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Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ Chang'e program _ Chang'e 5 sample return mission

Posted by: yaohua2000 Nov 6 2012, 12:28 AM

Chang'e 5 atmospheric re-entry and parachute ejection system tested.

 

Posted by: Paolo Jan 20 2013, 10:15 AM

A paper (in Chinese) on the design of the Chang'e sample return drill. it includes a nice CAD view of the probe
http://zgkj.cast.cn/EN/abstract/abstract10631.shtmlhttp://zgkj.cast.cn/EN/abstract/abstract10631.shtml

Posted by: kenny Dec 16 2013, 08:30 PM

Today's bland news from Xinhua News Agency... but.... what is Chang'e 4 going to do?
A repeat of Chang'e 3 with a new Rover?

BEIJING, Dec. 16 (Xinhua) -- China plans to launch lunar probe Chang'e 5 in 2017, according to the State Administration of Science, Technology and Industry for
National Defense. The development of Chang'e 5 is proceeding smoothly, said the administration's spokesman Wu Zhijian at a press conference on Monday.

The just-concluded Chang'e 3 mission marked completion of the second phase of the country's lunar program, which includes orbiting, landing and returning to Earth.

The lunar program will enter the next stage of unmanned sampling and returning, which will include Chang'e 5 and 6 missions, according to Wu.


Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 16 2013, 08:44 PM

The feeling among China-watchers seems to be that Chang'E 4 will do what CE2 did for CE1 - if CE1 failed it's a simple back-up, but when CE1 succeeded, CE2 became an opportunity to test advanced technology. It flew a direct route to the Moon instead of several increasing orbits, it carried advanced cameras, it flew a more complex orbital mission including low altitude flyovers of the landing area for very high resolution imaging.

So for CE4 there are reports it will carry advanced auto-navigation software. And my impression now is that it may test sample collection and handling tools as well. All in preparation for CE5 and CE6. So still a rover mission, but more advanced.

Phil

Posted by: tolis Dec 16 2013, 09:22 PM

May they also try re-igniting the lander's main engine to send it on a ballistic
hop to a different site? I think Surveyor did that, albeit to only a few feet away to enable
stereo coverage of the surrounding area. They may not wish to do the same with Chang'e 3
as it marks, more so than the rover, the site of the first Chinese landing on the Moon.


Posted by: Airbag Dec 16 2013, 09:33 PM

No, I read that one of the first tasks for the lander was to vent the propulsion system.

Airbag

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Dec 16 2013, 09:34 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 16 2013, 09:44 PM) *
The feeling among China-watchers seems to be that Chang'E 4 will do what CE2 did for CE1 - if CE1 failed it's a simple back-up, but when CE1 succeeded, CE2 became an opportunity to test advanced technology. It flew a direct route to the Moon instead of several increasing orbits, it carried advanced cameras, it flew a more complex orbital mission including low altitude flyovers of the landing area for very high resolution imaging.

So for CE4 there are reports it will carry advanced auto-navigation software. And my impression now is that it may test sample collection and handling tools as well. All in preparation for CE5 and CE6. So still a rover mission, but more advanced.

Phil


It seem's your right:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2013-12/16/c_132971844.htm
English.news.cn 2013-12-16 15:04:11

"As the backup probe of Chang'e-3, Chang'e-4 will be adapted to verify technologies for Chang'e-5, according to Wu."

Thorsten

Posted by: kenny Dec 20 2013, 10:28 PM

From the same article, I thought this was significant:

The lunar program will enter the next stage of unmanned sampling and returning, which will include Chang'e-5 and 6 missions, according to Wu.
"The program's third phase will be more difficult because many breakthroughs must be made in key technologies such as moon surface takeoff,
sampling encapsulation, rendezvous and docking in lunar orbit, and high-speed Earth reentry, which are all new to China," Wu said.

Rendezvous and docking in lunar orbit is curious, as this diagram previously released seems to show a return capsule lifting directly off the moon' surface,
like the Soviet Luna 16 etc. You wouldn't carry the weight of an earth-return capsule down to the lunar surface if you planned to transfer the samples
in lunar orbit.



Posted by: pospa Dec 21 2013, 12:16 AM

QUOTE (kenny @ Dec 20 2013, 11:28 PM) *
Rendezvous and docking in lunar orbit is curious, as this diagram previously released seems to show a return capsule lifting directly off the moon' surface, ...

That diagram in your post is quite old.
This one bellow should more reflect the latest return mission design:


Posted by: kenny Dec 21 2013, 11:21 AM

Dekuji, thanks.... that makes more sense when we see the size of the return module in this recent test.



Posted by: SpaceListener Dec 21 2013, 03:06 PM

I suspect that the planned trip of spaceship Chang'e-5 to the Moon is due to the required time to upgrade the capacity of rocket to send a much heavier Chang'e-5.

Posted by: vjkane Dec 21 2013, 10:35 PM

QUOTE (pospa @ Dec 20 2013, 04:16 PM) *
That diagram in your post is quite old.
This one bellow should more reflect the latest return mission design:

Do you know the source of the diagram? I'd like to use it for my blog.

Posted by: 0101Morpheus Dec 22 2013, 01:52 AM

I feel that the design of the sample return can be used as proof in concept for future planetary missions such as a Mars sample return like we have been wanting for decades.

Posted by: djellison Dec 22 2013, 02:56 AM

Whilst some technology could be carried across - the requirement for Mars ascent and lunar ascent are very different. 2x the gravity, plus an atmosphere to deal with. The two vehicles would be very different.


Posted by: pospa Dec 22 2013, 08:40 AM

QUOTE (vjkane @ Dec 21 2013, 11:35 PM) *
Do you know the source of the diagram? I'd like to use it for my blog.

