[X] My Assistant

[JRehling]

I wonder if something similar to Mars 2003/Phoenix might be possible, i.e. canceling the mission and then someone (possibly some other PI) might propose flying a modified version of this thing a few years from now.

One problem with not canceling Dawn is the fact that this really isn't the same mission as it was when it was selected. The magnetometer and laser altimeter have been dropped so it is possible that some of the mission against which Dawn originally was competitively selected really are better than Dawn in its present form. So flying Dawn without these instruments might be unfair to these missions.

Note, though, that the Phoenix craft was a JPL mission, so it's not quite the same thing. Some personal career glory would have ensued from the mission, even a lot, but it was a Fed project first and foremost. And Phoenix is a significant reworking of it, to say the least. And the original was grounded for a nonbudgetary reason.

I'm so eager to see the laser altimeter fly that any prospect to have the mission be eventually reworked to include it has appeal of its own.

Incidentally, what are the specs on a Ceres/Vesta trajectory should this launch window be missed? It would take a number of years for Vesta to catch back up to Ceres, but perhaps a very different flightplan could be used, even switching the order of which asteroid was visited first.

I also wonder with this mission if a third or even fourth flyby could fit in if additional budget were available. Imagine that Dawn is placed on the shelf and a Discovery proposal to use the craft asks for full Discovery funding, from the starting point of having that craft as a freebie. No other mission could compete, and the new mission could be rather ambitious, given the added funding. There may be an engineering cap on delta-v, but perhaps restoring the two lost instruments could go along with a more ambitious mission in that target-rich belt.

[Bob Shaw]

I really hope that Dawn flies, and reasonably soon - but a surprising number of spacecraft built in various countries have reached even beyond this stage and just not been flown. Until the thing is on the pad...

(sigh)

Bob Shaw

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

I also wonder with this mission if a third or even fourth flyby could fit in if additional budget were available. Imagine that Dawn is placed on the shelf and a Discovery proposal to use the craft asks for full Discovery funding, from the starting point of having that craft as a freebie. No other mission could compete, and the new mission could be rather ambitious, given the added funding.

Bjorn raised an interesting question but, like you, I think the two situations are factually distinguishable. Frankly, I have trouble seeing the realism (let alone the fairness) of resurrecting a possibly-cancelled Dawn in the Discovery 2006 solicitation à la Mars Surveyor Lander 2001->Phoenix Mars Scout. As you note, the former is a PI-led mission, while the latter was a NASA "core" mission, part of the Mars Exploration Program. Refer, for example, to the recently published NRC report.

I could very well imagine many other proposers crying foul if Dawn is cancelled in its present incarnation but the PI is allowed to re-propose the same mission under the new Discovery AO, presumably at a much lower cost than other proposers who might want to propose the same type of mission; indeed, the exact mission.

[ljk4-1]

DELTA ROCKET WORKERS SET TO VOTE ON ENDING STRIKE
-------------------------------------------------

A strike by Boeing machinists that has grounded the Delta rocket fleet for
nearly three months could be edging closer to resolution. Negotiations
between the company and union leaders have resulted in a revised contract
offer that will be put to a vote on Wednesday.

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0601/28boeingstrike/

[Guest_BruceMoomaw_*]

I got a message yesterday from Chris Russell yesterday on his possible plans for Dawn, but it's so vague and noncommittal in its information that it doesn't really tell us anything -- excpe that he apparently isn't ruling anything out, including an attempt to keep Dawn going with additional funding from a new Mission of Opportunity proposal:

"The IAT [NASA review board] did present its findings [Friday] and there are things it feels we should do to ensure mission success. We certainly are prepared to do these and move forward to launch.

"NASA officials were not planning to act on the IAT recommendations at this time. Perhaps more important than what the IAT said is whatthe president will say in just over a week. NASA needs the money to execute its science program. If that money is further constrained, many programs will have to be cut.

"The PI is quite confident that we have a successful program ready to take the last steps to launch if we are given the go-ahead. The cost of a mission of opportunity and what we have left in the bank (no we are not out of funds) certainly would launch Dawn. So why not just delay the Mission of Opportunity and invest in Dawn? Funding profile might be one issue.

"I think NASA has options, but it may also have too many problems
at once. We wait with bated breath.

"Would I propose [Dawn] again [as a whole mission]? I am very pleased with the work JPL and Orbital have done, and we have a great spacecraft ready to be tested and sent to the Cape. There are other exciting missions that could be done
with a Dawn clone and done cheaply now that we have all the procedures, requirements and software completed. The first bus is off the assembly line. The next buses could get started tomorrow. I would love to drive a 'Dawn 2' to another of our mysterious protoplanets. Yes, I would propose again."

[Bob Shaw]

Chris Russell said:

"Would I propose [Dawn] again [as a whole mission]? I am very pleased with the work JPL and Orbital have done, and we have a great spacecraft ready to be tested and sent to the Cape. There are other exciting missions that could be done
with a Dawn clone and done cheaply now that we have all the procedures, requirements and software completed. The first bus is off the assembly line. The next buses could get started tomorrow. I would love to drive a 'Dawn 2' to another of our mysterious protoplanets.  Yes, I would propose again."

