[X] My Assistant

[dot.dk]

All the latest MI images from Opportunity shows this part of the rover:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...KCP2957M1M1.JPG

The only thing I can think of is that it is an image taken with the IDD stowed.

Actually the front hazcam pictures confirms this. What can the reason for this be?

A problem with the IDD so it didn't unstow, but somehow the MI carried out its tasks?

[Bill Harris]

Does not look good, dot.dk. Those "odd" MI images were taken first over a period of an hour and then again 4 hours later. It does look like the IDD won't unstow and the dust cover is still in place.

Let me dig and find the planned task sequence for that Sol.

--Bill

[Bill Harris]

From http://marswatch.astro.cornell.edu/merweb/merweb.pl , here is part of the tracking report:



1. What new EDRs from ANY sol were received on sol 654?

Number of EDRs received by sol, sequence number, and image type:

Sol Seq.Ver ETH ESF EDN EFF ERP Tot Description
--- -------- --- --- --- --- --- ---- -----------
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2956.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_high_DNTH2000
<snip>


I don't know what the interpretation of this is, so I'll leave it to others.

--Bill

[Decepticon]

Are there anymore pics like this?

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

If the sequence to deploy and carefully postion the IDD arm hadn't worked, would the sequence designed to take the images have started? I would have thought it wouldn't - just a guess though.

6. What unexpected sequences ran? (that is, sequences we did not enter in the SSF
list file /home/mersci/pan/B/ops/Sol_all_seq_list.txt)

No unexpected sequences run.

Thats the only problem with the pancam tracking site - lots of information, we just dont know how to interpret much of it lol.

Also......I don't think i've seen so many MI's taken in a single sol as this one.

[Jeff7]

Maybe they're checking for changes in dust deposition over a period of time?
Even that seems an odd way to do it though, and not very effective. Wonder if someone just forgot a command when programming the sequence.

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

We've been at this site for about 3 days, and the IDD hasn't been deployed yet which seems a little unusual to me, its normally deployed almost immediately. Maybe those images were intended to see if there was any reason why it waas stuck

[OWW]

We've been at this site for about 3 days, and the IDD hasn't been deployed yet which seems a little unusual to me, its normally deployed almost immediately.  Maybe those images were intended to see if there was any reason why it waas stuck   

I don't think so. The reason they took those front hazcam pics is that the IDD is supposed to do its stuff. And who needs 33 MI-pictures of the same area for an inspection?
I think the computer sees some restriction for the arm and therefore doesn't move it. Either that, or the arm is stuck for some reason. Let's wait and see what happens after the weekend.

[Cugel]

Even more MI pictures came down.... all the same.
On the forward hazcam pictures of yesterday you can see some small position changes in the arm. But the pictures of today show no movement (let alone deployment) of the arm at all. I think we can 'officially' declare an emergency situation here.
Start speculating about the value of this mission without the IDD?
We still have pancam and MiniTes of course.

[Bill Harris]

The mission is valuable. Oppy still has mobility and the Haz-, Nav- and Pancams. We've simply misplaced our handlens and scratch-plate. There may be a solution to this problem, but for the time being, the arm be stuck...

--Bill

[akuo]

A bit early to declare emegency without any info from JPL. It might be a simple sequencing error by the mission planners, after which they let Oppy be as she is for the weekend because of holidays and the weekend. Even if there was a problem, they probably wouldn't start debugging it until monday.

[RNeuhaus]

The Oppy might have experienced any problems with the IDD and have performed a safety reset: SAFE MODE. After this reset, it will clear any software bug that might have stuck the arms and facilite the engineering rover to analyze the origins of the problem.

I don't think that the arms might have been broken because of any strike on the surface because the IDD is is proctected by the safety margin algorithm software. I think it so. It is logical to incorporate that software to MER in order to protect of the valuable instrument against any accident strikes on the surface.

Hope that won't ham to the instruments of the arm then.

Rodolfo

[Guest_Edward Schmitz_*]

It is more likely a sequence problem than a hardware problem. If the arm didn't do what it was instructed to do, the sequence would have been aborted. Let's wait and see what JPL has to say before we get too worried.

[tty]

On the other hand there have been a couple of glitches with Opportunity's IDD before, which might be due to hardware problems (cable fraying) (see Steve Squyres transcript). I suppose this would make JPL extra cautious before trying anything if there are problems. Having the IDD stick in the folded position would be bad, but not catastrophic. Having it stick in the deployed position would be much worse.

tty

[CosmicRocker]

I'm not sure what this means, or if it even means anything. I won't suggest this is anything significant, because I can't interpret a lot of the stuff in the pancam tracking reports. But I went back to the last sol when MIs were taken, Sol 649. There was an "unexpected sequence," but it seems to be associated with a front hazcam image. However, that image was from command sequence P1110, which is always for front hazcam shots of the IDD in action.

