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Nasa Picks "juno" As Next New Frontiers Mission
Guest_BruceMoomaw_*
post Jun 1 2005, 10:10 PM
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http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2005/jun/H...rontiers_2.html

Yeah, I know it ain't Saturn, but we don't seem to have any proper slot for Jovian news -- including yesterday's totally unexpected announcement that Amalthea's density is so low as to suggest that it's a highly porous ice object; maybe a captured Kuiper Belt Object reduced to rubble by infalling meteoroids. As Jason Perry says, this might explain those previously mysterious light-colored patches on Amalthea -- they may be its underlying ice, exposed by impacts that punched through the layer of sulfur spray-painted onto it by Io.

Scott Bolton has been pretty talkative to me already about the design of Juno. It certainly won't be as good in the PR department as Galileo or Cassini, but it DOES carry a camera -- as much for PR as for Jovian cloud science, according to Bolton. And since the latitude of periapsis of its highly elliptical orbit will change radically during the primary mission, I wonder if they might be able to set up at least one close photographic flyby of Io and/or Amalthea? (I believe, by the way, that this selection is a bit ahead of schedule -- and it certainly indicates that NASA's science program under Griffin won't be a complete slave to Bush's Moon-Mars initiative.)
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Guest_BruceMoomaw_*
post Jun 30 2005, 06:50 PM
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Actually, we DO need more surface observation points on Venus. One of the highest-priority goals of landings (specified in the new Roadmap) is to look for patches of granite or andesite crust which would indicate the existence of oceans on ancient Venus -- and the best place by far to look for those is in the "tessera" patches, which have been the top-priority landing sites for any American Venus mission for years. We would also like to take a look at those puzzling areas of high radar reflectivity on Venus' high-altitude terrain -- and, on top of that, keep in mind that even the Soviet landers didn't do any mineralogy at all of their own basaltic landing sites.

The question is whether the best way to do this is by a surface rover, an aerobot, or a larger number of multiple stationary landers. Frankly, I'm inclined to go with the latter -- we have the technology for those RIGHT NOW. (We might also be advised to try to develop in-situ age-dating instruments for Venus' surface; we have already done some promising initial work on those, and God knows it would be easier than a Venus sample return -- which I expect to see Congress fund on the same day O.J. finds the real killers.)
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JRehling
post Jun 30 2005, 07:15 PM
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QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 30 2005, 11:50 AM)
Actually, we DO need more surface observation points on Venus.  One of the highest-priority goals of landings (specified in the new Roadmap) is to look for patches of granite or andesite crust which would indicate the existence of oceans on ancient Venus -- and the best place by far to look for those is in the "tessera" patches, which have been the top-priority landing sites for any American Venus mission for years.  We would also like to take a look at those puzzling areas of high radar reflectivity on Venus' high-altitude terrain -- and, on top of that, keep in mind that even the Soviet landers didn't do any mineralogy at all of their own basaltic landing sites.


All good points; I meant that we know what the terrain is like on representive locations on Venus, and we could say that a rover would operate with no problem on Venera 10/Venera 14 terrain, and not much problem on Venera 9/Venera 13 terrain. Of course, we can easily radar-survey Venus to find slopes and roughnesses at arbitrary scales.

The kinds of terrain you mention are indeed different and worth checking out. And may be tough to rover on, in the case of tessera; tough to hit precisely in the case of the radar-bright heights.

I'd aim for identification of granite from above rather than trying to hit the bullseye with a tessera lander. I don't know if the high temps + CO2 allow an IR spectroscopic approach from aloft below the clouds, but a TES (instrument on Mars
Global Surveyor) -type survey would give loads of coverage if flown on a balloon or airplane that cruised over one of the big tessera areas. I'd be afraid of committing too much money to a lander (even a rover) and landing in the wrong valley, one valley over from the geologically older one. Venus is a big place, and just as current Mars lander site selection depended upon orbital surveys to do us much good, we would be well served by some light/broad recon of Venus before we pay for landers.

QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 30 2005, 11:50 AM)
The question is whether the best way to do this is by a surface rover, an aerobot, or a larger number of multiple stationary landers.  Frankly, I'm inclined to go with the latter -- we have the technology for those RIGHT NOW.  (We might also be advised to try to develop in-situ age-dating instruments for Venus' surface; we have already done some promising initial work on those, and God knows it would be easier than a Venus sample return -- which I expect to see Congress fund on the same day O.J. finds the real killers.)
*


We don't have the technology for long-duration Venus landers right now -- well, unless nuclear-powered refrigeration is the way we keep the instruments alive. An aerobot may or may not require less technological development than a seriously long-lasting Venus stationary lander, because the ability to go aloft into the cool heights is certainly more of a no-moving-parts approach than the refrigeration method. Whichever is easier, a stationary Venus lander with seismometry is a must-have at some point. But I disagree that a lander-first surely offers the best science/cost plan. Another entry in the field is also a very small, VAMP-like probe that aces the isotopic analysis of the atmosphere.

