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Future Venus Missions
Phil Stooke
post Jul 1 2005, 01:30 AM
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Oh well, might as well start that new topic since it's already well advanced in the Juno area...

My perspective on landers is as follows. All the landers we've had so far were dropped blind onto an essentially unknown surface. Any future landers can be targeted for specific terrains. It really is not true that we have had representative landings. Even a descent image or two, a panoramic photo plus a bit of surface composition, from a simple Venera-class lander just updated a bit, would be useful if we could put several down at well chosen targets. My choices would be:

Examples of the main plains units (smooth, fractured, ridged)

tesserae

high elevation radar-bright tesserae

large fresh lava flow unit ('fluctus')

crater dark parabola

crater ejecta outflow unit

dunes area.

And I have always assumed, rightly or wrongly, that it would be relatively easy to put these down, so they ought to be fairly inexpensive as planetary landers go.

Phil


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Guest_BruceMoomaw_*
post Dec 16 2005, 11:27 PM
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Well, it's a fact that E.E. Barnard -- one of the sharpest-eyed of all astronomers (which is how he discovered Amalthea) -- is also the only naked-eye astronomer to swear that he saw Mars covered with craters.
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ljk4-1
post Feb 21 2006, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 16 2005, 06:27 PM) *
Well, it's a fact that E.E. Barnard -- one of the sharpest-eyed of all astronomers (which is how he discovered Amalthea) -- is also the only naked-eye astronomer to swear that he saw Mars covered with craters.


There was an article in Sky & Telescope magazine (exact issue I do not recall,
but likely within the last 10 years) that claims the craters he saw were actually
the Tharsis volcanoes.

But why were scientists so surprised when Mariner 4 found so many craters
on Mars? Did they really expect the planet to have more erosion mechanisms?


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I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard,
and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does
not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is
indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have
no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft."

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Bob Shaw
post Feb 21 2006, 10:54 PM
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QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 21 2006, 10:20 PM) *
There was an article in Sky & Telescope magazine (exact issue I do not recall,
but likely within the last 10 years) that claims the craters he saw were actually
the Tharsis volcanoes.

But why were scientists so surprised when Mariner 4 found so many craters
on Mars? Did they really expect the planet to have more erosion mechanisms?


George Pal put craters on Mars in the 1950s! So they must have been not far below the surface of the semi-technical consciousness...

Bob Shaw


QUOTE (gndonald @ Feb 20 2006, 04:34 PM) *
The following are the best references I have found online:

The Venus-Halley Missions, Don P. Mitchell

The above covers the entire flights and the origins of the ballon plan. The following two pages from Astronautix.com provide additional information into the original VeGa plan, which would have seen four probes launched, two of which would have been dedicated ballon carriers.

Vega 5VS and Vega 5VK

Graham



Graham:

Thanks - none of these offer very much in terms of detailed construction, though...

Bob Shaw


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Guest_DonPMitchell_*
post May 4 2006, 08:33 PM
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Bob, what in particular did you want to know about the construction of the Vega aerostats?
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Bob Shaw
post May 7 2006, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 4 2006, 09:33 PM) *
Bob, what in particular did you want to know about the construction of the Vega aerostats?


Don:

I've only seen (a very few) poor quality illustrations of their design - they've always struck me as being one of the more fascinating unsung planetary missions (probably well covered in French, though!). It's primarily the general layout, the deployment, and suchlike which I'd like to learn more about!

Bob Shaw


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Guest_DonPMitchell_*
post May 7 2006, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ May 7 2006, 08:51 AM) *
Don:

I've only seen (a very few) poor quality illustrations of their design - they've always struck me as being one of the more fascinating unsung planetary missions (probably well covered in French, though!). It's primarily the general layout, the deployment, and suchlike which I'd like to learn more about!

Bob Shaw


Blamont's book (in French) talks at length about this. The Vega balloon mission didn't have much to do with the French. In 1978, Blamont proposed an idea to send a much more complex mission to Venus that involved a big metal-foil balloon probe and an orbiter to relay its telemetry. As far as I know, nothing was ever built or designed in detail. The Mars sample-return mission was sucking the life out of their space budget though, so they sent the Venera-11/12 mission, and botched up some aspects of it. The head of NPO Lavochkin was fired after these probelms.

The Vega probes were designed at Lavochkin, based on a proposal by V. Linkin and others. It's made of teflon and nylon, and quite a bit smaller that what Blamont had proposed.

The idea of combining a Venus mission with a rendezvous with Halley's comet is from Vladimir Kurt. He and a mathematician worked out the celestial dynamics, and got it approved. Some kind of serious falling out occured between Kurt and Sagdeev though, so you don't see Kurt's name mentioned much, even though he was a primary mission planner for Vega.

Here is a diagram of the deployment:

[attachment=5484:attachment]

Here are a couple pretty good diagrams of the aerostat:

[attachment=5481:attachment]

[attachment=5480:attachment]
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Bob Shaw
post May 7 2006, 06:02 PM
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Don:

Thanks!

