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After Victoria..., .. what next?
Stu
post May 28 2007, 02:07 PM
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I know we've had rather light-hearted discussions about this before, with most people agreeing that Oppy is likely to end her days inside or on the edge of Victoria Crater, simply because there's nothing else to investigate within reach, but has Steve S got it in his mind that Oppy will head off somewhere else after Victoria? This report could be read in a way that suggests that... huh.gif


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dvandorn
post May 30 2007, 01:22 PM
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OK -- if we're seriously going to discuss where Oppy ought to go after Victoria, I must say I like Fred's idea of heading NW to get back onto the flat, almost-ripple-free terrain that lies beyond the northern extent of Victoria's apron. However, no matter what we do, we run into bad ripple/dune terrain trying to get to Ithaca.

I'd like to suggest a different set of targets. There are three craters of apparently wildly varying ages off to the east-northeast that would make a good site for a co-ordinated study set, which might only take a year or so of traveling to reach (assuming no further wheel malfunctions and the ability to travel 200+ meters a day on good "roads"). Here's my suggestion, overlain on Ustrax's regional map:

Attached Image


My proposed route is in blue, here. (Pardon the crudity, I really only have MS Paint with which to work.) Granted, it's nearly as long a traverse as getting to Ithaca, but it traverses over better, far less dangerous terrain, and I see three very interesting targets sort of grouped together at the end of the journey.

The first target to be reached I have labeled A. A is an old, degraded crater about 70% the size of Victoria. It has very much the size and appearance of Erebus, except that is is surrounded not by the etched terrain (which we know now is heavily covered with soft ripples), but with the flatter pavement we found near the landing site. It's an ancient crater, really just a ring of exposed evaporite rim material around a complete crater fill. But unlike Erebus, it's not covered over with obscuring layers of ripples. It seems to me that anything we could investigate at Erebus, we could likely investigate at A.

Just beyond A lies B, a crater roughly the same size as Victoria but with a less obvious apron and without the bay-and-cape structures. Taking a close look at B could answer some significant questions as to why Victoria has developed cape-and-bay structures, while B hasn't -- is it due to differences in the target rock, or is it differences in the erosional process?

Finally, just past B, we have C, which is almost more of an albedo feature than a crater. This one *might* not even be an impact structure -- it's roughly the same size as Victoria and B, but completely lacks a raised rim. Even when an impact structure is completely filled in this area, it leaves a ring of exposed evaporite rim deposits, but C doesn't show any signs of that. It appears to be a sinkhole more than a crater, and seems to be a source of dark dust that is swept out of C and up to the north-northwest. A sinkhole roughly the size of Victoria could teach us an *awful* lot about the subsurface structure of the entire region.

I find nowhere else within possible range where we can see such a diverse set of observation targets, and which can all be studied one after another with relative ease. Each has its own telltale signs of origin and history, and each appears to have undergone significantly different origins and erosional processes -- which is quite interesting, since they're all in fairly close proximity to each other. A study of all three features would, IMHO, give us a far better idea of what processes formed this entire area than looking at the very much more highly shocked remnants of the much larger impact that formed Ithaca. Each also provides variations on what we have already learned at Endurance, Erebus and Victoria, which should help us put those findings in a better regional context.

So -- not only do I see a good set of targets, I see a set of targets that are both easier to reach and at least as valuable to study as Ithaca would be.

What do y'all think?

-the other Doug


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fredk
post May 30 2007, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (dvandorn @ May 30 2007, 01:22 PM) *
OK -- if we're seriously going to discuss where Oppy ought to go after Victoria, I must say I like Fred's idea of heading NW to get back onto the flat, almost-ripple-free terrain that lies beyond the northern extent of Victoria's apron....

I'd like to suggest a different set of targets. There are three craters of apparently wildly varying ages off to the east-northeast that would make a good site for a co-ordinated study set, which might only take a year or so of traveling to reach... So -- not only do I see a good set of targets, I see a set of targets that are both easier to reach and at least as valuable to study as Ithaca would be.

