 2007, 05:39 AM

I thought the plan was to turn to Oppy's left (our right), Tom. I recall that the planning team had designed a very specific route over to the exposed Cabo Verde cliff faces, and that no straying off the path was going to be allowed. The path was designed to explore the light-colored "bathtub ring" and to keep Oppy on rocky, non-sandy footing.

As I seem to recall, the plan was for Oppy to enter pretty much where she entered, turn to her left at about the level she's at, and stair-step in a couple of legs down to the base of the Cabo Verde cliffs.

Does anyone have any information indicating that this is no longer the plan?

-the other Doug

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 15 2007, 12:49 PM

O'Doug: It was my recollection that the plan was to drive down and to the south, along the contact between the ejecta layer and undisturbed bedrock. At the moment I can't remember where I read that.

Posted by: jvandriel Sep 15 2007, 01:27 PM

Here is the view from Sol 1293 taken inside Victoria

with the R0 Navcam.

jvandriel

 

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 15 2007, 01:28 PM

By the moment I think they will drive almost straight ahead, perhaps slightly to the left to avoid driving with the right side wheels over this patch of sand.
We should know the truth on the evening of sol 1296.

Posted by: SpaceListener Sep 15 2007, 05:01 PM

After studying the Jvandriel's picture to precise about the supposed safe autonomy for Opportunity. The deeper side would be on the north side along the Cabo Verde than the south side. It is possible that Opportunity would be able to transverse over little sand, about 10 centimeters of thick. However, I think that the most interested places are the vertical stones of Cabo Verde and the south side.

Posted by: glennwsmith Sep 15 2007, 05:01 PM

Yes, Alan, nice work. A good complement to Tesheiner's wonderful overhead route maps.

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 16 2007, 06:07 AM

I've revisited the late June and early July discussions and press releases, and it seems that all anyone was prepared to be specific about at that time, in re Oppy's exact preplanned path, was that she would head down to the "bright ring" layer (otherwise referred to as the "bathtub ring") and follow it around, parallel to the crater rim, observing and sampling as it went along. While it would appear that it would be easiest for Oppy to turn to her left and follow the bright layer to Cabo Verde, and while Squyres was very clear that there was a specific path laid out "from which we will not stray," that exact path was never shared with us, the little people...

-the other Doug

Posted by: djellison Sep 16 2007, 07:32 AM

But it was also mentioned that they wouldn't go up to the sides of the capes because of the shadowing (sun and telecoms) they would cause.

Posted by: Oersted Sep 16 2007, 08:31 AM

Ah, I'm sure the intrepid rover team will manage to find the right constellation of sun and communication angles to drive up and put the instruments on a cliff face. We should use the rover to its limits down there.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 16 2007, 05:10 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 15 2007, 10:07 PM) *
Oppy's exact preplanned path, was that she would head down to the "bright ring" layer (otherwise referred to as the "bathtub ring") and follow it around, parallel to the crater rim,

I have no problem with such a plan, but I would hope that the first thing they do is descend as far down the sequences as they can, ratting and sampling as many layers, as low as possible THEN go ahead and investigate along the ancient disconformity.

The dust storms reminded us that every day could be the last one for either rover, and I can't imagine anything more important geologically than a full understanding of the layering sequence as low as we can possibly go.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 16 2007, 06:39 PM

As far as I can tell, the most we know about where Opportunity will go and what she will investigate comes from http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/aw070907p2.xml&headline=Rover%20Ready%20for%20Dangerous%20Descent%20After%20Dust%20Storm&channel=space. They point out that, after the toe dip...

QUOTE
The plan is for the rover, heading south, to then drive 100 ft. into the crater. This will take several days. It will then be commanded tens of meters parallel along the crater wall. The objective will be to reach about a 1-meter-thick white rock layer that cuts through the wall of the entire crater--but at a point where it's easily sampled, not where it's also visible in the high promontories.
I can't see how they can travel parallel to the light band of rock for tens of meters unless Opportunity turns to the south to follow it across the bay.

I think the article also makes clear the initial scientific objective.
QUOTE
With Victoria, "we will really be making the first good vertical slice through an impact ejecta blanket and crater walls on another planet," says Squyres.
Then they go on to say...
QUOTE
This is the original Martian surface layer before the meteorite hit, burying and preserving the layer that was originally directly exposed to the Martian environment. At a minimum, the area is expected to provide direct data on the Martian climate billions of years ago. And even more, it could be (the) "bathtub ring," showing the Martin surface or ground water level at the time. If it's a surface or ground water signature, it will be important to Martian life assessments.

Posted by: fredk Sep 16 2007, 10:47 PM

Thanks a lot for the entry location map, Alan. If anyone would like to visualize Oppy on the slope, Astro0's SFX image http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4337&view=findpost&p=94014 shows the rover in almost exactly it's current location.

Posted by: mhoward Sep 16 2007, 11:32 PM

Here are a couple similar MMB views based on the drive data. The rover position is slightly off, but the scale should be more or less accurate. Astro0 had it pretty much right.

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1393313729&size=l http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1393312499&context=photostream&size=l

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 17 2007, 10:58 AM

Still on the issue of "which will be the next move?" I did a manual stitch of the "drive direction" mosaic from sol 1293 using the little thumbnails available at the pancam web. As this mosaic is usually used to plan the next move(s) it might give us a glimpse of the planned path.



This image correlates with the features in the *rightmost* picture of the http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4570&view=findpost&p=99578, meaning that the plan (at least when these images were taken) is to move right (southeast), not left as I thought before.

Posted by: Bobby Sep 17 2007, 06:30 PM

No new images from The Exploratorium web site since Friday. Is it down or did they take the weekend off???

Hopefully today we will get updated images unsure.gif

Posted by: Sunspot Sep 17 2007, 06:39 PM

QUOTE (Bobby @ Sep 17 2007, 07:30 PM) *
No new images from The Exploratorium web site since Friday. Is it down or did they take the weekend off???

Hopefully today we will get updated images unsure.gif


The Mars Odyssey spacecraft that relays most of the images went into safe mode.

Posted by: djellison Sep 17 2007, 06:40 PM

CODE
0874331189:8 2007-258T13:40:54 ci2262 d:/seq/safe_mode_daily_diagnostics       RELATV 47A47FFE
0874512904:2 2007-260T16:09:28 ci2262 d:/seq/safe_mode_daily_diagnostics       RELATV 47A47FFE
0874513367:2 2007-260T16:17:11 ci3353 d:/seq/map_sm_recovery_reinits           RELATV 97F811A8


260 was yesterday - Oppy safed...nothing to worry about, just one of those things from time to time

Posted by: OWW Sep 17 2007, 08:29 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Sep 17 2007, 06:40 PM) *
260 was yesterday - Oppy safed...nothing to worry about, just one of those things from time to time


I hope you meant Oddy?

Posted by: djellison Sep 17 2007, 09:12 PM

Oops - yup - I did smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: Sunspot Sep 18 2007, 09:16 AM

Are power levels still too low to permit direct transmission of images to Earth?

Posted by: djellison Sep 18 2007, 09:29 AM

They could probably do short DTE sessions, but is it really worth it for the big power they consume and the DSN demand it would have? Better to have a few sit-tight days, full batteries, then on with the fun.

Posted by: mhoward Sep 19 2007, 04:07 AM

Here's another little experimental http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYMzU7aRF34

Posted by: slinted Sep 19 2007, 04:30 AM

QUOTE (mhoward @ Sep 18 2007, 09:07 PM) *
Here's another little experimental http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYMzU7aRF34

Really nice stuff mhoward, that's a great perspective for the dip and entry.

Posted by: fredk Sep 19 2007, 03:38 PM

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Sep 16 2007, 06:39 PM) *
I can't see how they can travel parallel to the light band of rock for tens of meters unless Opportunity turns to the south to follow it across the bay.
I agree with Rocker here. This is the route that makes the most sense, by keeping away from the cliffs and sampling the best defined part of the white layer (at the end of the arrows in my image). From Alan's map, here are two possible routes, the white was my initial guess, but the yellow is a possibility based on the drive direction imagery Tesheiner pointed to:

Or, you never know, since they're driving downhill, maybe they'll drive straight through the patch of sand in front of us!

Posted by: PhilCo126 Sep 19 2007, 05:42 PM

great movie mhoward pancam.gif

Posted by: nprev Sep 19 2007, 11:38 PM

Terrific movie, MHoward!!! smile.gif


Here's a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daiUW_O6gOM&NR=1...how far she's come!

Posted by: fredk Sep 20 2007, 01:48 AM

New images in! On sol 1298 we seem to have arrived at the white layer, http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/forward_hazcam/2007-09-19/1F243419522EFF86L0P1214L0M1.JPG following more or less the first leg of the white line on my projected route above.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 20 2007, 04:06 AM

mhoward: That animation was amazing. Really amazing. smile.gif

My best guess puts Opportunity near the center of fredk's triangle.

Posted by: dilo Sep 20 2007, 05:10 AM

Here a stitch from two left NavCam frames available up to now (Sol1298), showing the white layer:



This is the HazCam contest image where I highlighted the approximate area covered by previous picture:

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 20 2007, 06:47 AM

I thought it might be useful to create a composite image looking at Paolo's Plunge from inside and outside.
Someone might be enterprising enough to identify various features in these images.
Fantasic view so far! smile.gif
Enjoy.
Astro0


Posted by: Sunspot Sep 20 2007, 08:34 AM

I wonder if they are heading for the arrow shaped dark region? You can see the tip of it in the NavCam image.

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 20 2007, 08:51 AM

I would say so, because the driving manouver ended with a slight right turn.
Check this composite below.


Posted by: ilbasso Sep 20 2007, 01:13 PM

Here's my guess

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 20 2007, 01:58 PM

Right on the money! smile.gif

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 21 2007, 11:18 AM

Quick stitch of the sol 1298 drive direction mosaic in L2 (L5 & L7 still to come)



James

Posted by: TheChemist Sep 21 2007, 12:29 PM

This looks like Endurance, minus one detail: the blueberries smile.gif
Where are they ? Have they all rolled down, or are they burried in a deeper layer ?

Posted by: djellison Sep 21 2007, 12:45 PM

Hunt down Steve's lecture to the Open University last year - he talks about Berries on the way to Victoria. Essentially they think that we're up section here - above where the berries have been made.

Doug

Posted by: algorimancer Sep 21 2007, 12:51 PM

QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 21 2007, 06:18 AM) *
Quick stitch of the sol 1298 drive direction...
James

I'll be very curious to learn the difference between this bright layer and the darker layer further down. Evaporite versus lack of evaporite? Differing salts in the evaporites? From a distance, this seems the major geological feature in the bedrock hereabouts. Has MiniTES weighed-in on the question yet? Or has Oppy been too far away?

Posted by: helvick Sep 21 2007, 01:30 PM

If Oppy is currently "above where the berries were made" then she would have to be higher than the northern edge of the crater since the surfaces in and around Bahia Blanca and The Valley Without Peril were covered in berries (as is fairly clear http://astrosurf.com/merimages/Opportunity/Panoramas_couleur/ValleyWithoutPeril-Sol1131-medres.jpg ). I don't think we are higher but I'm open to correction.

Posted by: djellison Sep 21 2007, 01:48 PM

Just remembering an early interpretation of the berry distro - not saying it explains everything we see. Covered in berries doesn't mean full of berries (although that image would suggest some berries erroding out of rock) . It's no secret that the berries seen within rocks got smaller, and then vanished, as we headed south from Endurance.

Doug

Posted by: Del Palmer Sep 21 2007, 01:58 PM

QUOTE (TheChemist @ Sep 21 2007, 12:29 PM) *
This looks like Endurance, minus one detail: the blueberries smile.gif


Minus the RAT holes, too. When Steve said they wouldn't deviate from the path to the band, he really meant it...

Posted by: TheChemist Sep 21 2007, 02:02 PM

Thanks Doug, I remember I watched that at the time, and I actually discovered the talk on my hard drive. smile.gif
So the berry layer should be 5-10m lower in the crater, as SS mentioned. It would be nice to see it as we go deep down. Go girl wheel.gif

PS. I just saw helvick's post. SS said in the talk that berries were thrown out during victoria's creation and that's why they reappeared once we got close to the crater. So still, the berry layer should be found deeper inside the crater.

Posted by: climber Sep 21 2007, 04:27 PM

I don't know whether we should be surprised or not about how agressive they're driving into VC as compared to Endurance.
In one hand, they've got confidence in Oppy's capabilities increases since she left Endurance + I guess they've prioritized the white layer.
On this other hand, don't we have any interest in brushing/rating = studing what lay between the rim and the whiter layer ?
Thanks

Posted by: Floyd Sep 21 2007, 07:43 PM

The layer above the white layer is just jumbled ejectra. Some is from deep in the crater, but there is no way to tell from what depth. So, start looking at the old top--the white layer--and then examine deeper layers further in VC.

Posted by: alan Sep 21 2007, 07:55 PM

This is the first time they've had an opportunity to examine an ejecta layer on Mars. It deserves closer study.