I hadn't previously realised that the entry/deployment sequence was quite so complex - I'd presumed (for no good reason that I can think of) that the lander simply had a bolt-on atttachment which was the ballooon and whatever bits were required to set it going! It's really impressive that a clockwork spacecraft could do so much and so well.

Bob Shaw


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Posts in this topic
- Phil Stooke   Future Venus Missions   Jul 1 2005, 01:30 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Well, to repeat a point I've suggested (somewh...   Jul 1 2005, 09:23 AM
|- - JRehling   Phil is, of course, completely right about the lis...   Jul 1 2005, 04:28 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jul 1 2005, 08:28 AM)A poss...   Dec 15 2005, 01:34 PM
|- - Jeff7   QUOTE (JRehling @ Dec 15 2005, 08:34 AM)A bit...   Dec 15 2005, 06:33 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Jeff7 @ Dec 15 2005, 10:33 AM)I suppos...   Dec 15 2005, 09:21 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   A simple explanation for at least part of the stor...   Dec 15 2005, 11:38 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Dec 15 2005, 03:38 PM)A sim...   Dec 16 2005, 02:17 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   I see I forgot to provide the URL for the LPSC abs...   Jul 1 2005, 09:27 AM
|- - Myran   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw wrote.)....and without any need...   Jul 1 2005, 04:31 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   The main justification for simplifying a Venus lan...   Jul 1 2005, 11:28 PM
|- - AndyG   Given that the surface is so hot and so highly pre...   Jul 7 2005, 02:39 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   As there are some fairly well-described outline de...   Jul 7 2005, 02:54 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jul 7 2005, 07:54 AM)As the...   Jul 7 2005, 08:18 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Actually, this type of mission -- a balloon using...   Jul 8 2005, 01:58 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   Bruce: Very interesting - you are a fount of know...   Jul 8 2005, 02:47 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Among the interesting points in the .PDFs to which...   Jul 8 2005, 03:03 PM
||- - Bob Shaw   A conceptual small Venus atmosphere probe picture ...   Jul 20 2005, 01:45 PM
|- - gndonald   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jul 8 2005, 10:47 PM) S...   Feb 20 2006, 04:34 PM
- - remcook   ESA is looking at a mission that is using a balloo...   Jul 20 2005, 01:53 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   NASA's Venus Exploration Analysis Group (VEXAG...   Nov 6 2005, 02:15 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Nov 5 2005, 07:15 PM)the...   Nov 6 2005, 06:29 AM
- - remcook   a good update from emily on oncoming missions (VEX...   Nov 9 2005, 10:01 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   To my delight, last night I stumbled by chance acr...   Nov 24 2005, 03:23 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Nov 24 2005, 07:23 AM)On...   Nov 25 2005, 05:22 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   One other thing which I just now noticed on the la...   Nov 24 2005, 03:26 PM
- - Phil Stooke   I just tried to access the Venus lander PDS file B...   Nov 24 2005, 04:10 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   It just came through OK for me again (using the UR...   Nov 24 2005, 10:10 PM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Nov 24 2005, 03:10 PM)On...   Nov 26 2005, 06:31 AM
- - Phil Stooke   You're right, Bruce... tried a different machi...   Nov 25 2005, 02:22 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Remember Magellan, which completed 1.5 orbits arou...   Nov 26 2005, 02:27 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   This wouldn't make the SAGE landers that much ...   Nov 26 2005, 08:24 AM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Nov 26 2005, 01:24 AM)Th...   Nov 27 2005, 06:08 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Nov 26 2005, 12:24 AM)Th...   Nov 27 2005, 07:13 AM
- - edstrick   I'd be really interested in knowing the calcul...   Nov 27 2005, 09:51 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   First: it's not the WEIGHT of imaging cameras ...   Nov 27 2005, 09:55 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Bruce said: "One possibility that comes to m...   Nov 27 2005, 09:32 PM
|- - tedstryk   Another possibility is, if the probe transmits at ...   Nov 28 2005, 03:01 AM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Nov 27 2005, 08:01 PM)Anoth...   Nov 28 2005, 03:34 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   But, once again, a high-resolution radar orbiter -...   Nov 28 2005, 02:09 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Bruce, yes, lots of tesserae have small ponds of l...   Nov 28 2005, 03:34 AM
- - edstrick   The frustration of understanding anything about th...   Nov 28 2005, 06:16 AM
- - RNeuhaus   Why does not do design a good space architecture a...   Nov 28 2005, 03:20 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Nov 28 2005, 07:20 AM)Why d...   Nov 28 2005, 04:51 PM
|- - RNeuhaus   QUOTE (JRehling @ Nov 28 2005, 11:51 AM)An or...   Nov 28 2005, 08:42 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   I take for granted that the first three or four ge...   Nov 29 2005, 01:16 AM
