Mars Sample Return |
Mars Sample Return |
Jul 4 2007, 05:51 AM
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#16
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Merciless Robot Group: Admin Posts: 8785 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
Sounds like one of the old Soviet manned Mars mission proposals, IIRC.
-------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Jul 4 2007, 04:24 PM
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#17
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3419 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Minneapolis, MN, USA Member No.: 15 |
Such a mission has a lot to be said for it. For one thing, it's easier to send a lot of lab equipment to, say, Phobos than to the surface of Mars, and it's likely cheaper (in terms of energy) to get the mass of the equipment you want to use to study Mars rocks to Phobos than it is to bring the rocks all the way back to Earth.
So, you set up a manned microgravity habitat on/in Phobos, outfit it with the best analysis tools you can easily get out there, and send down small sample return probes that bring you up a few kg of carefully selected rocks and soils every few months. Your PIs live on Phobos and send the detailed data back to colleagues on Earth. What would be the minimum lab requirements for a Phobos geological analysis base? You'd want to have fine-scale composition and isotope analysis, as well as the best rock dating equipment you can afford to transport. You'd also want equipment for examining micro-fossils (just in case) and for examining ices and such for possible biological activity or remnants. What suite of instruments would best serve your purposes in such a set-up? What are their power requirements? And how much of it can be feasibly transported via rocket from Earth to Phobos? Those are the questions I'd be asking right now... -the other Doug -------------------- “The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
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Jul 4 2007, 05:32 PM
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#18
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Dublin Correspondent Group: Admin Posts: 1799 Joined: 28-March 05 From: Celbridge, Ireland Member No.: 220 |
One fairly big problem that I see with the idea though is that the stuff that you loft up from the Martian surface would also have to land on Phobos and do so incredibly precisely and without damaging your lab. That's pretty hard if you ask me - It seems to me that it would be a lot easier to send stuff all the way back to Earth. The Delta-V difference between "Mars-Surface to landed on Phobos" and "Mars-Surface to Earth C3=0 orbit" is only 1.5km/sec.
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Jul 5 2007, 02:11 PM
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 688 Joined: 20-April 05 From: Sweden Member No.: 273 |
So, you set up a manned microgravity habitat on/in Phobos, outfit it with the best analysis tools you can easily get out there, and send down small sample return probes that bring you up a few kg of carefully selected rocks and soils every few months. Your PIs live on Phobos and send the detailed data back to colleagues on Earth. It seems to me that the most efficient way to use a manned outpost on Phobos would be to search for bits and pieces of Martian rock on Phobos itself. Nearly every large impact on Mars must have caused some debris to end up on Phobos. You could do the preliminary selection and analysis on Phobos and send the most interesting bits back to Earth for detailed study. In this way it should be possible to get at least a rough outline of Martian historical geology and also "ground truth" data to interpret orbital imagery. Another fairly simple and cheap, though very limited form of sample return would be to expose a Stardust-type collector during aerobraking and returning it using a small Earth-return stage. |
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Jul 5 2007, 02:57 PM
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 242 Joined: 21-December 04 Member No.: 127 |
Another fairly simple and cheap, though very limited form of sample return would be to expose a Stardust-type collector during aerobraking and returning it using a small Earth-return stage. SCIM has been proposed in the last two Scout competitions and would follow that mission profile. |
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Jul 5 2007, 11:13 PM
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 599 Joined: 26-August 05 Member No.: 476 |
Such a mission has a lot to be said for it. For one thing, it's easier to send a lot of lab equipment to, say, Phobos than to the surface of Mars, and it's likely cheaper (in terms of energy) to get the mass of the equipment you want to use to study Mars rocks to Phobos than it is to bring the rocks all the way back to Earth. So, you set up a manned microgravity habitat on/in Phobos, outfit it with the best analysis tools you can easily get out there, and send down small sample return probes that bring you up a few kg of carefully selected rocks and soils every few months. Your PIs live on Phobos and send the detailed data back to colleagues on Earth. Would it be cheaper to bring the rocks or the PIs back to Earth? The PIs are coming back, right? |
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Jul 6 2007, 03:54 AM
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#22
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3419 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Minneapolis, MN, USA Member No.: 15 |
Well, it depends... the PIs have to get their results published before they can come home, after all...
-the other Doug -------------------- “The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
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Jul 6 2007, 05:27 AM
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#23
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2173 Joined: 28-December 04 From: Florida, USA Member No.: 132 |
Publish or perish?
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Jul 6 2007, 06:06 AM
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#24
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3419 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Minneapolis, MN, USA Member No.: 15 |
Literally!
-the other Doug -------------------- “The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
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Jul 6 2007, 03:23 PM
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#25
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1281 Joined: 18-December 04 From: San Diego, CA Member No.: 124 |
-------------------- Lyford Rome
"Zis is not nuts, zis is super-nuts!" Mathematician Richard Courant on viewing an Orion test |
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_* |
Jul 6 2007, 11:40 PM
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#26
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Guests |
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Jul 26 2007, 10:44 AM
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#27
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Special Cookie Group: Members Posts: 2168 Joined: 6-April 05 From: Sintra | Portugal Member No.: 228 |
Didn't know where to put this...
"Let's get this done ... make some history," Stern concluded. This is how I like to hear them talking! -------------------- "Ride, boldly ride," The shade replied, "If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Alan Poe |
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Jul 26 2007, 12:17 PM
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 19-July 05 Member No.: 442 |
Antipode, funny you should mention that, as I am now writing up a description of a mission which includes some elements of what you describe. More on this later. Phil Was this by any chance the 'Mars Twilight Flyby' that NASA was planning in 1966? As I remember the documents I looked through the plan was to fly past Mars, drop off six probes (1 orbiters, 3 hard landers & 2 soft landers), one of which would rocket into orbit a capsule containing a Mars rock/atmosphere sample and film from a high resolution camera for pickup by the manned flyby craft. On the way back the astronauts would analyze the surface samples and beam the results back to Earth. |
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Jul 26 2007, 06:07 PM
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#29
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Solar System Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 10226 Joined: 5-April 05 From: Canada Member No.: 227 |
gndonald:
"Was this by any chance the 'Mars Twilight Flyby' that NASA was planning in 1966? " No. It's about Phobos, and has evolved into my abstract for the Phobos conference. Phil -------------------- ... because the Solar System ain't gonna map itself.
Also to be found posting similar content on https://mastodon.social/@PhilStooke Maps for download (free PDF: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Cartography.pdf NOTE: everything created by me which I post on UMSF is considered to be in the public domain (NOT CC, public domain) |
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Jul 26 2007, 08:56 PM
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#30
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2530 Joined: 20-April 05 Member No.: 321 |
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