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Wreckage Of Beagle 2 Found?
imran
post Dec 20 2005, 01:07 AM
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Wreckage of Beagle found scattered in Mars crater

Talk about being unlucky assuming this is confirmed.
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Guest_BruceMoomaw_*
post Dec 21 2005, 08:30 AM
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Given how close MER-A (I refuse to use that cornball name "Spirit") came to disaster because of the unexpectedly low density of Mars' upper atmosphere -- even after its hasty last-minute reprogramming to open its parachute earlier, it came within 3 seconds of opening the chute too late to avoid a crash -- I think this has an excellent chance of being the fatal flaw in Beagle: it just came down too damned fast due to the lower than predicted Martian air density, and kaplooey. We'll never know whether some additional flaw also existed that would have done it in anyway, given the flaws that the failure board found to be riddling its design -- but the air density problem by itself would have been enough, and is very likely to have happened.

I am only now coming to realize how hard it actually is to land on Mars because of its peculiar halfway nature. As Ed Strick (and Rob Manning) say, it's very hard to utilize either purely aerodynamic braking or purely rocket braking to land on it, and Mars' thin air density has a height profile such that it's difficult even to combine the two effectively enough to get the braking job done in time. We may actually have been very lucky up to now to pull off as many successful Mars landings as we have -- most of the previous failures (Mars 2, 3 and 7; Polar Lander) were due to unconnected technical problems, but Mars' atmosphere alone may seriously endanger landers, and may conceivably have done in both Mars 6 and Beagle as well as almost killing MER-A. And the bigger the lander, the more serious the problem rapidly becomes.
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The Messenger
post Dec 22 2005, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 21 2005, 01:30 AM)
I am only now coming to realize how hard it actually is to land on Mars because of its peculiar halfway nature.  As Ed Strick (and Rob Manning) say, it's very hard to utilize either purely aerodynamic braking or purely rocket braking to land on it, and Mars' thin air density has a height profile such that it's difficult even to combine the two effectively enough to get the braking job done in time.  We may actually have been very lucky up to now to pull off as many successful Mars landings as we have -- most of the previous failures (Mars 2, 3 and 7; Polar Lander) were due to unconnected technical problems, but Mars' atmosphere alone may seriously endanger landers, and may conceivably have done in both Mars 6 and Beagle as well as almost killing MER-A.  And the bigger the lander, the more serious the problem rapidly becomes.
*

Both of the Viking craft used more of their fuel than expected (8-15%), but still held excess in reserve. Every single Martian landing craft has enter at a higher attitude and come down harder than expected, deployed parachutes later than expected, and left unanswered questions about their parachute drag coefficients and descent profiles. Every one. With lower engineering margins, the Mars 2,3,6, Polar lander and Beagle did not have chance.

The MRO has the potential of providing a definitive answer to these curiousites, but you must be willing to look at the possibility that there are very weak, second order gravitational effects. Weak second order effects, based upon the total mass of a system cannot be ruled out from our earth-moon platform, because the local mass-fraction is dominated by the solar mass. But further from the Sun and orbiting at an altitude of only 150 km, the MRO will sense gravity anomalies that are a full and unexplicable order of magnitude greater than the 300km orbiters.
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mcaplinger
post Dec 23 2005, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (The Messenger @ Dec 22 2005, 01:01 PM)
...orbiting at an altitude of only 150 km, the MRO will sense gravity anomalies that are a full and unexplicable order of magnitude greater than the 300km orbiters.
*


A couple of points:

MRO's mapping orbit isn't at 150 km -- it's between about 250 km and 320 km. Early in mission planning a lower periapse was considered, but this wasn't chosen.

Both MGS and I believe Odyssey routinely went below 150 km during aerobraking.