I might say that a good candidate for the next Venus mission would be an isotopic analyzer that also tested some multispactral imaging on a surface unit boundary to see what an aerobot/airplane could do with a longer below-cloud groundtrack.
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Posts in this topic
- BruceMoomaw   Nasa Picks "juno" As Next New Frontiers Mission   Jun 1 2005, 10:10 PM
- - tedstryk   Great to hear. With the whole lunar program being...   Jun 1 2005, 10:44 PM
- - djellison   I take it this puts to bed the possibility of an N...   Jun 1 2005, 10:45 PM
- - Sunspot   Any proposals on what kind of camera?   Jun 1 2005, 11:39 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   No website yet, and I have no details on what kind...   Jun 1 2005, 11:51 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Postscript: the mission selection actually was pla...   Jun 1 2005, 11:51 PM
- - Sunspot   They can't return to Jupiter without taking a ...   Jun 1 2005, 11:57 PM
- - edstrick   Atmosphere sounding instruments can also return ve...   Jun 2 2005, 06:49 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Well, I can give you the full instrument list (alt...   Jun 2 2005, 10:37 AM
|- - garybeau   I would have thought / hoped the next Jovian missi...   Jun 2 2005, 12:39 PM
|- - tty   QUOTE (garybeau @ Jun 2 2005, 02:39 PM)I woul...   Jun 2 2005, 04:40 PM
|- - volcanopele   QUOTE (garybeau @ Jun 2 2005, 05:39 AM)I woul...   Jun 2 2005, 05:51 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (garybeau @ Jun 2 2005, 05:39 AM)I woul...   Jun 6 2005, 03:26 PM
|- - tedstryk   I think the six-flybys analogy is a good one (seve...   Jun 6 2005, 05:02 PM
|- - Bjorn Jonsson   I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Juno wil...   Jun 6 2005, 05:26 PM
- - Chmee   Hopefully Juno wont have an umbrella style high ga...   Jun 2 2005, 03:03 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Well, the Decadal Survey recommended -- and the ne...   Jun 3 2005, 01:17 AM
|- - Gsnorgathon   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 3 2005, 01:17 AM)......   Jun 3 2005, 02:16 AM
|- - Redstone   QUOTE (Gsnorgathon @ Jun 3 2005, 02:16 AM)Are...   Jun 3 2005, 02:32 PM
|- - Gsnorgathon   QUOTE (Redstone @ Jun 3 2005, 02:32 PM)... if...   Jun 3 2005, 09:58 PM
|- - garybeau   QUOTE The Jupiter icy moons' orbiter mission w...   Jun 4 2005, 12:18 PM
|- - tedstryk   I don't think getting to Europa is the biggest...   Jun 4 2005, 12:27 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Jason is likely to be disappointed if he thinks of...   Jun 3 2005, 01:21 AM
|- - volcanopele   I never thought it would actually flyby Io, given ...   Jun 3 2005, 01:35 AM
|- - um3k   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 2 2005, 09:21 PM)it ...   Jun 4 2005, 02:38 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   BESIDES all that, there was one other major proble...   Jun 3 2005, 10:57 PM
- - edstrick   The Juno instrument selection looks quite "re...   Jun 4 2005, 09:04 AM
- - edstrick   Most of the P.R. talk on crashing Galileo into Jup...   Jun 5 2005, 01:56 AM
- - Decepticon   QUOTE ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA ATT...   Jun 5 2005, 03:29 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   I don't think the crashing of Galileo to ...   Jun 5 2005, 06:23 AM
|- - dvandorn   The other real difference between potential Martia...   Jun 5 2005, 09:30 AM
|- - garybeau   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 5 2005, 01:23 AM)Tha...   Jun 6 2005, 12:55 AM
|- - JRehling   Three miscellaneous comments for this thread, from...   Jun 6 2005, 01:30 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (edstrick @ Jun 5 2005, 01:56 AM)Most o...   Jun 5 2005, 06:32 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   While the new Solar System Roadmap (or, rather its...   Jun 5 2005, 06:53 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 5 2005, 06:53 AM)But...   Jun 5 2005, 10:35 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 5 2005, 06:53 AM)But...   Jun 8 2005, 09:52 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (edstrick @ Jun 4 2005, 09:04 AM)The Ju...   Jun 5 2005, 07:09 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 5 2005, 07:09 AM)...   Jun 5 2005, 10:32 AM
- - Redstone   QUOTE (garybeau @ Jun 4 2005, 12:18 PM)The or...   Jun 6 2005, 02:17 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   Some comments on life on Mars (and elsewhere) and ...   Jun 6 2005, 01:58 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Yeah, it will be -- which will certainly interfere...   Jun 6 2005, 07:27 PM
- - Myran   dvandorn wrote: "I think the most boring thi...   Jun 8 2005, 12:12 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Myran @ Jun 8 2005, 05:12 AM)As for sa...   Jun 8 2005, 04:47 PM
- - Decepticon   They are sending a Probe to Jupiter and according ...   Jun 10 2005, 02:03 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Decepticon @ Jun 9 2005, 07:03 PM)They...   Jun 10 2005, 04:30 PM
|- - tedstryk   Another factor to consider is that a decent Europa...   Jun 10 2005, 04:55 PM
- - Gsnorgathon   FWIW, a wee writeup at Astrobio.net, and the ever-...   Jun 10 2005, 05:30 AM
- - edstrick   Part of the problem is that *any* Europa orbiter m...   Jun 11 2005, 12:16 AM
|- - Decepticon   Even with Galileo type flybys would make me happy....   Jun 11 2005, 02:37 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Ted, I missed your Amalthea images until just now ...   Jun 11 2005, 03:21 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jun 11 2005, 03:21 AM)Te...   Jun 11 2005, 03:30 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Juno's orbit will go from only 4500 km above J...   Jun 11 2005, 09:04 PM