Can anyone else interpret the tracking report better than I can? Any ideas?

[Guest_BruceMoomaw_*]

They have had a large number of rather mysterious computer resets recently on MER-B, according to Doug McCuistion. (Some of them seem to be associated with the Mini-TES, for which reason it is now infrequently used.)

[Tesheiner]

According to the planned sequences, sol 655 would be dedicated to the Mossbauer Spectrometer, but once again the IDD is missing in the hazcam pics.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all...CP1131L0M1.HTML

---
655 p1131.04 2 0 2 0 0 4 f_haz_idd_mb_doc_512x512x1bpp_vhigh
---

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

We just have to accept that this far into the mission things are likely to breakdown But loosing 4 science instruments at once is a major blow.

[Tesheiner]

I'm of the opinion that this "hiccup" is related to a sequencing error.
But we (me at least) don't have enough information to be sure.

I think the best will be just to wait for some news update from JPL and/or Cornell.

[Toma B]

Of course there is always a good side in this situation...

I know this might anger some of you guys...but if IDD arm is permanently stuck , then Opportunity will just have to drive a lot more...and maybe drive all the way to that awesome Victoria crater which is great isn't it?

[Tesheiner]

Someone at the "other" forum remarked that something similar happened to Spirit on sol 150.
Here is the MER status report about the issue: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/sta...All.html#sol148

Spirit used its alpha particle X-ray spectrometer and Mössbauer spectrometer to observe a rock called "Joshua" on sol 150. Unfortunately, the rest of the sol's planned work with the instrument deployment device did not take place because of a command anomaly, which made Spirit think that a collision between the rock abrasion tool and the forearm might occur. Therefore, the tool change and all subsequent arm motions were prevented for the rest of the sol.

Spirit was back to business on sol 151, and finished observing Joshua and the science magnets with the tools on the instrument deployment device. After that, the rover was off, and successfully completed a 73-meter (240 feet) drive toward the Columbia Hills.

[Cugel]

Someone at the "other" forum remarked that something similar happened to Spirit on sol 150.
Here is the MER status report about the issue: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/sta...All.html#sol148

Hope you're right, but how similar is similar?
Did Spirit take 56 identical MI images in a stowed position?

[Bill Harris]

Thanks, Tesheiner, I seemed to recall an earlier anomaly but couldn't remember the details.

To confirm what we have assumed what we see, I found an MI image from Sol 002 taken with the IDD stowed; it shows the same objects in the field of view that we see now. The dust cover was open, so the image is clearer (I suspect that the dust cover now has a coating of dust). The right front wheel can be seen in the background as this image was taken before the wheels were unfolded into the working position.

Interesting to browse those first images...

--Bill

[Tesheiner]

OT: Look how clean is that wheel!

[Bill Harris]

OT^2 : But considering that the wheel has turned over 5000 times during 4Km of travel, it is quite unworn today!

--Bill

[Guest_Edward Schmitz_*]

The difference in the previous anomoly is that the sequence aborted. In this case we have 50+ images of the rover. If the arm were simply stuck, it shouldn't have done anything else.

Something else is happening. I'm voting for poorly constructed sequence.

ed

[edstrick]

Note that this problem has occurred during the 4 day Thanksgiving Holiday Weekend in the US. I assume they parked both rovers at nice outcrops and planned LONG Mossbauer integrations and the like... basically a 4 or 5 day pre-programmed sequence so people could have most of the weekend off.

[Toma B]

Note that this problem has occurred during the 4 day Thanksgiving Holiday Weekend in the US.  I assume they parked both rovers at nice outcrops and planned LONG Mossbauer integrations and the like... basically a 4 or 5 day pre-programmed sequence so people could have most of the weekend off.

AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!
So is that waisting precious time or what...nobody looked at raw images , nobody to react because they are on holiday?
I'm not trying to start another "They deserve a rest once in a while" discusion , just thinking how many of you guys would sacrifice your holidays so that you can be in control of vehicle on Mars...I would...
Yes I know that it's not "just sit back and drive" but these guys are so privileged few who can DRIVE ROVERS ON ANOTHER PLANET...I would sell my soul to &$*#@ and work 365 days a year , without salary or food to have their job...are they looking for rover drivers?