Posted by: Shaka Sep 21 2007, 08:45 PM

I agree that the ejecta layer is worth studying, but after we have studied the deeper, intact layers. It will be relatively easy to interpret the chronology of intact layers, and to recognize significant past events that precede those we have already seen in Endurance and elsewhere. It is the deepest intact layers that offer us the best chance of major discoveries, and we should proceed there with some dispatch (granted that Oppy's lifetime will be finite). After we know what's at the deepest exposures, we can then work our way systematically back up the section, filling in the blanks and ultimately doing a leisurely perusal of the ejecta blocks, being better able then to recognize their probable stratigraphic origins, including any that might be from deeper than the intact exposure.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 21 2007, 08:48 PM

I agree with Shaka.

Posted by: climber Sep 21 2007, 09:14 PM

QUOTE (Shaka @ Sep 21 2007, 10:45 PM) *
After we know what's at the deepest exposures, we can then work our way systematically back up the section, filling in the blanks and ultimately doing a leisurely perusal of the ejecta blocks

I agree too, best thing is to focus. But anyway, I'm a bit surprised they didn't even stop for one sample! May be they'll get back up before plunging deaper ?

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 22 2007, 04:44 AM

I have to disagree with Alan -- this is not the first ejecta blanket we've had a chance to study. The first couple of meters down into Endurance were what Squyres called a "dog's breakfast" of jumbled ejecta, and Oppy also skipped down past that until she got down into the intact layered stratigraphy.

The whole point is that intact bedrock tells you a much more complete story than jumbled ejecta. Yes, the science teams *may* take a good look at anything they see in the jumbled ejecta as they exit the crater that looks different or unusual, but even if they do, they'll have no clue from what stratigraphic section anything in the ejecta came. So simply, from a geological standpoint, it makes a lot more sense to study the intact bedrock.

-the other Doug

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 22 2007, 05:30 AM

Ha! A dog's breakfast? I missed that comment. If you could provide a link to that, I would be most appreciative. laugh.gif
I don't really see a lot of value in RATing and analyzing random ejecta blocks, unless of course, we come across something new and completely different. But I do recall a previous comment from Steve Squyres that this would be an opportunity to study a cross section through an impact blanket, so we may eventually see some investigations in the jumbled ejecta. It seems though, that the MER team has expressed more interest in the thin, white layer just below the ejecta.

I find their explanation of the interest in that layer fascinating. Just prior to the ancient impact that formed Victoria Crater, the surface of the light layer was the surface of the land in this area. By studying that surface they hope to learn something about the interactions between that surface and the atmosphere/climate that existed billions of years ago, just prior to the impact. It's probably a bit more complicated than that, but I can imagine it should be an interesting contact to investigate. The whole "bathtub ring" analogy has been overused, but there really are a number of geochemical or diagenetic alteration contacts that we need to watch for. The bathtub rings that have been mentioned in various places are subsurface contacts where groundwater has altered the original rock/sediment. The appearance of concretions/berries embedded within undisturbed bedrock is one bathtub ring that is expected.

QUOTE (algorimancer @ Sep 21 2007, 07:51 AM) *
I'll be very curious to learn the difference between this bright layer and the darker layer further down.
I have really been hoping to see the contact between the bright layer and that dark one in detail, too. The color changes and so does the texture of the rock. I can't imagine they would neglect it. From a distance, it resembles the Whatanga contact which was observed in Endurance Crater. That contact is not a stratigraphic contact between two layers deposited at different times. It has been interpreted as a chemical alteration layer associated with the upper, capillary fringe of a paleo-groundwater surface. Here is slinted's color version of that contact from Endurance on sol 310.


If they can find any kind of correlation between the rocks found further north and these in Victoria, it will be an important accomplishment.

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 22 2007, 05:58 AM

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Sep 22 2007, 12:30 AM) *
Ha! A dog's breakfast? I missed that comment. If you could provide a link to that, I would be most appreciative. laugh.gif

I don't have a link, but I do have a cite:

"When you look at the Pancam pictures we took from the top of Karatepe a couple of weeks, ago, the upper part of the slope is a jumbled dog's breakfast, made up of blueberry-laden rocks that look like the same stuff we've been seeing for months. A few meters down the slope, though, everything changes. The rock becomes contiguous and regularly banded, the jumble giving way to intact stratigraphy."

Steve Squyres, "Roving Mars," First Edition (hardback), © 2005 Steven W. Squyres. pp.346-347

-the other Doug

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 22 2007, 08:40 AM

I'm really loving http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/navcam/2007-09-21/1N243420277EFF86L0P1909R0M1.JPG looking back up, with the tracks through the rim ripple/dune on the horizon. pancam.gif smile.gif

Nice view of the 'dog's breakfast' as well. The nice layers in front of us do look like a much more tempting target, I can see why we skipped straight down.

James

Posted by: Oersted Sep 22 2007, 09:12 AM

Yes, that's a great and evocative image jamescanvin!

I must say the dreaded dune on the edge looks wholly unimpressive from here, it barely came above the threads of Oppy's wheels.

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 22 2007, 10:32 AM

And here is the whole panorama.


I did a little trick in order to get the whole 360º view. There is a missing image on either the left and right channels so I had to mix one from the right eye on this left eye panorama. I wasn't sure about the results but autostitch is a really amasing piece of software.

Posted by: mhoward Sep 22 2007, 01:56 PM

What a time for PCTDB to stop updating...

Posted by: fredk Sep 22 2007, 06:33 PM

Thanks for the pan, Tesheiner. Looking towards Verde there's a little "shelf" which had been visible from atop Verde. Navcam shows it really nicely in 3D:


Posted by: Stu Sep 23 2007, 08:28 AM

Attempted to use Autostitch on the latest navcams... lots of layering here... smile.gif


Posted by: Astro0 Sep 23 2007, 01:10 PM

The descent continues...a new SFX image.
Enjoy
Astro0


Posted by: Burmese Sep 23 2007, 06:23 PM

They should use rendered scenes like that as wallpaper backdrops to all their press conferences!

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 24 2007, 07:12 AM

A quick and dirty stitched and colourised view from Opportunity.
What a view!
Enjoy
Astro0


Posted by: dvandorn Sep 24 2007, 07:29 AM

Has everyone managed to come up with flat-field corrections for the horribly dusty optics? Or, dare I say it, are these streak-free pancam mosaics indicative of a major cleaning of those optics?

-the other Doug

Posted by: Astro0 Sep 24 2007, 07:38 AM

otherDoug, I just used the navcam pics for the image above and then a little Photoshop trickery to clean it up.
I don't know if others agree though, the navcam pics do look a little cleaner....may be my imagination though rolleyes.gif
Hopefully others are working on a 'real' fix for the dust problem.
Astro0

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 24 2007, 09:48 AM

I don't think there has been any improvement in the left pancam - same dust model used here.

Sol 1302 two frame L257 'work volume':



James

Posted by: djellison Sep 24 2007, 10:53 AM

I'm almost growing to like the slightly low-contrast romantic haze the dust has brought to the 'picture' smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: PaulM Sep 24 2007, 12:11 PM

Astro0's view of Oppy's current location from Capo Verde seems to show that above and below the white layer are layers which are more resistant to erosion than the white layer. It seems that the undisturbed dune deposits below the white layer and the broken blocks of dune deposits above the white layer stand up to wind erosion much better than the buried "soil" deposits represented by the white layer.

I hope that RAT holes will be drilled in all three layers so that the reasons why the white layer is less resistant than the other two layers will become clear.

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 24 2007, 03:17 PM

Hmm... I'd say just the opposite, Paul. I see the white layer forming a small ledge where Oppy is currently looking at it. The only way a rock layer can form a ledge is if it is *more* resistant to erosion than the layer below it.

-the other Doug

Posted by: jvandriel Sep 24 2007, 05:28 PM

Here is the complete view.

Opportunity looking back.

Panoramic view taken with the R0 Navcam on Sol 1298.

jvandriel


Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 24 2007, 07:48 PM

I see festoons in the "work volume." They are most evident in the top pancam. I wonder if Opportunity will find itself pretty much at the same stratigraphic level as at Endurance and Erebus.

Posted by: dburt Sep 24 2007, 09:57 PM

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Sep 24 2007, 12:48 PM) *
I see festoons in the "work volume." They are most evident in the top pancam. I wonder if Opportunity will find itself pretty much at the same stratigraphic level as at Endurance and Erebus.

I politely disagree, so far. Looking at that photo (from post 116) I see mainly bedding planes intersecting irregular topography, as viewed from above. Look at the right branch of the Y-shaped notch about 40% down from the top, 60% to the right, for example, or the right side of the large notch cutting the top left. Cross-bedding and minor bedding irregularities (waviness) make it tricky to see what's going on, I agree, but so far no festoon- or trough-type cross beds are evident, to me at least.

-- HDP Don

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 25 2007, 04:36 AM

Doctor Burt: I agree that bedding planes intersecting irregular erosional surfaces can often display deceptive appearances. Hopefully I am not making such a mistake. wink.gif The features I was referring to are not as convincing as the Erebus http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=1862," but they look like troughs to me. I wasn't certain from your described locations which features you were referring to. In my attached image I have yellow arrows pointing to the troughs I think you won't have to squint too hard to see.


From the PDT site, I see that this set of images was called "workvolume_column." It's apparently the beginning of the measured stratigraphic column.

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 25 2007, 08:18 AM

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Sep 25 2007, 05:36 AM) *
From the PDT site, I see that this set of images was called "workvolume_column." It's apparently the beginning of the measured stratigraphic column.


My take on it was that 'column' refered to the two frames being one above each other, i.e in one column.

Posted by: dburt Sep 25 2007, 09:41 PM

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Sep 24 2007, 09:36 PM) *
Doctor Burt: I agree that bedding planes intersecting irregular erosional surfaces can often display deceptive appearances. Hopefully I am not making such a mistake. wink.gif The features I was referring to are not as convincing as the Erebus http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=1862," but they look like troughs to me. I wasn't certain from your described locations which features you were referring to. In my attached image I have yellow arrows pointing to the troughs I think you won't have to squint too hard to see.

CR - Inasmuch as Overgaard was Knauth's type example of "normal cross-beds and convex/concave rounded surfaces viewed from above mistaken for festoons" (what a beginning geological mapper might call "sub-horizontal contacts V-ing upstream"), we'll probably have to agree to disagree about that example being "convincing" (I was further convinced that Knauth was right after looking at Overgaard in 3D via a stereo imaging set-up called "GEOWALL"). Clearly, all of the "smile-shaped features" in the lower part of the Overgaard rock photo, referred to in the NASA caption that you linked to, are pointing up cracks in the rock (are V-ing upstream, in other words - and sorry if you lack the geological mapping background to understand my jargon) and thus the "smiles" are optical illusions created by the downward-pointing angle of the Pancam. In any case, thanks for posting the attachment with arrows. Your arrows appear to to point to what I referred to in my original post as "bedding irregularities" - waviness without cross-bedding (i.e., no cross-cutting relations as in real "festoons"). Again, feel free to disagree - the images aren't all that great.

I guess the important point is that real trough-shaped cross-beds ("festoons"), as well as wavy bedding surfaces (what your arrows appear to indicate), can occur in either water-flow or surge-flow rocks, so we probably need to find another, less ambiguous, method of testing whether or not liquid water ever sheet-flowed across the salty horizontal surface of Meridiani.

-- HDP Don

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 26 2007, 04:34 AM

James: You may very well be correct about the image set name, but from my point of view I am expecting them to also begin characterizing the local geologic section, or column.

Doctor Burt: As you suggest, I think we should agree to disagree on this, mainly because neither of us wants to rekindle the great debate. If you'd like, we can continue via email. I am actually a serious fan of the impact surge hypothesis as a theoretical concept for early Martian processes. I am just not convinced it fully explains Meridiani observations.

Inasmuch as the V-ing upstream concept is normally introduced in Geol. 101, it is a well embedded concept for me. I've been a geologist for about 35 years. I've studied Overgaard in 3D anaglyphs, and although its surface does have topographic expression, I think one would be hard-pressed to explain Overgaard's train of nested troughs simply as subhorizontal contacts V-ing upstream. I'll attach an anaglyph of Overgaard for others who may want to look at it in 3D.

Admitedly, the recent "work volume" images really aren't the greatest, and the features I am pointing to are not well defined. But I really think there is more going on there than wavy or irregular bedding. I think I see cross-cutting relationships. Let's just see what we see as the exploration unfolds. Some MIs would help. Supposedly the plan is to travel some tens of meters along this contact. We should get a better feel for what the depositional environment was as we extend our explorations laterally.



The thing that really freaks me out when looking at these rocks is the realization that I have never seen such mildly altered sedimentary rocks that are so old, let alone from another planet. We all really do need to keep an eye on our blinders.

Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 26 2007, 10:31 AM

Oppy moved again tosol (1305). Here is what is in front of us at the new site.

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejcanvin/mer/index.html#B1305

The right side of this image is the same patch of ground as at the top-left of http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4570&view=findpost&p=100496, near where CR was pointing to interesting stuff. smile.gif

James

Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 26 2007, 01:11 PM

It looks like this will be the first place to be "sniffed" with the IDD.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 26 2007, 02:36 PM

In the previous set of pancams it appeared that we might be seeing some patchy occurances of mini-blueberries. These latest pancams show them more convincingly. If so, this would be the top of the hypothetical, blueberry bathtub ring that was expected. The last time we saw this potential geochemical contact was when the berries became very small and eventually disappeared, near or shortly after Erebus, as Opportunity was climbing the section toward "Hell of a View."

