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Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ Chang'e program _ Chang'e 5 sample return mission

Posted by: yaohua2000 Nov 6 2012, 12:28 AM

Chang'e 5 atmospheric re-entry and parachute ejection system tested.

 

Posted by: Paolo Jan 20 2013, 10:15 AM

A paper (in Chinese) on the design of the Chang'e sample return drill. it includes a nice CAD view of the probe
http://zgkj.cast.cn/EN/abstract/abstract10631.shtmlhttp://zgkj.cast.cn/EN/abstract/abstract10631.shtml

Posted by: kenny Dec 16 2013, 08:30 PM

Today's bland news from Xinhua News Agency... but.... what is Chang'e 4 going to do?
A repeat of Chang'e 3 with a new Rover?

BEIJING, Dec. 16 (Xinhua) -- China plans to launch lunar probe Chang'e 5 in 2017, according to the State Administration of Science, Technology and Industry for
National Defense. The development of Chang'e 5 is proceeding smoothly, said the administration's spokesman Wu Zhijian at a press conference on Monday.

The just-concluded Chang'e 3 mission marked completion of the second phase of the country's lunar program, which includes orbiting, landing and returning to Earth.

The lunar program will enter the next stage of unmanned sampling and returning, which will include Chang'e 5 and 6 missions, according to Wu.


Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 16 2013, 08:44 PM

The feeling among China-watchers seems to be that Chang'E 4 will do what CE2 did for CE1 - if CE1 failed it's a simple back-up, but when CE1 succeeded, CE2 became an opportunity to test advanced technology. It flew a direct route to the Moon instead of several increasing orbits, it carried advanced cameras, it flew a more complex orbital mission including low altitude flyovers of the landing area for very high resolution imaging.

So for CE4 there are reports it will carry advanced auto-navigation software. And my impression now is that it may test sample collection and handling tools as well. All in preparation for CE5 and CE6. So still a rover mission, but more advanced.

Phil

Posted by: tolis Dec 16 2013, 09:22 PM

May they also try re-igniting the lander's main engine to send it on a ballistic
hop to a different site? I think Surveyor did that, albeit to only a few feet away to enable
stereo coverage of the surrounding area. They may not wish to do the same with Chang'e 3
as it marks, more so than the rover, the site of the first Chinese landing on the Moon.


Posted by: Airbag Dec 16 2013, 09:33 PM

No, I read that one of the first tasks for the lander was to vent the propulsion system.

Airbag

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Dec 16 2013, 09:34 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 16 2013, 09:44 PM) *
The feeling among China-watchers seems to be that Chang'E 4 will do what CE2 did for CE1 - if CE1 failed it's a simple back-up, but when CE1 succeeded, CE2 became an opportunity to test advanced technology. It flew a direct route to the Moon instead of several increasing orbits, it carried advanced cameras, it flew a more complex orbital mission including low altitude flyovers of the landing area for very high resolution imaging.

So for CE4 there are reports it will carry advanced auto-navigation software. And my impression now is that it may test sample collection and handling tools as well. All in preparation for CE5 and CE6. So still a rover mission, but more advanced.

Phil


It seem's your right:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2013-12/16/c_132971844.htm
English.news.cn 2013-12-16 15:04:11

"As the backup probe of Chang'e-3, Chang'e-4 will be adapted to verify technologies for Chang'e-5, according to Wu."

Thorsten

Posted by: kenny Dec 20 2013, 10:28 PM

From the same article, I thought this was significant:

The lunar program will enter the next stage of unmanned sampling and returning, which will include Chang'e-5 and 6 missions, according to Wu.
"The program's third phase will be more difficult because many breakthroughs must be made in key technologies such as moon surface takeoff,
sampling encapsulation, rendezvous and docking in lunar orbit, and high-speed Earth reentry, which are all new to China," Wu said.

Rendezvous and docking in lunar orbit is curious, as this diagram previously released seems to show a return capsule lifting directly off the moon' surface,
like the Soviet Luna 16 etc. You wouldn't carry the weight of an earth-return capsule down to the lunar surface if you planned to transfer the samples
in lunar orbit.



Posted by: pospa Dec 21 2013, 12:16 AM

QUOTE (kenny @ Dec 20 2013, 11:28 PM) *
Rendezvous and docking in lunar orbit is curious, as this diagram previously released seems to show a return capsule lifting directly off the moon' surface, ...

That diagram in your post is quite old.
This one bellow should more reflect the latest return mission design:


Posted by: kenny Dec 21 2013, 11:21 AM

Dekuji, thanks.... that makes more sense when we see the size of the return module in this recent test.



Posted by: SpaceListener Dec 21 2013, 03:06 PM

I suspect that the planned trip of spaceship Chang'e-5 to the Moon is due to the required time to upgrade the capacity of rocket to send a much heavier Chang'e-5.

Posted by: vjkane Dec 21 2013, 10:35 PM

QUOTE (pospa @ Dec 20 2013, 04:16 PM) *
That diagram in your post is quite old.
This one bellow should more reflect the latest return mission design:

Do you know the source of the diagram? I'd like to use it for my blog.

Posted by: 0101Morpheus Dec 22 2013, 01:52 AM

I feel that the design of the sample return can be used as proof in concept for future planetary missions such as a Mars sample return like we have been wanting for decades.

Posted by: djellison Dec 22 2013, 02:56 AM

Whilst some technology could be carried across - the requirement for Mars ascent and lunar ascent are very different. 2x the gravity, plus an atmosphere to deal with. The two vehicles would be very different.


Posted by: pospa Dec 22 2013, 08:40 AM

QUOTE (vjkane @ Dec 21 2013, 11:35 PM) *
Do you know the source of the diagram? I'd like to use it for my blog.

I took it from here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33431.msg1134230#msg1134230
And Chinese original can be found here: http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/read.php?tid=981809

Admin Note: Be aware that on the Chinese website a pop-up appears.

Posted by: Gofar Dec 25 2013, 09:32 AM

Add here is some lastest news for China's Chang'e Project 4&5 and manned Lunar exploration,
2013-12-25
People.com.cn Guangzhou on 25 December, (Sun Lu) yesterday morning, "the father", China academician Ye Peijian guest lectures "Pearl River Science Forum", the Chinese lunar and deep space exploration, said the return mode Chang'e five innovation, and before the rumors of the "abolition of China's manned moon" the false news responded.

作为中国空间飞行器及信息处理专家的叶培建,曾任嫦娥一号卫星系统总指挥兼总设计师。现任航天科技集团公司科技委顾问,航天科技集团公司嫦娥三号探测器系统首席科学家、嫦娥五号总设计师、总指挥顾问,空间科学与深空探测首席专家。

As China space vehicle and information processing expert Ye Peijian, a former Chang'e-1 satellite system commander and chief designer. The aerospace technology group science and Technology Committee consultant, China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation, the chief scientist of three probe system Chang'e five chief designer, commander in chief expert consultants, space science and deep space exploration.

“玉兔号”月球车今日凌晨“冬眠”

"Rabbit" Rover "hibernation early this morning"

据叶培建介绍,由于月球绕着地球转一圈是28天,月球的一天是地球的28天,因此月球的一个白天是地球的14天,月球的一个晚上也是地球的14天,昨日到今日要进入月夜,温度将下降到零下负170度,而夜晚无太阳无法发电,月球车要“冻死了”,所以今天的凌晨月球车设置为冬眠状态。但之后仍然需要它“活过来”好好工作,所以在这次的着陆器和巡视器上我国第一次使用核同位素发热,让月球车可以在负170度的情况底下保持最低的生存条件。另外,还设置了一个唤醒电路,到下个月月初、太阳再升起来的时候,试着把它“叫醒”,但是否可行还有待事实证明。

According to Ye Peijian introduction, as the moon moves around the earth is round 28 days, the moon day is 28 Earth days, so one day the moon is the earth's 14 days, the moon for one night is 14 Earth days, yesterday to today to enter the moonlit night, the temperature will drop to minus 170 degrees and the night without the sun, no power, the lunar rover to "freeze", so today's morning of lunar rover is set to a state of hibernation. But still need it "live" good work, so in the lander and Rover on the China first use nuclear isotope fever, let the rover can maintain the lowest living conditions in 170 case. In addition, also set up a wake-up circuit, by the time of next month, the sun will rise up, try to "wake up", but is feasible remains to be proved.

嫦娥五号返回方式将创新

Chang'e five return mode innovation

叶建培描述了嫦娥五号从发射到返回的整个过程。

Ye Jianpei described the Chang'e five from launch to the whole procedure returns.

嫦娥五号将到新建的海南发射场、用新研制的长征五号发射,它由4个器组成,着陆器、上升器、轨道器、返回器。这4个器的组合体打到月球轨道,打到月球轨道以后轨道器、返回器成一个组合,着陆器、上升器呈一个组合,这两个组合分离,着陆器带着上升器像嫦娥三号一样,降低在预定的地区。

The goddess of the moon will be five to the newly established Hainan launch site, using the newly developed long march five launch, it consists of 4 components, the lander, riser, the orbiter, return device. Combination of these 4 devices to the orbit of the moon, to the orbit of the moon after the orbiter, return to a portfolio, the lander, which is a combination of rising, the two combination, the lander with riser like Chang'e three, lower in the predetermined area.

着陆器上有两个机械手,一个机械手在月球表面采样、封装到容器里,另一个机械手能在月球上打钻2米深,采集地下样品并封装。机械手会将封装后的容器转移到着陆器的上升器里,上升器将从月面上起飞,进入月球轨道后,轨道器和返回器的组合体去追它,交汇到一起后,把上升器里面的样品转回到转移器,然后把上升器扔掉,轨道器和返回器绕过月球返回地球。

There are two robot lander, a mechanical hand sampling, on the surface of the moon packaging into the container, the other a robot on the moon drilling 2 meters deep underground, collecting samples and packaging. The manipulator will be transferred to the container after rising for lander, a riser will take off from the lunar surface, to enter the moon's orbit, the orbiter and return device combination to chase it, meeting together, put up inside the samples back to the transfer device, and then the riser away, orbiter and return device around the moon back to earth.

叶培建表示,嫦娥五号的返回会有一个很大的创新。过去都是直接返回,这一次为了解决落点、着陆角以调整冲击力的问题,决定分离进入大气层到60公里时不回来,再跳回到宇宙当中去,再跳回大气层,然后再回来。“通过这个办法,距离越长,走的时间越长,我们可以得到很多好处,可以减少发热,减少着陆角等等,这种返回方式也将是我们的第一次试验。”

Ye Peijian said, Chang'e five return there will be a great innovation. The past is returned directly, this time in order to solve the landing, landing angle to adjust the impact of the problem, decided to separate into the atmosphere to 60 km does not come back, then jumped back to the universe, then jump back to the atmosphere, and then come back. "In this way, the longer the distance, go longer, we can get a lot of benefits, can reduce fever, reduce the landing angle and so on, this return mode will also be the first test of our."

叶建培也说明,为了增加可靠性,将先发射试验器,这就是明年发射的嫦娥四号。嫦娥四号将打到月球但不落月,它的返回器和嫦娥五号的返回器一模一样,可以用来验证这种返回方式。

Ye Jianpei also shows that, in order to increase the reliability, will be the first emission tester, which is the next launch Chang'e four. Chang'e four will hit the moon but not fall months, its return device and Chang'e five return device as like as two peas, can be used to verify this return mode.

目前中国没有载人登月计划

At present China not manned lunar program

对于之前网上在传的我国将取消载人登月计划的消息,叶培建用三句话概括了我国对载人登月计划的态度:“第一,人类要征服太空首先要去月球,美国人去过了,中国人一定要去,中国人也一定能够去;第二,目前我们国家没有任何载人登月的计划,因此也无所谓前几天网上传的取消这个计划的无稽之谈,没有这个计划就没有取消;第三,一个国家有没有载人登月的计划要看国家的实力、国家综合发展的需要,随着国家经济能力的发展和科学技术的进步,我认为中国迟迟晚晚是要搞载人登月的。”

For before the Internet will cancel the manned moon landing plan in our country the news, Ye Peijian uses three words summed up China's attitude to the manned moon landing plan ": first, the human to conquer space must first go to the moon, the Americans have been to, Chinese must go, Chinese will be able to; second, at present our country has no manned moon landing plan, therefore also does not matter a few days before the Internet to cancel the plan is not groundless statement, this plan would not cancel; third, no manned landing on the moon has a national plan to watch the national strength, comprehensive national development needs, with the development of national economy and science ability the progress of technology, I think Chinese has been late to the manned lunar landing."

同时叶培建也透露最近一版的航天白皮书已经明确提出我国已经开始载人登月的关键技术研究,表示希望在有生之年能够看到中国人登上月球。

At the same time, Ye Peijian also revealed that a recent edition of the white paper has clearly put forward the Aerospace China has begun to research on the key technology of manned lunar landing, expressed the hope to see Chinese landed on the moon in the rest of one's life.

Posted by: Astro0 Dec 25 2013, 11:06 AM

ADMIN NOTE: A PM was sent to Gofar about the Forum rules on discussion of 'manned spaceflight'. As this is one of their first posts and simply a translation, no action is required. Obviously no further discussion needs to be entered into on the subject. Thanks all. smile.gif

Posted by: Cosmic Penguin Aug 10 2014, 10:30 AM

The Chinese are going to launch a prototype of the CE-5 descent module on a free-return trajectory around the Moon and back this October: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-08/10/c_133546027.htm

(this has been known for some time, but not well advertised by the Chinese. Given this is flying before IXV and EFT-1 maybe we need a dedicated thread here now? tongue.gif )

Posted by: charborob Sep 3 2014, 11:41 AM

According to http://www.space.com/27011-china-moon-orbiter-recoverable-prototype-launch.html, the Chang'e 5 prototype will be an orbiter and will be called Chang'e 4. It is the backup for Chang'e 3 that has been "adapted to verify the technologies needed for the Chang'e 5 mission". Well, it looks like the Chinese won't send another rover as a follow-up to Chang'e 3. Too bad, from a lunar surface exploration point of view.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Sep 3 2014, 01:25 PM

The mission numbering might just be an assumption by the writer, Leonard David. It's hard to know anything for certain at the moment. My understanding had been that the sample return test capsule would be carried by an orbiter more like Chang'E 2 , but everything is uncertain until it happens. I still hope for a rover mission to try to overcome the problems experienced by Yutu, but that's just me wishing for something!