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Disclaimer: This post is based on public information only. Any opinions are my own.
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Posts in this topic
- imran   Wreckage Of Beagle 2 Found?   Dec 20 2005, 01:07 AM
- - ermar   Unlucky? Seems pretty lucky for Pilinger if it ch...   Dec 20 2005, 01:40 AM
- - lyford   Dr. Pillinger, Dec, 2003 QUOTE Professor Colin Pil...   Dec 20 2005, 02:04 AM
- - jamescanvin   I didn't see one on the page linked by imram b...   Dec 20 2005, 03:00 AM
|- - odave   Yep, shades of the false ID of MPL's remains e...   Dec 20 2005, 03:31 AM
|- - dilo   QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Dec 20 2005, 03:00 AM)I ...   Dec 20 2005, 05:15 AM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (dilo @ Dec 20 2005, 05:15 AM)If identi...   Dec 20 2005, 08:33 AM
||- - jamescanvin   QUOTE (dilo @ Dec 20 2005, 04:15 PM)The BBC i...   Dec 20 2005, 10:38 AM
|- - volcanopele   QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Dec 19 2005, 08:00 PM)I ...   Dec 20 2005, 08:31 PM
- - deglr6328   Ohh yes! If I squint hard enough I can just ma...   Dec 20 2005, 07:04 AM
- - djellison   Just had a thought - if the impact into the side o...   Dec 20 2005, 09:38 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   Hmmmm... So there was no error or malfunction of ...   Dec 20 2005, 09:45 AM
|- - RNeuhaus   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Dec 20 2005, 04:45 A...   Dec 20 2005, 03:16 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Dec 20 2005, 03:16 PM)I agr...   Dec 20 2005, 05:33 PM
- - djellison   ORRrr.... Design them with the ability to navigat...   Dec 20 2005, 10:05 AM
- - djellison   I went and found the orig MSSS image, got the IMG,...   Dec 20 2005, 10:58 AM
|- - Bjorn Jonsson   QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 20 2005, 10:58 AM)I we...   Dec 20 2005, 02:35 PM
- - edstrick   It's a good candidate for the remains. Better...   Dec 20 2005, 11:03 AM
- - djellison   Data from http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/r16_r21/...   Dec 20 2005, 11:47 AM
|- - tedstryk   I am not buying it, although I will suspend judgme...   Dec 20 2005, 06:36 PM
- - Decepticon   I bet it landed OK but did not function due to tec...   Dec 20 2005, 01:29 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Nice image processing, Doug - or 'the other Ph...   Dec 20 2005, 01:38 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 20 2005, 05:38 AM)I ...   Dec 20 2005, 05:25 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 20 2005, 05:38 AM)I ...   Dec 21 2005, 09:58 PM
- - Sunspot   I dont think you've read the news report corre...   Dec 20 2005, 06:47 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Sunspot @ Dec 20 2005, 06:47 PM)I dont...   Dec 21 2005, 03:56 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Dec 20 2005, 10:56 PM)I am ...   Dec 21 2005, 04:59 AM
- - djellison   I agree - it's not much and certainly far from...   Dec 20 2005, 09:10 PM
- - RNeuhaus   I was not aware of Beagle 2 mission. After reading...   Dec 20 2005, 09:24 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   This was always regarded by engineers before the l...   Dec 20 2005, 09:58 PM
- - AstronomíaOnline.com   The Search For Beagle 2 http://www.beagle2.com T...   Dec 21 2005, 03:11 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Given how close MER-A (I refuse to use that cornba...   Dec 21 2005, 08:30 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 21 2005, 12:30 AM)I ...   Dec 21 2005, 04:40 PM
||- - JRehling   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Dec 21 2005, 08:40 AM)I b...   Dec 22 2005, 02:44 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 21 2005, 01:30 AM)I ...   Dec 22 2005, 09:01 PM
|- - ljk4-1   The news that Beagle 2 may have been spotted on th...   Dec 23 2005, 01:31 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Dec 22 2005, 01:01 PM)...   Dec 23 2005, 07:51 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Dec 23 2005, 12:51 PM)A c...   Dec 27 2005, 04:37 PM
- - Sunspot   If i'm remembering this correctly, and it was ...   Dec 21 2005, 10:29 AM
- - djellison   Unfortunately, only the data sets for EDL are out,...   Dec 21 2005, 10:54 AM
- - Nix   Is it me or is there a radial pattern of dark stre...   Dec 21 2005, 04:19 PM
|- - Sunspot   QUOTE (NIX @ Dec 21 2005, 04:19 PM)Is it me o...   Dec 21 2005, 06:14 PM
- - Nix   Also, every similar crater in the area doesn't...   Dec 21 2005, 04:34 PM
- - Nix   Thanks Sunspot. Nico   Dec 21 2005, 08:29 PM
|- - ugordan   If this crater indeed turns out to be Beagle's...   Dec 21 2005, 09:38 PM
- - Sunspot   It was originaly suspected that the crater visible...   Dec 21 2005, 10:35 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Sunspot @ Dec 21 2005, 02:35 PM)The fo...   Dec 21 2005, 10:44 PM
- - Sunspot   Take a look at slide 5 on the Beagle website: Al...   Dec 21 2005, 10:49 PM
- - RNeuhaus   I am still not convinced about the Beagle 2's ...   Dec 21 2005, 10:53 PM
- - djellison   MRO will be able to identify the airbags if they a...   Dec 21 2005, 10:56 PM
- - djellison   Helen just found this.... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/w...   Dec 22 2005, 11:43 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 22 2005, 04:43 AM)Hele...   Dec 23 2005, 04:24 AM
- - djellison   Dont forget the equiv. prop mass of the RAD and TI...   Dec 22 2005, 02:48 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Oh, gadfry, Messenger, are you still peddling that...   Dec 23 2005, 06:46 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 23 2005, 01:46 AM)An...   Dec 23 2005, 03:26 PM
|- - RNeuhaus   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Dec 23 2005, 10:26 AM)I ...   Dec 23 2005, 04:45 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   I should add that the Polar Lander failure report ...   Dec 23 2005, 06:49 AM
- - edstrick   Note that the Viking landers directly measured the...   Dec 23 2005, 09:15 AM
- - djellison   Messenger's gravity 'thing' has appear...   Dec 23 2005, 10:02 AM
- - PhilCo126   Well, I cannot make up anything from the images an...   Dec 23 2005, 10:56 AM
- - RNeuhaus   Thanks to The Messenger for the references which a...   Dec 27 2005, 04:44 PM
- - PhilCo126   Talking about spacecraft that kept working... I be...   Dec 27 2005, 04:47 PM
|- - tedstryk   It would have been interesting, had MGS been in an...   Feb 21 2006, 05:21 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Yep. The rover was also programmed, if it didn...   Dec 27 2005, 10:28 PM
- - lyford   Bruce, you just blew out my anthropomorphometer...   Dec 28 2005, 01:42 AM
- - Sunspot   Just a hypothetical thought here - but say for exa...   Dec 31 2005, 01:11 PM
- - RNeuhaus   It might be. However, up to now, we are not wearin...   Dec 31 2005, 09:49 PM
- - PhilCo126   Don't know if You all noticed the redesign of ...   Feb 21 2006, 04:51 PM
- - djellison   Sojourner was on 459.7 MHz, and MGS Relay is on 40...   Feb 21 2006, 08:47 PM


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