Posted by: jvandriel Sep 26 2007, 07:08 PM

The panoramic view taken on Sol 1302

with the R0 Navcam.

jvandriel


Posted by: jvandriel Sep 26 2007, 07:40 PM

Another view taken on Sol 1305

with the R0 Navcam.

jvandriel


Posted by: climber Sep 26 2007, 07:55 PM

Must be a lot easier to Rat than the "Pot of Gold" back at the base of Columbia Hills smile.gif


Posted by: dburt Sep 26 2007, 08:35 PM

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Sep 25 2007, 09:34 PM) *
... I think one would be hard-pressed to explain Overgaard's train of nested troughs simply as subhorizontal contacts V-ing upstream. I'll attach an anaglyph of Overgaard for others who may want to look at it in 3D.
...The thing that really freaks me out when looking at these rocks is the realization that I have never seen such mildly altered sedimentary rocks that are so old, let alone from another planet. We all really do need to keep an eye on our blinders.

Tom - Thanks for the nice anaglyph of Overgaard. When I look at it, I clearly see the topographic irregularities (notches) I referred to in the lower part of the rock - yielding the "smile-shaped features" referred to in the original NASA caption, but only because Pancam views things from 5 feet up (i.e., they are a topographic artifact of the angle of view). Perhaps we agree there. The "nested troughs" area in the upper right part of the rock is a lot trickier because (1) it contains an actual cross-bed (a normal one) rather than simple horizontal planar beds and (2) the edges of some beds are broken off, making bed continuity difficult to follow across notches. Still, the large notch at the far upper right, and the bedding contouring into and around it, is clearly visible, and the other beds likewise can be followed with considerable mental effort. So we continue to agree to disagree.

Regarding your closing comment, "mildly altered" is probably the key phase, especially considering how salty and old these rocks are. To me that very freshness indicates that they have never seen liquid water for any extended period of time, if at all, in contrast to the extant hypothesis of multiple episodes of acid groundwater immersion and even surficial water flow. To my predjudiced eye they look remarkably like some fresh volcanic surge deposits do on Earth, including the very "toothy" or "ashy-looking" edges of the exposed beds (as seen in the excellent panorama of James Canvin's post #127). They sure don't look like any variety of terrestrial sandstone or evaporite I've ever seen (and I think we can agree on that).

Here for your amusement are some actual current ripples in fluvial sand from the Grand Canyon (2003 rafting trip).

Probably not directly comparable, because they seem to have formed in an eddy next to the cliff, but certainly not artifacts of the viewing angle (which was from the side, because unlike the Pancam, I can bend down smile.gif ). BTW, I took that photo in May, 2003, before I had ever even heard of "festoons". I rafted down the Canyon again last July (Knauth organizes trips every year), and looked for similar flow features along the shoreline, but river levels were just too high (twice the normal discharge owing to lots of flash flooding below the dam at Lake Powell). Made for exciting rapids though!

-- HDP Don

Posted by: climber Sep 26 2007, 08:55 PM

Stu,

It appears that Oppy sent a postcard for you : smile.gif
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/pancam/2007-09-25/1P242976205EFF86JZP2363L5M1.JPG

Posted by: climber Sep 26 2007, 11:09 PM

Nasa release : http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-109
So Oppy is tilted 25° and has experienced "only" 10% slipage.
Reading back "Roving Mars" they says that, before entering Endurance, they were confortable up to a little more than 30°. Does somebody know if they ever tried more than that and how far they think they can go with the angle of the slope?
Something else that I don't know is : how much they've tried with a position of the rover perpendicular to the slope which seams to me how Oppy's positioned at this time.

Posted by: mhoward Sep 27 2007, 12:25 AM

PCTDB is back up! biggrin.gif

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1444434523&size=l

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1445295628&size=l

Posted by: fredk Sep 27 2007, 02:08 AM

QUOTE (dburt @ Sep 26 2007, 08:35 PM) *
Probably not directly comparable, because they seem to have formed in an eddy next to the cliff, but certainly not artifacts of the viewing angle (which was from the side, because unlike the Pancam, I can bend down).
As far as viewing angle, surely that was addressed at Overgaard with the stereo and MI imagery? And I mean quantitatively, not just "to my eyes that looks like..." or whatever.

I've heard little about the "festoons" since we were at Erebus - I recall that the claims were fairly strong at the time that these were ripples due to running water. Does anyone know if the proponents are as strong in their convictions today? I know there's still keen interest to find more such features, perhaps even by returning to Erebus or some such heavily eroded crater after Victoria.

Posted by: dburt Sep 27 2007, 04:13 AM

Fredk - As far as I know, the viewing angle was (and must always be) downwards for the Pancam, as for the MI if the camera is arranged perpendicular to a sloping surface that intersects bedding at an angle (in order to maintain focus across the image plane). The only exception would be if it were parked next to a vertical cliff. What the stereo and MI imagery were claimed to show, and what they seemed to show to this admittedly biased geologist (even on CR's anaglyph) disagreed, obviously. CR and I have "agreed to disagree" on this, and let's leave it at that - I don't want this discussion of exciting new Victoria observations to be diverted.

I will point out (soapbox alert!), however, that saying festoon proponents are "strong in their convictions" makes festoonology sound somewhat more like religion than science. As a scientist, I have no convictions (not even criminal ones smile.gif ). I only make testable hypotheses or tentative interpretations. I'm waiting for Oppy to show us features that look somewhat more like real current ripples, such as those I showed from the Grand Canyon. Here's a larger version of that photo, and I apologize for the quality (it was taken in full shade by this relatively inexperienced - a that time - photographer using an earlier generation digicam with a dirty - river splash - lens). The climbing and trough-cross-bedded nature of the ripples are very clearly visible, especially in the central shaded area, as is the fact that the current was moving from the right to the left (or coming from downstream, indicating a near-shore counter-current eddy). Near-shore eddies with reverse current flow are very common along the Colorado River, and the river boatmen utilize them to make easier landings possible.



If Oppy can show me something like that in Victoria, even I might become a believer in current flow (keeping in mind that surge currents apparently can produce similar features smile.gif ). In the meantime, might we at least agree that "festoons" are a rather slender thread on which to be hanging the entire interpretation of Meridiani surface water flow, especially if they aren't even unique to water flow?

-- HDP Don

Posted by: dilo Sep 27 2007, 03:21 PM

A couple of projections from Sol1298 panorama (right NavCam, hand colorization):
vertical:


pseudo-polar:

In the latter, note the deep rover tracks on DB dunes, at 11 o'clock...

Posted by: lyford Sep 27 2007, 05:19 PM

mmmmm.... Victoria doughnut! smile.gif

Posted by: dburt Sep 28 2007, 12:41 AM

QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 26 2007, 03:31 AM) *
Oppy moved again tosol (1305). Here is what is in front of us at the new site...
The right side of this image is the same patch of ground as at the top-left of http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4570&view=findpost&p=100496, near where CR was pointing to interesting stuff. smile.gif

Great panorama, as usual. What I couldn't help noticing in that image was the really ragged (toothed, ripped, torn, ashy-looking, whatever) edges to the right-side bed exposures, as mentioned in my previous reply to CR. Those looked very familiar. For example, compare this Sol 1305 raw image from Oppy:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/1305/1P244038086EFF8700P2374L7M1.JPG
with this Sol 773 image from Spirit, when it was first on top of Home Plate and about to leave:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/773/2P194989818EFFAPDAP2456L6M1.JPG
Rocks with similarly ragged bedding edges were imaged by Spirit on its way back to Home Plate from Low Hill beginning about 9 months later, and are also common in earlier Oppy images. Do these excessively ragged edges simply represent something unique about wind erosion on Mars, or might there might be another explanation? smile.gif Obviously, I think there might be, but with a sample size of only 2 sites, it's really difficult to generalize.

-- HDP Don

Posted by: mhoward Sep 29 2007, 03:20 AM

More sols, more data, so http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrmfA0KO-v0.

Update: Here's a http://www.sendspace.com/file/g2m4i8.

Posted by: jvandriel Sep 30 2007, 02:09 PM

The view looking to the South on Sol 1294.

Taken with the R1 Pancam.

jvandriel


Posted by: jvandriel Sep 30 2007, 02:11 PM

and the view looking to the North on Sol 1294.

Taken with the R1 Pancam.

jvandriel


Posted by: jvandriel Sep 30 2007, 04:46 PM

Here is the first real movie of the dive of Opportunity into Victoria Crater.

Seen through the eye of the Front Hazcam on Sol 1291.

jvandriel


Posted by: jvandriel Sep 30 2007, 04:48 PM

and here seen through the eye of the Rear Hazcam on Sol 1291.

jvandriel


Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 2 2007, 01:19 PM

Wow. Take a look at http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/micro_imager/2007-10-02/. Are those vugs?

Posted by: Sunspot Oct 2 2007, 01:32 PM

QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Oct 2 2007, 02:19 PM) *
Wow. Take a look at http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/micro_imager/2007-10-02/. Are those vugs?


Thats what they look like........... or bird footprints huh.gif

Posted by: djellison Oct 2 2007, 01:41 PM

They do look quite vuggy don't they. Vuggy's a real word, right?

Doug

Posted by: SkyeLab Oct 2 2007, 02:26 PM

Vuggy does appear to be a real word:

Well at least in Texas.... wink.gif

From here:

"Carbonate Classification by Vuggy Pore Space"


http://www.beg.utexas.edu/indassoc/rcrl/rckfabpublic/vps01.htm

Posted by: hortonheardawho Oct 2 2007, 09:01 PM

Oppy sol 1311 colorized MI panorama:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/1472474463/

with links to location and original panorama -- which has links to 3D pairs.

An experimental MI dust correction was applied to the images before autostitching the panorama.

Posted by: Bill Harris Oct 3 2007, 12:50 AM

Brinesplat vugs, happens all the time in Barsoom... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Ant103 Oct 3 2007, 04:27 PM

Hello,

In late for many images, but that's all that I can do now.

http://astrosurf.com/merimages/Images_opportunity-2007.html#Sol1305

I have trying to eliminate dust darkening with a flat picture I've build from a sky left pancam observation. I give you the flat-dust-corrector (not very perfect on all the images, optimised for L2 pics). I'm working on obtain better results (this flat do not correct over-exposure on the left pictures due to a dark part of the image). Work with a simple addition mode.

 

Posted by: dilo Oct 3 2007, 05:46 PM

QUOTE (Ant103 @ Oct 3 2007, 04:27 PM) *
I have trying to eliminate dust darkening with a flat picture I've build from a sky left pancam observation. I give you the flat-dust-corrector (not very perfect on all the images, optimised for L2 pics). I'm working on obtain better results (this flat do not correct over-exposure on the left pictures due to a dark part of the image). Work with a simple addition mode.


Nice tool, Ant!
I tried it and works, however the sum gives a reduced contrast on the right portion (as foreseable). See below for example:

Perhaps, a multiplication flat field would behave better (I'm not sure, however)... what do you think?

Posted by: PaulM Oct 3 2007, 06:44 PM

I read Skyelabs link and it seemed to be saying that vugs in carbonates were often formed by solution by water. This made me think that the vugs in the white band of Victoria crater might be caused by solution by near surface ground water shortly before Victoria formed.

Perhaps there is now evidence of water at merridiani both at say 3.5 billion years ago when the evaporites formed and at say 2 billion years ago when Victoria formed. Perhaps this is part of the same story as the dessication cracks seen at the bottom of Endurance crater.

PS I appologise for multiple posts. It is difficult to post using my mobile phone.

Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 3 2007, 07:05 PM

QUOTE (dilo @ Oct 3 2007, 06:46 PM) *
Perhaps, a multiplication flat field would behave better (I'm not sure, however)... what do you think?


You need to do a bit of both (and the amount is dependent on the amount of stretching). smile.gif

James

Posted by: Malmer Oct 3 2007, 08:24 PM

QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Oct 3 2007, 09:05 PM) *
You need to do a bit of both (and the amount is dependent on the amount of stretching). smile.gif

James



to flatfield compensate an image you just divide the data with a normalized flatfield image. multiplication or addition is just not right in my book...

/mattias

Posted by: ugordan Oct 3 2007, 08:46 PM

QUOTE (Malmer @ Oct 3 2007, 10:24 PM) *
to flatfield compensate an image you just divide the data with a normalized flatfield image. multiplication or addition is just not right in my book...

OR you can multiply with the inverse of the normalized flatfield. wink.gif
The reason it's not as simple as that with jpegged raws is they are histogram stretched and so is the flatfield effect. You'd have to something like stretch the flatfield the same way before dividing to remove the effects, anything else is bound to leave residual noise.

I've entertained an idea that if you had the proper flatfield (by proper I mean it really minimizes high frequency noise and other large scale nonlinearities, but principally noise) and if you had a linearly stretched raw image, in theory you should be able to work out the rough inverse of the histogram stretch by dividing with the flatfield while modifiying lowest and highest DN values until the output residual high frequency noise is minimized. It would then give you the rough initial min. and max. brightness levels before the stretch. Of course, one has to consider what metric (Fourier filtering?) do you use for determining when the residual flatfield noise is the smallest (as opposed to actual high spatial frequency real details). There's also the fact MER images are mostly LUT encoded IIRC, add in JPEG artifacts and this doesn't realistically pan out. Still, it's a thought. Might be only worth it for sky shots which are pretty bland anyway...

