The Pioneer Anomaly |
The Pioneer Anomaly |
Aug 16 2005, 04:27 PM
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#1
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 981 Joined: 4-March 04 Member No.: 47 |
http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/pioneer_anomaly_faq.html
The planetary society may be checking it out... QUOTE The Planetary Society has committed to raise the funds to preserve the priceless Pioneer data from destruction.
After years of analysis, but without a final conclusion, NASA, astonishingly, gave up trying to solve the "Pioneer Anomaly" and provided no funds to analyze the data. The Pioneer data exists on a few hundred ancient 7- and 9-track magnetic tapes, which can only be read on "antique" outdated computers. The agency is going to scrap, literally demolish, the only computers able to access and process that data in the next few months! |
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| Guest_Richard Trigaux_* |
Aug 18 2005, 06:59 AM
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#2
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Guests |
As far as I understand from readings in the press, the Pioneer probes (ant others) would slow down slighty more than expected from only the Sun gravity. This led to some interesting but far reached speculations.
Some asked if the gravity law was not exactly 1/R2. The most consistent speculation is that, like the galaxy shows an excess (sometimes ten times) of invisible mass, called dark matter, the solar system may have some too (although much less, a fraction of a %). From close to the Sun, we feel only the Sun's attraction, but further in space we feel the Sun's more the dark matter's attraction. This could be explained if the dark matter is made of low energy subatomic particles; many would orbit the galaxy, with speeds in the 200km/s range. Some would orbit the Sun with still smaller speeds in the km/s range. But the measurement of the anomaly is based on many far-reached and difficult estimates, such as the toss of sun's light on the space probe, or gaz leak from the reservoirs. A slight error or false assumption, and the result would be very different. This is why the Pioneer anomaly did not upset the science community. A precise measurement of this anomaly would perhaps do. |
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Aug 26 2005, 09:08 PM
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#3
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 624 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 460 |
QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Aug 17 2005, 11:59 PM) As far as I understand from readings in the press, the Pioneer probes (ant others) would slow down slighty more than expected from only the Sun gravity. This led to some interesting but far reached speculations. ... But the measurement of the anomaly is based on many far-reached and difficult estimates, such as the toss of sun's light on the space probe, or gaz leak from the reservoirs. A slight error or false assumption, and the result would be very different. This is why the Pioneer anomaly did not upset the science community. A precise measurement of this anomaly would perhaps do. Painstaking and careful analysis is a more exacting description. http://arxiv.org/find/astro-ph/1/au:+Turys...S/0/1/0/all/0/1 http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0104064 http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9906112 Anderson, Nieto & Turyshev's paper- rebuttal - papers with the astrophysical community spans more than a decade now, and signatures of the anomalies have been found everywhere they have found the time and money to look for them. The community should be giving this type of research highest priority - Nowhere is it written in stone gravity behaves exactly as was predicted and observed a more than a century ago. If the observational data indicates otherwise, why are we so certain the status que is the status correct? |
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Aug 26 2005, 10:42 PM
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#4
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 2-August 05 Member No.: 451 |
QUOTE (The Messenger @ Aug 26 2005, 04:08 PM) The community should be giving this type of research highest priority The highest priority? I think finding all substantial Earth Crossing asteroids would be more important. Basic exploration of the Solar System should be more important. Looking for extra-solar planets should be more important. Galactic census missions should be more important. Studies of Sgr A* and the things orbiting it should be more important. Studies of distant Type 1a Supernova should be more important. etc. The ESA has considered launching a probe specifically to measure this effect with greater precision, but it didn't get funded. Perhaps you could tell us how you would probe this phenomenon, and what the various outcomes would tell us? Then we can talk about priorities. |
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Aug 29 2005, 05:25 PM
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#5
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 624 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 460 |
