[X] My Assistant

[spfrss]

As usual, NASA is embarking names onboard DAWN for the trip to Vesta and Ceres

http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/DawnCommunity/Sen...teroid_blt.aspx

live long and prosper

Mauro

[ljk4-1]

As usual, NASA is embarking names onboard DAWN for the trip to Vesta and Ceres

http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/DawnCommunity/Sen...teroid_blt.aspx

live long and prosper

Mauro

And as I have said before, I think NASA et al should be utilizing these information discs being sent into space for ages for something more important and interesting than just a bunch of names.

See here:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...indpost&p=19752

Plus the medium they continue to use - CD-ROMs and DVDs - will be destroyed by the natural radiation of space within just a few centuries at most.

[Marz]

And as I have said before, I think NASA et al should be utilizing these information discs being sent into space for ages for something more important and interesting than just a bunch of names.

See here:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...indpost&p=19752

Plus the medium they continue to use - CD-ROMs and DVDs - will be destroyed by the natural radiation of space within just a few centuries at most.

As you mentioned, not only does the medium degrade, but I think even a trickier information-storage problem is the technology to read the "ancient" formats is lost rather quickly. 50 years from now, people will shake their heads at the idea we had to make due with 2-dimensional memory store. Even if someone could find/build a CD-ROM reader 100 years from now, the idea of flying out to Ceres to nab historical documents is still a huge expense. Case in point, try to find a punch-card reader.

This is an interesting idea, though. I'm sure librarians fret about how to archive digital stuff, and probably have some good ideas on how/what to archive. Perhaps someone would be interested in building a time-capsule that floats in a degrading orbit that parachutes/falls back to earth in 150 years or so?

[Bob Shaw]

It's the thought that counts. The US flags erected by the Apollo astronauts bleached and decayed within a few years, as did the LM descent stage markings. While what Gene Shoemaker famously called 'the Nixon Experiment' wasn't to everyone's taste (not least the Soviet Union!) it *did* reflect something of the nature of the time, and the nations involved. Now, we have an open and inclusive attempt to inspire people, and it's that message which is important, even if the actual medium - like the Apollo flags - decays.

Oh, and as for the data being 'lost' - fear not. Whether or not an AI Singularity is just round the corner, as some suggest, a Data Singularity certainly is - soon enough, data storage and retreival will be so enormously more available than at present that in effect all data will always be available, for ever. To catalogue it *is* another matter, but something straightforward like a CD-worth of 'hellos' will be no problem at all! So, fear not - once data is truly digital, it will be with us forever - it's just the quasi-analogue stuff which will be iffy, and even that will be recoverable if anyone wants it.

[ljk4-1]

I understand what you are saying, Bob, but in addition to the real possibility that no one will be able to read our present computer-stored data in the future, I have serious concerns that anything stored on Earth, even in multiple places, will not last as long as something sent into space.

This is why I say that for a relatively minimum amount of effort, important historical data should be placed on deep space probes *in addition* to the cutesy and promotional signatures and inane messages.

We spend millions to put those probes into the Cosmos, a few extra monetary units can be afforded to preserve part of our culture. Because quite frankly, I have serious doubts about how well our records and other pertinent information is being treated on Earth.

[djellison]

This is why I say that for a relatively minimum amount of effort, important historical data should be placed on deep space probes *in addition* to the cutesy and promotional signatures and inane messages. 

Consider the 4 big budget genuinely deep space missions ( Voyager 1, 2 and Pioneer 10 and 11 ) - they have included imporant data.

But a mission constrained to the solar system, well, it's pointless.

Doug

[mchan]

Consider the 4 big budget genuinely deep space missions ( Voyager 1, 2 and Pioneer 10 and 11 ) - they have included imporant data.

But a mission constrained to the solar system, well, it's pointless.

Doug

New Horizons doesn't have an interstellar record or a plaque. But then Sagan wasn't around to press the case.

[djellison]

But then Sagan wasn't around to press the case. 

And neither is the cash - this isnt a BIG budget mission.

I appreciated the motive, but to be honest, there's little point in putting something on NH as no one's going to see it again. There's no point putting something on a solar system spacecraft because if someone does see it again, they've come from this planet to see it.

And it may seem like a fickle, quick, easy thing to impliment, but you would not BELIEVE how much it would cost to flight qualify and buid something to bolt on there.

Doug

[mchan]

And neither is the cash - this isnt a BIG budget mission.

I appreciated the motive, but to be honest, there's little point in putting something on NH as no one's going to see it again.  There's no point putting something on a solar system spacecraft because if someone does see it again, they've come from this planet to see it.

And it may seem like a fickle, quick, easy thing to impliment, but you would not BELIEVE how much it would cost to flight qualify and buid something to bolt on there.

Doug

I tried but was unable to find the cost to produce the Voyager interstellar record. Any readers know?

NH is not BIG budget in the Galileo, Cassini, or even the Voyager sense, but at $650 million, its budget is about 80% of the MER project (both rovers). I would guess NH is more expensive than Pioneer 10/11 which carried the plaque.

Agreed the point is almost entirely symbolic, and it is much harder to justify expenditures for symbolism only. I suspect the mass penalty of anything larger than the signature CD is also an inhibitor. Still, I wondered if an organization like the Planetary Society might have used volunteer labor and donated funds to do something like the Voyager interstellar record. The record was already qualified to fly on Voyager. I am curious what it would have cost to have another flight copy made.

[ljk4-1]

I tried but was unable to find the cost to produce the Voyager interstellar record.  Any readers know?