Posted by: dot.dk Oct 3 2007, 09:20 PM

Why aren't the image planners just using more overlap and then just cutting away the bad parts? Will take more images to get the same pan, but it will look good smile.gif

Posted by: dburt Oct 3 2007, 10:00 PM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Oct 2 2007, 05:50 PM) *
Brinesplat vugs, happens all the time in Barsoom... rolleyes.gif

Agreed, more or less. laugh.gif Ignoring crystallography, the vugs might represent frost-leached or heavily-hydrated former chloride crystals, such as antarcticite or hydrohalite (both unstable much above the freezing temperature of water), or they might instead represent so-called meridianiite:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/7thmars2007/pdf/3124.pdf
a heavily hydrated magnesium sulfate that is likewise unstable much above freezing, or they might even represent tiny ice crystals that later sublimed. Very difficult to say at this point without more data. Their extremely fine grain size and finely dispersed nature suggests to me that they probably are not normal evaporite crystals, formed by direct crystallization from either liquid surface water or liquid ground water, and likewise that they were never soaked in such warm liquids. They could have formed diagenetically, or immediately after deposition of the originally damp rocks in which they are found. As always, feel free to disagree. smile.gif

BTW, if you look up the MgSO4-H2O phase diagram in that meridianite reference, you should note that the freezing point depression of magnesium sulfate, the most soluble common sulfate, is only about -4 degrees C, in contrast to common chlorides that (in combination with ice) can still form liquid brines at temperatures up to nearly 50 degrees colder. That is why we feel that very cold subsurface brines on Mars, if any, should be strongly enriched in chlorides instead of sulfates (contrary to what is commonly inferred from the sulfate-rich surface mineralogy). The sulfates might be trapped at or near the surface of Mars simply because they cannot easily be frost leached, except at comparatively high temperatures. Again, feel free to disagree. smile.gif

-- HDP Don

Posted by: CosmicRocker Oct 4 2007, 05:22 AM

Meridianiite! blink.gif Thanks for pointing that out. After a little Googling I see that the earthly occurance of the mineral seems to have been http://qnc.queensu.ca/story_loader.php?id=4702546b59667 I recall reading about the garage experiment last year, but hadn't heard about the field discovery. It's a very cool story. I am no mineralogist. Is there any reason to suspect its crystals would fit into the observed vugs?

As for the "vugs," I'll agree that some of the things we are seeing in the recent MIs resemble vugs we saw back at El Capitan in Eagle Crater and other rocks right up to Endurance. But these seem noticeably smaller and less well defined than http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m028.html.

Another thing I can't help but notice is that I really can't identify any original grain outlines in the new MIs. I understand that we are looking down onto the bedding rather than at a cross section of it, but I can't help but wonder if this rock has been significantly altered. I don't know how much the MIs have been degraded by recent dust accumulations on the lens, so that makes interpreting the raws difficult. I'd like to see some MIs of a vertical cross section next.

Posted by: hortonheardawho Oct 4 2007, 04:57 PM

Oppy sol 1294 L257 2x3 panorama:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/1483821263/

Lots of synthesized missing data. I applied a variation of the Ant103 dust mask as a division by the inverted mask plus an offset.

I am ready to give up developing a simple "ACME dust correction" (beep, beep.)

Please, please JPL, apply the dust correction before creating the "raw" JPG images!

Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 4 2007, 06:11 PM

I'm going to wait for the missing data for that one i think.

Here is the view on the other side on the same sol. L7 only at this stage, I'll drop in the colour when it arrives.



James

Posted by: dilo Oct 4 2007, 07:04 PM

QUOTE (hortonheardawho @ Oct 4 2007, 04:57 PM) *
Oppy sol 1294 L257 2x3 panorama:

I too mad(e) a stitch of upper frames only, using Ant103 "flat field" and lot of work attempting to adjust contrast differences (not completely succesfull!):

NB: artificial sky

Posted by: Malmer Oct 4 2007, 07:30 PM

QUOTE
I've entertained an idea that if you had the proper flatfield (by proper I mean it really minimizes high frequency noise and other large scale nonlinearities, but principally noise) and if you had a linearly stretched raw image, in theory you should be able to work out the rough inverse of the histogram stretch by dividing with the flatfield while modifiying lowest and highest DN values until the output residual high frequency noise is minimized. It would then give you the rough initial min. and max. brightness levels before the stretch. Of course, one has to consider what metric (Fourier filtering?) do you use for determining when the residual flatfield noise is the smallest (as opposed to actual high spatial frequency real details). There's also the fact MER images are mostly LUT encoded IIRC, add in JPEG artifacts and this doesn't realistically pan out. Still, it's a thought. Might be only worth it for sky shots which are pretty bland anyway...



sounds pretty cool but even in really great conditions you would probably have an errormargin that is way bigger than just guessing... smile.gif

another approach would be to use information from the earlier released raw images.

One could probably use the time of day (sun elevation) to estimate the DNs expected for known albedo targets in an image. the dusty sand seems to be pretty much the same color in every picture so far. so you only have to find one patch in shadow and one in direct sun and you would be pretty much golden...

/M

Posted by: Ant103 Oct 4 2007, 09:42 PM

The first pano I've made with the flatfiel I've created. Needs some adjustments during the processing. Frame per frame, different opacity level if it's a L2 picture or a L7. But it seems to work in the final result smile.gif.
Non definitive pic. It miss a lot of data as you seeing it.
I remarked that stitching is harder with this dust deposition sad.gif


 

Posted by: dburt Oct 4 2007, 10:15 PM

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Oct 3 2007, 10:22 PM) *
It's a very cool story. I am no mineralogist. Is there any reason to suspect its crystals would fit into the observed vugs?
As for the "vugs," I'll agree that some of the things we are seeing in the recent MIs resemble vugs we saw back at El Capitan in Eagle Crater and other rocks right up to Endurance. But these seem noticeably smaller and less well defined than http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m028.html.
Another thing I can't help but notice is that I really can't identify any original grain outlines in the new MIs. I understand that we are looking down onto the bedding rather than at a cross section of it, but I can't help but wonder if this rock has been significantly altered. I don't know how much the MIs have been degraded by recent dust accumulations on the lens, so that makes interpreting the raws difficult. I'd like to see some MIs of a vertical cross section next.

Agreed, it's a cool story. However, I'm not sure if it's true. The observed vugs are extremely elongated. Many, many minerals can grow with elongated habits; meridianiite (low temperature hydrated Mg-sulfate) might well be one of them, I don't know. I can, however see a different problem with the elongated vugs representing former Mg-sulfate crystals. The rock matrix, at least where the vugs were first seen, is allegedly rich in Mg-sulfate too (up to 30%). Logically, I can't see why Mg-sulfate crystals would preferentially leach out of a rock that itself is rich in Mg-sulfate - sort of like asking certain calcite crystals to leach preferentially from limestone or marble, or certain salt (halite) crystals to leach from a bed of rock salt. Where you see crystal-shaped cavities (molds), the mineral involved was typically much more soluble than its matrix (e.g., elongated gypsum-shaped molds in sandstone), or chemically unstable with regard to its matrix (e.g., cube-shaped molds in vein quartz that indicate the former presence of the iron sulfite pyrite, since weathered away). While it's possible that there were elongated crystals of meridianiite, the more hydrated form of Mg-sulfate, in a matrix of the less hydrated form, and that they became unstable on heating to just above their breakdown temperature, just above freezing, I don't find this likely over a large area or volume. It further reflects the "vaguely possible if everything went just right, but disturbingly improbable" aspect of many proposals regarding Meridiani and liquid water, IMHO. I find it much easier to hypothesize that the vugs represent a more soluble and easily leachable former chloride mineral (or some other diagenetic phase other than Mg-sulfate). Of course, cold temperatures, ice, and Mg-sulfates all seem to be common on Mars, so meridianiite could likewise be common. I'm just not sure if it explains the crystal molds.

For comparison, the photo below shows elongated vugs presumably representing former crystals of gypsum, a slightly soluble evaporitic sulfate mineral, in a matrix of pure quartz sandstone:



I took this photo in May, 2003 (well before the Mars rover landings) on a Grand Canyon rafting trip (outcrops just above Deer Creek Falls at Mile 136.3). With my boot for scale, it shows rare crystal molds in the Tapeats Sandstone, interpreted as a 540 million year old beach sand deposit. In this case, some seawater presumably became locally isolated and partly evaporated enough to precipitate gypsum or some other salt, then sand was washed or blew in around the crystals, and then the sand deposit was hardened into rock (by carbonate cementation of the sand grains). The salt crystals dissolved in groundwater at some later time, leaving crystal molds in the sandstone. A similar near-shore evaporitic or sabkha environment was initially deduced for the crystal molds at Meridiani, but has since been modified (to wind-blown sulfate "mudball grains" from a dried up and vanished acid playa lake later soaked in rising and falling, evaporating and flowing brine, if I understand the highly complex proposed scenario correctly).

Regarding the much smaller size of the Victoria Crater "turkey tracks" as compared with those molds initially imaged in Eagle Crater, I wouldn't attach too much significance to this observation. It presumably indicates that whatever conditions favored crystal growth didn't last as long (or were otherwise less favorable) at Victoria. Other than size, the crystal molds look pretty similar. Although they also resemble the elongated crystal molds in my Grand Canyon photo above, logically they can't represent former gypsum, because gypsum is much less soluble than the Mg-sulfates found in the Meridianii matrix. I have no comment on the degree of degradation - even the original vugs in Eagle look pretty degraded to me.

-- HDP Don

Posted by: tdemko Oct 5 2007, 12:24 AM

QUOTE (dburt @ Oct 4 2007, 05:15 PM) *
(snip)

For comparison, the photo below shows elongated vugs presumably representing former crystals of gypsum, a slightly soluble evaporitic sulfate mineral, in a matrix of pure quartz sandstone:


A bit off topic (okay, a LOT off topic)...but Don, I think the structures in your picture are the bottoms of the U-shaped burrow Diplocraterion, which are common in both the Tapeats and Bright Angel...

If the structures from Victoria are the the bottoms of U-shaped burrows (and I do NOT think that they are!) then, yowza, we've got a paper to write...
--
Tim Demko

Posted by: fredk Oct 5 2007, 01:51 AM

Thanks for all the pans, guys. There was something about that sol 1294 view that looked oddly familiar, and I think I've got it. Compare http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/1294/1P243064718EFF86JZP2365R1M1.JPG with http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/003/1P128461820EFF0200P2352L7M1.JPG blink.gif

Ah, isn't it wonderful that we can look back with nostalgia at images from a mission that's still going? smile.gif

Posted by: dburt Oct 5 2007, 03:28 AM

QUOTE (tdemko @ Oct 4 2007, 05:24 PM) *
A bit off topic (okay, a LOT off topic)...but Don, I think the structures in your picture are the bottoms of the U-shaped burrow Diplocraterion, which are common in both the Tapeats and Bright Angel...

If the structures from Victoria are the the bottoms of U-shaped burrows (and I do NOT think that they are!) then, yowza, we've got a paper to write...
--
Tim Demko

Hi Tim - Thanks. You might well be right (your specialty, not mine), plus it's been over 4 years since I took the photo, and I've never this particular feature anywhere else in the Canyon. Many exposures of the upper Tapeats, Bright Angel, and Muav are chock full of lovely burrows, I agree, and I've taken hundreds of great photos of typical burrows during several Canyon rafting trips, including during my trip last summer. As I recall, this feature was restricted to a single bedding surface in relatively coarse sandstone, there were no burrows evident elsewhere in the rock (i.e., as seen in section), plus especially some of the elongated cavities appeared to have planar crystal terminations (including one easily seen just above and to the left of my boot-tip in the photo). That, plus the inferred supratidal to subtidal environment, was my basis for inferring that these could represent the exception, traces of inorganic crystals rather than of organic burrows. Still, Mars is far from the only place where digital images can show you just what you're looking for, and if you have a mineral named after you, you're probably looking for crystals. So, probably, guilty as charged, and thanks again.

Occam's Razor would certainly suggest that if you're in a group of rocks that is well known for its burrows, any enigmatic linear cavities that you see just might be related to burrowing, rather than to what you had assumed or hoped they would be (crystal dissolution). By the same token, low pressure, icy Mars is well known to be more than saturated with impact craters, presumably related to the Late Heavy Bombardment, plus numerous later impact events, so might not enigmatic layered, cross-bedded, salty rocks at both rover sites and elsewhere be related to ice and impact cratering rather than to what you had assumed or hoped they would be (warm flowing and standing liquid water, or warm liquid water interacting with hot molten rock)? Well, we've already had that liquid water discussion here, and although Oppy is now in Victoria Crater and Spirit is back on top of Home Plate, little appears to have changed, least of all anyone's opinion. laugh.gif

BTW, I just now looked up Hereford's 1977 article on the Tapeats depositional environment in the Geological Society of America Bulletin (vol. 88, p. 199-211), and he referred to the U-shaped burrows as Corophioides. I presume someone has since changed the name? In any case, Occam's Razor strongly suggests no such burrowers at Meridiani. Too bad. We'll have to write our first joint paper on a less exciting topic. smile.gif

--HDP Don

Posted by: stevesliva Oct 5 2007, 04:25 AM

QUOTE (dburt @ Oct 4 2007, 11:28 PM) *
We'll have to write our first joint paper on a less exciting topic. smile.gif

Cold fusion? wink.gif Sorry, couldn't resist.