Phil


Posted by: A.Nemo Sep 6 2014, 09:54 AM

QUOTE (charborob @ Sep 3 2014, 07:41 PM) *
According to http://www.space.com/27011-china-moon-orbiter-recoverable-prototype-launch.html, the Chang'e 5 prototype will be an orbiter and will be called Chang'e 4. It is the backup for Chang'e 3 that has been "adapted to verify the technologies needed for the Chang'e 5 mission". Well, it looks like the Chinese won't send another rover as a follow-up to Chang'e 3. Too bad, from a lunar surface exploration point of view.


Chang'e-5 pathfinder will be launched in october, it may be called Chang'e-5 T1(test?)
Chang'e-4 will be launched in 2016, it will another rover ,while added a sample arm, verify the lunar sample technology for Chang'e-5

Posted by: A.Nemo Sep 6 2014, 09:56 AM

http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2014-09/05/content_2745753.htm
他表示,嫦娥五号的主要任务是去月球取样,并把样品拿回来。也就是完成探月工程“绕月-落月-返回”三部曲中,最为艰巨的“返回”任务。嫦娥三号“落月”地点位于虹湾地区,而嫦娥五号则准备在风暴洋附近。两者相距非常远,不会产生交叉。
Chang'e-5 will be landed in the Oceanus Procellarum

I think Chang'e-4 will also landed here

Posted by: Phil Stooke Sep 6 2014, 06:55 PM

Thank you for all this very useful information.

Phil

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Oct 14 2014, 08:53 PM

Cháng'é-whatevernumber will be launched next October 23:

http://www.space.com/27422-china-moon-mission-launch-october.html

Will we finally know what is Cháng'é-4 (rover, reentry-test, cancelled, other)? unsure.gif

Thorsten

Posted by: elakdawalla Oct 16 2014, 06:14 PM

I tweeted that and had a couple of different people correct me who said that the thing that is launching in October is called Chang'e 5 Test Device, or Chang'e 5 T-1.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 16 2014, 07:15 PM

There is terrible confusion about this in the media, but it seems clear that there will be a future lander and rover called Chang'E 4, in 2016, which will test the soil-sampling equipment for the sample mission. This re-entry test flight is not Chang'E 4.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo Oct 16 2014, 07:36 PM

I may be wrong but I think I have never seen the test flight of the sample return capsule called "Chang'E 4" in Chinese media

Posted by: elakdawalla Oct 16 2014, 08:09 PM

https://t.co/QbooSm1OF8 from August 10, which refers to the impending launch as 嫦娥五号 试验器, Chang'e 5 Test Vehicle.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 16 2014, 08:20 PM

Paolo, I think you're right - but it's a mess in the western media.

Phil

Posted by: Ron Hobbs Oct 16 2014, 11:30 PM

Spaceflight Now's International Launch Schedule bills it as "Chang'e 5 Precursor."

"A Chinese Long March 3C rocket will launch a mission to demonstrate re-entry technologies for the planned Chang'e 5 lunar sample return mission."


Posted by: Thorsten Denk Oct 17 2014, 03:10 PM

http://www.spaceflight101.com/change-5-test-mission.html.
They call it "Chang'e 5-T1", but I wonder if the "T1" is really official.

With respect to Chang'e-4, I found at nasaspaceflight.com the following http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34162.msg1272092#msg1272092
(« Reply #38 on: 10/16/2014 11:53 PM ») from User "Blackstar":

QUOTE
So I conversed a bit with a reporter about this issue. He says that he has a source who has provided some information on the CE-4 mission (lander/rover) and will be writing an article about that soon.

So maybe we will learn something new soon.

I hope so too. smile.gif

Maybe (my speculation) they are redesigning the lander now,
taking into account the lessons learned from Chang'e-3.
When finished, then they'll let us know...

Thorsten

Posted by: dvandorn Oct 18 2014, 02:28 AM

"Blackstar" on that forum is a science and aerospace writer/historian named Dwayne Day, who has more connections in the industry than most NASA administrators... He may occasionally pass along rumors (as we all do on occasion), but his rumors are usually more reliable than press releases from the various agencies, universities and aerospace firms.

The best information I've heard is that Chang'e 4 will be not only a revamped version of Yutu, but will also test the sample collection and caching systems. Chang'e 5 will then be the sample return mission. What I've not heard is whether the lander that carries the Chang'e 5 rover will also carry the ascent vehicle that will rendezvous with the orbiter with the Earth return capsule.

If they send separate flights with the rover lander, the ascent vehicle and the Earth return orbiter, the rover will have to be able to make its way to the ascent vehicle to deliver its samples. This would make this a combination LOR/LSR mission architecture -- lunar orbit rendezvous plus lunar surface rendezvous.

I'll be very interested in seeing what they end up doing. If they do it that way, though, they can really do some robust recon and sample return work on the Moon, which will be really interesting to see.

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Posted by: Paolo Oct 18 2014, 07:15 AM

as fare as I know, CE-5 will not carry a rover. samples are collected by a robotic arm and the lander carries the ascent rocket to put samples in lunar orbit for rendezvous with the Earth return module.
see for ex http://www.spaceflight101.com/uploads/6/4/0/6/6406961/306814_orig.jpg

Posted by: dvandorn Oct 18 2014, 12:39 PM

Okay, kewl. A rather less robust geological exploration in re the sample return, then. As with the Soviet Luna sample return spacecraft, your selection of samples is limited to the variety available within reach of an arm attached to the lander. Certainly, this is more robust than, say, the seminal APXS systems flown on Surveyor, which had a variety of targets limited to an area less than a square foot (and that only when improvised operations using Surveyor's digging scoop arm to push the APXS sensor away from the ground directly below its deployment housing -- without that improvisation, Surveyor would have a target selection pre-determined by the single spot over which the APXS sensor was located after landing).

It *is* nice that the Chang'e return scheme, as per the illustration, will be a deep core. Such was returned by the final Luna sample return craft, as well (though perhaps not as deep as the Apollo deep cores). But we're not looking at the kind of exploration flexibility and variety, in terms of returned samples, that you could get by roving around and selecting the most interesting samples (both those that represent the common rocks and soils that define the overall area geologically plus the unique and exotic samples that represent rocks thrown into the area from other geological units far away). Yes, you would need to acquire very small samples of each type of rock you find, but that's the same challenge MSR will be facing in the next couple of decades.

I guess the good news is that China is developing an infrastructure for unmanned lunar exploration that can be exploited in a number of ways in the future. Perhaps after the deep-core sample return process has been proven out, we will see the LSR-style rover-cache-plus-separate-return-vehicle architecture developed to provide a truly robust geological exploration capability. At least, one can hope...

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Posted by: William Pei Oct 23 2014, 02:13 AM

New lunar mission to test Chang'e-5 technology
English.news.cn 2014-10-22 13:57:53

• China will launch a new lunar mission this week to test technology likely to be used in Chang'e-5.
• The experimental spacecraft is expected to reach a location near the moon and return to Earth.
• Spacecraft's speed will be slowed down so it can land safely at determined location during process.



BEIJING, Oct. 22 (Xinhua) -- China will launch a new lunar mission this week to test technology likely to be used in Chang'e-5, a future lunar probe with the ability to return to Earth.

The experimental spacecraft launched this week is expected to reach a location near the moon and return to Earth, according to the State Administration of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense on Wednesday.

The test model is currently ready and scheduled to be launched between Friday and Sunday from the Xichang Satellite Launch Center in southwest China, with the whole mission taking about eight days.

"The meteorological condition will meet the requirements for the launch," said Tao Zhongshan, chief engineer of the center.

It is the first time China has conducted a test involving a half-orbit around the moon at a height of 380,000 kilometers before having the craft return to Earth.

The return mission will involve the spacecraft entering, exiting, and re-entering Earth's atmosphere and landing, said the administration.

During this process, the spacecraft's speed will be slowed down so it can land safely at a determined location, a key capability needed for Chang'e-5, which is expected to return from the moon at a velocity of 11.2 kilometers per second, according to the scientists' explanation.

China's advanced Long March-3C carrier rocket will make its debut during the test.

The Chang'e-5 probe, expected to launch in 2017, will be tasked with landing on the moon, collecting samples and returning to Earth.

"Apart from the technology of self-returning to Earth, the probe will make breakthrough in sample collecting, moon surface takeoff, rendezvous and docking in lunar orbit," said Hu Hao, chief designer of the third phase of China's lunar probe project.

China carried out Chang'e-1 and Chang'e-2 missions in 2007 and 2010, respectively.

In December, 2013, Chang'e-3 lunar probe succeeded in soft landing on the moon, with the country's first moon rover on board. The Chang'e-3 mission marked completion of the second phase of China's lunar program, which includes orbiting, landing and returning to Earth.

PS, from other newest report, this test spacecraft will also carry two nanosatellite made by Luxembourg and Denmark, named "4M Radio Beacon" and "Pocket Spaceship PS86X1", will be released near the moon and flyby the moon.

Posted by: tolis Oct 23 2014, 09:31 PM

..and it's off:

http://www.spaceflight101.com/change-5-test-mission-updates.html


interestingly, the mission profile appears similar to that of the soviet zond missions of the late 1960s.

Posted by: A.Nemo Oct 24 2014, 01:57 PM

Before first TCM,CE5T1 take a photo of earth

 

Posted by: dvandorn Oct 24 2014, 03:06 PM

Looks like a black-and-white picture of Earth that has been tinted blue.

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Posted by: Paolo Oct 24 2014, 03:56 PM

would be interesting to know whether it comes from a proper "2D" camera, i.e. not a pushbroom one like on CE-1 and -2 or from an engineering webcam like those on CE-2

Posted by: climber Oct 24 2014, 07:14 PM

QUOTE (A.Nemo @ Oct 24 2014, 03:57 PM) *
Before first TCM,CE5T1 take a photo of earth


Looks like a black-and-white picture of Earth that has been tinted blue.

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)


We may have a blue moon thou: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_moon

Posted by: Astro0 Oct 25 2014, 06:51 AM

"...tinted blue."

More likely just the quality of the monitor it was screen-captured from. wink.gif

Posted by: dvandorn Oct 25 2014, 12:34 PM

Yeah, possibly a monitor issue. But there are no colors in that image except blue -- not even white. The clouds are just a lighter blue than the rest of the image. If it's a color image, there are no land masses visible and the white clouds have been heavily tinted.

It still looks like a tinted gray-scale image to me, to be honest. I get the feeling that if you just drew the blue channel down to where the clouds are white, the rest of the image would become gray.

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Posted by: A.Nemo Oct 26 2014, 08:29 AM

perhaps when CE5T1 reentry,there will be a live on cctv 13


 

Posted by: Paolo Oct 26 2014, 08:36 AM

I didn't notice it before... the phase of the Moon when CE-5 T1 fies by Tuesday morning will be similar to that of the Luna 3 flyby 55 years ago. so more or less the same portion of the farside will be illuminated

Posted by: A.Nemo Oct 28 2014, 01:15 PM

CE-5T1 has taken some photos of moon and earth,very beautiful!

 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 28 2014, 01:26 PM

Yes, very beautiful. That's Mare Marginis and the crater Neper on its southern (bottom) edge in the first image.

Phil


Posted by: Cosmic Penguin Oct 28 2014, 02:33 PM

QUOTE (A.Nemo @ Oct 28 2014, 09:15 PM) *
CE-5T1 has taken some photos of moon and earth,very beautiful!


Here are the photos in full resolution, from Xinhua News:

(apparently they were taken from the solar array monitoring camera - the same as the one used on Chang'e 2, so this should be the full shot)






Posted by: dvandorn Oct 28 2014, 03:06 PM

Now, *that* ain't a tinted-blue B&W pic of Earth! Very nice.

-the other Doug (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Posted by: elakdawalla Oct 28 2014, 03:58 PM

Phil, Cosmic Penguin: what do you think the correct image credit is on these photos?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 28 2014, 04:40 PM

My best guess is CAST - the China Academy of Space Technology.

http://www.cast.cn/CastEn/

Phil

Posted by: ngunn Oct 28 2014, 04:47 PM

I can't make sense of the illumination angle in the middle image. The Moon looks to be lit a little more from below and the Earth a little more from the side. Is it just me?

EDIT: the explanation lies in this being a wide angle view. It makes sense when the image is viewed from close enough. (Earth should subtend around 2 degrees.)

Posted by: nprev Nov 1 2014, 12:23 AM

Successful reentry and landing! Here's Emily's blog article:

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/10311623-change-5-test-vehicle-lands.html

Posted by: nprev Nov 1 2014, 12:26 AM

I can't find an English-language source for this so far, but I'm very curious about the trajectory of the 'skip' that it did before reentry. Where did it execute this maneuver (i.e., over what part of the Earth)? Wondering how far it skipped.

Posted by: SpaceListener Nov 1 2014, 12:31 AM

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/China_completes_first_mission_to_moon_and_back_999.html

Posted by: nprev Nov 1 2014, 02:06 AM

Thanks. I was looking for something with more detail about the reentry maneuver itself, but it's possible--even likely, I guess--that that information is not publicly available.