What do y'all think?
You read my mind, Doug! When I proposed my "escape route" onto the "tarmac" through the shortest stretch of dunes to the northeast of Victoria, I was eyeing those Victoria-class craters (A, B, C) as the first major targets, followed by (Hirise images favourable!) a drive southwards to the north rim of Big.

I really have to stress how much faster (and easier!) driving was from Endurance to Purgatory 1 versus Purgatory to Beagle. Just look at the route maps! It seems so obvious that, unless there was an extremely interesting target that could only be reached through a vast sea of dunes, getting back on the tarmac as quickly as possible would maximize the scientific return from the rover. Remember - we were doing 200 metres a day on the tarmac!!

As I believe SS has commented himself, we're at a stage now where getting information about the horizontal variation of the geology is as important if not more so than what we see vertically at Victoria. Once we're thoroughly done with Victoria, getting back on the tarmac is the only practical way to study those horizontal variations over significant distances.
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Posts in this topic
- Stu   After Victoria...   May 28 2007, 02:07 PM
- - Sunspot   But isn't the nearest feature of any significa...   May 28 2007, 02:30 PM
|- - Oren Iishi   [quote name='Sunspot' date='May 28 200...   May 28 2007, 03:47 PM
- - ustrax   "We're going to do a lot of good science,...   May 28 2007, 02:35 PM
- - fredk   It's hard to conclude much at all from those p...   May 28 2007, 03:28 PM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (fredk @ May 28 2007, 04:28 PM) Mor...   May 28 2007, 03:58 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   As prep work, it would be nice to see HiRISE image...   May 28 2007, 03:35 PM
- - djellison   Scientifically it could be. Two, three or more ye...   May 28 2007, 05:03 PM
- - MarsIsImportant   Ustrax, I believe the bottom image is a stretched ...   May 28 2007, 05:07 PM
- - tuvas   During the last HiRISE team meeting, I think it wa...   May 28 2007, 05:18 PM
|- - fredk   Thanks, tuvas, for tossing some very tasty nuggets...   May 28 2007, 06:31 PM
- - tuvas   Oh, I have no doubt that before a target is chosen...   May 28 2007, 06:47 PM
- - David   It wasn't even possible to have a serious disc...   May 28 2007, 09:37 PM
- - nprev   Yes... ... amazing that there's now concern o...   May 28 2007, 10:56 PM
- - CosmicRocker   I was ready to say that Erebus is a valid future t...   May 29 2007, 12:39 AM
- - Bill Harris   Any future target will have to be down-section, aw...   May 29 2007, 02:54 AM
- - dvandorn   I think we should look at the entirety of Steve...   May 29 2007, 07:30 AM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (dvandorn @ May 29 2007, 08:30 AM) ...   May 29 2007, 08:05 AM
|- - ustrax   I've been bothering SS with the Ithaca issue, ...   May 29 2007, 03:47 PM
|- - ustrax   And the whole context:   May 29 2007, 03:56 PM
- - djellison   The WHOLE context would show the distance between ...   May 29 2007, 04:16 PM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (djellison @ May 29 2007, 05:16 PM)...   May 29 2007, 04:51 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (ustrax @ May 29 2007, 05:51 PM) Yo...   May 29 2007, 05:50 PM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (djellison @ May 29 2007, 06:50 PM)...   May 30 2007, 10:01 AM