Posted by: jvandriel Oct 5 2007, 07:28 PM

Here is the view inside Victoria Crater taken with the

R0 Navcam on Sol 1313.

jvandriel


Posted by: kungpostyle Oct 7 2007, 12:06 AM

Interesting shapes in this one.

Source image: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/pancam/2007-10-06/1P244925933EFF8700P2580R2M1.JPG

 

Posted by: jvandriel Oct 7 2007, 10:04 PM

Here is the complete view inside Victoria Crater.

Taken on Sol 1313 and Sol 1314 with the Ro Navcam.

Dilo,

stitched with Autostitch and as you can see, no problems.

jvandriel


Posted by: CosmicRocker Oct 8 2007, 04:43 AM

This surely has been quite an eclectic trip over the edge, as seen through many eyes. Thanks to all of you who commented and posted interesting images. smile.gif I think I'll toss in some right eye false color images.
I don't think there are a lot of fans of these right pancam IR false color images, but I am always on the alert for new sets of R-all images, and even the occasional R-less-than-all sets. As I mentioned before, they seem to highlight certain mineralogies. Here are the most recent right eye false color images from my point of view. Without a doubt, we are well into the section where hematite spherules have formed.


Posted by: Stu Oct 8 2007, 10:59 AM

... and in real(ish) colour...


Posted by: Ant103 Oct 8 2007, 12:09 PM

Hi,

The two mosaic showing crater interior on Sol 1294



http://astrosurf.com/merimages/Images_opportunity-2007.html#Sol1294

Lenses are so dusty. I become to be so nostalgic about pre-storm pictures sad.gif.

Posted by: Sunspot Oct 8 2007, 12:58 PM

If Opportunity continued to RAT further into the rock, would it find the minerals, still in place that produce these "vugs" ?

Posted by: centsworth_II Oct 8 2007, 03:08 PM

My popular science-level geology take:
The conditions that dissolved the crystals happened long ago
-- before Victoria Crater existed -- and dissolved the crystals
in the entire stratum, not just the current surface.

The "blueberries being formed by current surface conditions"
people may have a different take. laugh.gif

Posted by: dilo Oct 8 2007, 04:26 PM

QUOTE (Ant103 @ Oct 8 2007, 12:09 PM) *
The two mosaic showing crater interior on Sol 1294
...
Lenses are so dusty. I become to be so nostalgic about pre-storm pictures sad.gif.

Ant, you did a great work!
I started from these pictures to further equalize contrast/luminosity disuniformities, adding a sharpening too:

(artificial sky in first picture).

Posted by: nprev Oct 8 2007, 06:49 PM

Man...she is dusty!!! Really struck by the accumulation on just the one side of the omni antenna mast. One result of this might just be the need to drag a grounding strap like many cars in the southwestern deserts of the US do to prevent occupant shocks when debarking, but in this case it would be to make rovers less electrostatically attractive... sad.gif...even though the wheels are metallic, it still seems like adhesion is a major problem after a storm like that.

Might be productive to do a dust deposition survey (insofar as that can be done) on Oppy to look for regions that might have been particularly prone to accumulation for future engineering efforts.

Posted by: dilo Oct 8 2007, 08:25 PM

QUOTE (jvandriel @ Oct 7 2007, 10:04 PM) *
Here is the complete view inside Victoria Crater.
Dilo, stitched with Autostitch and as you can see, no problems.

I see, very nice!
I made a polar and two "vertical" projections from your panorama (top right projection is approxmately aligned with rover vertical, bottom one was rotated in order to have a simulated view of the rover from rear/side):

Posted by: Del Palmer Oct 8 2007, 11:54 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 8 2007, 07:49 PM) *
Man...she is dusty!!! Really struck by the accumulation on just the one side of the omni antenna mast. One result of this might just be the need to drag a grounding strap like many cars in the southwestern deserts of the US do to prevent occupant shocks when debarking, but in this case it would be to make rovers less electrostatically attractive... sad.gif...


Yup, but I think Spirit has it much worse. ohmy.gif. They both already have several ultrathin tungsten needles fitted to bleed-off electric charges into the atmosphere.

Posted by: Astro0 Oct 8 2007, 11:55 PM

Based on jvandriel's stitch, here's an artist's enhanced view of the Sol1313-14 panorama.
Enjoy
Astro0


Posted by: Aussie Oct 9 2007, 07:34 AM

Stu.
Great rathole at post 178. The tiny 'stalked' concretions at the far left really bring home to me what 38% gravity and an atmosphere that is a near vacuum really means.

Posted by: dvandorn Oct 9 2007, 08:19 AM

QUOTE (Ant103 @ Oct 8 2007, 07:09 AM) *
I become to be so nostalgic about pre-storm pictures sad.gif.

Me? I'm just happy that we're gettng post-storm pictures...!

smile.gif

-the other Doug

Posted by: Astro0 Oct 9 2007, 12:55 PM

Inspired by dilo's polar projections, here's a little artwork I'm calling 'The Little Prince'. mars.gif
Enjoy smile.gif
Astro0


Posted by: Stu Oct 9 2007, 01:05 PM

Just a bit of fun...



smile.gif

Posted by: Pando Oct 9 2007, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (Astro0 @ Oct 9 2007, 05:55 AM) *
Inspired by dilo's polar projections, here's a little artwork I'm calling 'The Little Prince'. mars.gif
Enjoy smile.gif
Astro0

Wow Astro0, this image is truly awesome... blink.gif

Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 9 2007, 04:44 PM

QUOTE (Pando @ Oct 9 2007, 05:06 PM) *
Wow Astro0, this image is truly awesome... blink.gif


It certainly is. blink.gif

Better late than never, here are my attempts at the 1294 ingress survey.

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejcanvin/mer/index.html#B1294http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejcanvin/mer/index.html#B1294

James

Posted by: hortonheardawho Oct 9 2007, 07:07 PM

QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Oct 9 2007, 12:44 PM) *
It certainly is. blink.gif

Better late than never, here are my attempts at the 1294 ingress survey...

James


Bravo!

Er, could you share your flat-field dust masks? I have "hit the wall" trying to use the pancam sky-flat images to correct for the dust. I have been using the L1 filter to correct the image after RGB conversion.

Here is my final attempt at the north view:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/1498002618/

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Oct 9 2007, 07:57 PM

QUOTE (Stu @ Oct 9 2007, 05:05 AM) *
Just a bit of fun...

just a bit more fun (with apologies to Stu)

 

Posted by: jvandriel Oct 9 2007, 08:23 PM

Opportunity looking back at the entry point of Victoria Crater.

The complete view taken with the R1 Pancam on Sol 1299.

jvandriel


Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 9 2007, 10:13 PM

QUOTE (hortonheardawho @ Oct 9 2007, 08:07 PM) *
Er, could you share your flat-field dust masks? I have "hit the wall" trying to use the pancam sky-flat images to correct for the dust. I have been using the L1 filter to correct the image after RGB conversion.


I don't know how useful this is as I play a few tricks deep within my processing software, but this is my input flat-field:



I gave up using the sky-flats as well, the stretching does bad things I think. This is made from some fairly featureless ground pointing pancams in L1 from sol 1290 stacked and blurred. Properly used it should account for vignetting as well.

James

Posted by: mhoward Oct 12 2007, 04:51 AM

The MI cought some particles moving in a gust of wind on sol 1320.

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/micro_imager/2007-10-11/

Particularly:

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/micro_imager/2007-10-11/1M245369549EFF8700P2956M2M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/micro_imager/2007-10-11/1M245369590EFF8700P2956M2M1.JPG

(Those two images are about 40 seconds apart)

Posted by: Tesheiner Oct 12 2007, 06:29 AM

Today (sol 1321) the rover is expected to be on the move.
Stay tuned.
wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif

CODE
01321::p1201::07::2::0::0::2::0::4::front_haz_penultimate_1bpp_pri17
01321::p1214::05::2::0::0::2::0::4::front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
01321::p1301::06::2::0::0::2::0::4::rear_haz_penultimate_1bpp_pri17
01321::p1312::07::2::0::0::2::0::4::rear_haz_ultimate_2_bpp_pri15
01321::p1982::06::12::0::0::12::0::24::navcam_6x1_custom_LVLAZ_3bpp

Posted by: MahFL Oct 12 2007, 04:51 PM

Pictures are down of the drive.

Posted by: Tesheiner Oct 12 2007, 08:37 PM

The rover backed away from the previous site. It seems to be somewhere in between that place (since sol 1305) and the one corresponding to sol 1302.
Check my latest update to the route map.

Posted by: mhoward Oct 13 2007, 09:23 AM

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1556494943&size=l

Posted by: Stu Oct 13 2007, 09:53 AM

Beat me to it...!


Posted by: jvandriel Oct 13 2007, 01:39 PM

A mosaic of images made between Sol 1305 and Sol 1319

with the R1 Pancam.

jvandriel


Posted by: jvandriel Oct 13 2007, 02:57 PM

Here is the result of the Ratting on Sol 1316 by Opportunity.

Taken with the Mi Cam.

jvandriel


Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 14 2007, 03:44 PM

Sols 1305 to 1319 - L257 - Looking along the bright band.

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~jcanvin/mer/index.html#B1319

James

Posted by: mhoward Oct 14 2007, 05:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRK7ixyyF3U

Posted by: jvandriel Oct 14 2007, 07:36 PM

Ken,

as you can see in this animation, Opportunitys RAT is still working on Sol 1322.

Taken with the R0 Front Hazcam.

jvandriel


Posted by: mhoward Oct 14 2007, 08:10 PM

Just messing about a bit:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1571162199&size=o

Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 15 2007, 01:59 PM

Work volume after the sol 1321 drive.

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~jcanvin/mer/index.html#B1321

James

Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 15 2007, 05:10 PM

A couple more mosaics.

Sol 1296

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~jcanvin/mer/index.html#B1296

and Sol 1298 drive direction

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~jcanvin/mer/index.html#B1298

James

Posted by: fredk Oct 16 2007, 02:46 AM

We've heard about this already, but http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/20071015a.html The rover's have another extension!

QUOTE
NASA is extending, for a fifth time, the activities of the Mars Exploration Rovers, Spirit and Opportunity. The decision keeps the trailblazing mobile robotic pioneers active on opposite sides of Mars, possibly through 2009.
2009 - I like the sound of that! smile.gif

Posted by: Shaka Oct 16 2007, 06:51 AM

smile.gif Let's hope Steve has an offspring in training to take over the reins!
wheel.gif

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 17 2007, 12:46 AM

I just noticed it is now just over 1000 sols since Opportunity drove OUT of Endurance crater. That really puts the length of the mission into perspective - back then, it seemed like the mission had already accomplished so much...

Phil

Posted by: Tesheiner Oct 17 2007, 08:24 AM

I just checked the imaging plan for tosol and noticed that the last sequences are from two sols ago. There was nothing planned after sol 1324.
Opportunity has obviously downlinked (old) data during these last two sols so it might be just a "data backlog" issue, like Spirit.

... or it might be something else. huh.gif

Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 17 2007, 09:15 AM

I think the tracking database needs a kick, even with light activity we would still expect to see a few sequences (like Tau) and lots of data is coming down so there doesn't appear to be any problems with Oppy herself.

Posted by: Stu Oct 17 2007, 09:45 AM

QUOTE (fredk @ Oct 16 2007, 03:46 AM) *
The rover's have another extension! 2009 - I like the sound of that! smile.gif


Me too!! smile.gif


Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 17 2007, 12:11 PM

Sol 1299 'Ingress Survey Right' - Looking back up to the entry point. smile.gif

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~jcanvin/mer/index.html#B1299R

James

Posted by: sattrackpro Oct 18 2007, 12:17 AM

James, your great picture got me thinking again about the power needed to climb back out...

I'm absolutely confident that is not a problem, but I've been wondering about how much more power is needed to drive the rovers uphill versus that needed to go downhill.

Do you, or others, know if this has been covered elsewhere here?

Now... I've got to again express my Thanks to you, and so many others here, for all your efforts that provide so many great color renditions from the data coming back from the rovers. You all make this window into that other world the rovers explore a daily fascination not to be missed!

Posted by: Tesheiner Oct 18 2007, 07:54 AM

QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Oct 17 2007, 11:15 AM) *
I think the tracking database needs a kick, even with light activity we would still expect to see a few sequences (like Tau) and lots of data is coming down so there doesn't appear to be any problems with Oppy herself.

Well, there is actually a gap on the sequencing, nothing on sols 1325 and 1326:

CODE
(...)
01324::p1585::00::4::0::4::0::0::8::navcam_cloud_4x1_dwnsmp_RVRAz_calstart
01324::p2601::02::4::2::0::0::2::8::pancam_tau_L78R48
01324::p2631::01::11::0::0::0::2::13::pancam_sky_spot_L234567R34567
01327::p1151::04::2::0::0::2::0::4::front_hazcam_idd_unstow_doc
(...)


I would say that's nothing of real concern but only of curiosity; let's see what the next status report tells us.

BTW, the plan for 1327 is of a driving sol and includes also color imaging of Cape Verde and two features named after "Smith" and "Hall". The geologists might tell us who are/were them.

Posted by: SteveM Oct 19 2007, 12:54 AM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Oct 18 2007, 03:54 AM) *
BTW, the plan for 1327 is of a driving sol and includes also color imaging of Cape Verde and two features named after "Smith" and "Hall". The geologists might tell us who are/were them.

Could they be Asaph Hall, the discoverer of Deimos and Phobos and Jonathan Smith, who, if I recall correctly, speculated that Mars would have two satellites?

