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Neptune Orbiter, Another proposed mission
Rob Pinnegar
post Nov 10 2005, 03:51 PM
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This seems like a good place to start off the Uranus and Neptune forum: with the next ice-giants mission.

I will admit to not knowing a whole lot about the Neptune Orbiter With Probes (NOWP), other than the fact that it's in the planning stages, and a few other details I've gathered from Wikipedia and various other Internet sources. Anyone care to get this one going with a bit more information?
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RNeuhaus
post Nov 10 2005, 07:38 PM
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The trip to planets beyond than Saturn, I think the project would be most benefical to launch a big rocket along with three or four orbiters in which they are going to be dropped on each planet (Uranus, Triton, Neptune, or others) on its fast way toward a KBO... it might need a rocket which is capable to send around 10 TM to the space.

The trip to these planet is of very long time so it is very desirable that a rocket would be capable to send multiples probes, orbiters or landers in one shot.

Rodolfo
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tasp
post Nov 10 2005, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Nov 10 2005, 01:38 PM)
The trip to planets beyond than Saturn, I think the project would be most benefical to launch a big rocket along with three or four orbiters in which they are going to be dropped on each planet (Uranus, Triton, Neptune, or others) on its fast way toward a KBO... it might need a rocket which is capable to send around 10 TM to the space.

The trip to these planet is of very long time so it is very desirable that a rocket would be capable to send multiples probes, orbiters or landers in one shot.

Rodolfo
*



Prometheus would make a great 'carrier' type vehicle. It could send a heavy orbiter, probe, lander, and retro stage on it's way to Neptune, then return to earth for a refuel, and another payload to 'fling to the nether reaches'.
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tasp
post Nov 11 2005, 12:59 AM
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To revise and extend my remarks,

Would a reusable 'upper stage' (like a Prometheus, or at least an uprated ion drive) be considered a little more palatable, perhaps to the funding committees in congress? If an orbiter, lander, and atmospheric probe were too much mass, in view of the reusablity, the mssion could be flown on multiple flights.

Combining a reusable upper stage 'tug' with the VEEGA type flybys would give us even more payload, and would have the advantage of an easier return to earth of the reusable stage. Add in aerobraking at earth (yoiks! the fur will fly in the media, aerobraking a nuclear stage in earth's atmosphere!!!!) and the payload this system could send to Jupiter and beyond, repeatedly, would keep JPL hopping for decades.

I guess I'm coming around to seeing the objections to this.

Sigh.
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tasp
post Nov 11 2005, 01:09 AM
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Meanwhile, back at Neptune,

Has anyone considered the advantages and disadvantages of either a prograde or retrograde orbit for a Neptune orbiter?

I assume Triton will be employed similarly to Titan for orbit shaping, does it matter which way Triton goes 'round Neptune for this?

High flyby speeds for the prograde option at Triton can cause dificulty in photography, but then you reduce that problem at every other target. I'm not sure if ring plane crossings are more dangerous either way, hit something at either speed regime and the craft is toast anyhow.

Probe deploy and relay tasks seem easier if the orbiter is in a retrograde path. Perhaps Triton probe release could occcur far enough out, that orbiter and Triton (assuming we send a Huygens or better follow on) probe could each take the optimum path.
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Rob Pinnegar
post Nov 11 2005, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 10 2005, 07:09 PM)
Has anyone considered the advantages and disadvantages of either a prograde or retrograde orbit for a Neptune orbiter?

I assume Triton will be employed similarly to Titan for orbit shaping, does it matter which way Triton goes 'round Neptune for this?

Hmm. That's an interesting point.

From what I remember, Triton is (probably just barely) massive enough to get an orbiter around Neptune via gravitational capture. (Titania and Oberon aren't big enough to do this at Uranus which is why aerobraking would be required for a Uranus orbiter.) Probably the probe _would_ have to enter a retrograde orbit around Neptune, unless aerobraking were used.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, though. The situation at Neptune is different from Cassini's at Saturn. At Saturn, Titan is the main attraction, but there are several other bodies in the system (Enceladus, Iapetus, Hyperion etc.) that are also very interesting and worthy of plenty of study in their own right.