I took it from here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33431.msg1134230#msg1134230
And Chinese original can be found here: http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/read.php?tid=981809

Admin Note: Be aware that on the Chinese website a pop-up appears.

Posted by: Gofar Dec 25 2013, 09:32 AM

Add here is some lastest news for China's Chang'e Project 4&5 and manned Lunar exploration,
2013-12-25
People.com.cn Guangzhou on 25 December, (Sun Lu) yesterday morning, "the father", China academician Ye Peijian guest lectures "Pearl River Science Forum", the Chinese lunar and deep space exploration, said the return mode Chang'e five innovation, and before the rumors of the "abolition of China's manned moon" the false news responded.

作为中国空间飞行器及信息处理专家的叶培建,曾任嫦娥一号卫星系统总指挥兼总设计师。现任航天科技集团公司科技委顾问,航天科技集团公司嫦娥三号探测器系统首席科学家、嫦娥五号总设计师、总指挥顾问,空间科学与深空探测首席专家。

As China space vehicle and information processing expert Ye Peijian, a former Chang'e-1 satellite system commander and chief designer. The aerospace technology group science and Technology Committee consultant, China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation, the chief scientist of three probe system Chang'e five chief designer, commander in chief expert consultants, space science and deep space exploration.

“玉兔号”月球车今日凌晨“冬眠”

"Rabbit" Rover "hibernation early this morning"

据叶培建介绍,由于月球绕着地球转一圈是28天,月球的一天是地球的28天,因此月球的一个白天是地球的14天,月球的一个晚上也是地球的14天,昨日到今日要进入月夜,温度将下降到零下负170度,而夜晚无太阳无法发电,月球车要“冻死了”,所以今天的凌晨月球车设置为冬眠状态。但之后仍然需要它“活过来”好好工作,所以在这次的着陆器和巡视器上我国第一次使用核同位素发热,让月球车可以在负170度的情况底下保持最低的生存条件。另外,还设置了一个唤醒电路,到下个月月初、太阳再升起来的时候,试着把它“叫醒”,但是否可行还有待事实证明。

According to Ye Peijian introduction, as the moon moves around the earth is round 28 days, the moon day is 28 Earth days, so one day the moon is the earth's 14 days, the moon for one night is 14 Earth days, yesterday to today to enter the moonlit night, the temperature will drop to minus 170 degrees and the night without the sun, no power, the lunar rover to "freeze", so today's morning of lunar rover is set to a state of hibernation. But still need it "live" good work, so in the lander and Rover on the China first use nuclear isotope fever, let the rover can maintain the lowest living conditions in 170 case. In addition, also set up a wake-up circuit, by the time of next month, the sun will rise up, try to "wake up", but is feasible remains to be proved.

嫦娥五号返回方式将创新

Chang'e five return mode innovation

叶建培描述了嫦娥五号从发射到返回的整个过程。

Ye Jianpei described the Chang'e five from launch to the whole procedure returns.

嫦娥五号将到新建的海南发射场、用新研制的长征五号发射,它由4个器组成,着陆器、上升器、轨道器、返回器。这4个器的组合体打到月球轨道,打到月球轨道以后轨道器、返回器成一个组合,着陆器、上升器呈一个组合,这两个组合分离,着陆器带着上升器像嫦娥三号一样,降低在预定的地区。

The goddess of the moon will be five to the newly established Hainan launch site, using the newly developed long march five launch, it consists of 4 components, the lander, riser, the orbiter, return device. Combination of these 4 devices to the orbit of the moon, to the orbit of the moon after the orbiter, return to a portfolio, the lander, which is a combination of rising, the two combination, the lander with riser like Chang'e three, lower in the predetermined area.

着陆器上有两个机械手,一个机械手在月球表面采样、封装到容器里,另一个机械手能在月球上打钻2米深,采集地下样品并封装。机械手会将封装后的容器转移到着陆器的上升器里,上升器将从月面上起飞,进入月球轨道后,轨道器和返回器的组合体去追它,交汇到一起后,把上升器里面的样品转回到转移器,然后把上升器扔掉,轨道器和返回器绕过月球返回地球。

There are two robot lander, a mechanical hand sampling, on the surface of the moon packaging into the container, the other a robot on the moon drilling 2 meters deep underground, collecting samples and packaging. The manipulator will be transferred to the container after rising for lander, a riser will take off from the lunar surface, to enter the moon's orbit, the orbiter and return device combination to chase it, meeting together, put up inside the samples back to the transfer device, and then the riser away, orbiter and return device around the moon back to earth.

叶培建表示,嫦娥五号的返回会有一个很大的创新。过去都是直接返回,这一次为了解决落点、着陆角以调整冲击力的问题,决定分离进入大气层到60公里时不回来,再跳回到宇宙当中去,再跳回大气层,然后再回来。“通过这个办法,距离越长,走的时间越长,我们可以得到很多好处,可以减少发热,减少着陆角等等,这种返回方式也将是我们的第一次试验。”

Ye Peijian said, Chang'e five return there will be a great innovation. The past is returned directly, this time in order to solve the landing, landing angle to adjust the impact of the problem, decided to separate into the atmosphere to 60 km does not come back, then jumped back to the universe, then jump back to the atmosphere, and then come back. "In this way, the longer the distance, go longer, we can get a lot of benefits, can reduce fever, reduce the landing angle and so on, this return mode will also be the first test of our."

叶建培也说明,为了增加可靠性,将先发射试验器,这就是明年发射的嫦娥四号。嫦娥四号将打到月球但不落月,它的返回器和嫦娥五号的返回器一模一样,可以用来验证这种返回方式。

Ye Jianpei also shows that, in order to increase the reliability, will be the first emission tester, which is the next launch Chang'e four. Chang'e four will hit the moon but not fall months, its return device and Chang'e five return device as like as two peas, can be used to verify this return mode.