Steve M

Obviously, I didn't recall correctly, it's Swift, not Smith.

Steve M

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 19 2007, 12:57 AM

That was Jonathan Swift. There are a lot of Smiths but one was William Smith, author of the first real geological map.

Phil

Posted by: n1ckdrake Oct 20 2007, 07:59 AM

Sol 1327



Posted by: Tesheiner Oct 20 2007, 10:30 AM

Here is my attempt with the 360º navcam panorama (left eye) taken after drive on sol 1327.



BTW, sol 1329 (today) we might be seeing another move.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Oct 21 2007, 03:05 AM

On sol 1320 Opportunity http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m1320.html identically positioned MIs of a recently RATed rock face. Except for the first time interval of 54 seconds, the remaining images in the sequence were captured every 41-42 seconds. Here is an animation of the 10 images, so we can watch bits of dusty RAT cuttings blow about in the local Martian wind. I couldn't create an animation of the full-sized MIs small enough to post here. Since most of the dust mote movement takes place in the unbrushed, inner circle, I cropped the the images to minimize file size.

This set of 10 images was captured over a period of roughly six and a half minutes. The video will replay the observed changes more than 100 times faster than they were actually observed. Apparently it is still windy in Meridiani. smile.gif
 1M1320dust_anim_sm2.avi ( 676K ) : 546
676 KB

Posted by: Reckless Oct 21 2007, 10:36 AM

Hi CS

This is a very good animation it seems show some particals moving one way and then the other and at least one "white" partical appearing out of nowhere. This shows how the higher rate of frames per second in movies would really be useful.
Roy F

Posted by: Tesheiner Oct 21 2007, 02:26 PM

Sol 1329: Opportunity moved almost to the lowest part of the "white band" and is now in front of the feature named "Smith".
Is just me or do somebody else see the contact with a deeper layer in this http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/navcam/2007-10-20/1N246174202EFF8788P0175L0M1.JPG?

Posted by: glennwsmith Oct 21 2007, 05:25 PM

Yes, Tesheiner, there would seem to be contact with a different layer -- one a little more resistant to weathering, or which weathers in a not-so-uniform way. But -- and this brings up a broader topic -- you don't have to look very hard to see that both are relentlessly layered, almost like the pages of a book, in the typical Meridiani fashion. Pardon my ignorance, but has an explanation been given for the omnipresence and consistency of this layering?

Posted by: climber Oct 21 2007, 08:07 PM

QUOTE (n1ckdrake @ Oct 20 2007, 09:59 AM) *
Sol 1327



I didn't realize before seen this picture that the capes at the far side are lower than the horizon.

Posted by: Tesheiner Oct 22 2007, 08:24 AM

Opportunity shot this panorama on sol 1329. cool.gif


Posted by: n1ckdrake Oct 22 2007, 09:33 AM

Here is a view of 'Cape Verde' from Sol 1329.


Posted by: alan Oct 22 2007, 11:57 AM

The layers above this line appear roughly parallel to the layers below it. Could it be a fault?


Posted by: ngunn Oct 22 2007, 12:22 PM

[quote name='alan' post='102552' date='Oct 22 2007, 12:57 PM']The layers above this line appear roughly parallel to the layers below it. Could it be a fault?

We saw an oblique feature at Cape Desire that seemed to have the layering pass continuously through it. Some post-depositional processes were discussed, including concretions formed along cracks. On the other hand Cape Verde does look superficially as if it has undergone some slumping relative to nearby capes. It will be fascinating to see if close-up observations here can make a definite distinction between altered cracks and genuine faulting involving post-depositional relative motion.

Posted by: Stu Oct 22 2007, 12:23 PM

Still one of my favourite views from the whole MER mission...


Posted by: djellison Oct 22 2007, 01:32 PM

Looks like one of those face-in-profile-in-a-cliff type things smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 22 2007, 04:42 PM

For some unknown reason my dust flatfield doesn't seem to work on the right-most image so this isn't very good, but anyway...

Cape Verde - Sol 1329.

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~jcanvin/mer/index.html#B1329

James

Posted by: jvandriel Oct 22 2007, 08:48 PM

Here is my view of the Sol 1327 panorama.

Taken with the R0 Navcam.

jvandriel


Posted by: Shaka Oct 23 2007, 06:03 AM

Ahem. So I guess we have now begun our first official transect down the Duck Bay exposure, and ought to begin the 'geologizing' from the top down:


From what we've seen so far, I'd hazard to propose that we have crossed at least two distinct 'units' (A&B), and have close proximity to two more (C&D)
A constitutes the 'ejecta', a layer of jumbled blocks implaced ballistically by the VC impact, a breccia with more-or-less randomly oriented 'clasts'.
There may be some substructure in Unit A, but we are apparently deferring that study for later.

Unit B appears to be the first in situ component of the pre-impact strata. Fractured, as might be expected, but far from random in the orientation of the Meridiani laminations. There does not seem to be a pristine, flat original surface upon which the ejecta is piled, nor would I have expected one. This close to the center of impact, the energy of the fireball should have stripped off much of the original surface and dispersed it well away from the crater.
This may explain the absence of a distinct "concretion-free" upper layer, as can be found farther away from the crater. The sites in B that we have observed closely with the IDD (#8700 and 8736) show a range of small-scale 'berries' and vugs in the rock such as we have seen on the drive south to VC.

Unit C is distinct from B in its appearance, having much more smoothly-eroded, coplanar blocks that give it the "bright ring" albedo, in contrast to B and D. Whether its microstructure and composition are similarly distinct awaits the result of IDD analyses. Does the smoothness of its appearance imply a softer rock, more prone to erosion than the units above and below?

Anyway, true or otherwise, this prelude sets the ball rolling, and I would hope that the rockhounds in our membership leap to the fore with corrections and additions as we continue Paolo's Plunge. wheel.gif

Posted by: Stu Oct 23 2007, 10:24 PM

Fascinating detail visible in the "band" now...


Posted by: dburt Oct 24 2007, 01:37 AM

QUOTE (glennwsmith @ Oct 21 2007, 10:25 AM) *
...this brings up a broader topic -- you don't have to look very hard to see that both are relentlessly layered, almost like the pages of a book, in the typical Meridiani fashion. Pardon my ignorance, but has an explanation been given for the omnipresence and consistency of this layering?

Several explanations, among them 1) an exceedingly complex interplay among acid brine evaporation, wind erosion and deposition, varying groundwater tables, surficial flowing water, and concretion secretion (official team explanation, applied only to Meridiani), 2) volcanic surge with subsequent fumarolic activity (McCollom and Hynek's explanation for Meridiani, later adapted as the official team explanation for the Home Plate area in Gusev - but not Meridiani), and 3) impact surge owing to planetwide intense cratering of the Late Heavy Bombardment (Knauth et al.'s explanation for both Meridiani and, when it was discovered, Home Plate; could account for similar layered rocks anywhere else on Mars). The detailed consistency of the layers in the Meridiani region probably has not yet been adequately tested. It's general aspect, including the dominance of shallow cross-beds, presence of tiny spherules, and saltiness, seems fairly consistent, as far as can be told from observations to date. I was second author of the Knauth et al. paper, as most here know.

-- HDP Don

Posted by: glennwsmith Oct 24 2007, 03:34 AM

Thanks, dburt. I will have to study the Knauth paper. In the interim, I would note that such consistent layers on earth are often associated with annual processes, for example, tree ring layering. (Just an impression from looking at the Meridiani layering . . .)

Posted by: Tesheiner Oct 24 2007, 08:52 AM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Oct 22 2007, 10:24 AM) *
Opportunity shot this panorama on sol 1329.

Here is a polar projection of that same shot. North is up.

Posted by: dburt Oct 24 2007, 07:07 PM

QUOTE (glennwsmith @ Oct 23 2007, 08:34 PM) *
..I would note that such consistent layers on earth are often associated with annual processes, for example, tree ring layering. (Just an impression from looking at the Meridiani layering . . .)

An impression many others here, including me, have shared. A subtle but important distinction is that tree ring-type sedimentary layers, or "varves" to the sedimentologist (annual layers in a periglacial lake that was frozen over every winter and thawed every summer) are not cross-bedded. That is, they were not being eroded (scoured) at the same time they were being deposited. This is impossible in the standing water of a lake, and suggests a more dynamic environment of deposition.

-- HDP Don

Posted by: Aussie Oct 25 2007, 01:24 AM

Dburt,

One of the arguments against the JPL model with cyclical deposition of sediment by surface water flow is that the warmer, wetter period required would have had to occur when solar output was less than the present levels. Under that scenario, even with a thicker atmosphere Mars would be frozen and surface water would be transient, formed as a result of volcanic or impact energy. But your reference to the late heavy bombardment has raised a hypothetical in my mind.

If Robin Canup’s model of the creation of the moon as the result of a Mars sized body impacting the Earth is correct, (and I am not saying that this is proven), then Earth was extremely fortunate. The creation of the Earth/ Moon duality provided a stability in Earth’s obliquity to orbit providing a reasonably benign environment for the development of complex organisms. But what if Mars was less fortunate and experienced a near miss with a similar sized object where the geometry of the encounter resulted in Mars gaining angular momentum at the expense of the body. (A reverse slingshot effect if you would). Following such an encounter Mars would have migrated outward towards the edge of the goldilocks zone and the late heavy bombardment would have been the coup de grace.

I only mention this hypothetical (or perhaps fantasy is a more appropriate descrription unsure.gif ) to make the point that we need to keep an open mind on the early surface conditions of Mars. Impact events certainly had a huge influence on Martian geological development and would have contributed to both Gusev and Meridiani. But cyclical aeolian or water driven events appear to be a key influence at Meridiani while aeolian and hydrothermal influences seem to have been major contributors to the home plate area.

Posted by: dburt Oct 25 2007, 04:26 AM

QUOTE (Aussie @ Oct 24 2007, 06:24 PM) *
...we need to keep an open mind on the early surface conditions of Mars. Impact events certainly had a huge influence on Martian geological development and would have contributed to both Gusev and Meridiani. But cyclical aeolian or water driven events appear to be a key influence at Meridiani while aeolian and hydrothermal influences seem to have been major contributors to the home plate area.

Aussie - Not impossible, but as stated in previous posts, I have problems with both scenarios, the most obvious one of which ("the elephant in the living room") is that the two sets of rocks appear so very similiar - ferric acid sulfates, spherules, and especially bedding features. It just doesn't seem logical to ascribe them to completely different causes. Granted that the rocks differ in minor details, and that the wind moves particles around on modern Mars, but it's unclear to me what process can then cement these particles uniformly into a rock (given that significant burial is unlikely). Impact cratering is a process that likewise continues to be active on modern Mars, and uniform cementation is not a problem for steamy surge cloud condensation (cf. the famous young rampart craters of Mars). Furthermore, the surge clouds probably contain a large component of sand and dust particles scoured from the substrate (scouring is also indicated by the low angle crossbeds). A feature suggestive of surge cloud condensation is deposition of beds with original dip, and such steeply inclined beds seem common in and around Home Plate. Evidence of hydrothermal activity around Home Plate is equivocal at best - so far no veining, no hydrous clay minerals that might be expected from basalt alteration, no alteration mounds or haloes of any kind. Evidence of water immersion or water flow at Meridiani is likewise equivocal at best, as discussed in many previous posts. Meridiani bedded rocks have clearly been reworked many times by impacts, as seen at Victoria Crater itself. Future rover observations at both landing sites are eagerly awaited.

-- HDP Don

Posted by: Aussie Oct 25 2007, 05:51 AM

I'm not sure if attention was drawn to your abstract for the 10th mars Crater Consortium meeting, and its kind acknowlegement of UMSF discussions.
http://www.marscraterconsortium.nau.edu/BurtMCC10.pdf

Posted by: dburt Oct 25 2007, 06:47 PM

QUOTE (Aussie @ Oct 24 2007, 10:51 PM) *
I'm not sure if attention was drawn to your abstract for the 10th mars Crater Consortium meeting, and its kind acknowlegement of UMSF discussions.
http://www.marscraterconsortium.nau.edu/BurtMCC10.pdf

Aussie - Thanks for posting the link. In that abstract I tried to summarize discussions I had here, so I thought the UMSF acknowledgement was appropriate.

Although my talk on impact surge deposition seemed to go over well (perhaps not surprising, given the interests of the audience), more than one participant cautioned me afterwards to be careful about generalizing from layered rocks at the two rover landing sites to those on the rest of Mars. That caution was also appropriate.

-- HDP Don

Posted by: PaulM Oct 25 2007, 07:49 PM

I read the abstract and found it interesting. However, it prompted a question which is "How large an area could a single surge deposit be expected to cover?".

My reason for asking the question is that I have previously read that 3 distinct units are present in the wall of Endurance crater: cross bedded deposits, flat bedded deposits and deposits containing distinct structures which may be festoons.

These same three units seem also to be present in the wall of Victoria crater which is 10 km from Endurance crater. Is it reasonable that if the origin of any of these distinct units is a single impact surge deposit covering an area several km in diameter?

