Another Rotini?, A new picture of Bounce Rock Options

[SCGuy]

I think I see something in one of the latest Bounce Rock pictures. I have circled the area where I think I see another Rotini. I am sure some of you guys have photo enhancement abilities good enough to see if I really see something.
This is my first post. Please forgive my mistakes. But take a look!

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[Shimon]

I think your seeing things.

[djellison]

I think your seeing things.

ditto

Doug

[gregp1962]

Have we yet heard what those rotini's are?

[EckJerome]

Have we yet heard what those rotini's are?

I've heard that they've seen similar features in more than one RATting. That being a piece of evidence that the rotinis are merely a product or the RATting process...much like curly wood or metal shavings that can be seen on the floor or around the cutting tools in any shop.

If you're hoping to hear the F word (fossil), these rovers are simply not capable of making that determination.

As a mechanical designer familiar with machining processes, I find the first explanation entirely plausible.

Eric

[gregp1962]

Yes ECK,

Your explanation makes sense. Have we verified that we have only seen these at rattting sites? I wonder if anyone has been able to reproduce them on earth.

I spent a few weeks in another Mars Rover forum. In that forum these were alot of people claiming to see fossils. Some of the claims were so outrgeous that I quit posting there.

There were, however, a few pictures that looked like some explanation was necessary.

[EckJerome]

I don't know what's been verified, I'm just relaying what I've heard at the rover briefings. I'm pretty sure they saw rotinis only on RATted surfaces...but, personally, I've only seen the one clear picture of a rotini myself. They mentioned doing experiments with the testbed rover they have at JPL, to try and duplicate what they see. No idea if they have learned anything from that, but the bottom line at the briefing is that they just don't know what they are.

I also tire of the legions of amatuer paleontologists in other forums. I've quickly come to realize that there is no point in debating them. Indeed, there are intriguing bits to be seen in many images. Explanations for some may be forthcoming, though I'm guessing most will have to be left for future missions to study in greater detail.

[ljk4-1]

System Maps Microfossils in 3-D

Summary - (Wed, 01 Feb 2006) Paleobiologists have produced 3-D images of ancient fossils - 650 to 850 million years old - embedded within rocks. This astounding accomplishment uses a technique called Raman spectroscopy, which allows scientists to see the structure of these ancient fossils in three-dimensions.

This could be useful for future rock samples returned from Mars since would allow scientists to detect and analyze microfossils without actually damaging them.

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/3d...ing.html?122006

[ljk4-1]

Life leaves subtle signature in the lay of the land, UC Berkeley researchers report

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=18910

"One of the paradoxes of recent explorations of the Martian surface is that the more we see of the planet, the more it looks like Earth, despite a very big difference: Complex life forms have existed for billions of years on Earth, while Mars never saw life bigger than a microbe, if that."

[disownedsky]

I think I see something in one of the latest Bounce Rock pictures. I have circled the area where I think I see another Rotini. I am sure some of you guys have photo enhancement abilities good enough to see if I really see something.
This is my first post. Please forgive my mistakes. But take a look!

Don't see it. Bounce was identified as impact ejectum, and wasn't the same sort of rock in which the first "rotini" was observed anyway.

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

I think it is a bit easy to take any random shaped blot, at the limit of visibility, and state it is a fossil. Of course it could be, but in the instance it is impossible to state. However Bounce is a magmatic rock, we don't expect to see fossils in there.

[Guest_Oersted_*]

I think I see a rotino (or whatever it is in singular!) in this image, is it just me?

[bedrockshock]

I now believe the rotini, are a bi-product of Rating. As a machinist of many years I would not have believed an abrasive process could produce such a chip-like structure. Its typically a powder. When the first rotini appeared I discussed this with my boss whom agreed with me that it did not seem possible. A short time later I would attempt to produce some examples of Rated rocks to show along with a talk I would give to some local amateur astronomers and a local public library about the making of the Rock Abrasion Tool for which we built the majority of parts for Honeybee Robotics. I choose some ordovician rocks I had because of their vuggy natue. At the time the meridiani evaporite stuff with the chicken scratch appearance interested me. Of course my methods differed on the equipment used but I duplicated the diameter and depth of a Rat hole using a diamond tool different than the Rats. It was not my goal to simulate exact conditions. One hole I made in a piece of vuggy sandstone ended with quite a surprise. Near the finishing point I noticed a drop of oil about to fall into the works. Machinery frequently has oil. Much to my surprise a curled chip instantly formed as the oil met the powder and the tool passed over it. I picked it up in disbelief. In machining, a chip forms along an edge as a cutting tool passes over it. Since the Rat holes are not on an edge either vugs or uneven surface contact would allow a curl to start. My interest in the Rotini changed to what type moisture that could have helped produce the chip from the powder.

Mike Farley
Round Rock, Texas

[Bob Shaw]

I now believe the rotini, are a bi-product of Rating.  As a machinist of many years I would not have believed an abrasive process could produce such a chip-like structure.  Its typically a powder.  When the first rotini appeared I discussed this with my boss whom agreed with me that it did not seem possible.  A short time later I would attempt to produce some examples of Rated rocks to show along with a talk I would give to some local amateur astronomers and a local public library about the making of the Rock Abrasion Tool for which we built the majority of parts for Honeybee Robotics.  I choose some ordovician rocks I had because of their vuggy natue.  At the time the meridiani evaporite stuff with the chicken scratch appearance interested me.  Of course my methods differed on the equipment used but I duplicated the diameter and depth of a Rat hole using a diamond tool different than the Rats.  It was not my goal to simulate exact conditions.  One hole I made in a piece of vuggy sandstone ended with quite a surprise.  Near the finishing point I noticed a drop of oil about to fall into the works.  Machinery frequently has oil.  Much to my surprise a curled chip instantly formed as the oil met the powder and the tool passed over it.  I picked it up in disbelief.  In machining, a chip forms along an edge as a cutting tool passes over it.  Since the Rat holes are not on an edge either vugs or uneven surface contact would allow a curl to start.  My interest in the Rotini changed to what type moisture that could have helped produce the chip from the powder.

Mike Farley
Round Rock, Texas

Mike:

Sounds like you nailed it - and the moisture question is one discussed here previously. Any pseudo-RAT rotini pictures?

Bob Shaw

[lyford]

To dispel further mis-indentification, perhaps we should start calling it a RATini.