[X] My Assistant

[RNeuhaus]

This topic is for posts concerning to any preparation of Phoenix Lander Mission to Mars programmed to launch on August 2007 (less than 2 years... but the time will fly)

http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/future/phoenix.html

Overview

The Phoenix mission is the first chosen for NASA's Scout program, an initiative for smaller, lower-cost, competed spacecraft. Named for the resilient mythological bird, Phoenix uses a lander that was intended for use by 2001's Mars Surveyor lander prior to its cancellation. It also carries a complex suite of instruments that are improved variations of those that flew on the lost Mars Polar Lander.

Canada Will Land Instrument On Mars To Study Weather

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-future-05t.html

Rodolfo

[djellison]

It'll be nice to try and pin down how much of the MPL and Beagle 2 hardware is on the floor - and I've REALLY scoured the MOC imagery in the direction of the alleged MPF backshell ( and thus chute ) with no luck.

Here's one - is 'second colour' of the flight chutes orange for a reason. Blue would seem the obvious choice, and I'm sure I've seen white+blue chutes being tested somewhere.

Doug

[helvick]

Here's one - is 'second colour' of the flight chutes orange for a reason. Blue would seem the obvious choice, and I'm sure I've seen white+blue chutes being tested somewhere.

Way out there question - wouldn't it be better to have the second colour something that flouresces - that should cause a chute to be even more visible?

[climber]

I hope we get some good shots of VL-2, VL-1 and MPF from HiRISE. On none of these missions have we "found" the backshell and parachute (MPL too of course). I have some EDL questions from those missions that s good HiRISE pict will clear up.
-Rob

Rob,
I wonder what you can learn from HiRISE images now that you've seen Oppy's backshell from THAT close, I mean even with the microscope?
Would you mind telling us a few words about what you've learnt from Oppy's exploration of her backsell?
Thanks for your very interesting inputs. It's good to speculate here, but once in a while, we need to know the reality

[djellison]

They saw the heatshield up close....but not the chute and backshell

And I still think the opportunity for a self portrait in the reflective insulation on the heatshield was a tragic miss
Doug

[climber]

And I still think the opportunity for a self portrait in the reflective insulation on the heatshield was a tragic miss
Doug

Oh yes I fully agree. I hope we'll not miss this with MSL. The Crane will be large enough to find a place of reflection, and it will land not very far. May be not too late to think about this. Even of no scientific value, the image will be very inspiring, and not only for UMSF'ers. A very wild idea would be to provide MSL with a mirror she can position with her IDD for self portrait. A mirror can also be used to survey places otherwise not reachable by the cameras. This would have may be of some help back at Purgatory.

[djellison]

Ahh - I don't think I would want to get close to the decent stage of MSL....pressurised tanks....nasty chemicals... a heatshield is fairly benign thing to visit, but a parachute, and a crashed pressurised decent stage...I'm not so sure....

On the upside, Mastcam's got a fair chunk of zoom on it, so we won't need to get too close

Doug

[climber]

Ahh - I don't think I would want to get close to the decent stage of MSL....pressurised tanks....nasty chemicals... a heatshield is fairly benign thing to visit, but a parachute, and a crashed pressurised decent stage...I'm not so sure....
Doug

MSL will have a laser that'll KILL the Crane from a distance.

[Jim from NSF.com]

As said before, Skycrane is not name of the "lander", it is called the descent stage. Skycrane is the name of the concept.

[MarsEngineer]

Doug and friends,

I remember asking the Pioneer gang why "international orange" and "natural white" (nylon) was used, but I do not recall the answer. I should also double check the colors from MPF and Viking. (My fading memory from MPF was that that chute had undyed dacron-like polyester fiber so had a bluish tint. I really should know for sure ...)

Other colors (like florescents) might be a good idea but there are other material property issues that have to be checked and / or tested. (e.g. outgassing during cruise).

I am glad you mentioned the MSL descent stage, given how much angst there was about driving to Opportunity's heat shield I too doubt that MSL would be allowed to get close to so much potentially caustic material. The angst I am talking about was due to the appearance of dust smotes on the rear hazcam as the rover rounded the heatshield crater on its way to the heat shield. The team was very concerned that the dust was from the heat shield char and that it would ruin the ability to use the hazcam or even the other cameras.

