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Plutoids: a new class of objects beyond Neptune, Astronomy, politics or damage control
Classification of Pluto
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dmuller
post Jun 12 2008, 09:44 AM
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Article on the BBC website: 'Non-planet' Pluto gets new class
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7449735.stm
QUOTE
Now an IAU committee, meeting in Oslo, has suggested that small, nearly spherical objects orbiting beyond Neptune should carry the "plutoid" tag.

It also goes on to say that not everybody is too excited about it:
QUOTE
"It's just some people in a smoke-filled room who dreamed it up," he told the Associated Press. "Plutoids or haemorrhoids, whatever they call it. This is irrelevant."



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nprev
post Jun 13 2008, 04:54 AM
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Oh, God....here we go again. sad.gif ...time to get out the Advil.

Let me just restate what seems to me at least to be the correct perspective. Natural objects exist along a continuum. Conversely, people tend to categorize things, and get upset when a given object doesn't seem to fit neatly into one category or another.

The ONLY top-level objects in the Universe that are apparently discrete, distinct, and identical to each other are hadrons & leptons; everything else is kinda fuzzy, somewhere in-between. (I do not expand that definition to include atoms because of isotopes; the exception that proves the rule is the chemical behavior of deuterium & tritium, which differs from that of basic hydrogen in many fundamental ways.)

Therefore, the term 'planet', undoubtedly like most of our terminology for probably all nouns, is subjective. Fomenting long, bitter debates over what does and what does not "deserve" this term doesn't serve any practical purpose at all, and frankly might become a seriocomic, rather embarrassing spectacle in the eyes of the general public...who well might be wondering why all these PhDs making the mythical big bucks are wasting time on the issue.

Pluto is a/an [insert opinion here]. Fine. Just insert an opinion, and then leave it alone.


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Stu
post Jun 13 2008, 06:36 AM
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QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 13 2008, 05:54 AM) *
Therefore, the term 'planet', undoubtedly like most of our terminology for probably all nouns, is subjective. Fomenting long, bitter debates over what does and what does not "deserve" this term doesn't serve any practical purpose at all, and frankly might become a seriocomic, rather embarrassing spectacle in the eyes of the general public...who well might be wondering why all these PhDs making the mythical big bucks are wasting time on the issue.


All true, but I think it's unwise to just dismiss this issue as a squabble or an irrelevence. As I said at the time, although it did make sense scientifically - from a "terminology tidying up" point of view - the fundamental problem with this particular case was that it was a change of identity for an object that was lodged in the public's consciousness as firmly and securely as a mountaineering spike hammered into the side of El Capitan. I have had soooo many discussions with people about this, and the overwhelming majority were of the opinion that Pluto had been a planet for over 70 years, why did "you people" (i.e. me, i.e. astronomer types) just decide to change it? And in all honesty I can't defend the change, I just can't. Personally I think it would have been excusable and understandable to the IAU to throw its hands up and, for once, look up from its computer screens and fat books of tables and figures and definitions, acknowledge sentimentality and tradition and just crown Pluto as an "Honourary planet", but declare that That Was That, and from now on new rules would apply. The whole "dwarf planet" thing was simply embarrassing, a real fudge, and now this "plutoid" term is going to further cloud already muddy waters.

This isn't just my ranting opinion here, it's based on experience out there, in the real world, where the people I talk to in community centres, school halls, museums, libraries and the like during my Outreach talks are now genuinely confused by this. And trust me, many of them now believe that, well, if small groups of astronomers can go around changing things like this, then astronomy IS a stuffy old science after all, for wild-haired scientists with patches on their elbows, which, when science is already being challenged to tackle global warming, scientists are trying to push back the growling tsunami of "Intelligent Design" and Creationism, speak up for manned and unmanned space exploration and convince people that no, cave men and dinosaurs did not fight it out, is disastrous, IMO.

Then there's the problem in schools. Word hasn't filtered through the system into the classrooms yet, not here anyway, and when I had to tell a roomful of 8 and 9 year olds on Monday morning that Pluto - represented by a cute little brown-paper covered ball, hanging down from a piece of string that spanned their classroom - wasn't a planet after all, they were confused, disappointed and angry all at once. Boy, did it take some explaining that a tiny number of people, in a hall, had decided that Pluto wasn't a planet after all, maybe 15 mins eaten out of my hour-long talk. But as it's official now I towed the official party line and passed on the new knowledge as a good Outreacher is obliged to do, and now all those kids and their teacher know that Pluto isn't a planet but a "dwarf planet" - I am NOT going back to tell them it's a "plutoid" too! - so yaay me... sad.gif

Change is necessary, essential, I'm not questioning that. And yes, with its weird orbit, small size and odd behaviour Pluto was, and still is, and I feel always will be, a big, ugly, fat black fly sitting smack in the middle of the pot of lovely white ointment that is the "official" view of our solar system, but seriously, what an absolute **** up this has all been.