目前中国没有载人登月计划

At present China not manned lunar program

对于之前网上在传的我国将取消载人登月计划的消息,叶培建用三句话概括了我国对载人登月计划的态度:“第一,人类要征服太空首先要去月球,美国人去过了,中国人一定要去,中国人也一定能够去;第二,目前我们国家没有任何载人登月的计划,因此也无所谓前几天网上传的取消这个计划的无稽之谈,没有这个计划就没有取消;第三,一个国家有没有载人登月的计划要看国家的实力、国家综合发展的需要,随着国家经济能力的发展和科学技术的进步,我认为中国迟迟晚晚是要搞载人登月的。”

For before the Internet will cancel the manned moon landing plan in our country the news, Ye Peijian uses three words summed up China's attitude to the manned moon landing plan ": first, the human to conquer space must first go to the moon, the Americans have been to, Chinese must go, Chinese will be able to; second, at present our country has no manned moon landing plan, therefore also does not matter a few days before the Internet to cancel the plan is not groundless statement, this plan would not cancel; third, no manned landing on the moon has a national plan to watch the national strength, comprehensive national development needs, with the development of national economy and science ability the progress of technology, I think Chinese has been late to the manned lunar landing."

同时叶培建也透露最近一版的航天白皮书已经明确提出我国已经开始载人登月的关键技术研究,表示希望在有生之年能够看到中国人登上月球。

At the same time, Ye Peijian also revealed that a recent edition of the white paper has clearly put forward the Aerospace China has begun to research on the key technology of manned lunar landing, expressed the hope to see Chinese landed on the moon in the rest of one's life.

Posted by: Astro0 Dec 25 2013, 11:06 AM

ADMIN NOTE: A PM was sent to Gofar about the Forum rules on discussion of 'manned spaceflight'. As this is one of their first posts and simply a translation, no action is required. Obviously no further discussion needs to be entered into on the subject. Thanks all. smile.gif

Posted by: Cosmic Penguin Aug 10 2014, 10:30 AM

The Chinese are going to launch a prototype of the CE-5 descent module on a free-return trajectory around the Moon and back this October: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-08/10/c_133546027.htm

(this has been known for some time, but not well advertised by the Chinese. Given this is flying before IXV and EFT-1 maybe we need a dedicated thread here now? tongue.gif )

Posted by: charborob Sep 3 2014, 11:41 AM

According to http://www.space.com/27011-china-moon-orbiter-recoverable-prototype-launch.html, the Chang'e 5 prototype will be an orbiter and will be called Chang'e 4. It is the backup for Chang'e 3 that has been "adapted to verify the technologies needed for the Chang'e 5 mission". Well, it looks like the Chinese won't send another rover as a follow-up to Chang'e 3. Too bad, from a lunar surface exploration point of view.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Sep 3 2014, 01:25 PM

The mission numbering might just be an assumption by the writer, Leonard David. It's hard to know anything for certain at the moment. My understanding had been that the sample return test capsule would be carried by an orbiter more like Chang'E 2 , but everything is uncertain until it happens. I still hope for a rover mission to try to overcome the problems experienced by Yutu, but that's just me wishing for something!

Phil


Posted by: A.Nemo Sep 6 2014, 09:54 AM

QUOTE (charborob @ Sep 3 2014, 07:41 PM) *
According to http://www.space.com/27011-china-moon-orbiter-recoverable-prototype-launch.html, the Chang'e 5 prototype will be an orbiter and will be called Chang'e 4. It is the backup for Chang'e 3 that has been "adapted to verify the technologies needed for the Chang'e 5 mission". Well, it looks like the Chinese won't send another rover as a follow-up to Chang'e 3. Too bad, from a lunar surface exploration point of view.


Chang'e-5 pathfinder will be launched in october, it may be called Chang'e-5 T1(test?)
Chang'e-4 will be launched in 2016, it will another rover ,while added a sample arm, verify the lunar sample technology for Chang'e-5

Posted by: A.Nemo Sep 6 2014, 09:56 AM

http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2014-09/05/content_2745753.htm
他表示,嫦娥五号的主要任务是去月球取样,并把样品拿回来。也就是完成探月工程“绕月-落月-返回”三部曲中,最为艰巨的“返回”任务。嫦娥三号“落月”地点位于虹湾地区,而嫦娥五号则准备在风暴洋附近。两者相距非常远,不会产生交叉。
Chang'e-5 will be landed in the Oceanus Procellarum

I think Chang'e-4 will also landed here

Posted by: Phil Stooke Sep 6 2014, 06:55 PM

Thank you for all this very useful information.

Phil

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Oct 14 2014, 08:53 PM

Cháng'é-whatevernumber will be launched next October 23:

http://www.space.com/27422-china-moon-mission-launch-october.html

Will we finally know what is Cháng'é-4 (rover, reentry-test, cancelled, other)? unsure.gif

Thorsten

Posted by: elakdawalla Oct 16 2014, 06:14 PM

I tweeted that and had a couple of different people correct me who said that the thing that is launching in October is called Chang'e 5 Test Device, or Chang'e 5 T-1.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 16 2014, 07:15 PM

There is terrible confusion about this in the media, but it seems clear that there will be a future lander and rover called Chang'E 4, in 2016, which will test the soil-sampling equipment for the sample mission. This re-entry test flight is not Chang'E 4.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo Oct 16 2014, 07:36 PM

I may be wrong but I think I have never seen the test flight of the sample return capsule called "Chang'E 4" in Chinese media

Posted by: elakdawalla Oct 16 2014, 08:09 PM

https://t.co/QbooSm1OF8 from August 10, which refers to the impending launch as 嫦娥五号 试验器, Chang'e 5 Test Vehicle.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 16 2014, 08:20 PM

Paolo, I think you're right - but it's a mess in the western media.

