Mercury Landers |
Mercury Landers |
Aug 15 2005, 03:36 PM
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#1
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 19-July 05 Member No.: 442 |
While the likelyhood of a Mercury Lander mission is very low, I was wondering if any planning/studies have been done on such a project?
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Aug 17 2005, 10:59 AM
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#2
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1869 Joined: 20-February 05 Member No.: 174 |
JRehling observed " We probably have, or will have, Mercury meteorites in collections "
Maybe but it's doubtful. They'll look, in all probability like lunar highlands breccias, but bulk compsition will be obviously non-lunar... a different pattern of volatile element depletion from what we think really heavily stripped the moon of "volatile" elements, including things like potassium, halogens, lead, zinc... in the mega impact that lead to our double planet. More distinctive, and telltale, will be oxygen isotope fractionation patterns. The solar system was mixed thoroughally, but not completely, and martian, earth/moon, asteroidal (many different batches) and cometary isotopes are utterly distinctive in an 016/17 vs O16/18 plot. There is *ONE* oddball meteorite I read about 2 or 3 years ago that resembles lunar meteorites but has an odd oxygen isotope pattern and it was being discussed as a possible mercurian ejecta sample, but I haven't heard a peep in the public reporting since. Expectations, as I recall, from orbital dynamics stuff is that we should get about 1 merc meteorite for every 100 lunar ones <separate impacts?>.. and we dont' have 100 lunar ones. Where we *should* put a lander down is on the mercury polar ice deposits in permanent shadows in craters. Keeping the lander warm will be the problem, not cool. This stuff is radar-bright and depolarizing.. the radar penetrates many wavelengths into the scattering ice without being absorbed and gets diffusely scattered back out with high reflectance. Utterly unlike the marginally detected radar signature of lunar polar volatiles, if the detection claims aren't bogus anyway. |
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Aug 17 2005, 04:02 PM
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#3
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1512 Joined: 20-April 05 Member No.: 321 |
QUOTE (edstrick @ Aug 17 2005, 03:59 AM) JRehling observed " We probably have, or will have, Mercury meteorites in collections " Maybe but it's doubtful. They'll look, in all probability like lunar highlands breccias, but bulk compsition will be obviously non-lunar... a different pattern of volatile element depletion from what we think really heavily stripped the moon of "volatile" elements, including things like potassium, halogens, lead, zinc... in the mega impact that lead to our double planet. More distinctive, and telltale, will be oxygen isotope fractionation patterns. The solar system was mixed thoroughally, but not completely, and martian, earth/moon, asteroidal (many different batches) and cometary isotopes are utterly distinctive in an 016/17 vs O16/18 plot. There is *ONE* oddball meteorite I read about 2 or 3 years ago that resembles lunar meteorites but has an odd oxygen isotope pattern and it was being discussed as a possible mercurian ejecta sample, but I haven't heard a peep in the public reporting since. Expectations, as I recall, from orbital dynamics stuff is that we should get about 1 merc meteorite for every 100 lunar ones <separate impacts?>.. and we dont' have 100 lunar ones. Studies have differed on how many Mercury ejecta would make it to Earth, with one study going as high as 0.5% of the total (how long a time span one allows for the travel is a factor, since complex orbital dynamics are part of the picture). The percentage of lunar and martian ejecta making it to Earth may be about 40% and 4%, respectively, according to one analysis. We have to assume that the analysis of collections for possible lunar and martian origin has only been done very incompletely, but about 1% of the recent large meteorite finds have been from Mars. We might expect a Mercury meteorite for every 20 or so Martian meteorites (the fact that Mercury has no atmosphere to slow ejecta on the rise is a big help), so with umpteen identified martian meteorites on the record books and others sure to have not yet been detected, I'll stick to my guns and say that it's a definite possibility that we have a Mercury meteorite somewhere, unidentified as such, although I'll grant that the most likely counting numbers for the sum total of them are 0, 1, and 2 -- in no particular order. Doing my own reasoning here, I'll note that travel times for lunar meteorites is VERY short compared to planetary meteorites, so if an ejecta-launching impact hits any of these worlds every few million years, then we should be getting a steady trickle of impactors from Mercury and Mars, but nothing from the Moon in a typical year, until suddenly a huge number of lunar meteorites are sprung by an impact and