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pumpkinpie
post Jun 13 2008, 06:23 PM
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QUOTE (Stu @ Jun 13 2008, 01:36 AM) *
And trust me, many of them now believe that, well, if small groups of astronomers can go around changing things like this, then astronomy IS a stuffy old science after all, for wild-haired scientists with patches on their elbows,

Then there's the problem in schools. Word hasn't filtered through the system into the classrooms yet, not here anyway

Hi Stu, and all,
I took over 10,000 Minnesota schoolkids on tours of the universe in my portable planetarium this year. I'd like to respond to the bolded items in your post.

Most of the time I let them decide what to explore in the solar system, and I'd say about 80% of the time someone wanted to go to Pluto. This was grades 2-9, all inclusive. And, when I asked the question, "what is Pluto?", most classes had at least one person who knew its current status. Most of the time it was a chorus of "dwarf planet!" So the new info is getting into the classrooms here. Kudos to Minnesota teachers! I got the impression that they didn't exactly know what that means, so I always made sure to give them a good explanation. Yes, it takes a while....but as you said above it's our job in outreach!

And I don't know exactly what the students come away "believing" when I tell them about the change in designation. (referring to the stuffy old astronomers.) I try to make the point that this is what is so exciting about astronomy. We are constantly discovering new things, and sometimes that has to change the way we see/categorize things. I sometimes use this analogy:

"Ceres was discovered about 200 years ago. At first it was thought to be a planet. Then astronomers learned that its size is very small compared to the Earth, and they started discovering more and more objects in its region. Eventually they realized it belonged to a different, new category, which they named asteriods." I tell them to keep that story in mind....

Once I get past Neptune, I say this:

"Pluto was discovered about 80 years ago. At first it was thought to be a planet. Then astronomers learned that its size is very small compared to the Earth, and by about 15 years ago they started discovering more and more objects in its region. It's like another asteroid belt out there! Eventually they realized it belonged to a different, new category, which they named Kuiper belt objects." Does that story sound familiar?