The Neptune orbiter's "Titan" is obviously Triton, but, at Neptune, there is no Iapetus, no Enceladus, and no Hyperion. Apart from some inner and outer gravel there is only Proteus which, apart from having a funny shape, seems more like a Mimas-in-waiting than a Miranda (though we could always be surprised). I wonder if there will be any chance of arranging a Nereid encounter or two? Might as well try if we're going all the way out there.

Triton isn't just the main event -- it's pretty much the only event. There is no "second stage" (a la Ozzfest) at Neptune. So if a retrograde orbit is preferable for studies of Triton, then we might as well make it a retrograde orbit -- even if aerobraking is used instead of capture.
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tedstryk
post Nov 11 2005, 02:28 AM
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QUOTE (Rob Pinnegar @ Nov 11 2005, 01:36 AM)
Triton isn't just the main event -- it's pretty much the only event. There is no "second stage" (a la Ozzfest) at Neptune. So if a retrograde orbit is preferable for studies of Triton, then we might as well make it a retrograde orbit -- even if aerobraking is used instead of capture.
*


I don't know if I would go that far. For one thing, a flyby during approach of Neried (a la Cassini at Phoebe) would be nice. And Proteus and the others may prove to be fragments from the former Neptunian system before Triton's capture, which would be quite interesting.


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Rob Pinnegar
post Nov 11 2005, 06:22 AM
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QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 10 2005, 08:28 PM)
I don't know if I would go that far.  For one thing, a flyby during approach of Neried (a la Cassini at Phoebe) would be nice.  And Proteus and the others may prove to be fragments from the former Neptunian system before Triton's capture, which would be quite interesting.

That's a good point about Proteus and the small inner moons -- I guess that their semi-major axes (with corrections for long term tidal effects since Triton's capture) should give a good idea of the lower limit for Triton's periastron right after its capture.

And, yeah, it's a good bet that Nereid will throw us some curveballs -- there will probably be _something_ there that we don't expect.