|- - MiniTES   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 11 2005, 09:04 PM)Ju...   Jun 15 2005, 02:51 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Spinning doesn't have to mean Pioneer 10-class...   Jun 15 2005, 03:28 PM
- - Decepticon   Can Juno at least take Movie like animations of th...   Jun 15 2005, 08:17 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   According to the Space.com article, it will indeed...   Jun 15 2005, 10:17 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   "...rathern using a filter wheel" is rea...   Jun 15 2005, 10:19 PM
- - Sunspot   Oh... thats a shame, I guess we probably wont ever...   Jun 15 2005, 10:46 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Actually we will see some good stuff in 2007 from ...   Jun 15 2005, 11:26 PM
- - edstrick   Why is it spinning? Field and Particles instrument...   Jun 15 2005, 11:27 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Fear not! We WILL see excellent images of Jup...   Jun 16 2005, 02:26 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Footnote: the reason that the radiation dose for a...   Jun 16 2005, 02:38 AM
|- - MiniTES   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 16 2005, 02:38 AM)Fo...   Jun 16 2005, 05:20 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (MiniTES @ Jun 16 2005, 05:20 PM)How th...   Jun 16 2005, 06:25 PM
- - edstrick   And.... It's moving perpendicular to the belts...   Jun 16 2005, 05:43 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   It would be more accurate to say that they intend ...   Jun 16 2005, 07:44 AM
- - Analyst   Bruce, I want your optimism when it comes to futur...   Jun 16 2005, 12:34 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Analyst @ Jun 16 2005, 05:34 AM)Bruce,...   Jun 16 2005, 01:53 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Yup -- they've had solar panels planned for a ...   Jun 17 2005, 12:08 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (Analyst @ Jun 16 2005, 12:34 PM)Bruce,...   Jun 17 2005, 12:21 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   You'll notice that I HAVE backtracked from the...   Jun 17 2005, 12:25 AM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 16 2005, 05:25 PM)Yo...   Jun 17 2005, 02:55 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (vjkane2000 @ Jun 16 2005, 07:55 PM)The...   Jun 17 2005, 04:19 PM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jun 17 2005, 09:19 AM)A dif...   Jun 17 2005, 05:23 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   It's a possibility -- but I suspect you're...   Jun 17 2005, 07:17 AM
|- - gpurcell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 17 2005, 07:17 AM)In...   Jun 17 2005, 07:39 PM
- - edstrick   You really *do* want a very high power telescopic ...   Jun 17 2005, 07:22 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Turns out I misread that white paper -- Europa Orb...   Jun 17 2005, 07:22 AM
- - vjkane2000   Cost is, of course, a major issue for any Jupiter ...   Jun 17 2005, 02:00 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Damned if I know, especially with this president -...   Jun 19 2005, 10:29 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Bruce: Are you talking about the Hubble II comple...   Jun 19 2005, 10:47 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   As for Van Kane's comments on the "Io Obs...   Jun 19 2005, 10:58 PM
|- - JRehling   Imagine the way Halley's Comet's orbi...   Jun 20 2005, 01:25 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   "Are you talking about the Hubble II complete...   Jun 19 2005, 11:54 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   (1) "Imagine the way Halley's Comet...   Jun 20 2005, 02:55 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 19 2005, 07:55 PM)Ah...   Jun 20 2005, 08:55 PM
- - gpurcell   I've always thought that the best deorbit miss...   Jun 20 2005, 03:09 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Actually, there are a hell of a lot of things they...   Jun 21 2005, 12:31 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 21 2005, 05:31 AM)Ac...   Jun 21 2005, 03:31 PM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jun 21 2005, 08:31 AM)Indee...   Jun 22 2005, 09:10 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Well, keep in mind that Cassini's 45 close fly...   Jun 22 2005, 10:52 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   The presentations from the June OPAG meeting are n...   Jun 29 2005, 06:02 PM
|- - imran   Thanks for the links, Bruce. I am surprised too t...   Jun 29 2005, 08:37 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   This hardly means that they're not considering...   Jun 29 2005, 10:28 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   And, for one recent JPL study of a Titan aerobot m...   Jun 29 2005, 10:31 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 29 2005, 03:31 PM)An...   Jun 30 2005, 05:20 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Actually, we DO need more surface observation poin...   Jun 30 2005, 06:50 PM
- - tedstryk   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 30 2005, 06:50 PM)Ac...   Jun 30 2005, 06:58 PM
- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Jun 30 2005, 11:50 AM)Ac...   Jun 30 2005, 07:15 PM
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