Posted by: CosmicRocker Oct 26 2007, 01:58 AM

New Opportunity images from sols 1329-1334 became available at the Exploratorium a little over an hour ago. smile.gif smile.gif

Posted by: Aussie Oct 26 2007, 02:59 AM

Paul.
It is not the area but rather the depth that makes me query surge deposition. Extrapolating from Endurance we can assume that the apparent sandstone layers at Victoria, which I believe evidence some steep cross bedding, will have 'berries' throughout. Repeated impact events all producing hematite spherules through mechanical accretion in high temperature surge clouds does not sit comfortably - particularly with Tim Glotch's take on the spheres: My view on the hematite formation at Meridiani can be summed up thusly: thermal IR data from TES and Mini-TES rule out a high-temperature formation mechanism Post 49 of Mars/Surficial berries thread. http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=4391&st=45

HP Don makes some strong points and I have no doubt that some layers will indeed be surge deposits. Hopefully Oppy will delve deeper below the band and perhaps finally set some questions to rest. It would be a pity if Paolo's Plunge became a toe dip.

Posted by: dburt Oct 26 2007, 11:07 PM

QUOTE (Aussie @ Oct 25 2007, 07:59 PM) *
It is not the area but rather the depth that makes me query surge deposition. Extrapolating from Endurance we can assume that the apparent sandstone layers at Victoria, which I believe evidence some steep cross bedding, will have 'berries' throughout. Repeated impact events all producing hematite spherules through mechanical accretion in high temperature surge clouds does not sit comfortably - particularly with Tim Glotch's take on the spheres: My view on the hematite formation at Meridiani can be summed up thusly: thermal IR data from TES and Mini-TES rule out a high-temperature formation mechanism Post 49 of Mars/Surficial berries thread. http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=4391&st=45

Aussie - In response to PaulM's original question, the area covered by an impact surge would depend on the mass and competence of the impactor, its incoming velocity, and the competence and volatile content of the target (in addition to the density of the atmosphere, etc.). For a large enough crater, it could span many hundreds or even thousands of kilometers (especially if surges caused by secondary impacts are considered). Individual surge deposits may indeed be relatively thin, except near the source, but collectively (e.g., if formed during the Late Heavy Bombardment) they could span many hundreds of meters in thickness in any given area. Although energetic surges can easily override topographic obstacles, the deposits tend to be thicker and somewhat coarser in original topographic lows (such as inside a preexisting crater).

Steep cross-bedding (including dune forms), shallow cross-bedding, flat bedding, and apparently even "festoons" can characterize different depositional regimes (including "wet" vs. "dry") in surge deposits (see many earlier discussions), although shallow cross-bedding is most typical. Thus these heterogeneous particulate flows can mimic many bedforms produced by wind or water deposition.

As discussed in earlier posts, you need only to produce the hematitic berries once during a single unusual impact event - they appear to be competent enough to withstand reworking and redistribution by later impacts (which could easily have spread them out over a wider area). This is clearly seen by the distribution of impact-excavated berries around Victoria Crater. The thread you cite mainly concerns whether or not Mars hematite formed by oxidation of magnetite, and on the nature of hematite at Gusev. When Tim Glotch says, in the post you cite, "This implies that the hematite there is not coarsely crystalline like it is at Meridiani" he is apparently acknowledging that the blue-gray Meridiani hematite is coarse-grained (specularite) that normally is only produced by high temperature hydrothermal (or fumarolic) processes - such as those that might be expected in a surge cloud. (Pre-landing ideas had the specular hematite produced in a giant hot spring or via metamorphism of an iron formation.) His high temperature experiments, as I recall, dealt with simple dry roasting - irrelevant in this case, where we are talking about steamy or hydrothermal conditions. Sometimes it pays to refer back to the original papers. smile.gif Anyone who seriously believes that typical hematitic sedimentary concretions consist of blue-gray specular hematite (and that they are strictly spherical, strictly size-limited, uniformly distributed in their parent rock, and never clumped together into large masses) perhaps needs to do more geological field work. cool.gif

Not wishing to repeat myself any more, I somewhat hesitantly refer you back to this extremely lengthy earlier thread (and the links and references therein):
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=4308

--HDP Don

Posted by: PhilCo126 Oct 27 2007, 12:14 PM

Any ideas how many meters Oppy has driven into the crater so far?
I know the science target bright band of rocks is about 12 meters (about 40 feet) from the rim...
wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Oct 27 2007, 04:46 PM

Everything that can be said about impact surges is http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=4308&hl=Brine+splat.

This discussion is about Paolo's plunge. Now back to our regularly scheduled postings.

Posted by: climber Oct 27 2007, 05:12 PM

QUOTE (PhilCo126 @ Oct 27 2007, 02:14 PM) *
Any ideas how many meters Oppy has driven into the crater so far?
I know the science target bright band of rocks is about 12 meters (about 40 feet) from the rim...
wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif

I told you they don't do regular updates anymore and your answer was : look at Tesheiner's route map.
So, you know where's the answer (ah ah ah) tongue.gif wink.gif

Posted by: PhilCo126 Oct 27 2007, 05:34 PM

Yeah but between the lines one could see it's an estimation request. I would say we're 8 - 10 meters in... tongue.gif

Posted by: climber Oct 27 2007, 06:51 PM

QUOTE (PhilCo126 @ Oct 27 2007, 07:34 PM) *
Yeah but between the lines one could see it's an estimation request. I would say we're 8 meters in... tongue.gif

Got you now! You want estimation and Tesheiner's map is too much precise biggrin.gif tongue.gif smile.gif
Sorry, I could not resist smile.gif

Posted by: Bill Harris Oct 28 2007, 12:16 PM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Oct 27 2007, 11:46 AM) *
Everything that can be said about impact surges is http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=4308&hl=Brine+splat.

This discussion is about Paolo's plunge. Now back to our regularly scheduled postings.

Bravo, EGD.

Enough of the X-Files. We now return to your regularly-scheduled rational discussion.

 

Posted by: kenny Oct 28 2007, 09:03 PM

You've been away for a while....

Posted by: climber Oct 28 2007, 09:46 PM

As I said to Philip on a personal message, I was about to ask if somebody has got a anaglyph map of Victoria (I can't actualy remember)
the same type Cosmicrocker posted for Spirit at Home Plate. Using this + Fredk's angles measurements, I thing we'll have a prety good estimation of how deep and how far Oppy has travelled since the ridge.
Does it make sense ?

Posted by: CosmicRocker Oct 29 2007, 03:05 AM

Climber: I'm not sure how it will help, but I am happy to make a HiRise anaglyph of Duck's Bay for you, and overlay Eduardo's route. The Victoria contour map that was used for a short time as the JPL-posted route map might be more helpful. It shows that Opportunity is approximately 4 vertical meters below the rim.


Posted by: Tesheiner Oct 29 2007, 11:56 AM

QUOTE (PhilCo126 @ Oct 27 2007, 01:14 PM) *
Any ideas how many meters Oppy has driven into the crater so far?
I know the science target bright band of rocks is about 12 meters (about 40 feet) from the rim...
wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif


Here you have a table with rover coordinates (in meters) for each driving sol since 1291. You can use the (x, y)s to calculate the net driving distance into the crater and the (z) to estimate how deep the rover is in relation to the rim.
Two comments, part of the business of handling the rover's mobility data:
- The coordinates on the table are actually (y), (x), and (-z), but if you want to calculate distances it doesn't matter.
- The "reset to zero" on sol 1305 is something that happens when a "new site" is declared. No real move, actually.

1291 -28.0212::-6.51046::0.507077
1293 -25.24::-1.34209::2.05349
1298 -23.2091::2.2861::3.08661
1302 -24.4837::2.98882::3.35583
1305 -26.5627::3.65416::3.54373
1305 0::0::0
1321 0.980456::-0.563328::-0.181285
1327 2.54863::-1.26523::-0.429307
1329 0.740809::1.42287::0.484411

Posted by: climber Oct 29 2007, 09:50 PM

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Oct 29 2007, 04:05 AM) *
Climber: I'm not sure how it will help, but I am happy to make a HiRise anaglyph of Duck's Bay for you, and overlay Eduardo's route. The Victoria contour map that

Thanks Tom,
I'm not sure I'm the only one to appreciate the anaglyph.

Posted by: Astro0 Oct 29 2007, 11:15 PM

Nice! smile.gif
Enjoy
Astro0


Posted by: jmjawors Oct 30 2007, 12:05 AM

What is that?!? blink.gif

Oh my gosh!

Sorry... taken aback by that image. Just my first reaction...

Posted by: djellison Oct 30 2007, 06:38 AM

Sun setting/rising over the rim of Victoria crater.

Doug

Posted by: Tesheiner Oct 30 2007, 11:51 AM

It looks like Opportunity is finishing up this big "Lyell mosaic"; I've counted 61 pointings in L257R1 filters since sol 1333.
James, Alan, Jvandriel, others? Are you planning to stitch it?

CODE
01332::p2380::12::24::0::0::24::7::55::pancam_lyell_left_L257R1
01333::p2381::12::24::0::0::24::7::55::pancam_lyell_center_L257R1
01335::p2382::12::24::0::0::24::7::55::pancam_lyell_north_L257R1
01335::p2383::12::24::0::0::24::7::55::pancam_lyell_south_L257R1
01335::p2384::12::20::20::0::0::2::42::pancam_lyell_top_part1_L257R1
01335::p2385::12::20::0::0::20::6::46::pancam_lyell_top_part2_L257R1
01336::p2386::12::12::0::0::12::2::26::pancam_lyell_topleft_3x1_L257R1
01337::p2387::12::28::0::0::28::2::58::pancam_lyell_bottom_7x1_L257R1
01338::p2389::12::8::0::0::8::2::18::pancam_lyell_north_part2_1x2_L257R1
01338::p2390::12::24::0::0::24::2::50::pancam_lyell_left_part2_3x2_L257R1
01338::p2391::12::8::0::0::8::2::18::pancam_lyell_south_part2_2x1_L257R1
01338::p2592::19::4::4::0::0::2::10::pancam_lyell_top_right_L257R1
01339::p2392::12::12::0::0::12::2::26::pancam_Lyell_add_1_L257R1
01339::p2393::12::12::0::0::12::2::26::pancam_Lyell_add_2_L257R1

Posted by: jamescanvin Oct 30 2007, 11:56 AM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Oct 30 2007, 11:51 AM) *
James, Alan, Jvandriel, others? Are you planning to stitch it?


As soon as it's down and I have the time I expect I will, should be spectacular. smile.gif

Aaagh! too much to do

J

Posted by: jmjawors Oct 30 2007, 02:35 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Oct 30 2007, 01:38 AM) *
Sun setting/rising over the rim of Victoria crater.

Doug


I know. I was just expressing my awe. Doesn't translate well into text, I guess. smile.gif

Posted by: alan Oct 31 2007, 11:36 AM

Oppy has now been on Mars for 2 Martian years! mars.gif mars.gif

Posted by: ilbasso Oct 31 2007, 08:16 PM

And I realize it's the wrong unit of measure, but Opportunity has been at Victoria Crater for more than one Earth year!

Remember when it seemed like the drive south from Endurance would take forever, that we would never get to Victoria? And now we have been here for nearly 1/3 of Opportunity's time on Mars.

Posted by: ustrax Oct 31 2007, 08:58 PM

QUOTE (ilbasso @ Oct 31 2007, 08:16 PM) *
Remember when it seemed like the drive south from Endurance would take forever, that we would never get to Victoria? And now we have been here for nearly 1/3 of Opportunity's time on Mars.

That gives some elbow room to http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=3215&hl=ithaca... smile.gif

Posted by: alan Oct 31 2007, 10:47 PM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Oct 30 2007, 06:51 AM) *
It looks like Opportunity is finishing up this big "Lyell mosaic"; I've counted 61 pointings in L257R1 filters since sol 1333.
James, Alan, Jvandriel, others? Are you planning to stitch it?

This it what autostitch produced from what is down so far

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Nov 1 2007, 01:02 AM

QUOTE (alan @ Oct 31 2007, 02:47 PM) *
This it what autostitch produced from what is down so far

Looks like Otto Stitch spent too much time at Oktoberfest. rolleyes.gif

I wonder if future cleaning events will ever restore the Pancam lenses to their original clarity.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Nov 5 2007, 05:10 AM

We can only hope so, EGD. pancam.gif

There have been several interesting investigations going on recently. Did you notice multiple images of the same parts of the outcrop under varying lighting angles? More recently, multiple L6 subframes of Cape Verde have been appearing. I guess they are doing a super-res panorama in subframes to avoid using some of the dustier parts of the lenses.

Be kind to me, because I'm treading new ground here. After devoting yesterday evening to capturing several dozen digital images of comet Holmes/17P, and much of today trying to stack those images into something worthy of posting in the "comet outburst" thread, it was a dismal failure. I blame it on the camera. ph34r.gif At least I learned a few things about using Registax.

The dozens of pancam subframes of Cape Verde encouraged me to abandon the faint comet images and play with the Cape Verde images. I'm sure a better superres panorama could be assembled, but here is my first attempt. unsure.gif


Posted by: antoniseb Nov 5 2007, 06:37 PM

Thanks for the image. It is strange how the lower grooves are placed. It almost looks like the represent wind erosion lines more than layers.

Posted by: CryptoEngineer Nov 5 2007, 07:26 PM

QUOTE (antoniseb @ Nov 5 2007, 01:37 PM) *
Thanks for the image. It is strange how the lower grooves are placed. It almost looks like the represent wind erosion lines more than layers.


I thought so too, but if you look at that jumbled ejecta layer overlaying the grooved rock, you'll see several fragments with striations at a variety of angles. This suggests to me that the direction of the grooves is not determined by the wind, though wind erosion may have made them visible.