- - djellison   Ahh - Nico and I saw a presentation about that at ...   Dec 15 2005, 01:38 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Yep. One would think that -- if the Ashen Light a...   Dec 16 2005, 03:17 AM
|- - David   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 16 2005, 03:17 AM)Ye...   Dec 16 2005, 01:48 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Well, it's a fact that E.E. Barnard -- one of ...   Dec 16 2005, 11:27 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   There's an empirical test (for once), and that...   Dec 17 2005, 12:22 AM
|- - David   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 16 2005, 11:27 PM)We...   Dec 17 2005, 12:47 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 16 2005, 03:27 PM)We...   Dec 17 2005, 06:28 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 16 2005, 06:27 P...   Feb 21 2006, 10:20 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 21 2006, 10:20 P...   Feb 21 2006, 10:54 PM
||- - DonPMitchell   Bob, what in particular did you want to know about...   May 4 2006, 08:33 PM
||- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 4 2006, 09:33 P...   May 7 2006, 03:51 PM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ May 7 2006, 08:51 AM) D...   May 7 2006, 05:37 PM
||- - Bob Shaw   Don: Thanks! I hadn't previously realise...   May 7 2006, 06:02 PM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ May 7 2006, 11:02 AM) D...   May 7 2006, 06:10 PM
||- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 7 2006, 07:10 P...   May 7 2006, 06:14 PM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ May 7 2006, 11:14 AM) C...   May 7 2006, 07:13 PM
||- - mchan   Over mine, too. IJFGI. Learn something new every...   May 8 2006, 12:52 AM
||- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (mchan @ May 8 2006, 01:52 AM) Over...   May 8 2006, 09:07 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 21 2006, 02:20 P...   Feb 21 2006, 11:56 PM
- - dvandorn   One reason Martian craters are hard to see from Ea...   Dec 17 2005, 01:39 AM
- - Phil Stooke   I think the whole issue of earth-based identificat...   Dec 17 2005, 05:21 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 17 2005, 05:21 A...   Feb 20 2006, 10:11 PM
- - edstrick   There was a full set of preliminary science papers...   Feb 22 2006, 08:37 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Replying to Bob about seeing Aristarchus with his ...   Feb 22 2006, 01:34 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   The presentations from the second VEXAG meeting ha...   May 3 2006, 02:51 PM
|- - nprev   Mr. Esposito's presentation was indeed informa...   May 5 2006, 12:40 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (nprev @ May 4 2006, 05:40 PM) Mr. ...   May 5 2006, 01:53 AM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (nprev @ May 5 2006, 12:40 AM) Mr. ...   May 6 2006, 09:22 AM
|- - PhilHorzempa   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 6 2006, 05:22 AM...   May 7 2006, 04:39 AM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (PhilHorzempa @ May 6 2006, 09:39 P...   May 8 2006, 09:08 AM
|- - tty   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 6 2006, 11:22 AM...   May 7 2006, 06:00 PM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (tty @ May 7 2006, 06:00 PM) Plate ...   May 8 2006, 01:39 AM
- - RNeuhaus   I feel that the last proposal from VEXAG is more s...   May 3 2006, 04:01 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Hi Don! That was quick! Phil   May 4 2006, 09:00 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Aha! I always wondered why Madame de Pompadou...   May 8 2006, 10:09 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 8 2006, 11:09 PM...   May 8 2006, 10:40 PM
|- - Chmee   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ May 8 2006, 06:40 PM) B...   May 9 2006, 04:28 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (Chmee @ May 9 2006, 12:28 PM) So w...   May 9 2006, 05:56 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (Chmee @ May 9 2006, 05:28 PM) So w...   May 9 2006, 05:56 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   After clawing my way through my CD-ROM library of ...   May 12 2006, 08:08 AM
- - vjkane   Presentations from the last VEXAG meeting are now ...   Jul 23 2008, 03:48 PM
- - Vultur   I think Venus rovers and balloons, someday, might ...   Nov 15 2008, 07:49 PM
- - Enceladus75   Whilst it would be brilliant to have rovers on Ven...   Nov 19 2008, 07:58 PM
- - PhilCo126   Venus resembles a depiction of "Hell" so...   Nov 20 2008, 07:04 PM
- - Juramike   The Venera landers did manage last about an hour o...   Nov 20 2008, 08:35 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (Juramike @ Nov 20 2008, 08:35 PM) ...   Nov 21 2008, 05:31 PM
|- - huygens_stowaway   QUOTE (vjkane @ Nov 21 2008, 05:31 PM) Th...   Dec 4 2008, 09:37 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (huygens_stowaway @ Dec 4 2008, 04...   Dec 4 2008, 10:02 PM
- - Paolo   An interesting Venus Flagship Mission Study   Jul 12 2009, 03:01 PM
- - qraal   Hi Guys Geoff Landis discusses aerobots and surfa...   Jul 16 2009, 09:34 AM
|- - MahFL   The Landis paper is really interesting, I did not ...   Jul 16 2009, 12:35 PM
|- - stevesliva   QUOTE (MahFL @ Jul 16 2009, 08:35 AM) The...   Jul 16 2009, 03:52 PM
- - tasp   And recall, even with an electronic device operati...   Jul 16 2009, 11:25 PM
- - stevesliva   Yeah. One of the reports mentioned that resistors...   Jul 16 2009, 11:39 PM
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