Phil

Posted by: Ron Hobbs Oct 16 2014, 11:30 PM

Spaceflight Now's International Launch Schedule bills it as "Chang'e 5 Precursor."

"A Chinese Long March 3C rocket will launch a mission to demonstrate re-entry technologies for the planned Chang'e 5 lunar sample return mission."


Posted by: Thorsten Denk Oct 17 2014, 03:10 PM

http://www.spaceflight101.com/change-5-test-mission.html.
They call it "Chang'e 5-T1", but I wonder if the "T1" is really official.

With respect to Chang'e-4, I found at nasaspaceflight.com the following http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34162.msg1272092#msg1272092
(« Reply #38 on: 10/16/2014 11:53 PM ») from User "Blackstar":

QUOTE
So I conversed a bit with a reporter about this issue. He says that he has a source who has provided some information on the CE-4 mission (lander/rover) and will be writing an article about that soon.

So maybe we will learn something new soon.

I hope so too. smile.gif

Maybe (my speculation) they are redesigning the lander now,
taking into account the lessons learned from Chang'e-3.
When finished, then they'll let us know...

Thorsten

Posted by: dvandorn Oct 18 2014, 02:28 AM

"Blackstar" on that forum is a science and aerospace writer/historian named Dwayne Day, who has more connections in the industry than most NASA administrators... He may occasionally pass along rumors (as we all do on occasion), but his rumors are usually more reliable than press releases from the various agencies, universities and aerospace firms.

The best information I've heard is that Chang'e 4 will be not only a revamped version of Yutu, but will also test the sample collection and caching systems. Chang'e 5 will then be the sample return mission. What I've not heard is whether the lander that carries the Chang'e 5 rover will also carry the ascent vehicle that will rendezvous with the orbiter with the Earth return capsule.

If they send separate flights with the rover lander, the ascent vehicle and the Earth return orbiter, the rover will have to be able to make its way to the ascent vehicle to deliver its samples. This would make this a combination LOR/LSR mission architecture -- lunar orbit rendezvous plus lunar surface rendezvous.

I'll be very interested in seeing what they end up doing. If they do it that way, though, they can really do some robust recon and sample return work on the Moon, which will be really interesting to see.

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Posted by: Paolo Oct 18 2014, 07:15 AM

as fare as I know, CE-5 will not carry a rover. samples are collected by a robotic arm and the lander carries the ascent rocket to put samples in lunar orbit for rendezvous with the Earth return module.
see for ex http://www.spaceflight101.com/uploads/6/4/0/6/6406961/306814_orig.jpg

Posted by: dvandorn Oct 18 2014, 12:39 PM

Okay, kewl. A rather less robust geological exploration in re the sample return, then. As with the Soviet Luna sample return spacecraft, your selection of samples is limited to the variety available within reach of an arm attached to the lander. Certainly, this is more robust than, say, the seminal APXS systems flown on Surveyor, which had a variety of targets limited to an area less than a square foot (and that only when improvised operations using Surveyor's digging scoop arm to push the APXS sensor away from the ground directly below its deployment housing -- without that improvisation, Surveyor would have a target selection pre-determined by the single spot over which the APXS sensor was located after landing).

It *is* nice that the Chang'e return scheme, as per the illustration, will be a deep core. Such was returned by the final Luna sample return craft, as well (though perhaps not as deep as the Apollo deep cores). But we're not looking at the kind of exploration flexibility and variety, in terms of returned samples, that you could get by roving around and selecting the most interesting samples (both those that represent the common rocks and soils that define the overall area geologically plus the unique and exotic samples that represent rocks thrown into the area from other geological units far away). Yes, you would need to acquire very small samples of each type of rock you find, but that's the same challenge MSR will be facing in the next couple of decades.

I guess the good news is that China is developing an infrastructure for unmanned lunar exploration that can be exploited in a number of ways in the future. Perhaps after the deep-core sample return process has been proven out, we will see the LSR-style rover-cache-plus-separate-return-vehicle architecture developed to provide a truly robust geological exploration capability. At least, one can hope...

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Posted by: William Pei Oct 23 2014, 02:13 AM

New lunar mission to test Chang'e-5 technology
English.news.cn 2014-10-22 13:57:53

• China will launch a new lunar mission this week to test technology likely to be used in Chang'e-5.
• The experimental spacecraft is expected to reach a location near the moon and return to Earth.
• Spacecraft's speed will be slowed down so it can land safely at determined location during process.



BEIJING, Oct. 22 (Xinhua) -- China will launch a new lunar mission this week to test technology likely to be used in Chang'e-5, a future lunar probe with the ability to return to Earth.

The experimental spacecraft launched this week is expected to reach a location near the moon and return to Earth, according to the State Administration of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense on Wednesday.

The test model is currently ready and scheduled to be launched between Friday and Sunday from the Xichang Satellite Launch Center in southwest China, with the whole mission taking about eight days.

"The meteorological condition will meet the requirements for the launch," said Tao Zhongshan, chief engineer of the center.

It is the first time China has conducted a test involving a half-orbit around the moon at a height of 380,000 kilometers before having the craft return to Earth.

The return mission will involve the spacecraft entering, exiting, and re-entering Earth's atmosphere and landing, said the administration.

During this process, the spacecraft's speed will be slowed down so it can land safely at a determined location, a key capability needed for Chang'e-5, which is expected to return from the moon at a velocity of 11.2 kilometers per second, according to the scientists' explanation.

China's advanced Long March-3C carrier rocket will make its debut during the test.

The Chang'e-5 probe, expected to launch in 2017, will be tasked with landing on the moon, collecting samples and returning to Earth.