Triton'll still put 'em all to shame, though. tongue.gif
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Posts in this topic
- Rob Pinnegar   Neptune Orbiter   Nov 10 2005, 03:51 PM
- - elakdawalla   I don't know much myself about what's poss...   Nov 10 2005, 04:43 PM
|- - tedstryk   I would really like to see a Neptune orbiter with ...   Nov 10 2005, 05:26 PM
|- - Rob Pinnegar   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 10 2005, 11:26 AM)Maybe...   Nov 10 2005, 05:59 PM
|- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 10 2005, 10:26 AM)I wou...   Nov 10 2005, 06:20 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Nov 10 2005, 11:20 AM)Ho...   Nov 10 2005, 07:09 PM
||- - tedstryk   If an orbiter is a long way off, I think a Triton ...   Nov 10 2005, 07:13 PM
||- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 10 2005, 02:13 PM)If an...   Nov 10 2005, 07:53 PM
||- - Jeff7   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 10 2005, 02:13 PM)If an...   Nov 11 2005, 05:20 PM
|- - hendric   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Nov 10 2005, 12:20 PM)Ho...   Nov 16 2005, 08:22 AM
|- - Rob Pinnegar   QUOTE (hendric @ Nov 16 2005, 02:22 AM)Accord...   Nov 16 2005, 02:02 PM
|- - tedstryk   It is no doubt battered, but so is Mimas. A possi...   Nov 16 2005, 02:28 PM
|- - Rob Pinnegar   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 16 2005, 08:28 AM)A pos...   Nov 16 2005, 05:09 PM
- - RNeuhaus   The trip to planets beyond than Saturn, I think th...   Nov 10 2005, 07:38 PM
|- - tasp   QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Nov 10 2005, 01:38 PM)The t...   Nov 10 2005, 09:49 PM
|- - RNeuhaus   QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 10 2005, 04:49 PM)Prometheu...   Nov 10 2005, 10:00 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 10 2005, 02:49 PM)Prometheu...   Nov 10 2005, 10:06 PM
|- - tasp   To revise and extend my remarks, Would a reusable...   Nov 11 2005, 12:59 AM
|- - tasp   Meanwhile, back at Neptune, Has anyone considered...   Nov 11 2005, 01:09 AM
|- - Rob Pinnegar   QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 10 2005, 07:09 PM)Has anyon...   Nov 11 2005, 01:36 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Rob Pinnegar @ Nov 11 2005, 01:36 AM)T...   Nov 11 2005, 02:28 AM
|- - Rob Pinnegar   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 10 2005, 08:28 PM)I don...   Nov 11 2005, 06:22 AM
- - Decepticon   There where some ideas for Neptune orbiter in Astr...   Nov 11 2005, 12:42 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   There has actually been quite a lot of work done b...   Nov 11 2005, 04:01 AM
- - tasp   I'll digress to Uranus orbiting briefly. Assu...   Nov 11 2005, 04:11 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 10 2005, 09:11 PM)I'll ...   Nov 11 2005, 02:23 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (JRehling @ Nov 11 2005, 02:23 PM)Unfor...   Nov 11 2005, 03:01 PM
||- - Rob Pinnegar   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 11 2005, 09:01 AM)That ...   Nov 11 2005, 05:11 PM
|- - tasp   QUOTE (JRehling @ Nov 11 2005, 08:23 AM)If th...   Nov 11 2005, 03:12 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 11 2005, 08:12 AM)Can ...   Nov 11 2005, 04:45 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   I may have something to say on THAT subject in my ...   Nov 11 2005, 04:53 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   That's another reason why, given the likely de...   Nov 11 2005, 10:18 PM
- - tasp   Alex Blackwell has a post in the Uranus Orbiter th...   Nov 12 2005, 02:26 PM
|- - tedstryk   Here is an approach sequence of Proteus. All colo...   Nov 15 2005, 11:59 PM
|- - Rob Pinnegar   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 15 2005, 05:59 PM)It is...   Nov 16 2005, 06:25 AM
- - tasp   And even Miranda is somewhat oblongish. Would I b...   Nov 16 2005, 06:31 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 16 2005, 06:31 PM)And even ...   Nov 17 2005, 03:11 AM
- - tasp   I suspect the 'lumpiness' of Iapetus is a ...   Nov 17 2005, 04:46 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 17 2005, 05:46 AM)I suspect...   Nov 17 2005, 08:01 PM
- - tasp   With a greater understanding or how orbital tours ...   Nov 26 2005, 02:55 PM
- - Decepticon   A simple Google search reveled this!? What P...   Nov 26 2005, 03:41 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   That's the nuclear-electric version of Neptune...   Nov 27 2005, 02:43 AM
- - Decepticon   I hate anything that Unfurls. When Galileo...   Nov 27 2005, 12:31 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Just keep in mind that Galileo's antenna was e...   Nov 27 2005, 01:32 PM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Nov 27 2005, 06:32 AM)Ju...   Nov 28 2005, 03:38 AM
|- - mchan   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Nov 27 2005, 05:32 AM)Ju...   Nov 29 2005, 07:51 AM
- - edstrick   In a conversation some 10? years ago, maybe at the...   Nov 28 2005, 06:06 AM
- - edstrick   Deployments have ALWAYS been one of the big missio...   Nov 29 2005, 08:44 AM
- - tasp   Just in case NASA/JPL finds themselves looking for...   Dec 5 2005, 05:23 AM