I like to think I'm doing a good job with the Pluto story. And I look forward to having to change it with new discoveries!
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Posts in this topic
- dmuller   Plutoids: a new class of objects beyond Neptune   Jun 12 2008, 09:44 AM
- - akuo   While classified as a plutoid, Pluto is still a dw...   Jun 12 2008, 09:51 AM
|- - David   Plutoid, wow. That must have taken a lot of thoug...   Jun 12 2008, 12:36 PM
- - hendric   Jovoids? *ba-dump dump ching*   Jun 12 2008, 01:49 PM
- - ngunn   Ganymoids?   Jun 12 2008, 02:11 PM
- - hendric   Galleoids? Does that make ring particles saturnoi...   Jun 12 2008, 02:18 PM
|- - Greg Hullender   QUOTE (hendric @ Jun 12 2008, 07:18 AM) G...   Jun 13 2008, 03:29 AM
|- - mchan   The ones there are classed as hemorrhoids.   Jun 13 2008, 04:22 AM
- - climber   If they rotate in 24h40 minutes, they'll be So...   Jun 12 2008, 03:14 PM
- - Decepticon   LOL   Jun 12 2008, 07:13 PM
- - laurele   They actually are considering calling Ceres a ...   Jun 12 2008, 09:55 PM
- - volcanopele   I propose Ioids, terrestrial bodies with silicate ...   Jun 12 2008, 10:44 PM
- - hendric   Duh, we're missing the most obvious one: Eart...   Jun 13 2008, 02:22 AM
- - Stephen   A space.com article on the issues gives a few quot...   Jun 13 2008, 04:26 AM
- - nprev   Oh, God....here we go again. ...time to get out ...   Jun 13 2008, 04:54 AM
|- - Stu   QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 13 2008, 05:54 AM) The...   Jun 13 2008, 06:36 AM
||- - pumpkinpie   QUOTE (Stu @ Jun 13 2008, 01:36 AM) And t...   Jun 13 2008, 06:23 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 13 2008, 02:54 PM) Oh,...   Jun 13 2008, 07:12 AM
|- - tedstryk   Would asteroids in the Hermian region (near the or...   Jun 13 2008, 12:55 PM
|- - ElkGroveDan   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Jun 13 2008, 04:55 AM) ...   Jun 13 2008, 05:48 PM
- - Stu   No "soapbox" Stephen, just concern, frus...   Jun 13 2008, 07:54 AM
- - dvandorn   I don't know, Stu -- there was a delightful Py...   Jun 13 2008, 08:16 AM
|- - Stu   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jun 13 2008, 09:16 AM) ...   Jun 13 2008, 08:28 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (Stu @ Jun 13 2008, 06:28 PM) To mo...   Jun 13 2008, 11:02 AM
- - dvandorn   Oh, and Advil is an American brand name for ibupro...   Jun 13 2008, 08:18 AM
- - nprev   Stu, I see your point. Did not mean to be dismissi...   Jun 13 2008, 11:20 AM
|- - jamescanvin   QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 13 2008, 12:20 PM) des...   Jun 13 2008, 12:34 PM
|- - TheChemist   QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 13 2008, 02:20 PM) I d...   Jun 13 2008, 01:04 PM
- - tasp   Instead of "Plutoid", how about using th...   Jun 13 2008, 03:29 PM
- - alan   Forum Guidelines QUOTE 1.9 Other banned subjects ...   Jun 13 2008, 04:26 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (alan @ Jun 13 2008, 12:26 PM) ...i...   Jun 13 2008, 04:31 PM
|- - Stu   QUOTE (alan @ Jun 13 2008, 05:26 PM) Lets...   Jun 13 2008, 10:10 PM
- - hendric   Stu, Here's an idea on how to explain it. F...   Jun 13 2008, 05:39 PM
- - laurele   "Is this a joke?" It depends on what th...   Jun 13 2008, 06:03 PM
- - ElkGroveDan   As Alan noted above, we need to get away from this...   Jun 13 2008, 07:06 PM
- - SpaceListener   I like tto Stephen proposal with the word thingy.B...   Jun 13 2008, 07:30 PM
- - Greg Hullender   Say, did I tell you guys I'm taking Linguistic...   Jun 13 2008, 10:59 PM
- - imipak   Everything's an object. And they expose publi...   Jun 13 2008, 11:25 PM
- - David   I have long since ceased to care whether Pluto is ...   Jun 14 2008, 05:10 AM
- - nprev   Hell with it; Tasp is right. We marklars have spen...   Jun 14 2008, 06:08 AM
- - Stu   Just to put things in perspective... Found a refe...   Jun 14 2008, 06:17 AM
- - dvandorn   Stuart! You *cannot* seriously tell me you...   Jun 14 2008, 06:25 AM
- - nprev   ...Stu, that's from a now-defunct US cartoon s...   Jun 14 2008, 06:28 AM
|- - Stu   QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 14 2008, 07:28 AM) Thi...   Jun 14 2008, 06:35 AM
- - Stu   Ah... "Animaniacs"... yes, heard of thos...   Jun 14 2008, 06:30 AM
- - J.J.   Can't add much other than to say that I totall...   Jun 14 2008, 01:45 PM
- - Betelgeuze   I like the term 'dwarf planet', what I don...   Jun 15 2008, 12:13 PM
- - Greg Hullender   Nearly all English words are a bit fuzzy -- even s...   Jun 15 2008, 02:02 PM
- - tanjent   I don't understand why this topic provokes so ...   Jun 16 2008, 05:18 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (tanjent @ Jun 16 2008, 10:18 AM) I...   Jun 18 2008, 06:53 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jun 19 2008, 04:53 AM) ...   Jun 19 2008, 08:23 AM
|- - Greg Hullender   QUOTE (Stephen @ Jun 19 2008, 01:23 AM) ....   Jun 19 2008, 02:44 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jun 19 2008, 07:4...   Jun 19 2008, 05:28 PM
|- - Greg Hullender   Sigh. People are getting too serious again; it...   Jun 19 2008, 10:32 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jun 19 2008, 10:3...   Jun 20 2008, 01:35 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Note that there was a small fuss when they renamed...   Jun 17 2008, 03:50 AM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jun 16 2008, 10:5...   Jun 17 2008, 04:24 AM
- - Stu   Not another comment on the basic debate, I'm d...   Jun 17 2008, 07:33 AM
- - alan   I noticed this in the IAU's press release QUOT...   Jun 19 2008, 05:13 AM
- - peter59   In my opinion, IAU should only officially sanction...   Jun 19 2008, 08:13 AM
- - laurele   "Since this is another "argument from li...   Jun 19 2008, 05:02 PM
- - dvandorn   Honestly, if you're hung up on making differen...   Jun 19 2008, 06:35 PM
- - tedstryk   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jun 19 2008, 06:35 PM) ...   Jun 20 2008, 01:40 AM


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