Posted by: Yeh Nov 1 2014, 02:18 AM

I am relaying some images taken by a PLA journalist at the control center and posted at http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206104.htm , including an actual image during the reentry phase.

At page 11 of that webpage, there is a cartoon showing the procedure of the process. Emily's making a good point (https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/528366721875193857) that the service module might still be in the orbit. The cartoon mentioned that a maneuver was performed "to avoid collision with the capsule" but I am not seeing any information about the service module after the separation.




 

Posted by: A.Nemo Nov 1 2014, 02:31 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 1 2014, 08:26 AM) *
I can't find an English-language source for this so far, but I'm very curious about the trajectory of the 'skip' that it did before reentry. Where did it execute this maneuver (i.e., over what part of the Earth)? Wondering how far it skipped.


according nsf's satwatcher:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34162.msg1279728#msg1279728

others from chinese internet


 

Posted by: Yeh Nov 1 2014, 02:58 AM

QUOTE (Yeh @ Oct 31 2014, 09:18 PM) *
I am relaying some images taken by a PLA journalist at the control center and posted at http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206104.htm , including an actual image during the reentry phase.

At page 11 of that webpage, there is a cartoon showing the procedure of the process. Emily's making a good point (https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/528366721875193857) that the service module might still be in the orbit. The cartoon mentioned that a maneuver was performed "to avoid collision with the capsule" but I am not seeing any information about the service module after the separation.


http://news.cntv.cn/2014/11/01/ARTI1414801849741743.shtml
1:00 videos of separation between service module and capsule; starting 2:40 live video of capsule reentry.

I am answering myself... according to SASTIND head Xu Dazhe, service module is now "on its way back to the Moon" for "extending mission": http://news.cntv.cn/2014/11/01/VIDE1414801845491297.shtml at 1:40 (in Chinese).

Posted by: nprev Nov 1 2014, 07:54 AM

Thank you VERY much, Yeh and A. Nemo. Congratulations to China for this successful mission!

Posted by: Yeh Nov 2 2014, 03:25 AM

http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206266.htm

Chang'e 5 T1 service module mission extends to May 2015. The module will fly to EML2 point first, and then to a lunar orbit.

Posted by: nprev Nov 2 2014, 03:47 AM

Really! That's unexpected, and very interesting. What are the objectives of these maneuvers, Yeh? I'm guessing navigation practice and additional systems testing.

Posted by: Paolo Nov 2 2014, 07:04 AM

the L2 extension clearly shows that they are considering a farside landing mission for the future, for which a relay at the L2 would be almost necessary.
in fact, are there any hint of the extension of the unmanned Chang'e program beyond CE-6?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 2 2014, 02:39 PM

I have not heard of any extension. Conceivably Chang'E 4 could be targeted to the far side, becoming the first landing ever in that hemisphere.

Phil


Posted by: Yeh Nov 2 2014, 04:57 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 1 2014, 10:47 PM) *
Really! That's unexpected, and very interesting. What are the objectives of these maneuvers, Yeh? I'm guessing navigation practice and additional systems testing.


According to the report, it is for "verification of navigation/control technique of the Chang'e 5 mission".

Re Paolo -- interesting, I am seeing discussion on 9ifly.cn (a forum comparable to unmannedspaceflight.com in China) that also speculating that Chang'e 5 or 6 may be targeting the far side of the Moon. There are some calculations that seems to conclude that it is possible to achieve this with CZ5 launch system. Link (in Chinese): http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=4587&page=19#pid331129

Posted by: elakdawalla Nov 3 2014, 05:22 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Nov 2 2014, 06:39 AM) *
I have not heard of any extension. Conceivably Chang'E 4 could be targeted to the far side, becoming the first landing ever in that hemisphere.

THAT WOULD BE SO AWESOME. Even more awesome would be if they could send Chang'e 5 there. That would catapult the Chang'e program from following in the footsteps of past exploration to performing next steps beyond what anybody has done before.

But they targeted Chang'e 3 based on Chang'e 1 and 2 high-res imaging of the landing site. They wouldn't have high-res imaging of the far side, would they? Of course there is all the American and Japanese data to work with...

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 3 2014, 09:41 PM

Chang'E 2 only obtained the very high resolution images of its landing area around Sinus Iridum. Originally I thought that limited missions 4, 5 and 6 to that area, probably two rovers and then two sample returns in the two very distinct mare units.

Since then there have been rumors that the next landing site and the first sample return might be in Oceanus Procellarum (my guess: in the youngest mare basalt region south of Aristarchus Plateau). Now we hear about the far side. It would be a great thing to do, but I can't imagine it being the first sample return. So maybe that's a more suitable destination for Chang'E 6.

Phil

Posted by: A.Nemo Nov 10 2014, 12:22 PM

SASTIND have released a new photo of earth and moon
when CE5T1 taken this photo, earth was 540000km away and moon was 920000km away

 

Posted by: A.Nemo Nov 29 2014, 08:55 AM

http://china.cnr.cn/gdgg/201411/t20141129_516922801.shtml

according to CNR, CE5T1 have been inserted earth-moon lagrangian point-2 on november 27,2014


 

Posted by: Paolo Dec 3 2014, 06:39 AM

this xinhua article discusses future plans for CE5T1:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-12/02/c_1113493000.htm

from Google translate:

QUOTE
in early January 2015 the service module will leave the Earth-Moon L2 point of flying to the moon; the middle of recent months, brake, forming lunar orbit; February, March each conduct a lunar orbit rendezvous and docking Remote Pilot test; April-to-Moon imaging, shooting preset sampling landing zone topography.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 3 2014, 02:53 PM

" lunar exploration phase III reentry return flight test (referred to as "Dumbo" )"

What? Not an homage to the flying elephant, presumably... I wonder what it means.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo Dec 3 2014, 03:04 PM

If I understand correctly, the probe has been nicknamed Xiaofei (小飞) in Chinese, meaning "little fly", or maybe "little flyer". and that's also the Chinese name of Disney's Dumbo

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 3 2014, 03:57 PM

Ah... that's the connection. Very interesting!

Phil

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Jan 6 2015, 09:21 AM

Cháng'é-5 T1 (or what's remaining from it)
has left Earth-Lunar L2 and returns to moon orbit.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/900026.shtml

Thorsten

Posted by: Cosmic Penguin Jan 6 2015, 02:35 PM

In summary:

CE-5-T1 left EM-L2 at around 15:00 UTC on Jan. 4 and is scheduled to reach lunar orbit by mid-January. As of midnight UTC on Jan. 5 the spacecraft is 445000 km from Earth and 57000 km from the Moon.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-12/02/c_1113493000.htm it will do at least 2 things in lunar orbit. In February and March it will perform 2 "virtual target" rendezvous tests for the future CE-5 mission (not unlike how the Shuttle did "dummy rendezvous" tests in the 1980s). In April the small monitoring camera will be used to obtain higher resolution photos of CE-5's landing zone.

Posted by: Cosmic Penguin Jan 11 2015, 05:29 AM

And CE-5-T1 has entered lunar orbit yesterday at around 19:00 UTC - initial orbit is 200 x 5300 km with period of 8 hours. It will make 2 more burns over the next 2 days to lower its orbit to a 200 km circular one with period of 127 minutes.

Source: http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2015/01-11/6956390.shtml

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jan 14 2015, 01:42 PM

Anatoly Zak has an article here with images of Earth and the Moon taken from L2:

http://sen.com/news/china-puts-spacecraft-into-moon-orbit

Phil


Posted by: Explorer1 Jan 22 2015, 04:34 AM

A lower orbit now: http://spaceflightnow.com/2015/01/21/chinese-pathfinder-probe-arrives-in-lunar-orbit/
Images of the potential sample return landing sight coming in April, apparently (but nothing yet on where).


Posted by: Phil Stooke Jan 22 2015, 01:39 PM

Suggestions have been circulated that the region will be Oceanus Procellarum. I have suggested that the most likely area would be the area of the youngest known mare basalts (determined from crater counting), south of Aristarchus. This is (one of the top scientific targets on many lists as it shows how long mare volcanism continued. A secondary goal would be Aristarchus ejecta, and a tertiary goal would be ejecta thrown off the nearby Aristarchus Plateau.

Phil


Posted by: kenny Feb 8 2015, 10:32 PM

Leonard David has posted this visualisation of the Chinese sample return mission taking off from the moon.
It fits very well with the design drawing shown in Post #9 in this thread. It also lays to rest the older design portrayed in Post #8.

http://www.leonarddavid.com/china-lunar-orbiter-assess-return-sample-tactics/


Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 17 2015, 01:03 AM

http://www.cast.cn/CastCn/Show.asp?ArticleID=48907

News that the Chang'E 5 T-1 test vehicle, still orbiting the moon, began imaging potential landing sits in May. No images released yet.

Phil

Google translation:
----------------------------
May 28 15:10 pm camera power is first applied a test shot, successfully shot two minutes of the Earth video, get a clear image of the earth. After the implementation of the third lunar imaging, to obtain images of more than 3,000 frames, good image quality.
The imaging camera to obtain a 2.5m resolution images of the lunar surface, indicating that the camera is operating normally in orbit long for the subsequent expansion of tasks carried out to provide a strong guarantee.
[China Academy of Space Technology copyright owners, please indicate the source]

Posted by: Explorer1 Jul 17 2015, 01:50 AM

Was the full mosaic in this article released already? I seem to recall only seeing the single frame with Earth and the lunar far side visible.
http://gbtimes.com/china/china-unveils-plans-far-side-moon-landing-and-hints-future-lunar-base

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 17 2015, 06:50 AM

Yes, that has been out for a while.

Phil

Posted by: Yeh Sep 2 2015, 09:46 PM

CE5T1 completes imaging CE5's landing zone: http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2015-09-02/203732269747.shtml (Chinese)

The resolution is said to be 1m/pix. CE5T1 also verify the techniques needed to control the ascending module and service module.

Posted by: Nordren Sep 2 2015, 09:55 PM

QUOTE (Yeh @ Sep 3 2015, 12:46 AM) *
CE5T1 completes imaging CE5's landing zone: http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2015-09-02/203732269747.shtml (Chinese)

The resolution is said to be 1m/pix. CE5T1 also verify the techniques needed to control the ascending module and service module.


Pics attached


 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Sep 2 2015, 11:06 PM

One way to interpret the Chinese text is that this imaging from 30 Aug. to 2 Sept completed the imaging of the fifth potential landing site. I don't know where any of them are yet - if anyone knows please let me know. But nice to know there are five candidates.

EDIT - the more I think about it, the more I suspect that the 'fifth' referred to is the fifth spacecraft, Chang'E 5. Google Translate is a blunt instrument for probing difficult questions. There might only be one site after all. I hope we will learn more soon.

EDIT AGAIN - a bit of detective work. The terminator was crossing the Mare Crisium area over the few days the images were taken. I had been expecting a landing in Oceanus Procellarum, but the sun would have been overhead there, and these images have shadows suggesting a lower sun elevation. Possibly a site in the eastern maria, but west of Crisium. Not much to go on yet.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo Sep 3 2015, 07:01 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Sep 3 2015, 01:06 AM) *
One way to interpret the Chinese text is that this imaging from 30 Aug. to 2 Sept completed the imaging of the fifth potential landing site.


there is also a release in English here: http://www.icrosschina.com/news/2015/0902/17908.shtml
it is clearly stated that the orbiter imaged the landing site of CE-5

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 3 2015, 03:13 PM

Is there anything that indicates whether Chang'e 5 T1 is being used to image the potential farside landing site of Chang'e 4?

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 3 2015, 04:29 PM

Came across http://www.cast.cn/CastCn/Show.asp?ArticleID=48986, but I can't make heads or tails of the Google translation.

Posted by: Yeh Sep 3 2015, 05:14 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Sep 2 2015, 06:06 PM) *
One way to interpret the Chinese text is that this imaging from 30 Aug. to 2 Sept completed the imaging of the fifth potential landing site. I don't know where any of them are yet - if anyone knows please let me know. But nice to know there are five candidates.

EDIT - the more I think about it, the more I suspect that the 'fifth' referred to is the fifth spacecraft, Chang'E 5. Google Translate is a blunt instrument for probing difficult questions. There might only be one site after all. I hope we will learn more soon.

EDIT AGAIN - a bit of detective work. The terminator was crossing the Mare Crisium area over the few days the images were taken. I had been expecting a landing in Oceanus Procellarum, but the sun would have been overhead there, and these images have shadows suggesting a lower sun elevation. Possibly a site in the eastern maria, but west of Crisium. Not much to go on yet.

Phil


Phil -- I believe the "fifth" indeed refers to the fifth probe in the Chang'E series. And it is from a verified source that CE5 will land in Oceanus Procellarum: http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-09/04/c_1112367913.htm (Chinese).

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Sep 3 2015, 11:29 AM) *
Came across http://www.cast.cn/CastCn/Show.asp?ArticleID=48986, but I can't make heads or tails of the Google translation.


It is about a documentary film or something -- they take the film in 3D. Nothing to do with CE5 or CE5T1 the probes.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 12 2015, 05:17 PM

https://agu.confex.com/agu/fm15/meetingapp.cgi/Paper/68812

AGU abstract - it says the landing site is in the northeastern part of Oceanus Procellarum.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 13 2015, 03:49 PM

Tweet from IAC:

Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes · Oct 12
China space admin chief Xu: Lunar sample return mission in 2017, lander on far side in 2018, lander/rover combination in 2020.#IAC2015

Phil

(de Selding is with spacenews.com)

Posted by: tolis May 26 2016, 01:51 PM

The web site of http://www.must.edu.mo/ISLPS2016/ links to a nice collection of abstracts ( see link at bottom left) including several that specifically focus on the Chang'e series of missions.
I note in particular the one by one by Zhao et al (p78) where it is stated that "Mons Rümker is .. a priority landing site for Chang’E-5."
I would take the cautious view that this site has been shortlisted and is presently in the top x, rather than being first on the list.