"Apart from the technology of self-returning to Earth, the probe will make breakthrough in sample collecting, moon surface takeoff, rendezvous and docking in lunar orbit," said Hu Hao, chief designer of the third phase of China's lunar probe project.

China carried out Chang'e-1 and Chang'e-2 missions in 2007 and 2010, respectively.

In December, 2013, Chang'e-3 lunar probe succeeded in soft landing on the moon, with the country's first moon rover on board. The Chang'e-3 mission marked completion of the second phase of China's lunar program, which includes orbiting, landing and returning to Earth.

PS, from other newest report, this test spacecraft will also carry two nanosatellite made by Luxembourg and Denmark, named "4M Radio Beacon" and "Pocket Spaceship PS86X1", will be released near the moon and flyby the moon.

Posted by: tolis Oct 23 2014, 09:31 PM

..and it's off:

http://www.spaceflight101.com/change-5-test-mission-updates.html


interestingly, the mission profile appears similar to that of the soviet zond missions of the late 1960s.

Posted by: A.Nemo Oct 24 2014, 01:57 PM

Before first TCM,CE5T1 take a photo of earth

 

Posted by: dvandorn Oct 24 2014, 03:06 PM

Looks like a black-and-white picture of Earth that has been tinted blue.

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Posted by: Paolo Oct 24 2014, 03:56 PM

would be interesting to know whether it comes from a proper "2D" camera, i.e. not a pushbroom one like on CE-1 and -2 or from an engineering webcam like those on CE-2

Posted by: climber Oct 24 2014, 07:14 PM

QUOTE (A.Nemo @ Oct 24 2014, 03:57 PM) *
Before first TCM,CE5T1 take a photo of earth


Looks like a black-and-white picture of Earth that has been tinted blue.

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)


We may have a blue moon thou: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_moon

Posted by: Astro0 Oct 25 2014, 06:51 AM

"...tinted blue."

More likely just the quality of the monitor it was screen-captured from. wink.gif

Posted by: dvandorn Oct 25 2014, 12:34 PM

Yeah, possibly a monitor issue. But there are no colors in that image except blue -- not even white. The clouds are just a lighter blue than the rest of the image. If it's a color image, there are no land masses visible and the white clouds have been heavily tinted.

It still looks like a tinted gray-scale image to me, to be honest. I get the feeling that if you just drew the blue channel down to where the clouds are white, the rest of the image would become gray.

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Posted by: A.Nemo Oct 26 2014, 08:29 AM

perhaps when CE5T1 reentry,there will be a live on cctv 13


 

Posted by: Paolo Oct 26 2014, 08:36 AM

I didn't notice it before... the phase of the Moon when CE-5 T1 fies by Tuesday morning will be similar to that of the Luna 3 flyby 55 years ago. so more or less the same portion of the farside will be illuminated

Posted by: A.Nemo Oct 28 2014, 01:15 PM

CE-5T1 has taken some photos of moon and earth,very beautiful!

 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 28 2014, 01:26 PM

Yes, very beautiful. That's Mare Marginis and the crater Neper on its southern (bottom) edge in the first image.

Phil


Posted by: Cosmic Penguin Oct 28 2014, 02:33 PM

QUOTE (A.Nemo @ Oct 28 2014, 09:15 PM) *
CE-5T1 has taken some photos of moon and earth,very beautiful!


Here are the photos in full resolution, from Xinhua News:

(apparently they were taken from the solar array monitoring camera - the same as the one used on Chang'e 2, so this should be the full shot)






Posted by: dvandorn Oct 28 2014, 03:06 PM

Now, *that* ain't a tinted-blue B&W pic of Earth! Very nice.

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Posted by: elakdawalla Oct 28 2014, 03:58 PM

Phil, Cosmic Penguin: what do you think the correct image credit is on these photos?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 28 2014, 04:40 PM

My best guess is CAST - the China Academy of Space Technology.

http://www.cast.cn/CastEn/

Phil

Posted by: ngunn Oct 28 2014, 04:47 PM

I can't make sense of the illumination angle in the middle image. The Moon looks to be lit a little more from below and the Earth a little more from the side. Is it just me?

EDIT: the explanation lies in this being a wide angle view. It makes sense when the image is viewed from close enough. (Earth should subtend around 2 degrees.)

Posted by: nprev Nov 1 2014, 12:23 AM

Successful reentry and landing! Here's Emily's blog article:

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/10311623-change-5-test-vehicle-lands.html

Posted by: nprev Nov 1 2014, 12:26 AM

I can't find an English-language source for this so far, but I'm very curious about the trajectory of the 'skip' that it did before reentry. Where did it execute this maneuver (i.e., over what part of the Earth)? Wondering how far it skipped.

Posted by: SpaceListener Nov 1 2014, 12:31 AM

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/China_completes_first_mission_to_moon_and_back_999.html

Posted by: nprev Nov 1 2014, 02:06 AM

Thanks. I was looking for something with more detail about the reentry maneuver itself, but it's possible--even likely, I guess--that that information is not publicly available.

Posted by: Yeh Nov 1 2014, 02:18 AM

I am relaying some images taken by a PLA journalist at the control center and posted at http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206104.htm , including an actual image during the reentry phase.

At page 11 of that webpage, there is a cartoon showing the procedure of the process. Emily's making a good point (https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/528366721875193857) that the service module might still be in the orbit. The cartoon mentioned that a maneuver was performed "to avoid collision with the capsule" but I am not seeing any information about the service module after the separation.