- - dvandorn   Does Triton *really* have enough of an atmosphere ...   Dec 5 2005, 07:35 AM
|- - Toma B   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Dec 5 2005, 10:35 AM)Does T...   Dec 5 2005, 08:34 AM
|- - chris   QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 5 2005, 08:34 AM)Solution...   Dec 5 2005, 10:49 AM
||- - Toma B   QUOTE (chris @ Dec 5 2005, 01:49 PM)Which cou...   Dec 5 2005, 11:42 AM
||- - chris   QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 5 2005, 11:42 AM)What did...   Dec 5 2005, 12:52 PM
||- - Toma B   QUOTE (chris @ Dec 5 2005, 03:52 PM)If you la...   Dec 5 2005, 01:27 PM
||- - paxdan   QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 5 2005, 01:27 PM)Question...   Dec 5 2005, 01:47 PM
|||- - ljk4-1   Drop a probe right into one of the Triton geysers....   Dec 5 2005, 02:57 PM
||- - chris   QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 5 2005, 01:27 PM)Question...   Dec 5 2005, 03:07 PM
||- - Toma B   QUOTE (chris @ Dec 5 2005, 06:07 PM)I wasn...   Dec 6 2005, 08:48 AM
||- - chris   QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 6 2005, 08:48 AM)All righ...   Dec 6 2005, 10:41 AM
|- - helvick   QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 5 2005, 09:34 AM)Mars atm...   Dec 5 2005, 12:02 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 5 2005, 12:34 AM)Mars atm...   Dec 5 2005, 04:23 PM
- - edstrick   Note that the surface of Triton may be very rough ...   Dec 5 2005, 11:07 AM
- - tasp   Check out the last half of the Uranus orbiter thre...   Dec 5 2005, 03:05 PM
- - ermar   As a long-time lurker, sorry for spamming links, b...   Dec 10 2005, 02:23 AM
|- - Toma B   QUOTE (ermar @ Dec 10 2005, 05:23 AM)As a lon...   Dec 10 2005, 06:56 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   They definitely won't fly the nuclear-propelle...   Dec 10 2005, 06:42 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Sure: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/opag/jun_05_meetin.....   Dec 10 2005, 08:46 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 10 2005, 08:46 AM)Th...   Dec 10 2005, 01:29 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   I apologize for reviving a dead thread; however, F...   Jul 17 2006, 07:51 PM
|- - Rob Pinnegar   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jul 17 2006, 01:51...   Jul 18 2006, 03:36 PM
|- - JRehling   I would think that at some point the weight of the...   Jul 18 2006, 03:38 PM
|- - Chmee   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jul 18 2006, 11:38 AM) ...   Jul 18 2006, 03:47 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (Chmee @ Jul 18 2006, 05:47 AM) By ...   Jul 18 2006, 04:42 PM
- - ljk4-1   I wonder if a very large solar sail could be desig...   Jul 18 2006, 05:34 PM
- - Analyst   Before the "nuclear problem" comes the m...   Jul 20 2006, 10:54 AM
|- - antoniseb   QUOTE (Analyst @ Jul 20 2006, 04:54 AM) B...   Jul 21 2006, 11:52 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (antoniseb @ Jul 21 2006, 11:52 PM)...   Jul 25 2006, 04:35 AM
|- - Greg Hullender   But surely at the distance of Neptune the force ap...   Jul 25 2006, 05:01 AM
|- - helvick   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jul 25 2006, 06:0...   Jul 25 2006, 05:34 AM
- - ljk4-1   Would a Neptune orbiter be able to utilize the pla...   Jul 25 2006, 02:58 PM
|- - TritonAntares   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jul 25 2006, 03:58 P...   Jul 25 2006, 11:17 PM
- - qraal   Hi All Solar concentrators are such a cool concep...   Jul 26 2006, 01:40 PM
- - mimile   There have been many good answers to the question ...   Feb 11 2007, 11:38 AM
- - Rob Pinnegar   Those are good points, but it may be worth keeping...   Feb 11 2007, 05:04 PM
- - nprev   Nereid: 27.6 deg with respect to Neptune's equ...   Feb 11 2007, 05:37 PM
|- - JRehling   It's odd that people brought the topic of Nere...   Feb 12 2007, 01:42 AM
- - nprev   Good point, JR. In fact, Nereid spins pretty fast:...   Feb 12 2007, 04:13 AM
- - tasp   OK, I am not smart enough to visualize this in my ...   Feb 12 2007, 06:24 AM
- - mchan   Possibly that the node crossings of the two orbits...   Feb 12 2007, 08:05 AM
- - tasp   Wikipedia has stats on Nereid and reports its...   Feb 12 2007, 03:14 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (tasp @ Feb 12 2007, 07:14 AM) Wiki...   Feb 12 2007, 04:12 PM
- - tasp   Thanx, appreciate the clarification very much. So...   Feb 13 2007, 03:43 AM
- - Rob Pinnegar   The orbits will certainly precess -- but at that d...   Feb 14 2007, 01:57 AM
|- - TritonAntares   Hi, any ideas for an illustration, report, paper, ...   Feb 17 2007, 09:16 PM
|- - TritonAntares   Hi again, here a link to a french website dealing ...   Feb 18 2007, 02:10 PM
|- - tedstryk   It also has some of the strangest seasons, due to ...   Feb 22 2007, 02:13 PM
- - mchan   There is a graph in "The New Solar System...   Feb 17 2007, 11:42 PM
- - Rob Pinnegar   Yeah, looking at some of the references cited abov...   Mar 1 2007, 02:30 PM
- - tasp   Just throwing out some ideas here: Modify a follo...   Mar 2 2007, 05:30 AM
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