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 26 2016, 08:14 PM

This is the same information presented at LPSC. Another bit of news is here:

http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Deepspace/CE-5/CE5-launch.html

I used Google to translate it - it mentions landing near Sinus Iridum, but is not clear what 'near' means. Elsewhere we have been told 1000 km from Sinus Iridum.

That link includes some images with chinese text - any advice on their content would be appreciated.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo May 27 2016, 01:10 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 26 2016, 09:14 PM) *
That link includes some images with chinese text - any advice on their content would be appreciated.


that's two pages from this paper: http://jdse.bit.edu.cn/sktcxbcn/ch/reader/view_abstract.aspx?file_no=20150201&flag=1

http://jdse.bit.edu.cn/sktcxbcn/ch/reader/create_pdf.aspx?file_no=20150201&flag=1&journal_id=sktcxbcn&year_id=2015

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jan 1 2017, 10:21 PM

https://www.chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Deepspace/CE-5/CE-5.html

Some new images of the CE5 return capsule being prepared. I am still waiting for news on the landing site location... maybe that will come at LPSC in March.

Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 2 2017, 12:44 AM

Update on Chang'E 5 landing site selection. Not at LPSC, but at the European Geoscience meeting in April:

http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EGU2017/EGU2017-2026.pdf


Summarizing, the pre-selected landing region for CE-5 extends from 41 degrees to 45 degrees N and 49 degrees to 69 W, in northern Oceanus Procellarum west of Montes Jura and north of Mons Rümker. After an analysis of the topography and geologic units, seven sites were shortlisted, in the vicinity of 43 N, 55 W. This is in an area of younger basalts, probably younger than anything sampled before. A significant bit of science.

Here's a map of the area:



Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 2 2017, 12:59 AM

And a closer view of the target area - it's the smooth patch in the middle of this scene.

Phil


Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Mar 2 2017, 02:36 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Mar 1 2017, 06:44 PM) *
This is in an area of younger basalts, probably younger than anything sampled before.


I was hoping for that.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 2 2017, 06:50 PM

An updated map of the landing area.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 6 2017, 04:25 AM

And finally, to show that the precursor mission Chang'E 5 T1 actually did image the landing area, here is the location of one of its images:



(west of the preferred landing area, NW of Mons Rumker, at 43 N, 61 W or 299 E)

Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 15 2017, 02:20 PM

I have located the second image now, on the western edge of the first one at 42.763 N, 61.120 W. I will post a graphic when I have time.

Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 15 2017, 03:46 PM

CE5-T1 second image located.

Phil





 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 22 2017, 05:13 AM

I have learned some new things about the CE5 landing site. The EGU abstract I linked to higher up on this page defined the large landing area and described a preferred area where seven sites had been 'shortlisted'. Shortlisted was my word, they only referred to them as possible sites in the abstract. The lead author of that abstract has now advised me that the seven sites are just suggestions at this stage, and they are spread over a larger area than my map suggests, but all in the eastern half of the main landing area (i.e all in the younger basalt unit). These sites will be or have been transmitted to the mission management and a final selection will be announced nearer the launch date. I did not see the presentation at EGU and nobody who did seems to have filled in any more details in tweets etc.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 23 2017, 12:52 AM

More on those sites later. Meanwhile, here's something I am putting together for a blog post. Clementine color ratio superimposed on the map I made earlier. The gray strip is missing Clementine data. A few small data gaps elsewhere have been cosmetically patched (since this product is not for scientific analysis). The landing site will be in the blue unit.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 2 2017, 04:45 PM

Sad news. A second launch of the large new rocket which is needed for Chang'E 5 has just failed. It seems inevitable that another test - or even two - will be needed before CE5 can be launched, pushing it back well into next year.

Phil

Posted by: Paolo Jul 2 2017, 06:37 PM

let's look at the bright side: maybe CE-4 will finally fly before CE-5

Posted by: Phil Stooke Sep 25 2017, 10:50 AM

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/912197913995911168

Confirmation that the Chang'E 5 schedule will change, though no details of how. Other rumours suggest CE4 in 2018, CE5 in 2019, CE6 in 2020. Paolo - you may be right!

Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 14 2017, 11:16 PM

Chang'E 5 T1, the mission which tested the return capsule design for Chang'E 5, also imaged the CE5 landing area near Rumker - see a few posts above this for more details. This paper:

https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of-spie/10255/1025534/Image-restoration-for-large-motion-blurred-lunar-remote-sensing-image/10.1117/12.2266623.short?SSO=1

describes attempts to de-blur these images. (you can't get the paper without subscription, but you can get the abstract from that page).

This probably explains why so few images have been released. In any case, LRO images will be better and are freely available for the mission planners to use.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Jan 12 2018, 07:26 AM

Confirmation CE5 T1 is still operating in lunar orbit:


https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34162.msg1770545#new


Phil


Posted by: Steve G Apr 16 2018, 12:34 PM

Update on the long March 5 failure and schedule for Chang'e 5

http://spacenews.com/china-reveals-cause-of-long-march-5-failure-lunar-sample-mission-to-follow-return-to-flight/

Posted by: Huguet Jan 17 2019, 02:58 PM

Let's hope they acelerate their program due to CE4 success.

"China to launch Chang'e 5 mission to moon by year-end (Chinadaily.com.cn) 15:32, January 14, 2019
Wu Yanhua, deputy head of the China National Space Administration said at a news conference Monday that the next step in China's lunar exploration program, the Chang'e 5 mission, will take place around the end of this year."

http://en.people.cn/n3/2019/0114/c90000-9537543.html

"Experts are still discussing and verifying the feasibility of subsequent projects, but it's confirmed that there will be another three missions after Chang'e 5," Wu Yanhua, deputy head of the China National Space Administration (CNSA), said at the press briefing.

"Chang'e 6 mission will be designed to bring samples back from the moon's south polar region. Chang'e 7 mission will carry out comprehensive surveys around the moon's south pole, including studying terrain and landforms, the physical composition as well as the space environment in the region.
Chang'e 8 mission, in addition to scientific surveys and experiments, will test key technologies to lay the groundwork for the construction of a science and research base on the moon"
Xinhua reported.

https://www.space.com/43000-china-moon-exploration-plans-research-base.html

...waiting gladly for more info in the 3D Lunar Base printing idea to be tested on the new ce8 project... 3D lunar printing technology can be the huge paradigm break of the XXI century,.. starting printing lunar base body, and then print new space ship body parts?... wink.gif ...the moon seens a good place to build factorys...

Posted by: SpaceListener Jan 17 2019, 03:22 PM

QUOTE (Huguet @ Jan 17 2019, 08:58 AM) *
Let's hope they acelerate their program due to CE4 success.
http://en.people.cn/n3/2019/0114/c90000-9537543.html

Not only depends upon to the success of CE4 but also of the third launch of Long March 5 by 2nd quarter 2019 launching a telecommunication satellite Shijian-20. The fourth Long March 5 will turn to CE5, hopefully, it will occur by December 2019.

Posted by: nogal Jan 25 2019, 10:38 PM

Quote from the ESA "Beckoning Moon" post at http://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2019/01/Beckoning_Moon
"... later this year, ESA tracking stations will provide critical support to China's Chang'e-5 lunar sample return mission, providing communications just after launch and helping Chinese mission controllers determine the precise trajectory of the return capsule."
Fernando

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Jan 29 2019, 12:49 PM

Long March 5 return to flight in July.
If all goes well, Cháng'é-5 at the end of the year.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-01/29/c_137784351.htm

Thorsten

Posted by: Huguet Dec 31 2019, 01:42 PM

https://futurism.com/the-byte/china-launches-powerful-long-march-5-rocket

Long March 5 Flying Again,.. now just to confirm chang-e´5, space station and mars mission for next year... smile.gif

Gladly waiting for 2020...

"The return of Long March-5 inspires China to reach for the stars"
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-12/28/c_138663650.htm

Posted by: Paolo Apr 17 2020, 05:22 PM

some scientific results from the lunar orbiting phase of the CE-5T1 mission:

https://doi.org/10.1051/0004-6361/201936802

QUOTE
Context. Chinese lunar missions have grown in number over the last ten years, with an increasing focus on radio science investigations. In previous work, we estimated two lunar gravity field models, CEGM01 and CEGM02. The recently lunar mission, Chang’e 5T1, which had an orbital inclination between 18 and 68 degrees, and collected orbital tracking data continually for two years, made an improved gravity field model possible.

Aims. Our aim was to estimate a new lunar gravity field model up to degree and order 100, CEGM03, and a new tidal Love number based on the Chang’e 5T1 tracking data combined with the historical tracking data used in the solution of CEGM02. The new model makes use of tracking data with this particular inclination, which has not been used in previous gravity field modeling.

Methods. The solution for this new model was based on our in-house software, LUGREAS. The gravity spectrum power, post-fit residuals after precision orbit determination (POD), lunar surface gravity anomalies, correlations between parameters, admittance and coherence with topography model, and accuracy of POD were analyzed to validate the new CEGM03 model.

Results. We analyzed the tracking data of the Chang’e 5T1 mission and estimated the CEGM03 lunar gravity field model. We found that the two-way Doppler measurement accuracy reached 0.2 mm s−1 with 10 s integration time. The error spectrum shows that the formal error for CEGM03 was at least reduced by about 2 times below the harmonic degree of 20, when compared to the CEGM02 model. The admittance and correlation of gravity and topography was also improved when compared to the correlations for the CEGM02 model. The lunar potential Love number k2 was estimated to be 0.02430±0.0001 (ten times the formal error).

Conclusions. From the model analysis and comparison of the various models, we identified improvements in the CEGM03 model after introducing Chang’e 5T1 tracking data. Moreover, this study illustrates how the low and middle inclination orbits could contribute better accuracy for a low degree of lunar gravity field.

Posted by: Huguet Jul 23 2020, 12:23 PM


Andrew Jones - https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1286213255694823424
"Today's successful launch of Tianwen-1 also means China will move on to launch the Chang'e-5 lunar sample return mission in Q4 this year, also on a Long March 5. That will be a fascinating mission in terms of science and mission complexity."
Larry Teds reply - "I heard from the live interview at CCTV APP that the LM5 for CE5 will arrive at Wenchang in late Sep, and the launch date is set at Nov 24th. Look forward to this mini-Apollo-style robotic mission."

So, it seens Chang'e-5 will fly on november. And others missions will start to get dates...

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 19 2020, 05:19 AM

Launch next week! Here's an interesting paper about using cameras on the sampling arm to map the sampling area. Sampling is twofold on this mission, with a drill and with an arm, doubling the chance of getting something. Monitoring cameras like MSL Hazcams will view the scene, but two cameras on the arm can be used for mapping as well.

https://www.int-arch-photogramm-remote-sens-spatial-inf-sci.net/XLIII-B3-2020/1159/2020/isprs-archives-XLIII-B3-2020-1159-2020.pdf

Also there is an infrared spectrometer like that on the Yutu and Yutu 2 rovers. The rover instruments are body-fixed but the CE5 version can be pointed and will scan an area near the lander.

Fingers crossed - I hope to be mapping the site soon.

Phil

Posted by: nogal Nov 19 2020, 06:21 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Nov 19 2020, 05:19 AM) *
Launch next week!

ESA is collaborating with China on the Chang'e-5 mission, see this article https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2020/11/ESA_tracks_Chang_e-5_Moon_mission
Most interestingly two dates are given: November 23 for the outbound flight and "around 15 December" for the return to Earth.
Fernando

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 21 2020, 08:39 PM

I forgot to mention in my recent post that there is a lunar-penetrating radar as well. Here is an interesting open-access paper about the radar:

https://www.essoar.org/doi/abs/10.1002/essoar.10504784.1

Phil

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Nov 23 2020, 08:33 AM

Possible Cháng'é 5 timeline (in UTC). From "Cosmic Penguin" on Twitter (scoll down a lot!).
https://twitter.com/Cosmic_Penguin/status/1330561964041388033

Launch: Mo Nov23 (today!) between 20:25 und 21:15
S/C sep: 30 Minutes later (already on the way to the Moon)
LOI: Sa Nov28 14:45
Landing: Su Nov29 20:30 (based on MCC screen shots during final rehearsal!)

No guarantee of course.

Thorsten

Posted by: Ron Hobbs Nov 23 2020, 03:21 PM

From an article by Sam McNeil in the Washington Post:

The China National Space Administration said in a statement that the Long March-5Y rocket began fueling up on Monday evening, ahead of a launch scheduled for between 4 a.m. and 5 a.m. Tuesday (2000 and 2100 GMT Monday, 3 p.m. and 4 p.m. EST Monday) at the Wenchang launch center on the southern island province of Hainan.

Posted by: Ron Hobbs Nov 23 2020, 07:44 PM

CGTN is webcasting live coverage of the Chang'e 5 launch.

Go Chang'e 5!

Posted by: nprev Nov 23 2020, 08:12 PM

Anybody have a link?

EDIT: https://spaceflightnow.com/2020/11/23/chang-e-5-launch-mission-status-center/

Posted by: nprev Nov 23 2020, 09:25 PM

Spacecraft sep. Looks like a sweet launch. Here's hoping for a great Sunday landing! smile.gif

Posted by: Huguet Nov 24 2020, 09:17 AM

Solar arrays deployed, the chinese are pretty confident on the mission, their biggest worry is a leak on the sample compartment.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3111146/chinas-first-moon-mission-bring-samples-back-earth-faces

"One of the Chinese space scientists’ biggest worries is that a tiny leak could cause the samples to burn and be lost in the atmosphere."