 

Posted by: A.Nemo Nov 1 2014, 02:31 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 1 2014, 08:26 AM) *
I can't find an English-language source for this so far, but I'm very curious about the trajectory of the 'skip' that it did before reentry. Where did it execute this maneuver (i.e., over what part of the Earth)? Wondering how far it skipped.


according nsf's satwatcher:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34162.msg1279728#msg1279728

others from chinese internet


 

Posted by: Yeh Nov 1 2014, 02:58 AM

QUOTE (Yeh @ Oct 31 2014, 09:18 PM) *
I am relaying some images taken by a PLA journalist at the control center and posted at http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206104.htm , including an actual image during the reentry phase.

At page 11 of that webpage, there is a cartoon showing the procedure of the process. Emily's making a good point (https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/528366721875193857) that the service module might still be in the orbit. The cartoon mentioned that a maneuver was performed "to avoid collision with the capsule" but I am not seeing any information about the service module after the separation.


http://news.cntv.cn/2014/11/01/ARTI1414801849741743.shtml
1:00 videos of separation between service module and capsule; starting 2:40 live video of capsule reentry.

I am answering myself... according to SASTIND head Xu Dazhe, service module is now "on its way back to the Moon" for "extending mission": http://news.cntv.cn/2014/11/01/VIDE1414801845491297.shtml at 1:40 (in Chinese).

Posted by: nprev Nov 1 2014, 07:54 AM

Thank you VERY much, Yeh and A. Nemo. Congratulations to China for this successful mission!

Posted by: Yeh Nov 2 2014, 03:25 AM

http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206266.htm

Chang'e 5 T1 service module mission extends to May 2015. The module will fly to EML2 point first, and then to a lunar orbit.

Posted by: nprev Nov 2 2014, 03:47 AM

Really! That's unexpected, and very interesting. What are the objectives of these maneuvers, Yeh? I'm guessing navigation practice and additional systems testing.

Posted by: Paolo Nov 2 2014, 07:04 AM

the L2 extension clearly shows that they are considering a farside landing mission for the future, for which a relay at the L2 would be almost necessary.
in fact, are there any hint of the extension of the unmanned Chang'e program beyond CE-6?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 2 2014, 02:39 PM

I have not heard of any extension. Conceivably Chang'E 4 could be targeted to the far side, becoming the first landing ever in that hemisphere.

Phil


Posted by: Yeh Nov 2 2014, 04:57 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 1 2014, 10:47 PM) *
Really! That's unexpected, and very interesting. What are the objectives of these maneuvers, Yeh? I'm guessing navigation practice and additional systems testing.


According to the report, it is for "verification of navigation/control technique of the Chang'e 5 mission".

Re Paolo -- interesting, I am seeing discussion on 9ifly.cn (a forum comparable to unmannedspaceflight.com in China) that also speculating that Chang'e 5 or 6 may be targeting the far side of the Moon. There are some calculations that seems to conclude that it is possible to achieve this with CZ5 launch system. Link (in Chinese): http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=4587&page=19#pid331129

Posted by: elakdawalla Nov 3 2014, 05:22 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Nov 2 2014, 06:39 AM) *
I have not heard of any extension. Conceivably Chang'E 4 could be targeted to the far side, becoming the first landing ever in that hemisphere.

THAT WOULD BE SO AWESOME. Even more awesome would be if they could send Chang'e 5 there. That would catapult the Chang'e program from following in the footsteps of past exploration to performing next steps beyond what anybody has done before.

But they targeted Chang'e 3 based on Chang'e 1 and 2 high-res imaging of the landing site. They wouldn't have high-res imaging of the far side, would they? Of course there is all the American and Japanese data to work with...

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 3 2014, 09:41 PM

Chang'E 2 only obtained the very high resolution images of its landing area around Sinus Iridum. Originally I thought that limited missions 4, 5 and 6 to that area, probably two rovers and then two sample returns in the two very distinct mare units.

Since then there have been rumors that the next landing site and the first sample return might be in Oceanus Procellarum (my guess: in the youngest mare basalt region south of Aristarchus Plateau). Now we hear about the far side. It would be a great thing to do, but I can't imagine it being the first sample return. So maybe that's a more suitable destination for Chang'E 6.

Phil

Posted by: A.Nemo Nov 10 2014, 12:22 PM

SASTIND have released a new photo of earth and moon
when CE5T1 taken this photo, earth was 540000km away and moon was 920000km away

 

Posted by: A.Nemo Nov 29 2014, 08:55 AM

http://china.cnr.cn/gdgg/201411/t20141129_516922801.shtml

according to CNR, CE5T1 have been inserted earth-moon lagrangian point-2 on november 27,2014


 

Posted by: Paolo Dec 3 2014, 06:39 AM

this xinhua article discusses future plans for CE5T1:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-12/02/c_1113493000.htm

from Google translate:

QUOTE
in early January 2015 the service module will leave the Earth-Moon L2 point of flying to the moon; the middle of recent months, brake, forming lunar orbit; February, March each conduct a lunar orbit rendezvous and docking Remote Pilot test; April-to-Moon imaging, shooting preset sampling landing zone topography.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 3 2014, 02:53 PM

" lunar exploration phase III reentry return flight test (referred to as "Dumbo" )"

What? Not an homage to the flying elephant, presumably... I wonder what it means.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo Dec 3 2014, 03:04 PM

If I understand correctly, the probe has been nicknamed Xiaofei (小飞) in Chinese, meaning "little fly", or maybe "little flyer". and that's also the Chinese name of Disney's Dumbo

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 3 2014, 03:57 PM

Ah... that's the connection. Very interesting!

