Looking For The Landers Options

[dvandorn]

I want to look into myself.

Well, for that, you'd need an X-ray machine, or an MRI...



Sorry, couldn't resist...

-the other Doug

[dvandorn]

Lunar orbiter 2 and 3 were capable of 1 meter resolution with the high resolution frames.  Orbiter 1 had it's image motion compensation system fail, and the high rez pics from low orbit were smeared. 

Orbiter 4 had 50 meter rez from periapsis in it's eccentric mapping orbit.  Orbiter 5 was in a higher periapse orbit than 1 through 3 for science site mapping

As far as resolution possible from Mars orbit...

Remember a bit of physics called the "diffraction limit"

Hubble-sized optics in low earth orbit have a diffraction limit of maybe 5-10 cm on vertical pointed images... Hubble sized.. that's the big recon sats.    You can see a licence plate but not read it.  (that's what I understand, I've never seen real performance numbers)

Mars Recon orbiter's gonna be working essentially at it's diffraction limit, I hope and expect.  If you want to do better, you're gonna have to buy a spare KH-11 or some such sat from the spooks.  It wouldn't be easy to get it to Mars even if you had it!

Yeah, LO 2 and 3 got 1m resolution from pericynthion, which was (IIRC) about 35 miles (or roughly 50 km). Obviously, such a low orbit is impossible around Mars... IIRC, the Apollo pancam had the potential to get about 50cm resolution from the descent orbit (15 km pericynthion), but its motion compensation system didn't work well at that low altitude, and so that theoretical resolution was never achieved. But I do recall quite clearly that the maximum resolution of the Apollo pancam was significantly softened (by alterations of the optics) from the level the camera was designed to provide -- and provided in those self-same KH's you mention.

I don't have the link handy, but there is an excellent image from one of the KH's taken of a Soviet battleship in dock that displays the quality of the system. You can count the containers on the deck and identify individuals on the ship, on other ships, and on the docks. From shadow lengths, you could even calculate every person's height. Resolution was on the average of 20cm per pixel or better (since you could make out human forms, including arms and legs). And this was taken through Earth's thick atmosphere from at least 200 km. To top it off, it was a somewhat oblique-angle shot, so it was looking through more atmosphere than a straight overhead image would have to contend with.

DOD was *really* unhappy when that image was leaked -- it indeed showed that their systems could resolve something the size of a license plate, though, as you said, you couldn't read it. For example, you could tell there were markings on most of the visible containers, but they were dark blurs, not readable.

So, while HiRise is absolutely nothing to sneeze at, and will return extraordinary images, you *could* get higher resolution. And while it would probably *not* have to be a Hubble-sized instrument, it would almost definitely be beyond our current capability of sending all the way to Mars... HiRise is remarkably capable for an instrument that we *can* send to Mars, IMHO.

-the other Doug

[chris]

I don't have the link handy, but there is an excellent image from one of the KH's taken of a Soviet battleship in dock that displays the quality of the system.  You can count the containers on the deck and identify individuals on the ship, on other ships, and on the docks.  From shadow lengths, you could even calculate every person's height.  Resolution was on the average of 20cm per pixel or better (since you could make out human forms, including arms and legs).  And this was taken through Earth's thick atmosphere from at least 200 km.  To top it off, it was a somewhat oblique-angle shot, so it was looking through more atmosphere than a straight overhead image would have to contend with.

Here you go:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/spiesfly/phot_03.html

Chris

[dvandorn]

I don't have the link handy, but there is an excellent image from one of the KH's taken of a Soviet battleship in dock that displays the quality of the system.  You can count the containers on the deck and identify individuals on the ship, on other ships, and on the docks.  From shadow lengths, you could even calculate every person's height.  Resolution was on the average of 20cm per pixel or better (since you could make out human forms, including arms and legs).  And this was taken through Earth's thick atmosphere from at least 200 km.  To top it off, it was a somewhat oblique-angle shot, so it was looking through more atmosphere than a straight overhead image would have to contend with.

Here you go:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/spiesfly/phot_03.html

Chris

Yep, that's the one -- though that's a very reduced version. On a larger version I saw, supposedly full resolution, you can zoom in and make out human figures on the ships and docks. One guy, you could make out the distinctive shape of a Soviet Navy officer's hat on his head.

Let's see, the one-and-a-half-foot resolution they mention is about 50cm, right? So, that's in the ballpark of what I was talking about.

One thing to remember, of course, is that this was a film-based system. DoD could, by the early 1970s, achieve that level of resolution on film that they de-orbited and processed back on the ground. Achieving similar resolution real-time, from electronic imaging sensors (vidicons and later CCDs) took DoD a LOT longer, and I'm sure that the current systems (which are what we really ought to compare to HiRise) are tremendously larger and heavier than the early film-based KH that took the above snapshot... Heck, considering they were using Titan IV's to orbit them, I'd have to say they would *have* to be bigger and heavier. Certainly bigger and heavier than we could even think about sending to Mars right now.

-the other Doug

[tty]

I don't have the link handy, but there is an excellent image from one of the KH's taken of a Soviet battleship in dock that displays the quality of the system.  You can count the containers on the deck and identify individuals on the ship, on other ships, and on the docks.  From shadow lengths, you could even calculate every person's height.  Resolution was on the average of 20cm per pixel or better (since you could make out human forms, including arms and legs).  And this was taken through Earth's thick atmosphere from at least 200 km.  To top it off, it was a somewhat oblique-angle shot, so it was looking through more atmosphere than a straight overhead image would have to contend with.

Here you go:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/spiesfly/phot_03.html

Chris

Yep, that's the one -- though that's a very reduced version. On a larger version I saw, supposedly full resolution, you can zoom in and make out human figures on the ships and docks. One guy, you could make out the distinctive shape of a Soviet Navy officer's hat on his head.

Let's see, the one-and-a-half-foot resolution they mention is about 50cm, right? So, that's in the ballpark of what I was talking about.

One thing to remember, of course, is that this was a film-based system. DoD could, by the early 1970s, achieve that level of resolution on film that they de-orbited and processed back on the ground. Achieving similar resolution real-time, from electronic imaging sensors (vidicons and later CCDs) took DoD a LOT longer, and I'm sure that the current systems (which are what we really ought to compare to HiRise) are tremendously larger and heavier than the early film-based KH that took the above snapshot... Heck, considering they were using Titan IV's to orbit them, I'd have to say they would *have* to be bigger and heavier. Certainly bigger and heavier than we could even think about sending to Mars right now.

-the other Doug

That photo was taken by a KH-11 "Kennan" satellite which was not a film-return system. Incidentally the subject was the first soviet aircraft carrier building, not a battleship.
I don't think any photograph or other details of a KH-11 have ever been released, but it is generally thought to be rather similar to the HST, but with a shorter instrument section.
There has been a number of other releases - intentional and accidental - of recce sat imagery but I doubt that at least the intentional ones are full definition. I'm speaking of recent imagery of course - the old Corona (KH 4) images have been declassified.

Tommy Tyrberg

[edstrick]

I do not clearly recall whether the man who intentionally leaked that image served time for it, but he should have. Not that the soviets didn't have a damn good idea what we could see anyway.

[jaredGalen]

"In a statement newly issued on the MSSS Mars Global Surveyor web site, the Mars Polar Lander (MPL) has been tentatively identified. Moreover, imagery taken suggests that the vehicle could be more-or-less intact, sitting in a south pole region of Mars, notes the MSSS web site. "

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/05050..._candidate.html

Edit: I see it's alread being discussed in the Past and Future forum. Sorry