Posted by: fredk Nov 24 2020, 05:53 PM

S&T https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-news/china-launches-ambitious-sample-return-mission-to-the-moon/ landing planned for "on or around November 27th".

That would put it on the ground during the eclipse on the 30th. At its deepest, a little over 50% of the sun will be obscured from the target landing site. It would be cool to see before/during/after images of the landscape. At that obscuration I don't think there would be any noticable reddening of the illumination, though.

Posted by: Brian Swift Nov 25 2020, 08:24 PM

Solar panel video from data captured and decoded by folks in amateur DSN twitter.
https://twitter.com/r2x0t/status/1331630305854197760?s=20

Posted by: Explorer1 Nov 25 2020, 09:38 PM

Nice work for them! This is like the Luna 9 surface images being intercepted and decoded at Jodrell Bank Observatory in 1966, and ending up in the British papers shortly after.
I wonder if they can do the same for the landing, ascent and docking, if those are not carried live by Chinese media.

Posted by: kenny Nov 26 2020, 10:27 PM

Latest news from South China Morning Post (Hong Kong) , Nov. 26.

“ China’s…Chang’e-5 probe was “in good condition” on its way to retrieve lunar samples, the programme’s chief scientist said.

Chang’e-5 launched early on Tuesday morning and by Wednesday night had completed two orbital corrections during its 41-hour flight, having travelled 270,000km (167770.222 miles) from the Earth, Xinhua reported.

The programmed actions went as planned and all systems on Chang’e-5, as well as communications to the ground station, were in good condition, Xinhua said, showing positive signs for China’s third-phase of the lunar programme that aims to fetch 2kg (4.4 pounds) of moon rocks and return to Earth in the next three weeks.
If successful, the China National Space Administration (CNSA) will enter into the next phase – exploration focusing on the moon’s south pole and using future Chang’e missions to prepare for a research station. CNSA has previously said Chang’e-6 would retrieve a much larger sample from the lunar south pole, offering a 10kg load for international partners.

Wu said Chang’e-7 would analyse the landscape, material composition and environment of the south pole and Chang’e-8 would experiment with some “key technologies” on the moon. "

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3111530/chinas-plan-research-station-moon-gets-closer-success-each

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 26 2020, 11:01 PM

I think the '10 kg load for international partners' is an offer to carry up to 10 kg of instruments as international contributions to the payload. I don't know that the sample can be that much bigger. May be wrong...

Phil

Posted by: Huguet Nov 27 2020, 09:40 AM


Or instead of making pounds -> kg (4.4lb -> 2kg) the reporter made kg -> pounds conversion (4.4 -> 9.68). One possible explanation.

Posted by: nogal Nov 28 2020, 03:25 PM


Chang'e-5 has just successfully achieved an elliptic lunar orbit with a 17 minute burn which started at 12:58 UTC this Saturday.
Fernando

Source: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-11-28/China-s-Chang-e-5-lunar-probe-successfully-brakes-for-lunar-orbiting-VNegLaNEha/index.html

Posted by: kenny Nov 29 2020, 09:54 AM

The Xinhua news agency reports more precisely that the transit time from launch to lunar orbit insertion was 112 hours (4.67 days).

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-11/28/c_139549943.htm


Posted by: nogal Nov 29 2020, 07:19 PM


From CNSA http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n6758823/n6758838/c6810624/content.html using Google translation:

At 20:23 on November 29, Beijing time, [Ed. 12:23 UTC] the Chang'e-5 probe "brakes" again at the near-moon point, changing from an elliptical orbit around the moon to a near-circular orbit around the moon.
 
Later, the Chang'e-5 probe will choose an opportunity to separate the lander and ascender combination from the orbiter and returner combination. The lander and ascender combination will carry out a soft landing on the lunar front, and work such as automatic lunar surface sampling will be carried out as planned.

Fernando

Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Nov 29 2020, 09:51 PM

Here is the article in English:

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-11-29/China-s-Chang-e-5-lunar-probe-completes-final-brakes-prepares-to-land-VOPRQFUL1S/index.html

"The landing operation is expected in three days."

"The sampling work and the take-off of the ascender from the lunar surface need to be completed within 48 hours ..."

Posted by: Hungry4info Nov 30 2020, 03:53 AM

Chang'e 5 lander as seen from the orbiter. It's part of a video you can see here: https://twitter.com/rhZhao/status/1333242777971216384

 

Posted by: Greenish Nov 30 2020, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (Thorsten Denk @ Nov 23 2020, 03:33 AM) *
Possible Cháng'é 5 timeline (in UTC). From "Cosmic Penguin" on Twitter (scoll down a lot!).
https://twitter.com/Cosmic_Penguin/status/1330561964041388033
...


Continuing good info from that account, here are "all critical timings of Chang'e 5 around cis-lunar space" in UTC (use scroll to see it all, I don't know another way to post here as a table)

CODE
TLI trajectory correction maneuvers Nov. 24 14:06
Nov. 25 14:06
Nov. 27 13:06 (*)
LOI burns Nov. 28 13:06
Nov. 29 12:34
Lander separation Nov. 29 20:40
---(we are here, when it was posted)---
Lander orbit lowering burns Nov. 30 14:23
Nov. 30 18:22
Start of lander power descent Dec. 1 14:58
**LANDING ON LUNAR SURFACE** Dec. 1 15:13
Drilling of lunar sub-surface samples Dec. 1 17:15 - 19:45
Scooping of lunar surface samples Dec. 1 21:14 - Dec. 2 19:35
**LAUNCH OF LANDER ASCENT STAGE** Dec. 3 15:10
Ascent stage solar arrays deploy Dec. 3 15:27
Ascent stage phasing burns Dec. 3 22:05
Dec. 4 08:04
Dec. 4 19:46
Dec. 5 11:54
Start ascent stage-orbiter rendezvous Dec. 5 18:14
**ASCENT STAGE-ORBITER DOCKING** Dec. 5 21:40
Completion of sample transfer Dec. 5 22:01
Orbiter/Return Capsule separation
from ascent stage Dec. 6 04:35
Orbiter phasing burns 1-3 Nov. 30 23:59
Dec. 1 20:22
Dec. 2 14:42
Forward structure separation Dec. 2 19:46
Orbiter phasing burn 4 Dec. 3 03:35

(*) TCM-3 apparently was not needed.



Source: https://twitter.com/Cosmic_Penguin/status/1333308275018723328 & thread (from Chinese Social media).

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 30 2020, 04:29 PM

Repost of an old image of the landing site. The base is LRO images and Clementine false colour. the strip without colour is missing Clementine data (a few small patches of missing data elsewhere have been patched by cloning for aesthetic effect). The blue unit is the young basalt thought to be the most likely target. Mons Rumker at centre is red-brown like the highlands suggesting it is covered with a veneer of ejecta from surrounding large craters including possibly the Iridum crater.

Phil



Posted by: kenny Dec 1 2020, 09:06 AM

Am I correct to assume that Chang'e 5 is in a polar orbit, and will land on a northwards-travelling track, like Chang'e 3 ?
(whose landing site was several hundred km east of the suggested site for Chang'e 5).

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Dec 1 2020, 09:14 AM

No. Cháng'é-5 is in an orbit with about 45° inclination. It's nearly "grazing" the landing site. And the direction is west-east (astronautical, left-right as seen from Earth's northern hemisphere), this means opposite of the Apollos who wanted to land with the sun in the back.

Thorsten

Posted by: kenny Dec 1 2020, 10:12 AM

thank you Thorsten.
Unlike Apollo, an automatic craft does not need to worry about being dazzled by the sun in its eyes at pitch-over!

Posted by: Huguet Dec 1 2020, 01:14 PM

Chang'e-5 Landing on The Moon Live Feed:

https://live.bilibili.com/21686237
https://live.media.weibo.com/live/show?id=1022:232050178e94db3aa31d959c3e5cbabf451a9b

Landing planned for 15:13 UTC today.

 

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Dec 1 2020, 01:19 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO_PsBHPRxs

Posted by: kenny Dec 1 2020, 03:17 PM

Nothing happening on those links as far as I can see.
I don't imagine there is any difficulty for them to delay the landing by an orbit or two, if they need more time for technical check-out or whatever.

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Dec 1 2020, 03:18 PM

Seems to have been successful landing!
https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1333791545078673416

Posted by: ollopa Dec 1 2020, 03:47 PM

Oh to have a rover!!! This crater looks gorgeous! Multiple flow layers exposed?


Posted by: kymani76 Dec 1 2020, 04:38 PM



Map of the landing area with reported landing site indicated.

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 1 2020, 04:48 PM

Well, I've identified the landing site.
Lat: ~43.05680, Lon: ~-51.91648
(I have 13 of these images, but for everyone's benefit just posted a small selection).
Edit: the entirety of them are https://twitter.com/ThomasTarrants/status/1333824798770798603





Simulated view from the Chang'e 5 landing site toward the southwest.

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 1 2020, 05:18 PM

Image released from the lander looking down seconds before landing, and one right after landing.

 

Posted by: Marvin Dec 1 2020, 05:54 PM

Landing sequence on YouTube via Xinhua News Agency:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsDX5eZcmks


Posted by: Antdoghalo Dec 1 2020, 06:02 PM

Congratulations to the Chinese! A bright bit of news after Arecibo!
Here's hoping for a successful return of Lunar silicon-based compound goodness!

Posted by: Huguet Dec 1 2020, 06:03 PM

Today Moon New Population:

3 Stationary Bots
1 Rover Bot
1 Dead Bot
1 Temporary Bot

All chinese, waiting for new foreign brothers to join then. Anyone?

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 1 2020, 07:44 PM

drilling has started (?) - https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1333858151582588933

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 1 2020, 09:35 PM

Scrambling to catch up here. Thanks for all the great posts! (esp. Hungry4info). I was on Grandad duty, the only thing more important than a Moon landing.

Phil


Posted by: AndyG Dec 1 2020, 10:24 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 1 2020, 10:35 PM) *
I was on Grandad duty, the only thing more important than a Moon landing.


smile.gif Having just got my 15-month-old grand-daughter to dance to the Muse's Knights Of Cydonia, I think I'm accomplishing my part in this respect. Maybe she'll dance there one day?

Andy, and well done China.

Posted by: Explorer1 Dec 2 2020, 01:53 AM

Coverage on CGTN starting in a few minutes at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqGzUxfujbM

Hopefully we get the full landing movie and the surface images taken so far....

EDIT: They just played the full video of the landing, and what seems to be a surface panorama 15 minutes in (on a monitor behind the engineer being interviewed).

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 2 2020, 02:48 AM

I'm sure we'll get some better images soon but here's what I've managed to screenshot. These are apparently video.


 

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 2 2020, 03:15 AM

Transfer of material from the sample acquisition device on the end of the arm and depositing it into the sample return canister. After they completed this operation, they began moving the robotic arm back into a sampling posture. Perhaps we'll get a number of scoops.

Also they showed a video of the drilling. It's not as exciting but we basically see this drill come down and enter the surface.





 

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 2 2020, 03:22 AM

Horizon!

 

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 2 2020, 03:29 AM

Looks like they've completed another scoop, which if I'm interpreting the image correctly is the third scoop. Also, another horizon image of the Moon that looks like it's part of a panorama projection showing that mountain to the south-west.

Edit: I've attached an image of lunar surface material falling into the sample return canister.
Edit: They showed part of a panorama or a work area camera?


 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 2 2020, 03:51 AM

My hero! Thanks for all this.

Phil


Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 2 2020, 04:35 AM

Here's a video that shows many of the activities from the sampling.

https://twitter.com/jackzhuanglia/status/1333991519703822336

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 2 2020, 04:55 AM

A quick finder image sequence. The name of the hill, apparently just visible on the horizon in one view, is informal. Hills were formerly named from a nearby crater plus a Greek letter, and a few are still in use (Hansteen Alpha, for instance, and the only really official one, Hadley Delta), and those names are on the Apollo-era maps, but they are not official today (a mistake in my opinion).

Phil



Posted by: Paolo Dec 2 2020, 07:47 AM

QUOTE (Hungry4info @ Dec 2 2020, 04:22 AM) *
Horizon!


that boulder looks uncomfortably large and close

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 2 2020, 08:24 AM

It does, but I'm having a hard time finding it in the descent images, so it may be further away than it appears.

Phil

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 2 2020, 09:38 AM

I think it's the other way around. The camera is on the sampling device (we can see the hook mechanism on the left side -- it matches the design of the scoop as shown in the CGTN coverage). So it's probably not a telescopic camera. This image was probably taken very close to the ground and with the purpose monitoring the scooping of material. In that event, the large nearby rock is actually quite a bit smaller and nearer. I think I've identified it in one of the images. There's a "puck"/"hole" in the rock that is clearly visible in both of these images, and a number of other rocks (or pebbles rather) line up pretty well if we assume the image is taken by a camera just a few cm above the location of the scooping site.

 

Posted by: Paolo Dec 2 2020, 10:37 AM

clearly you are right! I've been fooled by the toddler's POV

Posted by: kenny Dec 2 2020, 12:17 PM

That pair of photos remind me of the early pictures from the first wholly successful landing on Mars (therefore excluding the Soviet Mars 3) by Viking 1, 44 years ago... Viking's famous first footpad photo and the rock Big Joe. But Chang'e's rock clearly isn't so big after after all...!

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 2 2020, 12:22 PM

On the official website of the CNSA (China National Space Administration) there is a short description of the course of the landing and sampling operations so far and further plans (with certain dates and times) in English - http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/english/n6465652/n6465653/c6810692/content.html

It shows that sampling and other operations on the surface take about 2 days, and about 2 kg of samples will arrive on Earth in mid-December.