CE

Posted by: dburt Nov 5 2007, 08:58 PM

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Nov 4 2007, 10:10 PM) *
...I'm sure a better superres panorama could be assembled, but here is my first attempt...

CosmicRocker - That may not quite be of publication quality, but it certainly shows the bedding features well - better than any Cape Verde image I've seen to date. Congratulations. To me, all of those beautiful low angle cross-beds look infinitely more like "whoosh!" (surge beds deposited in a great hurry, in other words) than they do like anything deposited in a more leisurely (and planar) fashion by wind (planar cross-bedding in dunes) or water, but some here have accused me of having my own strange ideas about the relative importance of impact cratering on Mars. smile.gif

As for the mysterious "grooves" that cut across bedding and rise towards the upper right, I have no ready geological explanation. The fact that they clearly cut across bedding tells you that they are a younger feature, superimposed on the original rock. They might thus represent aqueous alteration along a near-horizontal fracture, later emphasized by the wind because they made the local rock slightly more resistant to erosion on either side, but in principle you should then see the fracture. Alternatively, they might represent some short of planar shock feature caused by the impact that created Victoria, one that likewise made the rock locally more resistant to erosion - but I know of no terrestrial analogs. Indeed, they might represent something else altogether.

-- HDP Don

Posted by: Nirgal Nov 6 2007, 10:53 PM

Hi all !

long time no see ... I havn't had much time in the last months for following the forum very closely.
It's great to see so many of you still continue the contributions of imaging works ... smile.gif

From time to time I'm stopping by to take a quick look at new raw images.
One of the latest Navcam images of inside Victoria caught my attention, so I tried a colorization
(together with a little geometric distortion) to continue the "Alien Landscapes" series

http://www.thethirdplanet.de/oppy_n1329_col_a.jpg

and, as a flashback to Sol 408, another sequel to the "Roving Mars" color hazcam series:

http://www.thethirdplanet.de/oppy_r408_col_a.jpg

Of course the usual color disclaimer applies (artificial colorization as "artist's impression", not intended to represent "true colors"
as might be seen in reality wink.gif

Nirgal

Posted by: Shaka Nov 6 2007, 11:08 PM

QUOTE (Nirgal @ Nov 6 2007, 12:53 PM) *
Hi all !
"Alien Landscapes"
Nirgal

This is exquisite. You really should enter it in a landscape photography competition.
unsure.gif But maybe that's illegal because you weren't holding the camera?
Send it to Aviation Week and Space Technology for their annual photography issue!

Welcome back.

Posted by: climber Nov 6 2007, 11:10 PM

QUOTE (Nirgal @ Nov 6 2007, 11:53 PM) *
Of course the usual color disclaimer applies (artificial colorization as "artist's impression", not intended to represent "true colors"
as might be seen in reality wink.gif
Nirgal

Nirgal,
Your two pictures give me a kind of "relaxing" feeling; a little bit as when I watch the stars on a very pure nigth.
Pure art beauty.
Can't stop looking.
Thanks

Posted by: ugordan Nov 6 2007, 11:13 PM

Nirgal, that Victoria image is just... WOW! ohmy.gif

Posted by: CosmicRocker Nov 7 2007, 05:23 AM

Nirgal: Allow me to get in line with the rest of your fan club to say that we have missed your beautiful images. It is nice to see your latest. Is there a web site where we might find a gallery of your past work?

Dr. Burt: Thanks for your kind comments. I've never done one of those stacked images before, so I am sure it can be improved upon. That diagonal groove is certainly curious. I hope they can manage to get closer to it for some better images, but it does look secondary to me.

I can see a "whoosh" in the visible sedimentary structures here, but I can also see the migration of standard, run-of-the-mill, aeolian bedforms. It is not obvious to me that the two processes would create recognizably different structures on the scales we see in a typical MER panorama. One probably will need to map the lateral changes across multiple capes and bays to build a good story. It certainly has been nice to drive into this crater's layers for a closer look. smile.gif

Posted by: Nirgal Nov 7 2007, 09:59 PM

Thank you all very much for the nice words about the images ... glad you like it smile.gif

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Nov 7 2007, 06:23 AM) *
latest. Is there a web site where we might find a gallery of your past work?


Unfortunately, I still havn't found the time to set up a "real" web page yet (spent all my spare time working on the
images and software themselves, so there is not much time left for the presentation part wink.gif
Also I had to remove many of the older images
that could be found on the forum because of space limitations of my web povider.
... But the long term goal of a dedicated web gallery or maybe even publishing in form of a book still remains smile.gif

Nirgal

P.S.: here are some links to other recent images posted previously on the Orbiters board:

http://www.thethirdplanet.de/tribute_MGS/

http://www.thethirdplanet.de/PSP_001376_1675_col.jpg

http://www.thethirdplanet.de/juventae_chasma_12m_col_a.jpg

(Full resolution image: 3 Megabytes)

Posted by: Shaka Nov 7 2007, 11:22 PM

Dam'! If I only had the money, I'd retire there. biggrin.gif

Posted by: hortonheardawho Nov 8 2007, 09:52 PM

sol 1342 L26:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/1843251339/

Thought some might be interested in a color version of the superres pan.


And here is a "work in progress" sol 1337 L257 pan looking down at "Smith" ( I think):


http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/1907708284/

I have just about given up on Oppy panoramas. Does anyone know what happened to the "plan" to release the "RAW" JPGs with a dust correction?

Posted by: djellison Nov 8 2007, 10:19 PM

Given that we know how hard the Oppy stuff is to work with - stunning work on that pan Hort!!

I'm not sure if/when they'll get the resources in place to better flat-field the images, it's really hard to do.

Images here
http://pancam.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/true_color.html

and here
http://pancam.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/false_color.html

may fare slightly better than the default JPG's from JPL/Exp.

Doug

Posted by: fredk Nov 8 2007, 11:22 PM

The pancam images of Verde from sols 1329 (before drive) and 1342 form a long baseline pair. Here's an anaglyph from the R1's. As usual, differences in lighting make it a bit hard to view. Still, those interested in the diagonal slash might like to get the 3D view:


Posted by: hortonheardawho Nov 9 2007, 03:49 AM

super 3D panorama L257 1x4 (sol 1329) - L26 1x4 ( 1342) of Cabo Verde:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/1927618304/

Posted by: fredk Nov 9 2007, 05:26 AM

Spectacular, Horton!

Posted by: Astro0 Nov 9 2007, 06:00 AM

The RAT's still working wink.gif


I love showing these gifs when talking with kids. They're a nice compliment to the Dan Maas MER/IDD animation.
Astro0

Posted by: dvandorn Nov 9 2007, 06:06 AM

There is no way on God's Red Mars that I could resist driving Oppy over to Cabo Verde and have her spend a few months working over that rock face.

It looks like there is sun for much of the day along this side of the promontory, and that there are approaches where Oppy would only be riding along at a 20 degree slope or so. I'd bet Oppy could safely work the rock face.

Anyone wanna speculate?

rolleyes.gif

-the other Doug

Posted by: djellison Nov 9 2007, 07:51 AM

I would happily drive closer - but I wouldn't dare get within an IDD's reach. I wouldn't get closer to the base of the cliff than the height of the cliff ( a 45 degree local horizon ) - because that's when the power and comms start to get impacted.

Doug

Posted by: Aussie Nov 9 2007, 09:05 AM

Horton.
Thank you. The x-eyed views are much appreciated. Is it my imagination or is slumping and a rockfall a reasonable explanation for the diagonal feature and its abrupt termination.

Posted by: fredk Nov 9 2007, 04:57 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 9 2007, 06:06 AM) *
There is no way on God's Red Mars that I could resist driving Oppy over to Cabo Verde and have her spend a few months working over that rock face.

Anyone wanna speculate?

We've heard from the top that this is not on, but it sure is fun to imagine this, and who knows, perhaps if an interesting enough target was spotted they'd rethink their decision?

As far as Verde goes, from the orbital view the surface looks sandy between us and the lower cliff, so it might actually be hard to drive across to the lowest, tastiest looking faces.

I'm sure other cliffs would be easier to access, and as we discussed before you'd want ideally a north facing cliff during the southern winter and so on. I don't know whether the reduced ability to communicate near a cliff face would be critical. As far as falling rock I imagine the background rate is extremely low, but I'd be more worried about pulling the rat out.

Posted by: PhilCo126 Nov 9 2007, 06:10 PM

Do we know how 'deep' Victoria Crater is towards the middle (I know the sandy dunes in the uplifted middle lay a bit higher)?

Posted by: BrianL Nov 9 2007, 06:44 PM

Great pic, Horton. Now, what has happened to our lizard? Did the dust storm drive it away? laugh.gif

Brian

Posted by: Shaka Nov 9 2007, 07:52 PM

unsure.gif It looks to me that, from the standpoint of winter sun position, Cabo Frio would be a better destination over the medium term, or, even better, the unnamed cape three south from Frio. These offer a northerly slope and avoidance of cape shadows over most of the day. This assumes, of course, that we are capable of crossing the sandy barriers that lie between us and those capes. If not then we probably have to climb back up out of Duck Bay, and circle around on top to the southerly capes.

Posted by: fredk Nov 10 2007, 07:10 PM

Driving to cliff faces is fun to think about, but more realistically I'm wondering what will come after we're done studying the three layers we're parked at now. I seem to recall discussions about driving in deeper, depending on what the surface looked like from up close. Well http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/1346/1P247676459EFF8788P2264R1M1.JPG show the surface downslope, but I don't know how drivable it is. There's clearly some exposed rock, but also sand and very small ripples.

Another factor might be solar illumination as we head towards southern fall (one month away) and winter. It will be better to be tilted north, so one of the bays on the south rim of Victoria would be ideal. Possibilities are Bays L1, K1, N1, and the south ends of O1 and I1, all of which have slopes roughly comparable to Duck Bay.

Posted by: fredk Nov 11 2007, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (BrianL @ Nov 9 2007, 06:44 PM) *
Now, what has happened to our lizard? Did the dust storm drive it away? laugh.gif


Good lighting has banished it back into the shadowy world from which jpeg artifacts and poor illumination had allowed it to momentarily emerge. wink.gif

Posted by: brellis Nov 12 2007, 02:02 AM

That sand looks deep. Have the rovers made it through anything that deep before?

Posted by: Shaka Nov 12 2007, 05:42 AM

The MER have crossed a lot of sand, most of significant, though undetermined, depth, and only gotten bogged down a few times. I would suppose that the chance of getting bogged is determined more by how the MER drive, than by the sand depth. I suspect we have to worry more about the composition of the sand - it's fineness and 'fluffiness', than about its depth. The main depth issue probably comes in when we are trying to climb uphill out of the crater. If the sand is enough to cause the wheel cleats to lose contact with the rock - whether a centimeter or a meter deep - we may be in trouble.
On a flat run there may be no trouble. We should, however, take a close look at the sandy patches before we cross. wheel.gif unsure.gif

Posted by: Shaka Nov 14 2007, 01:11 AM

QUOTE (Shaka @ Oct 22 2007, 08:03 PM) *
Ahem. So I guess we have now begun our first official transect down the Duck Bay exposure, and ought to begin the 'geologizing' from the top down:

Unit C is distinct from B in its appearance, having much more smoothly-eroded, coplanar blocks that give it the "bright ring" albedo, in contrast to B and D. Whether its microstructure and composition are similarly distinct awaits the result of IDD analyses.

Now, 3 weeks later we have such an IDD analysis - at exposure "Smith"- as beautifully assembled for our enjoyment by Horton HH :http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/2007297211/
We don't have any spectrometry results yet, but the MIs do seem to indicate that there are no visible concretions in the "Bright Band" (my unit C). Perhaps the absence of blueberries explains why the band is bright, but this fact should explain its erosion peculiarities as well. I believe I can still see some mini-vugs in Smith, so there remains that link with the upper units.
Is anyone prepared to offer a hypothesis regarding the origin of the bright ring yet? cool.gif

Posted by: SpaceListener Nov 14 2007, 04:32 AM

QUOTE (Shaka @ Nov 11 2007, 11:42 PM) *
I suspect we have to worry more about the composition of the sand - it's fineness and 'fluffiness', than about its depth. The main depth issue probably comes in when we are trying to climb uphill out of the crater.

The firmness of the sand seems to be more related to some kind of cemented sand after eons years. Hence, it is not a wind-deposited sand. I think that the sand from the slope must be somewhat loose since its origin is of wind sand deposited. The other factor is about the slope of the firm land which sand covers. Let suppose that these loose sand is of little depth, lets say, about less than 3 centimeters (cm)s, I think that the MER would be able grasp the firm floor after slipping some revolutions. It would be possible when the slope is smooth, less than 10 degrees. The slope below the duck bay is greater than 24 degree close to the rims but the slope will lower at lower altitudes of crater. Now I am imaging that the height of Victoria crater is of about 70 meters which is considered very tall. Spirit took many months to climb with much effort on the lower parts but it exceeded easier on the taller parts when the surface was more firm. The Columbia hill has about 110 meters from the bottom of the hill. Imagine it.

Hence, I feel that if Oppy goes down to the bottom of Victoria Crater, it will not be able to get out of Victoria crater anymore since the it will face slope greater than 20 degree until reaching the firm surface (stones) where Oppy is sitting on these moments.

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