[Enrique Bunbury]

Note that this problem has occurred during the 4 day Thanksgiving Holiday Weekend in the US.  I assume they parked both rovers at nice outcrops and planned LONG Mossbauer integrations and the like... basically a 4 or 5 day pre-programmed sequence so people could have most of the weekend off.

OMG! xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[edstrick]

Uh.... (imagined conversation)

Spouse to Rover Driver: "Either you figure some way to drive that (expletive deleted) thing over a clifF, or I'm getting a divorce. 90 days is one thing, but nearly two years and no end in sight, I'va HAD IT!"

It's not as though they were sitting there doing nothing.. It's just a decidedly unfortunate time for a glitch.

[Bill Harris]

...I would sell my soul to &$*#@ and work 365 days a year , without salary or food to have their job...are they looking for rover drivers?

Send JPL a resume', apply for the job...

Jet Propulsion Laboratory
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena, California 91109
United States Of America

[Toma B]

Spouse to Rover Driver:  "Either you figure some way to drive that (expletive deleted) thing over a clifF, or I'm getting a divorce.  90 days is one thing, but nearly two years and no end in sight, I'va HAD IT!"

Reminds me of my wife...
"Stop spending so much time on that? forum or else...."

[mike]

Women like attention. In particular, they like undivided attention into perpetuity for all eternity.

[elakdawalla]

Send JPL a resume', apply for the job...

You joke, but check out this message that arrived in my inbox two weeks ago. Most of us are sadly too old (or too foreign ) for this opportunity, but I'll bet we know some people who aren't. It's not rover driving but I'll bet you could meet some rover drivers as an intern on MRO...

The Mars Program Office at JPL/NASA has released the first request for applications for Mars Flight Project Internships !!!

The program is an outstanding opportunity for science and engineering students to contribute to current Mars Flight Projects, and become part of the next generation of scientists.

Mars Flight Project Interns will work at the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory ( Pasadena, California ) directly with leading Mars scientists and engineers on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) mission (http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/mro/). Initial Internships will run for a period of 6 months - from March 2006 to September 2006, on a full-time basis, with compensation for time/labor and relocation.
Opportunities include working with scientists on instrument calibration, science research, and aerobraking.

Internship eligibility requirements include being a student in good standing at an accredited university or college and U.S. citizenship or legal resident. The preferred education level for this internship program is junior or senior undergraduates or first or second year graduate students. University concurrence by department chair and an advisor recommendation will be required. Selection criteria will include (1) scholarship (GPA and publications) and experience; (2) education and career objectives and scientific interest; and (3) coursework. Internships are open to all students without regard to race, color, religion, national or ethnic origin, age, marital status, sex, military service, sexual orientation, or non-disqualifying disability. Additional Internship Program and Application information is available at http://www.sop.usra.edu/mars_intern/.

Regards,
Jeff Cardenas
USRA Program Manager

In regards to what may be an anomaly happening over a holiday, you can be sure that there are rover drivers on duty AND that they were taking a good look at what was going on (if it was an anomaly). There are just not any quick fixes for anomalies, holiday or no holiday. If there really is an anomaly they have to have a lot of people feel their way very slowly through what might have caused the problem, and how to test their theories through new sequences of commands and images and then work out a solution. Just remember how long they were stuck in Purgatory Dune. Be patient! We are SO lucky to have these images released so fast so that we can sit here on this forum and speculate about whether there might be an anomaly or not. If this were nearly any other mission, we'd never have seen those pictures, and wouldn't know what was going on for weeks or months, if ever.

--Emily

[odave]

Ah, if only I had seen an e-mail like that back in 1989....

[Toma B]

Is there any news on that stuck IDD arm???
Notice that last Steve Squyres Mission Update was on October 24, 2005...

[mars_armer]

Here's the information I have. At the beginning of the unstow sequence, the IDD tripped the circuitry that senses a motor stall (high current). The trip happened almost immediately after the azimuth motor started, which strongly suggests the arm is not physically jammed. (In that case, it would wind up before stalling.)

Hopefully it was just a glitch, such as a momentary current spike, but it takes a little while to sort out these things from a distance. To me, it seems unlikely that there is a permanent problem with the arm.

[ElkGroveDan]

Ah, if only I had seen an e-mail like that back in 1989....

I was thinking the same thing but for me it would have been 1986. I even lived in Southern California at the time. JPL would have been a 20 minute commute from my parents house.

[mike]

You could always go back (or just go, if it's the first time) to school. I'm tempted myself, but you know, I want to do everything..