QUOTE (antoniseb @ Aug 26 2005, 03:42 PM) The highest priority? I think finding all substantial Earth Crossing asteroids would be more important. Basic exploration of the Solar System should be more important. Looking for extra-solar planets should be more important. Galactic census missions should be more important. Studies of Sgr A* and the things orbiting it should be more important. Studies of distant Type 1a Supernova should be more important. etc. The ESA has considered launching a probe specifically to measure this effect with greater precision, but it didn't get funded. Perhaps you could tell us how you would probe this phenomenon, and what the various outcomes would tell us? Then we can talk about priorities. Two things: 1) I would take the mother-and-hen approach suggested by Nieto. Pioneer 10 & 11 demonstrated the virtues of simple, spin stabilized, thermally balanced probes. I would add a lot of health monitoring gear, but otherwise the probes should be very simple. They should have transmitters capable of using both phase-locked loop and ultra-stable oscillator ranging frequency control, multiple bands. There should be at least two different types of chicks - one designed with a great deal of solar drag, the second fairly streamlined. Placed into identical trajectories at the same time, this would allow differentiation of unknown forces from solar wind effects. Perhaps even better would be ‘umbrella chicks’ that could trade-off between solar sail and coast modes, thus keeping the clutch together. The mother should hover close enough to calibrate and study emissivity and radiation, but distant enough not to disturb momentum. 2) If one assumes the Pioneer anomalies are real and not artifacts, there should be supportive evidence, and many fundamental implications. The solar wind may not be the only force moving objects away from the center of the solar system. Anderson had to add a linear component to the solar wind to model the acceleration of Galileo and Ulysses: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0104/0104064.pdf p21: QUOTE The radio Doppler and ranging data can be fit to the noise level with a time-varying solar constant in the fitting model [82]. We obtained values for the time-varying solar constant determined by Ulysses FIG. 10: Galileo best fit Doppler and range residuals using CHASMP. navigational data during this south polar pass [81]. The inferred solar constant is about 40 percent larger at perihelion (1.3 AU) than at Jupiter (5.2 AU), a physical impossibility! We sought an alternative explanation. Using physical parameters of the Ulysses spacecraft, we first converted the time-varying values of the solar constant to a positive (i.e., outward) radial spacecraft acceleration, ar, as a function of heliocentric radius. (my bold) Throw a spring constant into elliptical orbits, as Anderson did to model Ulysses, and all hell breaks loose. Fly-bys and orbits don’t return correct planetary masses, long distance navigation breaks down, and gravity anomalies crop up everywhere. Such a force is consistent with known observational facts. Figuring out if it is real should be given highest priority. |
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Aug 29 2005, 05:40 PM
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 581 Joined: 20-April 05 From: League City, Texas Member No.: 285 |
It seems to me that a simple means of checking this notion would be to track long-period comets (many of them). No spacecraft required
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Aug 29 2005, 06:12 PM
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#7
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 624 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 460 |
QUOTE (algorimancer @ Aug 29 2005, 10:40 AM) It seems to me that a simple means of checking this notion would be to track long-period comets (many of them). No spacecraft required Too wide of error bars - Comets are always outgassing, changing in mass, color, orientation. We are looking at accelerations of less than 60 ppm. Also, Radar tracking has proven to be less accurate than physical modeling suggest, as we learned from the Mars Climate orbiter and Polar Lander...perhaps Anderson's unmodeled force is the culprit. |
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remcook The Pioneer Anomaly Aug 16 2005, 04:27 PM
remcook Some background reading...
http://arxiv.org/find/... Aug 16 2005, 04:40 PM
tedstryk Won't New Horizons be spin stabilized when not... Aug 16 2005, 06:53 PM
Jeff7 QUOTE (remcook @ Aug 16 2005, 11:40 AM)Some b... Aug 17 2005, 07:09 PM
remcook Quote from alan stern:
QUOTE Yes, we spin most of... Aug 16 2005, 07:43 PM
Richard Trigaux Could not the Pioneer tapes be saved on a more mod... Aug 17 2005, 06:37 AM
remcook QUOTE It looks like the Pioneers have long stopped... Aug 17 2005, 08:09 PM
deglr6328 QUOTE (remcook @ Aug 17 2005, 08:09 PM)that... Aug 17 2005, 11:10 PM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (deglr6328 @ Aug 18 2005, 12:10 AM)Not ... Aug 18 2005, 08:24 AM
edstrick Climate orbiter was not radar tracked, it was tran... Aug 30 2005, 08:52 AM
Mongo QUOTE (edstrick @ Aug 30 2005, 08:52 AM)There... Aug 30 2005, 07:12 PM
Bob Shaw Bill:
Your links, er, don't!