NH is not BIG budget in the Galileo, Cassini, or even the Voyager sense, but at $650 million, its budget is about 80% of the MER project (both rovers).  I would guess NH is more expensive than Pioneer 10/11 which carried the plaque.

Agreed the point is almost entirely symbolic, and it is much harder to justify expenditures for symbolism only.  I suspect the mass penalty of anything larger than the signature CD is also an inhibitor.  Still, I wondered if an organization like the Planetary Society might have used volunteer labor and donated funds to do something like the Voyager interstellar record.  The record was already qualified to fly on Voyager.  I am curious what it would have cost to have another flight copy made.

While I do not have monetary figures for the Voyager Records, I can tell you that a lot of the work was on a voluntary basis from Sagan and his team, using local resources.

If the signatures will be on a chip on Dawn, then good, that means there is room for another medium to carry information of substance.

[djellison]

While I do not have monetary figures for the Voyager Records, I can tell you that a lot of the work was on a voluntary basis from Sagan and his team, using local resources.

If the signatures will be on a chip on Dawn, then good, that means there is room for another medium to carry information of substance.

For what purpose? It'll just be sat in the inner solar system, probably end up getting crashed onto an asteroid as an extended mission. If the ability ever exists to find and retrieve it, then we'll have no need for the information.

PS - you can be the one to take a few tens of grammes of RCS prop. out to carry the mass of your info-store at the expense of a few extra days of extended operations

As a Plan.Soc. member, yes, I'd support spending money for the adition of information to misisons leaving the solar system, but I would rather not see money wasted in doing similar exercises for inner solar system missions.

Doug

[ljk4-1]

For what purpose? It'll just be sat in the inner solar system, probably end up getting crashed onto an asteroid as an extended mission. If the ability ever exists to find and retrieve it, then we'll have no need for the information.

PS - you can be the one to take a few tens of grammes of RCS prop. out to carry the mass of your info-store at the expense of a few extra days of extended operations

As a Plan.Soc. member, yes, I'd support spending money for the adition of information to misisons leaving the solar system, but I would rather not see money wasted in doing similar exercises for inner solar system missions.

Doug

I must disagree with you on the subject of future generations having all relevant information on our era. Hundreds of years from now (or longer), our descendants will have an incomplete picture of us, and it won't take a nuclear war or comet strike to lose records of our civilization. Information preserved off Earth, especially in the accessible reaches of our Sol system, will be appreciated by future historians. And at relatively little expense to us, despite claims to the contrary. Especially if the right folks volunteer for the task, as was done with the Voyager Records.

Indeed, if our descendants are exploring and colonzing our system, they will likely know FAR more about the worlds around Sol than about us. So which do you think will be more valuable to them?

One good question: Where is The Planetary Society's stance on this? I can't recall the last time I heard them supporting anything more than the usual names on a disc/chip publicity stunt. But please prove me wrong here.

Thankfully the Europeans and select US groups have seen the merit of this idea.

They placed a disc containing samples of one thousand human languages on the Rosetta comet mission.

This ESA article, complete with images, contains an excerpt which sums it up quite well:

http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/in...fobjectid=31242

"The Long Now Foundation is trying to preserve the world's languages for future generations and we are happy to carry the disk on the Rosetta spacecraft in order to ensure that the archive survives for posterity," said John Ellwood (Rosetta Project Manager).

How will Rosetta offer such an enduring home for Earth's linguistic legacy?

"Rosetta will be following a stable orbit that will enable it to circle the Sun for thousands of years," explained Gerhard Schwehm (Rosetta Project Scientist).

"Effectively, the spacecraft may become also a linguistic treasure trove comparable to the first Rosetta Stone."

While linguists on Earth struggle to keep the rich heritage of global languages alive, the Rosetta spacecraft will preserve a record of current linguistic diversity far into the future - long after its speakers are gone and many of their languages are forgotten.

[djellison]

Hundreds of years from now (or longer), our descendants will have an incomplete picture of us,

I disagree.

Yes - we have a very poor understanding of anything other than recent history, but because the means to record, archive and document things that happened did not exist in the way it does today.

Doug

[ljk4-1]

I disagree. 

Yes - we have a very poor understanding of anything other than recent history, but because the means to record, archive and document things that happened did not exist in the way it does today.

Doug

And it still will not be complete, plus you cannot be certain that something won't happen to destroy many of our records - a totalitarian regime that wants to rewrite history in its favor ala 1984. With less than 30% of the current nations being only nominally democratic, this scenario is entirely possible.

Once again - a few disks that could contain so much information could be safely preserved on deep spacecraft for ages, and for the ages. I can't believe I have to keep arguing this.

Thank [insert deity here] Sagan and his people were around in the 1970s to at least get something of substance on our first interstellar probes.

[punkboi]

And it still will not be complete, plus you cannot be certain that something won't happen to destroy many of our records - a totalitarian regime that wants to rewrite history in its favor ala 1984.  With less than 30% of the current nations being only nominally democratic, this scenario is entirely possible.

Once again - a few disks that could contain so much information could be safely preserved on deep spacecraft for ages, and for the ages.  I can't believe I have to keep arguing this. 

Thank [insert deity here] Sagan and his people were around in the 1970s to at least get something of substance on our first interstellar probes.

Oh, and let's applaud NASA for placing 616,400 names onboard the Cassini probe...which will eventually go the way of Galileo and take a nice fiery trip through Saturn's atmosphere at the end of its mission.