I wanted to give some quotes from that description, but at the bottom of the page there is this annotation:
"Any one who wants to mirror or copy the information appeared here at this site should first consult the webmaster to get written permisson. Webmaster E-mail:webmaster@cnsa.gov.cn" !!!

Other CNSA sites:
http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n6758823/n6758838/c6810683/content.html are 2 (already known) landing pictures (quite large size)
http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n6758823/n6758838/index.html - CNSA news, in Chinese
http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/english/n6465652/n6465653/index.html - CNSA news in English

https://english.cctv.com/2020/12/02/ARTIMHb4PjeID04h8ujHJL7K201202.shtml?spm=C69523.PDoRdCIUTBov.EppbkEsPJWoH.1 is a fairly detailed description of the current and future operations (in English) on the CCTV website (constantly updated - I think so)

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 2 2020, 01:32 PM

panorama - https://twitter.com/rhZhao/status/1334079153423880193

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CihdxsRSe9By8O9UtHLWE8dG-Nq2JwWg/view is this picture in high resolution


 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 2 2020, 01:37 PM

https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4577741316489245?from=old_pc_videoshow (from 0:00 to 0:30 with commentary in Russian, but from 0:30 the same sequence without commentary),
https://s.weibo.com/weibo?q=%23%E5%AB%A6%E5%A8%A5%E4%BA%94%E5%8F%B7%E5%AE%8C%E6%88%90%E6%9C%88%E7%90%83%E9%92%BB%E5%8F%96%E9%87%87%E6%A0%B7%E5%B0%81%E8%A3%85%23&from=default and https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4577754780205089?from=old_pc_videoshow
are videos of drilling and sample loading

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 2 2020, 01:47 PM

https://s.weibo.com/weibo?q=%23%E5%AB%A6%E5%A8%A5%E4%BA%94%E5%8F%B7%E6%99%92%E5%B7%A5%E4%BD%9C%E7%85%A7%23&from=default and https://twitter.com/LaunchStuff/status/1334086150860976129:

 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 2 2020, 02:23 PM

https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4577668776001575?mid=4577669713238332 is a landing video and almost complete drilling and loading sequence

Two panoramas and sample loading moment - screenshots from this video:


 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 2 2020, 04:14 PM

Hungry4info: "I think it's the other way around.".

Brilliant! I wonder how long I would have taken to figure that out.

For some reason I can't connect to the Weibo links.

Phil

Posted by: Greenish Dec 2 2020, 05:08 PM

I don't think Mattias Malmer posts here much anymore? But since I know there are some ambitious folks here, in case it will save anyone else the work, he has done a very nice re-projection of the panorama:
https://twitter.com/3Dmattias/status/1334177714832601089 for full resolution


Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 2 2020, 05:25 PM

https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4577750162538522?from=old_pc_videoshow is the complete landing sequence in pretty good resolution (including time).

(to see large photos on weibo websites login is required sad.gif )

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 2 2020, 05:58 PM

I think these are some of the frames used to make the panorama. (Edit: Or zoom-in's of the panorama, some seams are visible in at least one of the images)


 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 2 2020, 06:30 PM

Other fragments of the "big panorama".

The larger stone is perhaps a bit vesicular.

You can also see the dust swept at the foot of the rocks by the ship's engines


 

Posted by: kymani76 Dec 2 2020, 06:32 PM




New map of yesterday's landing..I had a bit more time to elaborate

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 2 2020, 08:28 PM

I don't know if it is just my imagination, but I can see slight traces of the substrate layering:
- in the first photo - horizontally,
- in the second (next to the lander leg) - vertically in the photo (here the dust was partially blown away by the engines).

Or maybe these are just the effects of the specific configuration of „chiaroscuro”?

 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 2 2020, 08:29 PM

And something preventive against conspiracy theories wink.gif - the photo shows the ground in the shade of the stone. Theoretically there should be total darkness there (due to the lack of air to diffuse the light). But here the shaded area is slightly illuminated by the light reflected from the lander!


 

Posted by: nprev Dec 2 2020, 09:30 PM

Marcin600, good catch re conspiracy theory prevention; always most helpful to have on hand! smile.gif

Re the 'layering', I'd be surprised if that's anything but the effects of the landing rocket exhaust. Some work a few years ago regarding the Google XPrize lander competition (and if I recall correctly Phil was involved in something similar, maybe landing site preservation constraints?) showed that dust transport from exhaust plumes is incredibly effective on the Moon, as in lots of it going for tens or hundreds of meters depending on applied thrust.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 2 2020, 10:03 PM

Another Phil, this time Phil Metzger of the University of Central Florida, is the person who did that work on rocket exhaust effects on the Moon.

Here is a different version of a reprojected panorama:



And a further reprojection of that, with north at the top.



Phil

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 2 2020, 11:03 PM

Oh yes, conspiracy theories probably do more damage to people's heads than microbes...
The only layering of regolith could be caused by the successive covers of debris ejected from nearby craters. But you're probably right that it's just a blast effect...


I am posting my modification of https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4577668776001575?mid=4577669713238332 - pouring collected lunar soil samples.
I made the frames brighter, contrasted them a bit, and removed the colors due to the TV's unnatural blue glow.
It's not very clear and quite coarse, but I think it's interesting

Edit: I add the same video in a larger frame - mp4

 

 d1e.mp4 ( 282.23K ) : 240
 

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 2 2020, 11:22 PM

Here's the full resolution panorama. (15000 x 7947)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CihdxsRSe9By8O9UtHLWE8dG-Nq2JwWg/view

Posted by: machi Dec 3 2020, 12:25 AM

Horizontal panorama with averaged white balance and removed mosaicking artifacts.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/109586958@N03/50673932587/

Posted by: nprev Dec 3 2020, 12:46 AM

Niiiice, Machi!!!! ohmy.gif

Phil, apologies for the Philconfusion. smile.gif

Posted by: machi Dec 3 2020, 12:53 AM

Thanks Nick!

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 3 2020, 02:24 AM

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/3qKItsZIBRg43uwYxBeqsQ

This links to an article about the sampling with an image of the sampling area with three scoop locations.

Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 3 2020, 03:49 AM

http://www.xinhuanet.com/2020-12/03/c_1126816223.htm

This shows two images of the sampling site. A comparison shows there have been several scoops at the right-hand site.

Phil

Posted by: Shan Dec 3 2020, 04:45 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 2 2020, 10:25 AM) *
A quick finder image sequence. The name of the hill, apparently just visible on the horizon in one view, is informal. Hills were formerly named from a nearby crater plus a Greek letter, and a few are still in use (Hansteen Alpha, for instance, and the only really official one, Hadley Delta), and those names are on the Apollo-era maps, but they are not official today (a mistake in my opinion).

Phil




The hill is 20km away and at a height of 500m from the surface but they are still visible.. (After seeing these images I believe Luna9 might be 30 ~ 40 kms away from Planitia Descensus & the hills seen on it might be very well Planitia Descensus itself)

now working on to enhance the landing image from LROC

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 3 2020, 05:27 AM

I have been looking at these scooping images and videos. This composite shows the four steps I have seen so far. The base image is the big panorama, and the top image shows the surface before any contact. There are probably several scoops at each of the later sites. There were supposed to be 15 scoops in total, so i hope we will eventually get a view of each one.

Phil


Posted by: Shan Dec 3 2020, 06:04 AM

QUOTE (kymani76 @ Dec 3 2020, 12:02 AM) *



New map of yesterday's landing..I had a bit more time to elaborate


Spot on! I also have independently verified it from the CNSA's video over here https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1334083290018574337

https://quickmap.lroc.asu.edu/query?extent=-51.9297122,43.0522223,-51.9052591,43.064655&proj=16&features=-51.91696952,43.05715578,-51.91686399,43.05674685,-51.91641549,43.05668090,-51.91646826,43.05724812,-51.91696952,43.05715578&selected=0&layers=NrBsFYBoAZIRnpEBmZcAsjYIHYFcAbAyAbwF8BdC0yioA

Time to enhance those 1 m/pix resolution images


 

Posted by: neo56 Dec 3 2020, 08:14 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 2 2020, 11:03 PM) *
Here is a different version of a reprojected panorama:

I took the liberty of scaling the equirectangular projection of the panorama to put it on RoundMe (VR website):
https://roundme.com/tour/655662/view/2075519/

If you have a larger version of the equirectangular projection, I could obtain a better result.

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 3 2020, 12:10 PM

From CNSA (China National Space Administration) site - http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n6758823/n6758838/c6810708/content.html (GoogleTranslate):

Release Date: December 03, 2020

At 22:00 on December 2, after about 19 hours of lunar surface work, the lunar exploration project Chang'e-5 probe successfully completed the automatic sampling of the lunar surface, and the samples were packaged and stored in the storage device carried by the ascender in a predetermined form.

During the sampling and packaging process, scientific and technical personnel simulated the geographic model of the sampling area according to the data returned by the detector in the ground laboratory and simulated sampling throughout the entire process, providing an important basis for sampling decision-making and operation of each link. The lunar soil structure detector and other payloads configured by the lander are working normally, and scientific detection is carried out as planned, and sampling information support is provided...

... In order to ensure that the lunar sample is kept vacuum-tight and not affected by the external environment during the return to the Earth, the probe has sealed the sample on the Moon..."


My comments:
Beijing Time (China Standard Time) was probably reported, so sampling has ended at 14:00 on December 2 UTC.
Not a single word about further plans.
The photo attached to the news shows only 3 sampling sites. Were there more of them?

 

Posted by: Shan Dec 3 2020, 01:30 PM

Enhanced LRO image M1219279265LE with Chang'e5 Lander location marked inside (None of the images were lesser than 1 m resolution..all of them were in the range of 1 to 1.5 m/pixel which makes it difficult)

LRO is passing through the area today, I hope they would be able to see the Lander!

 

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Dec 3 2020, 01:35 PM

Maybe they catch the launch?
(Just kidding...)

Thorsten

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 3 2020, 02:03 PM

According to this post by Andrew Jones - https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1334413175584944128

liftoff is expected ~15:10 UTC/10:10 am EST today. (I don't know the source of this information)

Posted by: Huguet Dec 3 2020, 03:23 PM

Positive Launch!!!

Crazy time in shadow,.. to return solid... crazy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uFtjQsxwjk
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnK9WmNQuZmtHsPNKrlU0Aw

Thanks RocketGyan for all the emotion... these LIVE graphics of launching,... surreal.. congratulations China for the launch..

Launching video from the lander.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1334527749646659588


 

Posted by: Explorer1 Dec 3 2020, 04:29 PM

Amazing footage here! https://twitter.com/LaunchStuff/status/1334526325319749632
Solar panels deployed as well....

Descent stage is obviously still working; maybe it can do a quick hop with remaining fuel before nightfall? The radar and spectrometer could collect data from a second site....

Posted by: kenny Dec 3 2020, 04:33 PM

Just to clarify -- I guess that is a view upwards from the descent stage. The ascent stage's circular engine bell is clearly visible because the rocket exhaust is transparent, uncolored, and invisible. The bright flare on the right is caused by the ascent stage engine plume impacting on part of the structure of the descent stage. That is my guess...

Posted by: Thorsten Denk Dec 3 2020, 04:52 PM

Your guess is correct. smile.gif

Thorsten

Posted by: kenny Dec 3 2020, 05:59 PM

Or the bright flare is the sun, revealed when the ascent stage no longer blocks the view.
The sun should be high in the sky at that lunar location right now.

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 3 2020, 09:02 PM

What you can see in the video is an ascending module - shots taken from the camera on the lander.

In the lower left corner you can also see a fragment of the lander's devices (perhaps it is, among others a camera that was supposed to film the take-off from a different perspective (?) - either these shots have not been presented yet, or the camera has not worked - that's just my guess).

The bright glow on the right is the sun for me. In the attached fragment of the video, nothing is happening to it from 0:7 s (so it's the constant glow of the sun).

 

 Chang__e_5_takes_off_from_moon.mp4 ( 1.19MB ) : 373
 

Posted by: kenny Dec 3 2020, 10:29 PM

China space watcher Andrew Jones has reported that the Chang'e-5 ascent vehicle with its cargo of Moon samples safely reached lunar orbit, some hours ago.

The ascent vehicle will now spend around two days in lunar orbit before it and the Chang'e-5 orbiter rendezvous and make a final approach for docking. The close rendezvous is expected to start about 18:10 UTC Saturday, with docking about 3.5 hours later around 21:40 UTC.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 3 2020, 10:52 PM

"In the lower left corner you can also see a fragment of the lander's devices"

I think it is the device which delivered the drill sample to the container in the ascent stage.

I have seen several suggestions that the lander might hop to a new location. I had seen somewhere that the flight control systems were on the ascent stage, and were used both during descent and ascent (rather than having two separate systems). If that's correct the lander can't fly again.

I do hope we will see other images taken before liftoff including a final survey of the sampling work area to show everything that was done there. It would be nice to see the terrain behind the lander (north of it) but I don't know if there was a suitable camera for that.

Phil

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 3 2020, 11:01 PM

It was a big and colorful TV show on the Moon! (a little too colorful maybe)
However, one but fundamental question remains: where is the flag? wink.gif
(sorry, but I couldn't refrain)

Edit: maybe on the north side???

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 4 2020, 12:27 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 3 2020, 11:52 PM) *
I do hope we will see other images taken before liftoff including a final survey of the sampling work area to show everything that was done there. It would be nice to see the terrain behind the lander (north of it) but I don't know if there was a suitable camera for that.