|- - climber   QUOTE (ustrax @ May 30 2007, 12:01 PM) Do...   May 30 2007, 10:11 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (ustrax @ May 30 2007, 11:01 AM) bu...   May 30 2007, 10:30 AM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (djellison @ May 30 2007, 11:30 AM)...   May 30 2007, 11:04 AM
|- - Edward Schmitz   QUOTE (djellison @ May 30 2007, 03:30 AM)...   May 30 2007, 04:08 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Edward Schmitz @ May 30 2007, 05:0...   May 30 2007, 04:13 PM
- - Stu   As much as I love the romance of that idea, it doe...   May 29 2007, 05:36 PM
- - babakm   Here's a perspective view from the HRSCView ap...   May 29 2007, 05:46 PM
- - alan   Maybe someday the romantics will get their wish an...   May 29 2007, 10:15 PM
- - fredk   You guys want completely uncalled for, brazen spec...   May 29 2007, 11:59 PM
|- - ElkGroveDan   QUOTE (fredk @ May 29 2007, 03:59 PM) ......   May 30 2007, 12:28 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ May 29 2007, 05:28 P...   May 30 2007, 12:48 AM
|- - gallen_53   QUOTE (nprev @ May 30 2007, 12:48 AM) I...   May 30 2007, 04:19 AM
- - Stu   Don't underestimate the value of "pretty ...   May 30 2007, 07:36 AM
- - djellison   BUT - there is a point at which there would be cri...   May 30 2007, 07:42 AM
|- - Stu   QUOTE (djellison @ May 30 2007, 08:42 AM)...   May 30 2007, 08:03 AM
- - climber   I understand the wish of engeneers to see how the ...   May 30 2007, 07:44 AM
|- - zoost   QUOTE (climber @ May 30 2007, 07:44 AM) C...   May 30 2007, 08:07 AM
|- - Edward Schmitz   QUOTE (climber @ May 30 2007, 12:44 AM) ....   May 30 2007, 03:59 PM
- - Toma B   That is why we love MERs so much...there are both ...   May 30 2007, 07:45 AM
- - djellison   In the context of Opportunity - a trip to Ithaca w...   May 30 2007, 08:06 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (djellison @ May 29 2007, 03:03 AM)...   May 30 2007, 11:08 AM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (Stephen @ May 30 2007, 12:08 PM) B...   May 30 2007, 11:32 AM
|- - djellison   Stephen - have you looked at the HiRISE image to t...   May 30 2007, 12:03 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (djellison @ May 30 2007, 10:03 PM)...   Jun 1 2007, 11:35 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (djellison @ May 30 2007, 10:03 PM)...   Jun 1 2007, 11:43 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Stephen @ Jun 1 2007, 12:43 PM) Ca...   Jun 1 2007, 12:58 PM
- - Stu   I think most people here know just how much I live...   May 30 2007, 11:23 AM
- - Stu   Admit it ustrax, you just made that 'old sayin...   May 30 2007, 11:53 AM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (Stu @ May 30 2007, 12:53 PM) Admit...   May 30 2007, 01:28 PM
- - dvandorn   OK -- if we're seriously going to discuss wher...   May 30 2007, 01:22 PM
|- - fredk   QUOTE (dvandorn @ May 30 2007, 01:22 PM) ...   May 30 2007, 05:54 PM
- - djellison   I gotta say - those second two craters look damn i...   May 30 2007, 01:54 PM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (djellison @ May 30 2007, 02:54 PM)...   May 30 2007, 02:04 PM
||- - Stu   QUOTE (ustrax @ May 30 2007, 03:04 PM) Wh...   May 30 2007, 02:06 PM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (ustrax @ May 30 2007, 03:04 PM) Wh...   May 30 2007, 02:10 PM
||- - ustrax   QUOTE (djellison @ May 30 2007, 03:10 PM)...   May 30 2007, 02:25 PM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (djellison @ May 30 2007, 08:54 AM)...   May 30 2007, 03:12 PM
- - Stu   I know the romantic explorer in you can hear Ithac...   May 30 2007, 01:57 PM