Bob Shaw Aug 31 2005, 11:28 AM
Mongo That's strange; I just clicked on them and the... Aug 31 2005, 02:45 PM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (Mongo @ Aug 31 2005, 03:45 PM)That... Aug 31 2005, 03:42 PM
Mongo QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Aug 31 2005, 03:42 PM)I pro... Aug 31 2005, 03:57 PM
The Messenger I am at least as interested in the flight path ecc... Aug 31 2005, 06:56 PM
antoniseb QUOTE (The Messenger @ Aug 31 2005, 01:56 PM)... Aug 31 2005, 09:58 PM
dvandorn Hmmm... well, the effect must be very, very minor ... Aug 31 2005, 07:24 PM
Richard Trigaux Thanks to recent posters this thread took an inter... Sep 3 2005, 09:07 AM
jamescanvin QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 3 2005, 07:07 PM... Sep 5 2005, 12:13 AM
Richard Trigaux A rather interesting prospective explanation of th... Sep 3 2005, 10:07 AM
remcook some people seem to agree and applied for funding ... Sep 3 2005, 10:18 AM
The Messenger Richard's proposed test of the Pioneer Anomaly... Sep 3 2005, 05:00 PM
Richard Trigaux Messenger,
my idea was intended to detect a gravi... Sep 4 2005, 07:03 AM
Richard Trigaux The LISA observatory project will use three test m... Sep 5 2005, 08:57 AM
The Messenger All of these approaches use assumptions we should ... Sep 5 2005, 04:28 PM
jamescanvin Heading off topic but...
QUOTE (The Messenger ... Sep 6 2005, 12:17 AM
The Messenger QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 5 2005, 05:17 PM)Hea... Sep 6 2005, 05:53 AM
Richard Trigaux Thanks jamescanvin for the image and the info it c... Sep 6 2005, 06:37 AM
jamescanvin QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 6 2005, 04:37 PM... Sep 7 2005, 12:27 AM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 7 2005, 12:27 AM)Yes... Sep 7 2005, 05:42 AM
dvandorn Once again, I'm asking a question that I proba... Sep 7 2005, 07:36 AM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 7 2005, 07:36 AM)Does a... Sep 7 2005, 10:28 AM
The Messenger QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 7 2005, 03:28 AM... Sep 8 2005, 06:21 PM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (The Messenger @ Sep 8 2005, 06:21 PM)I... Sep 9 2005, 07:21 AM
The Messenger QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 9 2005, 12:21 AM... Sep 12 2005, 01:49 PM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (The Messenger @ Sep 12 2005, 01:49 PM)... Sep 12 2005, 02:23 PM
The Messenger QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 12 2005, 07:23 A... Sep 12 2005, 06:56 PM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (The Messenger @ Sep 12 2005, 06:56 PM)... Sep 13 2005, 10:15 AM
ljk4-1 QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Sep 13 2005, 05:15 A... Sep 13 2005, 01:17 PM
edstrick I'd have to check, but I think the Apollo 17 i... Sep 7 2005, 08:22 AM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (edstrick @ Sep 7 2005, 09:22 AM)The in... Sep 7 2005, 09:42 AM

dvandorn QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Sep 7 2005, 04:42 AM)Oooh, ... Sep 7 2005, 06:33 PM

Bob Shaw QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 7 2005, 07:33 PM)Oh, th... Sep 7 2005, 08:47 PM
dvandorn QUOTE (edstrick @ Sep 7 2005, 03:22 AM)I... Sep 7 2005, 06:41 PM
edstrick When the gravimeter was proposed, selected and des... Sep 7 2005, 10:38 AM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (edstrick @ Sep 7 2005, 10:38 AM)When t... Sep 7 2005, 02:38 PM
edstrick "From what I understand, though, even with th... Sep 8 2005, 10:49 AM
edstrick It has been hoped that cosmic sources of gravitati... Sep 9 2005, 07:45 AM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (edstrick @ Sep 9 2005, 07:45 AM)As far... Sep 9 2005, 08:17 AM