Phil

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Jan 6 2015, 09:21 AM

Cháng'é-5 T1 (or what's remaining from it)
has left Earth-Lunar L2 and returns to moon orbit.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/900026.shtml

Thorsten

Posted by: Cosmic Penguin Jan 6 2015, 02:35 PM

In summary:

CE-5-T1 left EM-L2 at around 15:00 UTC on Jan. 4 and is scheduled to reach lunar orbit by mid-January. As of midnight UTC on Jan. 5 the spacecraft is 445000 km from Earth and 57000 km from the Moon.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-12/02/c_1113493000.htm it will do at least 2 things in lunar orbit. In February and March it will perform 2 "virtual target" rendezvous tests for the future CE-5 mission (not unlike how the Shuttle did "dummy rendezvous" tests in the 1980s). In April the small monitoring camera will be used to obtain higher resolution photos of CE-5's landing zone.

Posted by: Cosmic Penguin Jan 11 2015, 05:29 AM

And CE-5-T1 has entered lunar orbit yesterday at around 19:00 UTC - initial orbit is 200 x 5300 km with period of 8 hours. It will make 2 more burns over the next 2 days to lower its orbit to a 200 km circular one with period of 127 minutes.

Source: http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2015/01-11/6956390.shtml

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jan 14 2015, 01:42 PM

Anatoly Zak has an article here with images of Earth and the Moon taken from L2:

http://sen.com/news/china-puts-spacecraft-into-moon-orbit

Phil


Posted by: Explorer1 Jan 22 2015, 04:34 AM

A lower orbit now: http://spaceflightnow.com/2015/01/21/chinese-pathfinder-probe-arrives-in-lunar-orbit/
Images of the potential sample return landing sight coming in April, apparently (but nothing yet on where).


Posted by: Phil Stooke Jan 22 2015, 01:39 PM

Suggestions have been circulated that the region will be Oceanus Procellarum. I have suggested that the most likely area would be the area of the youngest known mare basalts (determined from crater counting), south of Aristarchus. This is (one of the top scientific targets on many lists as it shows how long mare volcanism continued. A secondary goal would be Aristarchus ejecta, and a tertiary goal would be ejecta thrown off the nearby Aristarchus Plateau.

Phil


Posted by: kenny Feb 8 2015, 10:32 PM

Leonard David has posted this visualisation of the Chinese sample return mission taking off from the moon.
It fits very well with the design drawing shown in Post #9 in this thread. It also lays to rest the older design portrayed in Post #8.

http://www.leonarddavid.com/china-lunar-orbiter-assess-return-sample-tactics/


Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 17 2015, 01:03 AM

http://www.cast.cn/CastCn/Show.asp?ArticleID=48907

News that the Chang'E 5 T-1 test vehicle, still orbiting the moon, began imaging potential landing sits in May. No images released yet.

Phil

Google translation:
----------------------------
May 28 15:10 pm camera power is first applied a test shot, successfully shot two minutes of the Earth video, get a clear image of the earth. After the implementation of the third lunar imaging, to obtain images of more than 3,000 frames, good image quality.
The imaging camera to obtain a 2.5m resolution images of the lunar surface, indicating that the camera is operating normally in orbit long for the subsequent expansion of tasks carried out to provide a strong guarantee.
[China Academy of Space Technology copyright owners, please indicate the source]

Posted by: Explorer1 Jul 17 2015, 01:50 AM

Was the full mosaic in this article released already? I seem to recall only seeing the single frame with Earth and the lunar far side visible.
http://gbtimes.com/china/china-unveils-plans-far-side-moon-landing-and-hints-future-lunar-base

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 17 2015, 06:50 AM

Yes, that has been out for a while.

Phil

Posted by: Yeh Sep 2 2015, 09:46 PM

CE5T1 completes imaging CE5's landing zone: http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2015-09-02/203732269747.shtml (Chinese)

The resolution is said to be 1m/pix. CE5T1 also verify the techniques needed to control the ascending module and service module.

Posted by: Nordren Sep 2 2015, 09:55 PM

QUOTE (Yeh @ Sep 3 2015, 12:46 AM) *
CE5T1 completes imaging CE5's landing zone: http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2015-09-02/203732269747.shtml (Chinese)

The resolution is said to be 1m/pix. CE5T1 also verify the techniques needed to control the ascending module and service module.


Pics attached


 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Sep 2 2015, 11:06 PM

One way to interpret the Chinese text is that this imaging from 30 Aug. to 2 Sept completed the imaging of the fifth potential landing site. I don't know where any of them are yet - if anyone knows please let me know. But nice to know there are five candidates.

EDIT - the more I think about it, the more I suspect that the 'fifth' referred to is the fifth spacecraft, Chang'E 5. Google Translate is a blunt instrument for probing difficult questions. There might only be one site after all. I hope we will learn more soon.

EDIT AGAIN - a bit of detective work. The terminator was crossing the Mare Crisium area over the few days the images were taken. I had been expecting a landing in Oceanus Procellarum, but the sun would have been overhead there, and these images have shadows suggesting a lower sun elevation. Possibly a site in the eastern maria, but west of Crisium. Not much to go on yet.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo Sep 3 2015, 07:01 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Sep 3 2015, 01:06 AM) *
One way to interpret the Chinese text is that this imaging from 30 Aug. to 2 Sept completed the imaging of the fifth potential landing site.


there is also a release in English here: http://www.icrosschina.com/news/2015/0902/17908.shtml
it is clearly stated that the orbiter imaged the landing site of CE-5

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 3 2015, 03:13 PM

Is there anything that indicates whether Chang'e 5 T1 is being used to image the potential farside landing site of Chang'e 4?

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 3 2015, 04:29 PM

Came across http://www.cast.cn/CastCn/Show.asp?ArticleID=48986, but I can't make heads or tails of the Google translation.

Posted by: Yeh Sep 3 2015, 05:14 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Sep 2 2015, 06:06 PM) *
One way to interpret the Chinese text is that this imaging from 30 Aug. to 2 Sept completed the imaging of the fifth potential landing site. I don't know where any of them are yet - if anyone knows please let me know. But nice to know there are five candidates.