Phil


I think we'll only see them if they're pretty enough to show on TV or in the press, unfortunately. It's easy to forget that CNSA is not NASA sad.gif

Posted by: djellison Dec 4 2020, 01:22 AM

My guess is that the ascent stage blocked the view on the other side of the lander - and now it's gone, they might be able to do a 360 assuming everything's still healthy onboard after the impact of the ascent stage engine plume impinging on it.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 4 2020, 01:55 AM

Oh well, if we can't see behind the lander, let's look under the lander.

This is one of the descent frames which was released in a reasonably good resolution. I have turned it so north is approximately at the top. I superimposed the footpad on it from the big mosaic. Then I took an image of the drill in the ground and figured out where it is in the descent image. So the drilled spot is at the left end of the visible drill tube in that image.

Phil


Posted by: Explorer1 Dec 4 2020, 02:33 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 3 2020, 08:22 PM) *
My guess is that the ascent stage blocked the view on the other side of the lander - and now it's gone, they might be able to do a 360 assuming everything's still healthy onboard after the impact of the ascent stage engine plume impinging on it.

The sampling arm has a camera on it like Insight, so it should be possible to do a panorama, just need to stitch out the portion of the field being blocked by the end of the scoop.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 4 2020, 03:28 AM

Here's hoping! Meanwhile, looking under the lander again, as far as I can figure out at the moment this is where the other footpads should be. Does anyone have a diagram of the lander with dimensions?

Phil


Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 4 2020, 03:57 AM

QUOTE ("Phil Stooke")
Does anyone have a diagram of the lander with dimensions?

I do have this, hopefully it helps:

 

Posted by: John Moore Dec 4 2020, 07:42 AM

Given Hungry4info's dimensional image, it should be possible to calibrate all the other parts (solar panel size, lander legs, ascender...etc.,).

John

Posted by: Huguet Dec 4 2020, 12:12 PM

And now,...

Chang'e-5 is the first Chinese Lander to fly the Flag...


 

Posted by: neo56 Dec 4 2020, 01:23 PM

A second panorama has been made, showing the arm, the flag and trenches where samples were collected.



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E0v928RHiBnkwqIrHAndd346Ub61bzoX/view

I made an animation to compare 1st and 2nd panoramas. There is some difference in the projection setup.


Posted by: kenny Dec 4 2020, 02:23 PM

And a fascinating big crater behind the flag....

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 4 2020, 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Huguet @ Dec 4 2020, 01:12 PM) *
And now,...

Chang'e-5 is the first Chinese Lander to fly the Flag...

Yeah, I've been waiting for this for so long! wink.gif
Only now is the mission on the surface of the Moon complete and I can sleep peacefully...

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 4 2020, 04:56 PM

Trenches from "second panorama"

Edit: And my rough attempt to remove shadows (but there are quite a lot „artificial” pixels along the shadow borders)

 

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 4 2020, 07:32 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Nov 30 2020, 11:29 AM) *
Repost of an old image of the landing site. The base is LRO images and Clementine false colour. the strip without colour is missing Clementine data (a few small patches of missing data elsewhere have been patched by cloning for aesthetic effect). The blue unit is the young basalt thought to be the most likely target. Mons Rumker at centre is red-brown like the highlands suggesting it is covered with a veneer of ejecta from surrounding large craters including possibly the Iridum crater.

Phil




Mons Rumker is a volcanic construct thought to post-date the Mare basalt.
Do we have a location of the Chang'e 5 landing site relative to Mons Rumker, or an
accurate Lat-Long of the site? All I've found are images from the descent camera
related to earlier pre-landing LROC imagery.

--Bill

Posted by: Huguet Dec 4 2020, 08:15 PM

QUOTE (Marcin600 @ Dec 4 2020, 01:27 PM) *
Yeah, I've been waiting for this for so long! wink.gif
Only now is the mission on the surface of the Moon complete and I can sleep peacefully...


Its interesting to follow the importance givem to Flags in Space, the term GeoPolitics will achieve a new height, SpacePolitics...

Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Dec 4 2020, 09:10 PM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 4 2020, 01:32 PM) *
Mons Rumker is a volcanic construct thought to post-date the Mare basalt.
Do we have a location of the Chang'e 5 landing site relative to Mons Rumker, or an
accurate Lat-Long of the site?
--Bill


Yeah, its at about 43.06 N and 51.9 W. According to Hungry4Info on a previous post (page 10) it is more accurately at 43.05680 and 51.91648

Using LROC Quickmap and my best guess as to where Rumker Mons starts, I get about 140.7 km to the WSW.

You sure about Mons Rumker post dating the local Maria? I haven't heard that. Rumker seems pretty cratered, even accounting for the fact that some of those craters would be volcanic.

On an aside I've noticed that where the landing legs and the scoop dug in, the soil there seems to be unusually gravelly. That's a good thing. Plenty of small rocks and pebbles to scoop up.


Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 4 2020, 10:12 PM

Bill - see this open access paper about the region:

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1029/2018JE005595%4010.1002/%28ISSN%292169-9100.SSERVI17


Especially Figure 11 which gives ages based on crater counts. Mons Rumker is the oldest feature in the area. The basalts at the landing site are the youngest in the area and among the youngest on the Moon.

See post 164 in this thread for a landing site locator, and from the first panel you should be able to find the site on other maps.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 4 2020, 10:17 PM

My current sampling sequence image. I don't expect anything after the last one, but there may be intermediate versions I can insert as we get more images (and of course, better quality images of the earlier sites).

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 4 2020, 10:34 PM

http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/posts/1172

Quick work! LRO views CE5.

Phil

Posted by: kymani76 Dec 4 2020, 10:59 PM



An update to my yesterday's "comic book" map of the landing with some corrections. Coordinates are from LRO Quickmap position, no yet updated to values derived from new LROC image.

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 5 2020, 01:49 AM

Close-up of the sampling arm from the "second panorama".

As it is equipped with two different digging heads (in case of hitting a substrate of various degrees of hardness), I think that both of them have been tried. So perhaps two different types can be distinguished among the six trenches in the pictures (?)

 

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 5 2020, 04:18 AM

Thanks, Phil. That paper will be helpful. China is advancing the exploration or the Moon with their lander missions. They may well be the science leaders in this century.
This sample-return strategy is a brilliant innovation to confirm what the remote sensing suggests. It will be interesting to see what the analyses of this sample show.

--Bill

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 5 2020, 07:34 AM

Marcin600: "As it is equipped with two different digging heads (in case of hitting a substrate of various degrees of hardness), I think that both of them have been tried. So perhaps two different types can be distinguished among the six trenches in the pictures (?) "

In my composite of sampling events, I think '1' is the rotating sampler trench and the other markings are from the shovel-type scoop. but looking closely there seem to be other rotating sampler trenches among the scoop trenches... I'm not being very clear but I hope you get what I mean.

Phil

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 5 2020, 02:02 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 5 2020, 08:34 AM) *
Marcin600: "As it is equipped with two different digging heads (in case of hitting a substrate of various degrees of hardness), I think that both of them have been tried. So perhaps two different types can be distinguished among the six trenches in the pictures (?) "

In my composite of sampling events, I think '1' is the rotating sampler trench and the other markings are from the shovel-type scoop. but looking closely there seem to be other rotating sampler trenches among the scoop trenches... I'm not being very clear but I hope you get what I mean.

Phil


Got it, Phil. Thanks for the clarification.
Unfortunately, I don't have such a "trained eye" as you to notice these additional rotating sampler trenches among the scoop trenches sad.gif

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 5 2020, 04:42 PM

I haven't noticed this before, but in this image (from http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n6758823/n6758838/c6810708/content.html) you can see lunar soil samples on the "shovel":


 

Posted by: kenny Dec 5 2020, 04:52 PM

The flag "planted" on the Moon by Chang'e 5 is, as it appears to closer scrutiny of photo, a little "pop-up" device.
An L-shaped support holds a semi-rigid flag.

Animation on this post shows how it works, complete with shaky reverberations.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-12-05/Raising-a-flag-on-the-moon-is-much-harder-than-you-think-VYPYZ2eVby/index.html

Posted by: nogal Dec 5 2020, 05:12 PM


Looking at the landing sites of the Chang'e missions it struck me they're all in an area close to the center of a triangle defined by three small craters...



I know there are maaany craters on the Moon but ... could this be a characteristic of the landing algorithm?
Fernando

Posted by: threadworm Dec 5 2020, 05:48 PM

I lurk more than I post, but I wanted to congratulate everyone here on some of the excellent sleuthing and reporting on this mission - it's been very illuminating!

I wanted to add something that was raised by a rebuttal video to a conspiracy theorist about the mission. The original claim was pointless and irrelevant, but the rebuttal pointed out the movement of some of the rocks during the landing sequence as they are disturbed by the descent engine. I did a quick overlay animation from a couple of the available frames to show the surface disturbance - apologies if anyone else has already mentioned it!



Posted by: kenny Dec 5 2020, 06:10 PM

Chang'e 5 lunar orbit docking in progress, according to China space watcher "Rocket Gyan".

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 5 2020, 09:46 PM

Andrew Jones reports success!

Phil

Posted by: kenny Dec 5 2020, 10:05 PM

Fantastic result! The first lunar lift-off in 44 years, followed by the first-ever automatic (uncrewed) docking beyond Earth orbit.
The last docking in lunar orbit was 48 years ago this month, during Apollo 17, but that was between two manned craft.
All kudos to China! Surely the next steps homewards will be a little easier...

Posted by: kenny Dec 5 2020, 10:11 PM

And the lunar samples have been transferred to the Earth return vehicle...

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-12/06/c_139566524.htm

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 5 2020, 11:58 PM

And from a related story in Kenny's Flag Raising link:

The Docking

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-12-06/China-completes-first-spacecraft-rendezvous-docking-in-lunar-orbit-VZu6dvjEpq/index.html

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 6 2020, 12:07 AM

Note that in the above link, the top picture shows the spacecraft with the Moon in the background. The feature shown on the landscape is Sinus Iridium (Bay of Rainbows), an Iconic lunar feature. I don't know if this is an actual photo or if it was "assembled" from other photos, but it is very evocative.

--Bill

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 6 2020, 12:18 AM

Chang'e 5 ascent module as seen from the return craft, with Earth in the background.

 

Posted by: fredk Dec 6 2020, 12:33 AM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Dec 6 2020, 01:07 AM) *
I don't know if this is an actual photo or if it was "assembled" from other photos, but it is very evocative.

The latter. It looks like a fully simulated view. The stars of Perseus in the background would be far too faint to show up with the same exposure as the spacecraft.

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 6 2020, 01:13 AM

Here's a video of rendezvous, docking, and sample transfer.
https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1335388041024716800

Another video showing more of the rendezvous, closer to the docking.
https://twitter.com/Eurekablog/status/1335388391031123969

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 6 2020, 06:01 AM

Marcin600: "Got it, Phil. Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, I don't have such a "trained eye" as you to notice these additional rotating sampler trenches among the scoop trenches"

This (red rectangles) is my guess as to which markings were made by the rotary sampling device, with all the rest made by the shovel.

Phil



Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 6 2020, 07:21 AM

QUOTE
CNSA announced that the ascent vehicle and the service module separated successfully at 0435 UTC. The SM will "select the optimal time" (择机) to return to Earth.

https://twitter.com/Yeqzids/status/1335457279076757505

Posted by: kenny Dec 6 2020, 08:31 AM

Video of the docking and sample transfer to the Earth return vehicle, from RocketGyam.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_tOl_-4Dfo&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0onH3u3karxOMYYTvyZbHkO1i31S-f3pRJrfhAUQ5b27Q-bE1AANDtRnE


Posted by: threadworm Dec 6 2020, 09:05 AM

Remarkable docking footage - Jupiter and Saturn are tantalisingly just off screen to the left

https://twitter.com/LaunchStuff/status/1335437600912515074

The undocking is a thing of beauty

https://twitter.com/LaunchStuff/status/1335507557100773376

Posted by: neo56 Dec 6 2020, 09:06 AM

https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1335506905565945856?s=20

Posted by: threadworm Dec 6 2020, 11:05 AM

AmI right in thinking the crater in the background is Albategnius?


Posted by: kenny Dec 6 2020, 11:40 AM

Yes, Threadworm, I was just about to post the same. Ptolemaeus and Alphonsus further back.

Posted by: kenny Dec 6 2020, 11:47 AM


viewing direction is north-west -- Albategnius on R with central peak and smaller crater Klein carved into the rim.
Albategnius is 130km in diameter.

 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 6 2020, 12:52 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 6 2020, 07:01 AM) *
This (red rectangles) is my guess as to which markings were made by the rotary sampling device, with all the rest made by the shovel.

Phil




I understand these are the ditches with a smooth bottom caused by a rotating tool. Earlier, I imagined that they would "drill" vertically with this head (I know the real drill is a separate tool), and here it looks like the rotary head was running almost horizontally. Am I right?

Marcin

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 6 2020, 08:39 PM

Take a look at this video at 57:06. They show exactly how the scooping works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaQjDu0U5CA

Posted by: MahFL Dec 7 2020, 12:41 AM

Ah, was wondering how the scoops worked, they looked like thick poles on the Moon.

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 7 2020, 02:17 AM

Thanks for the link!
Interesting but quite complex mechanism (lots of moving parts and movements). Now I know how the shovel works! (animated gif)

Unfortunately, there is no simulation or video of the operation of the rotating head - so I still do not know what its working position is (vertical or horizontal)... sad.gif
But I suppose it's vertical(???). I also did not know that this head has something like "rotary knives"! (picture)


 

Posted by: fredk Dec 7 2020, 02:32 AM

QUOTE (threadworm @ Dec 6 2020, 10:05 AM) *
Remarkable docking footage - Jupiter and Saturn are tantalisingly just off screen to the left

Though they would be completely invisible when exposing on the sunlit spacecraft.