The Messenger Suggestions, by anyone, of engineering on this sca... Sep 13 2005, 04:16 PM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (The Messenger @ Sep 13 2005, 04:16 PM)... Sep 13 2005, 06:06 PM
The Messenger Returning to the Pioneer Anomally:
You may or may... Sep 14 2005, 03:31 PM
Richard Trigaux Messenger, yes the Earth does have a "gravita... Sep 14 2005, 03:46 PM
ljk4-1 http://www.issi.unibe.ch/teams/Pioneer/
The Pione... Oct 3 2005, 04:46 AM
edstrick ljk4-1: "...The Pioneer Explorer Collaboratio... Oct 3 2005, 07:15 AM
Richard Trigaux Thanks ljk4-1 for your interesting contribution. A... Oct 3 2005, 08:15 AM
deglr6328 sooooo did the planetary soc. get the data or what... Oct 3 2005, 09:53 AM
elakdawalla QUOTE (deglr6328 @ Oct 3 2005, 02:53 AM)soooo... Nov 10 2005, 01:29 AM
ljk4-1 QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Nov 9 2005, 08:29 PM) We... Nov 10 2005, 02:33 PM
elakdawalla QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Nov 10 2005, 07:33 AM)De... Nov 10 2005, 04:46 PM
edstrick <grin> by "anomaly" I mean an ord... Oct 3 2005, 09:57 AM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (edstrick @ Oct 3 2005, 09:57 AM)<gr... Oct 3 2005, 12:40 PM
edstrick Aliens?... I thought it was the CIA and FBI.... or... Oct 4 2005, 06:27 AM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (edstrick @ Oct 4 2005, 06:27 AM)Aliens... Oct 4 2005, 07:37 AM
edstrick You know what the problem is with make-believe par... Oct 4 2005, 10:51 AM
Richard Trigaux QUOTE (edstrick @ Oct 4 2005, 10:51 AM)You kn... Oct 4 2005, 04:41 PM
ljk4-1 Astrophysics, abstract
astro-ph/0504367
From: Gary... Oct 4 2005, 07:35 PM
ljk4-1 Paper: astro-ph/0506281
replaced with revised ve... Oct 26 2005, 02:08 PM
ljk4-1 Paper (*cross-listing*): gr-qc/0511026
Date: Sun... Nov 9 2005, 04:32 PM
Myran Calculations using the 'MOND' theory (Modi... Nov 9 2005, 09:10 PM
Richard Trigaux I wonder if we could do any theory of any kind, ad... Nov 9 2005, 09:21 PM
mike That's what a theory is. Nov 9 2005, 09:42 PM
Myran QUOTE Richard Trigaux said: I wonder if we could d... Nov 10 2005, 05:21 AM
lyford Call me old fashioned, but I am a bit wary of jett... Nov 10 2005, 06:41 AM
The Messenger QUOTE (lyford @ Nov 9 2005, 11:41 PM)Call me ... Nov 10 2005, 04:44 PM
lyford QUOTE (The Messenger @ Nov 10 2005, 08:44 AM)... Nov 10 2005, 10:06 PM
ljk4-1 Astrophysics, abstract
astro-ph/0505310
From: Mic... Dec 20 2005, 04:05 PM
ljk4-1 General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract... Jan 3 2006, 02:31 AM
tfisher I just read through the last paper linked. They... Jan 3 2006, 07:10 AM
ljk4-1 Paper: astro-ph/0504367
Date (v1): Sun, 17 Apr 20... Jan 4 2006, 06:18 PM
tasp I bet it is not as simple as this, but I will pos... Jan 5 2006, 04:14 AM
mchan QUOTE (tasp @ Jan 4 2006, 08:14 PM)Any possib... Jan 5 2006, 06:06 AM
ugordan QUOTE (mchan @ Jan 5 2006, 07:06 AM)One probl... Jan 5 2006, 08:52 AM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (ugordan @ Jan 5 2006, 09:52 AM)Wasn... Jan 5 2006, 01:16 PM
ljk4-1 Can New Horizons participate in this experiment? ... Jan 5 2006, 02:22 PM
djellison QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 5 2006, 02:22 PM)Can... Jan 5 2006, 02:43 PM
ugordan QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 5 2006, 03:43 PM)That... Jan 5 2006, 02:50 PM
tasp If an objection to putting a Voyager into a slow s... Jan 5 2006, 02:45 PM
djellison Damn good point actually UG - hadnt thought of tha... Jan 5 2006, 02:58 PM
ugordan QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 5 2006, 03:58 PM)Then ... Jan 5 2006, 03:05 PM
NMRguy QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Feb 23 2005, 09:20 AM)Yes... Jan 5 2006, 05:19 PM
AlexBlackwell QUOTE (NMRguy @ Jan 5 2006, 05:19 PM)Alan add... Jan 5 2006, 05:56 PM
tty QUOTE (ugordan @ Jan 5 2006, 05:05 PM)Might h... Jan 5 2006, 06:47 PM![]() ![]() |
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