they become a common occurrence for several tens of thousands of years. That is to say, the infall of lunar meteorites should be highly stochastic, while the long travel times from Mercury and Mars should put those "streams" into more of a steady state. So a count of lunar meteorites that are atop our current layers of topsoil and polar snows really tells us very little. In fact, lunar meteorite influx in a MEDIAN year may be lower than that from other planets because the sum is so heavily spiked into the times right after an appropriate impact. NWA 011 was one meteorite that was identified as being possibly Mercurian, although it was high in iron, which goes a long way to nix that (Mercury is crunchy, that is to say iron, on the inside; chewy, that is to say silicate with very low iron, on the outside). QUOTE (edstrick @ Aug 17 2005,03:59 AM) Where we *should* put a lander down is on the mercury polar ice deposits in permanent shadows in craters. Keeping the lander warm will be the problem, not cool. This stuff is radar-bright and depolarizing.. the radar penetrates many wavelengths into the scattering ice without being absorbed and gets diffusely scattered back out with high reflectance. Utterly unlike the marginally detected radar signature of lunar polar volatiles, if the detection claims aren't bogus anyway. We still aren't sure just what the surface would be for those Mercury polar reflections. It may be dust atop ice, or sulfur, or something else. Of course, a mission would be interesting in any case, if it can poke through a possible dust cover to see what's beneath. It would be disappointing though if the reflective stuff were patchy and our lander missed it by 200 m. |
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gndonald Mercury Landers Aug 15 2005, 03:36 PM
Patteroast The European 'BepiColumbo' mission planned... Aug 15 2005, 04:13 PM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (Patteroast @ Aug 15 2005, 05:13 PM)The... Aug 15 2005, 07:05 PM
JRehling QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Aug 15 2005, 12:05 PM)The p... Aug 16 2005, 03:55 PM
djellison Impactor could work
Doug Aug 15 2005, 07:24 PM
BruceMoomaw ESA studied alternative possible designs for a Bep... Aug 15 2005, 07:30 PM
remcook Although the Bepi-Colombo lander is cancelled, ESA... Aug 16 2005, 08:44 AM
djellison Well - studies dont equal flight hardware. Maybe ... Aug 16 2005, 08:57 AM
remcook actually, hardware is actually made at this moment... Aug 16 2005, 03:01 PM
BruceMoomaw (1) That Mercury smash-and-grab mission is a real... Aug 16 2005, 07:53 PM
DDAVIS [quote=BruceMoomaw,Aug 16 2005, 07:53 PM]
(2) Ac... Aug 16 2005, 10:30 PM
JRehling
Not to be a party-pooper, but the degree of spec... Aug 17 2005, 06:44 AM
djellison Well quite - of the planets on which one COULD lan... Aug 16 2005, 10:46 PM
BruceMoomaw You're forgetting 2003 UB313, Doug... (Or, alt... Aug 17 2005, 12:57 AM
um3k QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Aug 16 2005, 08:57 PM)Yo... Aug 17 2005, 01:06 AM
Richard Trigaux JRehling,
your smash and grab idea is interesting.... Aug 17 2005, 06:11 AM
Stephen QUOTE (edstrick @ Aug 17 2005, 10:59 AM)Where... Sep 1 2005, 02:36 AM
Richard Trigaux What is astonishing with Mercury is that it closel... Aug 17 2005, 12:29 PM
centsworth_II If getting a refector on Mercury is the objective,... Aug 17 2005, 04:44 PM
tty Here is a recent study of the probability of findi... Aug 17 2005, 05:48 PM
BruceMoomaw We don't want a reflector on Mercury for libra... Aug 17 2005, 10:12 PM
Myran Cant but agree with BruceMoomaw, libration studies... Aug 18 2005, 05:55 AM
Richard Trigaux centsworth_II your idea is interesting, but it wou... Aug 18 2005, 06:40 AM
BruceMoomaw I honestly don't know why they had it in mind,... Aug 19 2005, 06:40 AM
JRehling QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Aug 18 2005, 11:40 PM)I ... Aug 19 2005, 01:54 PM
BruceMoomaw Well, I know that, John. I presumed that Richard ... Aug 19 2005, 06:23 PM
JRehling QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Aug 19 2005, 11:23 AM)We... Aug 19 2005, 09:31 PM
BruceMoomaw ESA was thinking about a lander only 3 degrees fro... Sep 1 2005, 03:01 AM
tasp Just throwing out some ideas, may be helpful in th... Nov 26 2005, 06:14 PM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 26 2005, 07:14 PM)Just thro... Nov 26 2005, 06:30 PM
tty QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Nov 26 2005, 08:30 PM)The k... Nov 27 2005, 04:42 PM
DEChengst QUOTE (tty @ Nov 27 2005, 05:42 PM)The best a... Nov 27 2005, 09:20 PM
BruceMoomaw There was, I've heard (though I haven't co... Nov 26 2005, 09:13 PM
edstrick Two or three years ago, there was some reporting o... Nov 27 2005, 08:43 PM
JRehling I can't find the reference to the Mercury smas... Nov 28 2005, 01:55 AM
BruceMoomaw Keep in mind that this thing will fly past Mercury... Nov 28 2005, 02:11 AM
ljk4-1 In this 1971 book, Beyond the Moon: Future Explora... May 30 2006, 06:15 PM
BruceMoomaw NASA never -- and I mean never -- put any Mercury ... May 31 2006, 05:45 AM![]() ![]() |
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