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 7 2020, 02:59 AM

Another interesting solution is the transport of samples from the drill to the container - from what I understand it is a very long, flexible tube-rope!



 

Posted by: djellison Dec 7 2020, 03:41 AM

That's pretty similar to what they did with the USSR Luna missions in the '70s.

https://i0.wp.com/www.drewexmachina.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Luna_24_sample.jpg

Posted by: JRehling Dec 7 2020, 05:37 AM

re: Jupiter, the visibility of a small "point" object is in large part determined by whether or not it fills the area of a pixel or not. The surface brightness of Jupiter is about a quarter that of the full Moon, and brighter than that of the Moon near the terminator. If a pixel is filled by Jupiter then that pixel should be readily visible vs. the black of space. If Jupiter fills only, say, 1/10th of a pixel, then it certainly won't. So magnification is a key factor in making Jupiter visible in the background.

Posted by: fredk Dec 7 2020, 05:48 AM

Well, judging from the size of the Earth in that video Jupiter would cover a very tiny fraction of a pixel.

Posted by: Paolo Dec 7 2020, 01:36 PM

QUOTE (Marcin600 @ Dec 7 2020, 03:59 AM) *
Another interesting solution is the transport of samples from the drill to the container - from what I understand it is a very long, flexible tube-rope!


it's explained in this paper
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8607979

Posted by: Paolo Dec 7 2020, 01:46 PM

and the scoop is described in detail (but alas in Chinese) in this paper:
http://zgkj.cast.cn/EN/10.16708/j.cnki.1000-758X.2018.0067

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 7 2020, 07:57 PM

QUOTE (Paolo @ Dec 7 2020, 02:46 PM) *
and the scoop is described in detail (but alas in Chinese) in this paper:
http://zgkj.cast.cn/EN/10.16708/j.cnki.1000-758X.2018.0067


Paolo, thank you for the link to the article on drill sampling. It explains a lot smile.gif
But I cannot open the second article about the scoop. I get a download error every time. Is there any other source?

Posted by: Paolo Dec 7 2020, 08:29 PM

QUOTE (Marcin600 @ Dec 7 2020, 08:57 PM) *
Is there any other source?


it works for me, but the site is often shaky and you may need to retry later.
otherwise you can try here http://zgkj.cast.cn/EN/abstract/abstract11062.shtml
I don't know if it would be ok to post the paper here

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 8 2020, 12:19 AM

Despite many attempts, it does not work for me (only abstract). Maybe I'll try in a while...

Edit: And it finally worked! Thanks a lot! smile.gif


Oh, so the same sampler’s head can be used "for digging up the lunar regolith" - just like in the animated gif posted by me; or in the "upside down" position - "under working mode of shovel” !
This probably complicates the case of the tool marks on the Moon - increase them to 3 types!


Edit2
My drawing based on: JIANG Shuiqing, LIU Rongkai, LIN Yuncheng, MA Ruqi, LIU Bin, LIU Tianxi, 2019.


 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 8 2020, 08:03 AM

This was posted on Weibo about an hour before I am posting this:

Golden ten data
32 minutes ago from Xiaomi 9
[ #Chang’e五号升器控落月# ] The reporter learned from the National Space Administration that at 6:59 on December 8, the Chang’e 5’s ascender was de-orbited in accordance with ground instructions and landed on the moon at around 7:30. A planned landing point near 0 degrees longitude and 30 degrees south latitude. Experts from the National Space Administration's Lunar Exploration and Space Engineering Center said that the Chang'e-5 ascender has successfully completed its mission. The controlled deorbiting and landing of the moon can prevent it from becoming space junk and avoid affecting the subsequent lunar exploration missions of the international community. This is China's responsibility. Major powers make important commitments to mankind's peaceful exploration and use of space. (Voice of China) #嫦娥五号#

There were rumours earlier without good sources, but this seems more reliable. For 'landing' read impact.

Phil

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 8 2020, 06:17 PM

I have updated my moon sites map with the new locations.

Phil


Posted by: fredk Dec 8 2020, 07:03 PM

Thanks, Phil, that's a very handy map. Do we get extra points for identifying where the background border image is? laugh.gif

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 8 2020, 07:28 PM

Not only extra points, I will buy you a Timbit.

Phil

Posted by: tolis Dec 12 2020, 12:15 PM

Does anyone know when is Trans-Earth Injection supposed to take place?

Posted by: PaulH51 Dec 12 2020, 12:29 PM

QUOTE (tolis @ Dec 12 2020, 08:15 PM) *
Does anyone know when is Trans-Earth Injection supposed to take place?

You might want to follow this guy posting on Twitter
https://twitter.com/coastal8049/status/1337651294148861954

Posted by: nogal Dec 12 2020, 12:30 PM

Chang'e-5 has raised its lunar orbit on 1:54 UTC 12/12/2020 in preparation for an Earth-transfer trajectory:
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-12-12/Chang-e-5-orbiter-returner-completes-orbital-maneuver-W9Nl2swMlG/index.html
ESA has said they will support the return on December 15 but the news above mentions a 4,5 days transfer time.
Fernando

Posted by: kenny Dec 12 2020, 10:37 PM

The Hong Kong newspaper South China Morning Post says....

After spending 6 days orbiting the moon, the combined orbiter and return vehicles successfully changed course from a near-circular orbit to an elliptical orbit on Saturday, according to Chinese state news agency Xinhua.
(A forthcoming) second alternation is expected to allow the spacecraft to break free from the moon’s pull and set it on a path towards earth. Chang’e 5 is expected to land in Inner Mongolia some time between Tuesday and Thursday.

This report also says a telecoms glitch caused an interruption to planned video of the lunar lift-off.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3113717/chinas-change-5-moon-mission-takes-another-step-closer-earth

Posted by: marsbug Dec 13 2020, 05:41 PM

I've seen the video of the lift-off from the descent stage, and the video from the ascender of the docking. Does that mean the glitch occurred in between, or was the descent stage using its own channel?

Posted by: tolis Dec 13 2020, 07:14 PM

QUOTE (marsbug @ Dec 13 2020, 05:41 PM) *
I've seen the video of the lift-off from the descent stage, and the video from the ascender of the docking. Does that mean the glitch occurred in between, or was the descent stage using its own channel?


A wild guess on my part, but perhaps it was intended to capture video footage from the ascent stage looking down towards the lander.

Posted by: kenny Dec 13 2020, 07:54 PM

That was my guess too... same as Tolis.
We got good video from the descent stage of the ascent stage rising and disappearing into a black sky. Didn't seem to be more we could have expected from that angle.
But there was nothing from the ascent stage looking down, which was the viewpoint adopted during the Apollo lift-offs. That would have provided higher res coverage of the lunar surface in new areas not seen in detail during the descent.

Posted by: nogal Dec 13 2020, 09:46 PM

Chang'e-5 is now returning to Earth.

Source: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-12-13/Chang-e-5-orbiter-returner-makes-2nd-orbital-maneuver-Wbs0kBVY5i/index.htmlhttps://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-12-13/Chang-e-5-orbiter-returner-makes-2nd-orbital-maneuver-Wbs0kBVY5i/index.html
EDIT:First mid-course correction:
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-12-14/Chang-e-5-orbiter-returner-conducts-orbital-correction-on-way-back-Wd5oceMjzq/index.html

Posted by: John Whitehead Dec 14 2020, 11:57 PM

QUOTE (kenny @ Dec 13 2020, 08:54 PM) *
there was nothing from the ascent stage looking down

Presumably the lunar ascent vehicle had the tightest mass budget of all the mission pieces, which would have constrained the size and reliability of whatever might have been included for imaging and communications.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 15 2020, 03:15 AM

I have been looking at distant features in the Chang'e 5 panorama. Between these two images I have covered the ones I can identify. All designations are informal including the big hill name, which was on Apollo-era maps but has been dropped. Chang'e 5 images courtesy of CNSA/CLEP. LRO images from NASA and Arizona State University.

Phil


Posted by: kenny Dec 15 2020, 04:33 PM

Currently sub-zero and snowy at Siziwang (Dorbod) county, the area in Inner Mongolia where the Chang'e-5 reentry capsule is expected to land tomorrow (about 17:32 to 18:07 UTC Dec. 16), which will be around midnight local tme.

Info from Andrew Jones and some photos of preparations here:

https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1338801123583537152

Posted by: kenny Dec 16 2020, 05:27 PM


Various commentators have stated the Chang'e-5 orbiter performed a trajectory correction manoeuvre at 01:15 UTC today, with an 8 second engine firing. Reentry capsule was expected to separate 5,000 km from Earth and reentry/landing between 1732-1807 UTC , so in a few minutes' time. Awaiting live stream of descent capsule fireball.

Posted by: kenny Dec 16 2020, 05:32 PM

ESA states that its Maspalomas & Kourou stations are no longer tracking Chang’e 5.
As expected, the spacecraft is no longer visible to the stations, and "our involvement with this exciting mission is complete."

" Landing is expected soon. Best of luck #ChangE! We’re looking forward to welcoming you home ".

Posted by: kenny Dec 16 2020, 05:38 PM

first radio blackkout happened as expected.

livestream in chinese here...https://live.bilibili.com/21686237?from=search&seid=6859508232062410819

Posted by: kenny Dec 16 2020, 05:46 PM

Reports saying it has landed successfully, but not yet located.

Landing comfirmed several times now. But vehicles will take 1-2 hours to reach the site in the dark with blowing snow. A helicopter has also set off.

Posted by: kenny Dec 16 2020, 06:54 PM

Capsule landed in one piece, and recovery teams have arrived .
Many congratulations to China on the completion of an extraordinarily complex mission....






Posted by: nprev Dec 16 2020, 08:02 PM

Incredible technical achievement (several, in fact), and major congratulations to them!

Thanks for the updates, Kenny! smile.gif

Posted by: Hungry4info Dec 16 2020, 10:12 PM

On this forum on 24 Oct 2007, user ustrax http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=3105&view=findpost&p=102668 the following comment shortly after Chang'e 1 entered lunar orbit:

QUOTE
Why do I have this funny feeling that this is just the beginning of something extraordinary?... smile.gif


Well here we are. First lunar sample return since 1976. Huge congratulations to the People's Republic.

Posted by: JRehling Dec 16 2020, 10:28 PM

Congratulations to the team.

I have had an ongoing quest to photograph Mons Rümker in good detail, which makes this mission a bit more relatable in a personal sense.

I have read conflicting things about whether or not samples collected by Apollo have remained pristine since their collection. In the one case, this new sample may represent an opportunity for truly original science regardless of the collection site. In any case, it's a remarkable technical achievement.

Posted by: Bill Harris Dec 17 2020, 04:13 AM

The Apollo samples were specifically targeted to be the oldest rocks. These new samples are younger, perhaps 1 billion years.

The next samples from the South Polar region are looking for water, which is the newest Lunar quest.

--Bill

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 17 2020, 11:00 PM

Sorry, Bill, but I must take issue with your assertion that Apollo samples were targeted to be the oldest rocks. Only for Apollos 16 and 17 was there a desire to sample pre-Imbrian rocks (as well as an expectation of young volcanics at Taurus-Littrow which didn't happen as expected).

Apollo 11 was not targeted for any particular age of material, just the smoothest spot. Apollo 12 was then targeted for a younger mare unit as well as its pinpoint target, Surveyor 3. Next Apollos 14 and 15 were targeted at ejecta and massifs of the Imbrium basin to establish its age. Then those last two missions came in looking for older highlands and a pre-Imbrian (i.e Nectarian) basin rim. So really there was quite a mix of targets. Don Wilhelms' book To a Rocky Moon gives an excellent description of the site selection and geological planning. He was disappointed that Apollo 12 went to Surveyor 3 rather than Surveyor 1, which would have been a still younger mare surface, but the Copernicus ray at Surveyor 3 tipped the balance (plus better backup site options).

Undeniably, though, these new samples from Chang'e 5 will be of enormous value and significantly different from anything we had before.

Phil

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 18 2020, 05:07 AM

Coming back to sampling on the Moon: here is a fragment of XinhuaVideo - the moment of digging (quite clearly visible)

Edit: and the next stage of digging - right next to the first trench (from another video, with slightly better quality)

 digging.mp4 ( 530.72K ) : 556
 digging_2.mp4 ( 461.76K ) : 470
 

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 18 2020, 07:40 AM

Very nice! These two operations are what I showed as 1 and 2 in that picture I posted earlier with 6 stages of sampling. But looking at this carefully, if you compare the end of video 1 with the start of video 2, there's been some action between them. That was presumably the second sampling device which is pushed into the regolith to scoop it up. Somewhere I saw that there had been 13 sampling events (15 planned but the last 2 not needed).

Phil

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 19 2020, 10:57 PM

from Chinese TV: capsule landing

 capsule_landing.mp4 ( 1.61MB ) : 388
 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 19 2020, 10:59 PM

deployment of the parachute

 parachute_deployment.mp4 ( 2.66MB ) : 382
 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 19 2020, 11:06 PM

entry of the capsule into the atmosphere

 capsule_entry.mp4 ( 2.31MB ) : 389
 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 19 2020, 11:12 PM

docking in orbit around the Moon

 docking_1.mp4 ( 1.28MB ) : 488
 docking_2.mp4 ( 1.07MB ) : 427
 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 19 2020, 11:14 PM

docking 3

 docking_3.mp4 ( 958.2K ) : 457
 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 19 2020, 11:15 PM

sample transfer

I had not seen this interesting moment of "stuffing" samples in several steps before

 transfer.mp4 ( 2.92MB ) : 450
 

Posted by: Marcin600 Dec 19 2020, 11:16 PM

separation

 separation.mp4 ( 2.41MB ) : 495
 

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