EDIT - the more I think about it, the more I suspect that the 'fifth' referred to is the fifth spacecraft, Chang'E 5. Google Translate is a blunt instrument for probing difficult questions. There might only be one site after all. I hope we will learn more soon.

EDIT AGAIN - a bit of detective work. The terminator was crossing the Mare Crisium area over the few days the images were taken. I had been expecting a landing in Oceanus Procellarum, but the sun would have been overhead there, and these images have shadows suggesting a lower sun elevation. Possibly a site in the eastern maria, but west of Crisium. Not much to go on yet.

Phil


Phil -- I believe the "fifth" indeed refers to the fifth probe in the Chang'E series. And it is from a verified source that CE5 will land in Oceanus Procellarum: http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-09/04/c_1112367913.htm (Chinese).

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Sep 3 2015, 11:29 AM) *
Came across http://www.cast.cn/CastCn/Show.asp?ArticleID=48986, but I can't make heads or tails of the Google translation.


It is about a documentary film or something -- they take the film in 3D. Nothing to do with CE5 or CE5T1 the probes.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 12 2015, 05:17 PM

https://agu.confex.com/agu/fm15/meetingapp.cgi/Paper/68812

AGU abstract - it says the landing site is in the northeastern part of Oceanus Procellarum.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 13 2015, 03:49 PM

Tweet from IAC:

Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes · Oct 12
China space admin chief Xu: Lunar sample return mission in 2017, lander on far side in 2018, lander/rover combination in 2020.#IAC2015

Phil

(de Selding is with spacenews.com)

Posted by: tolis May 26 2016, 01:51 PM

The web site of http://www.must.edu.mo/ISLPS2016/ links to a nice collection of abstracts ( see link at bottom left) including several that specifically focus on the Chang'e series of missions.
I note in particular the one by one by Zhao et al (p78) where it is stated that "Mons Rümker is .. a priority landing site for Chang’E-5."
I would take the cautious view that this site has been shortlisted and is presently in the top x, rather than being first on the list.

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 26 2016, 08:14 PM

This is the same information presented at LPSC. Another bit of news is here:

http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Deepspace/CE-5/CE5-launch.html

I used Google to translate it - it mentions landing near Sinus Iridum, but is not clear what 'near' means. Elsewhere we have been told 1000 km from Sinus Iridum.

That link includes some images with chinese text - any advice on their content would be appreciated.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo May 27 2016, 01:10 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 26 2016, 09:14 PM) *
That link includes some images with chinese text - any advice on their content would be appreciated.


that's two pages from this paper: http://jdse.bit.edu.cn/sktcxbcn/ch/reader/view_abstract.aspx?file_no=20150201&flag=1

http://jdse.bit.edu.cn/sktcxbcn/ch/reader/create_pdf.aspx?file_no=20150201&flag=1&journal_id=sktcxbcn&year_id=2015

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jan 1 2017, 10:21 PM

https://www.chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Deepspace/CE-5/CE-5.html

Some new images of the CE5 return capsule being prepared. I am still waiting for news on the landing site location... maybe that will come at LPSC in March.

Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 2 2017, 12:44 AM

Update on Chang'E 5 landing site selection. Not at LPSC, but at the European Geoscience meeting in April:

http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EGU2017/EGU2017-2026.pdf


Summarizing, the pre-selected landing region for CE-5 extends from 41 degrees to 45 degrees N and 49 degrees to 69 W, in northern Oceanus Procellarum west of Montes Jura and north of Mons Rümker. After an analysis of the topography and geologic units, seven sites were shortlisted, in the vicinity of 43 N, 55 W. This is in an area of younger basalts, probably younger than anything sampled before. A significant bit of science.

Here's a map of the area:



Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 2 2017, 12:59 AM

And a closer view of the target area - it's the smooth patch in the middle of this scene.

Phil


Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Mar 2 2017, 02:36 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Mar 1 2017, 06:44 PM) *
This is in an area of younger basalts, probably younger than anything sampled before.


I was hoping for that.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 2 2017, 06:50 PM

An updated map of the landing area.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 6 2017, 04:25 AM

And finally, to show that the precursor mission Chang'E 5 T1 actually did image the landing area, here is the location of one of its images:



(west of the preferred landing area, NW of Mons Rumker, at 43 N, 61 W or 299 E)

Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 15 2017, 02:20 PM

I have located the second image now, on the western edge of the first one at 42.763 N, 61.120 W. I will post a graphic when I have time.

Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 15 2017, 03:46 PM

CE5-T1 second image located.

Phil





 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 22 2017, 05:13 AM

I have learned some new things about the CE5 landing site. The EGU abstract I linked to higher up on this page defined the large landing area and described a preferred area where seven sites had been 'shortlisted'. Shortlisted was my word, they only referred to them as possible sites in the abstract. The lead author of that abstract has now advised me that the seven sites are just suggestions at this stage, and they are spread over a larger area than my map suggests, but all in the eastern half of the main landing area (i.e all in the younger basalt unit). These sites will be or have been transmitted to the mission management and a final selection will be announced nearer the launch date. I did not see the presentation at EGU and nobody who did seems to have filled in any more details in tweets etc.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 23 2017, 12:52 AM

More on those sites later. Meanwhile, here's something I am putting together for a blog post. Clementine color ratio superimposed on the map I made earlier. The gray strip is missing Clementine data. A few small data gaps elsewhere have been cosmetically patched (since this product is not for scientific analysis). The landing site will be in the blue unit.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 2 2017, 04:45 PM

Sad news. A second launch of the large new rocket which is needed for Chang'E 5 has just failed. It seems inevitable that another test - or even two - will be needed before CE5 can be launched, pushing it back well into next year.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo Jul 2 2017, 06:37 PM

let's look at the bright side: maybe CE-4 will finally fly before CE-5

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