We were able to investigate the heat shield (as fast as we could). I do not think there are yet published reports (mostly due to everyone being busy - still), but in a nut shell we confirmed the char depth (approximately) but more importantly the close up images revealed an answer to a minor EDL mystery. There was a surprising amount of oscillation build up (but still small) in the seconds before parachute deployment. We did not know what caused it. However once we saw that there remained a small amount of outer thermal blanketing on the heat shield, we finally found our answer. (It was supposed to burn off.) The blanketing acted like an unwanted trim tab. There is a paper in the works on this one.

All and all, I would say that there always seems to be something to learn by studying the flight data and the vehicle. Pictures really help. (Ever wonder what that long yellowish tape was doing on the MPF solar panel after Sojourner was off the lander? Yep, we goofed.)


-Rob

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Comments made here are the author's and do not represent NASA Caltech nor JPL.

[MarsEngineer]

By the way, I never thought to consider a self portrait using the heatshield inner mylar blanketing as a mirror. I guess we were distracted and in a hurry to get away fromn the char dust. Oh well. (it is always thus).

-Rob

[ElkGroveDan]

VL-2, VL-1 and MPF from HiRISE. On none of these missions have we "found" the backshell and parachute

If memory serves was there not a white object identified in Pathfinder images that was likely the backshell?

As I recall there was an attempt to do a super res image of it.

[dvandorn]

I think the point was that the backshells and 'chutes from VL1, VL2 and MPF have never been seen in MOC imagery. Even though the backshell was tentatively identified in MPF surface images, nothing that looks like it (or its 'chute) has been seen in MOC images of the area, even though they're fairly certain they've identified the lander's location.

-the other Doug

[MarsEngineer]

If memory serves was there not a white object identified in Pathfinder images that was likely the backshell?

As I recall there was an attempt to do a super res image of it.

Yes and so we thought until we had the MOC C-protos of that area. The "object" turned out to be too close and too small to be a backshell. It was only a few pixels across even in the IMP super res images. It could have been a piece of an airbag cover that came off during our long (and un-measured) bounces.

Although we try not to, we tend to leave small bits when we land .. nothing an astronaut could not tidy up in a day ot two. (Ever see the cable ties from the decent bridle sitting near the base of the Pancam mast? (Spirit I think). Similar with the "bunny ears" from Opportunity (I think it was from the airbag thermal packing near the gas generators - but can not know for sure), the kapton tape on MPF (on the ground near the lander), and the fine thread (probably Vectran) in the early Opportunity microscopic images in Eagle crater. All of these are a natural but irritating side effect of landing on a foreign planet. We prefer that that they stay attached.

I think that the reason that we have not seen the backshells and parachutes is because we have not imaged in the right places yet and/or the signal-to-noise ratio at the highest MOC resolution was to low. I could be wrong, but I hope that will change with the new MRO HiRISE capabilities. I am really excietd about HiRISE.

-Rob

*******
Comments made here are the author's and do not represent NASA Caltech nor JPL.

[climber]

A few months ago, we also had thoughts about cruise stage(s) making it to the ground. Is that possibe? Did it (they) crashed down range or further ? That could be a nice target for MRO too.
Back to parachuttes; do we know about the colours of the one from Mars 3? Beagle?...

[Stephen]

The advancement and retreat of the polar cap is better observed from orbit via HiRISE .

Now there I must beg to disagree!

For one thing that statement seems to be implying that the study of the advancement and retreat of the Martian polar cap only involves studying large scale changes, the sort best observed from above; and on an intermittent basis at that (since HiRISE will not be observing the cap's advance and retreat constantly or even consistently; ie it will most likely only be able to observe the same places on an intermittent basis).

But that issue aside why should the study of the advancement and retreat of the Martian polar cap only involve cameras? Phoenix also carries a meteorogical station. Are you suggesting that there is nothing to be learned about Martian seasonal change and its interaction with the polar cap over the course of a Martian winter from data collected by such a station?

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Stephen