Bruce:

How do you think these statements compare with the very negative responses we heard of to a clone for NH? The Pluto spacecraft is simpler, highly conservative and it's sister is half built; in addition, it's management team has managed to get it's vehicle off the ground...

...seems a bit unfair!

Bob Shaw

[Decepticon]

Bruce:

How do you think these statements compare with the very negative responses we heard of to a clone for NH? The Pluto spacecraft is simpler, highly conservative and it's sister is half built; in addition, it's management team has managed to get it's vehicle off the ground...

...seems a bit unfair!

Bob Shaw

Curious is there a thred on this?! I didn't know there was a clone probe!!

Is there any plans as to where it will be sent?

[Bob Shaw]

Curious is there a thred on this?! I didn't know there was a clone probe!!

Is there any plans as to where it will be sent?

There isn't a clone as such, but there's spare hardware already built, and a pitch was made for a NH2 flight using it. The (alleged) costings were such that it was quite uneconomic. The suggested targets were, of course, KBOs...

...and yes, it *was* discussed here!

Bob shaw

[Guest_BruceMoomaw_*]

I imagine that what Chris Russell is thinking of is that a second Dawn would be cheap enough that it could fit into the new, raised Discovery cost cap (as the first Dawn now can).

[mars loon]

I imagine that what Chris Russell is thinking of is that a second Dawn would be cheap enough that it could fit into the new, raised Discovery cost cap (as the first Dawn now can).

Well if I understood what you quoted, the first DAWN is the pathfinder. The second would naturally be somewhat easier and perhaps cheaper as a result of the normal learning curve for all aspects of the mission. Right now I'm praying for a go-ahead for the nearly complete first DAWN to visit these exciting miniplanets.

[peter59]

This is incomprehensible to me. Dawn may be cancelled, but congress approved next 6.2 billion dollars for ISS and pseudo-experiments like this SuitSat experiment.

SuitSat experiment

Spirit, Cassini, New Horizons and Dawn it's real space exploration. Gravity Probe B it's real great scientific experiment !

SuitSat and other "great" ISS's experiments (mostly biological), it's scientific humbug. Wasted 100 billion dollars and counting, therefore no money for Down, no money for real science.

[nprev]

I sincerely hope that NASA will allocate the resources needed to fix the propulsion system problems & get this bird out where it belongs; I understand that the final decision has not yet been made.

If Dawn gets semipermanently mothballed for lack of needed support by NASA and not for unrecoverable technical problems, I suggest that we petition the Planetary Society to campaign for Dawn's salvation. TPS has the muscle; New Horizons proved that!!!

[dvandorn]

This is incomprehensible to me. Dawn may be cancelled, but congress approved next 6.2 billion dollars for ISS and pseudo-experiments like this SuitSat experiment.

SuitSat experiment

Spirit, Cassini, New Horizons and Dawn it's real space exploration. Gravity Probe B it's real great scientific experiment !

SuitSat and other "great" ISS's experiments (mostly biological), it's scientific humbug. Wasted 100 billion dollars and counting, therefore no money for Down, no money for real science.

First: SuitSat was NOT in any way a NASA-funded experiment. So, your first statement is not truthful.

Second: Your second statement is truthful, but you contradict it with your third statement, which is not truthful. If there is no money for real science, where did the money for Spirit (and Oppy, too!), Cassini and New Horizons come from? Much less the money for MRO, LRO, MSL, and all the other missions out there, present and future?

Dawn has already cost nearly half a BILLION dollars -- that's not "no money" for Dawn. That's a LOT of money for Dawn.

It is completely acceptable to ask the question, how much more than a half a billion dollars ought we have to spend for a mini-tour of the asteroid belt? And can you state, with a straight face, that ISS and Shutle are responsible for the fact that the Dawn project team has been unable to provide a *working* spacecraft for the half-billion dollars they've already spent on it?

If you want to know why money for Dawn is drying up, don't look at $6 billion for ISS/Shuttle activities -- look at a half a TRILLION dollars to fight a war in Iraq. Or look at $85 billion spent so far on reconstruction after Katrina and about five other major hurricanes that struck the U.S. in 2005. Those two little, minor funding drains have had just a *little* more of an impact on the U.S. budget than U.S. manned spaceflight -- like several orders of magnitude more of an impact.

I want to see Dawn fly, too. But I am sick to death of seeing the manned spaceflight program being blamed for the Dawn team's inability to get their spacecraft built and working for the amount of money they *promised* it would cost. It's simply not a truthful argument, and must therefore be rejected.

-the other Doug

[djellison]

DV - spot on.

Doug

[gpurcell]

This is incomprehensible to me. Dawn may be cancelled, but congress approved next 6.2 billion dollars for ISS and pseudo-experiments like this SuitSat experiment.

SuitSat experiment

Spirit, Cassini, New Horizons and Dawn it's real space exploration. Gravity Probe B it's real great scientific experiment !

SuitSat and other "great" ISS's experiments (mostly biological), it's scientific humbug. Wasted 100 billion dollars and counting, therefore no money for Down, no money for real science.

Just to pile on a bit, you should realize that Gravity Probe B...is probably not the best example for you to bring up, for reasons of economy and of scientific merit. I'll just leave it at that.