- - algorimancer   Heading due east from Victoria would indeed be a v...   May 30 2007, 02:20 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (algorimancer @ May 30 2007, 03:20 ...   May 30 2007, 03:04 PM
||- - algorimancer   QUOTE (djellison @ May 30 2007, 10:04 AM)...   May 30 2007, 03:36 PM
|- - FIN Mars   QUOTE (algorimancer @ May 30 2007, 04:20 ...   Jun 3 2007, 07:50 PM
- - babakm   The area directly South of Victoria looks pretty b...   May 30 2007, 03:25 PM
|- - ustrax   Leaving aside the possible interest of the crater ...   May 30 2007, 03:47 PM
- - gallen_53   I think MER-B should aggressively explore Victoria...   May 30 2007, 03:37 PM
|- - helvick   QUOTE (gallen_53 @ May 30 2007, 04:37 PM)...   May 30 2007, 06:58 PM
- - dvandorn   Exactly -- as Doug says, we need more HiRISE image...   May 30 2007, 03:51 PM
- - djellison   We just built three new PC's here at work - Ar...   May 30 2007, 03:55 PM
- - Edward Schmitz   Dvandorn had an alternative idea above that doesn...   May 30 2007, 04:40 PM
- - algorimancer   I sure wish the HiRISE and other orbiter teams wou...   May 30 2007, 04:48 PM
|- - babakm   QUOTE (algorimancer @ May 30 2007, 04:48 ...   May 30 2007, 05:17 PM
- - dvandorn   QUOTE (fredk @ May 30 2007, 12:54 PM) You...   May 30 2007, 07:10 PM
- - MarsIsImportant   I like the Craters A, B, and C idea better than st...   May 31 2007, 04:10 AM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (MarsIsImportant @ May 31 2007, 12...   May 31 2007, 04:24 AM
- - Pando   Hey Ustrax, my good friend, remember the good ...   May 31 2007, 05:25 AM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (Pando @ May 31 2007, 06:25 AM) ......   May 31 2007, 08:29 AM
- - gpurcell   The rover spent a heck of a lot of time getting to...   Jun 1 2007, 01:40 PM
|- - Edward Schmitz   QUOTE (gpurcell @ Jun 1 2007, 06:40 AM) T...   Jun 1 2007, 04:50 PM
- - djellison   I agree on that one - there's years of stuff h...   Jun 1 2007, 02:10 PM
- - djellison   But thinking about afterwards means you have to co...   Jun 1 2007, 04:55 PM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 1 2007, 05:55 PM) ...   Jun 1 2007, 07:37 PM
- - djellison   Actually - on another forum someone suggested that...   Jun 1 2007, 08:00 PM
- - algorimancer   Getting back to the question of whether the region...   Jun 1 2007, 08:33 PM
- - fredk   That's good to hear, algorimancer! We rea...   Jun 2 2007, 05:07 PM
- - stevesliva   What is to the north of Endurance? If we retrace ...   Jun 4 2007, 03:15 AM
- - edstrick   What's north of Endurance is one or two of tho...   Jun 4 2007, 06:29 AM
- - PaulM   Oppy seems to be surviving the storm and assuming ...   Aug 16 2007, 12:01 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (PaulM @ Aug 16 2007, 01:01 PM) if ...   Aug 16 2007, 12:07 PM
- - Floyd   Welcome to UMSF PaulM. I'm not sure exac...   Aug 16 2007, 12:35 PM
|- - algorimancer   QUOTE (Floyd @ Aug 16 2007, 07:35 AM) ......   Aug 16 2007, 01:03 PM
|- - antoniseb   QUOTE (algorimancer @ Aug 16 2007, 07:03 ...   Aug 16 2007, 01:16 PM
- - Tom Tamlyn   And don't forget Argos, the aged, faithful dog...   Aug 16 2007, 02:44 PM
- - PaulM   I find it interesting to speculate where the ...   Aug 16 2007, 06:47 PM
- - mhoward   Speaking of the "Oddysey," or the ...   Aug 16 2007, 08:55 PM
- - algorimancer   QUOTE (mhoward @ Aug 16 2007, 03:55 PM) ....   Aug 16 2007, 10:52 PM
- - BrianL   So, with the news that it is time to move on, and ...   Feb 5 2008, 06:23 AM
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