[Bill Harris]

>Ah, if only I had seen an e-mail like that back in 1989....

In 1976 I was just out of college and landed a job as a "senior administrative intern" inspecting sewers for the county. Yep, work as a geotechnical grunt with a title...

--Bill

[odave]

Yep, JPL would have been a dream job for me. No regrets though, I still got to work with robots - they're just not as glamorous as these fly-boys/girls we talk about here.

Thanks for the IDD update, mars_armer.

[dot.dk]

The Pancam tracking site indicates some diagnostic being done tosol!

659 p1157.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 idd_debug_hazcam_lossless_512x1024_subframe_pri_27
659 p2626.02 0 0 0 0 0 0 pancam_sky_radiance_thumbs_L457R247
659 p2900.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 microscopic_imager_health_check_image
659 Total 0 0 0 0 0 0

[Guest_Edward Schmitz_*]

Yep, JPL would have been a dream job for me.  No regrets though, I still got to work with robots - they're just not as glamorous as these fly-boys/girls we talk about here.

Thanks for the IDD update, mars_armer.

I've always wanted to work for JPL, too. But now I'm working for Raytheon/SBRS who built the Mini-TES, TES and THEMIS instruments, so I'm pretty excited about that. We also had a visit from Phil Christensen. I have been meaning to write here about that but I just haven't had the time.

But I was in the highbay at JPL with the rovers while they were being assembled. That was the thrill of a lifetime! I was about 30 feet from one of them. I'll never know which one.

ed

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Still no sign of the IDD :

http://207.7.139.5/mars/opportunity/forwar...KCP1157R0M1.JPG

MI picture:

http://207.7.139.5/mars/opportunity/micro_...KCP2900M1M1.JPG

[Tom Tamlyn]

Yesterday the Planetary Society posted one of its excellent MER status reports.

http://planetary.org/news/2005/1130_Mars_E...ate_Spirit.html

The report quotes Albert Haldemann, rover deputy project scientist, as stating on November 29 that both rovers are in "good health."

This of course doesn't negate the possibility that JPL is keeping an emerging problem under its vest for now, but it's something.

TTT

[edit start] P.S. Whoops! whatonmars.com has just recorded a JPL Opportunity update that discusses the stalled arm.

http://whatonmars.com/?q=node/778

I continue to be impressed (depressed?) by how unnecessarily complex and cryptic the jpl MER site is. I tried several times to find this update starting with http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html, and failed each time.

This post has been edited by Tom Tamlyn: Dec 2 2005, 02:47 AM

[Toma B]

So it's hardware problem this time...

OPPORTUNITY UPDATE: Stalled Motor, Stowed Arm - sol 649-660, Dec 01, 2005:
"...This time, a shoulder-joint motor that is needed for unstowing the arm stalled, and the arm stayed stowed. In subsequent sols, engineers worked to narrow the range of possibilities for the cause of the stall. Among the remaining possibilities is that, after working more than seven times longer than originally planned, the lubrication is degrading...."

I continue to be impressed (depressed?) by how unnecessarily complex and cryptic the jpl MER site is.  I tried several times to find this update starting with http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html, and failed each time.

I had that same problem yesterday...finaly I find updates (The Mission>Rover Update) but I had to go to sitemap to do it....
It's that "*"Spirit and Opportunity One Martian Year Anniversary"*" part of MER home page that's just a little bit on the wrong place...earlier there was direct link to the updates...
Sorry about my english...

[CosmicRocker]

Thank you, Toma B. I finally found the lost updates with your help. I suspected it was a problem caused by the "One Martian Year Anniversary."

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status.html

I noticed two more "unexpected sequences," recently. I wonder what that means. I think they should move the rover to jostle the arm, and then try again.

[Tesheiner]

Imho, those "unexpected sequences" mean just that an actually executed sequence ID could not be found on a file containing the list of all planned sequences.

6. What unexpected sequences ran?  (that is, sequences we did not enter in the SSF
list file /home/mersci/pan/B/ops/Sol_all_seq_list.txt)

Sol  Seq.Ver
--- ---------
659 p1157.01
659 p2900.03

I remember seeing that same thing for a navcam post-drive panorama (<...searching on my notes...>, here! Oppy, sol 630), and my conclusion is that the sequence was actually planned but missed on the "description file".

Edited: More troubleshooting sequences planned for sol 600...
---
660 p1157.02 2 2 0 0 0 4 idd_hazcam_LOCO_512x1024_SF_pri27
660 p1157.02 2 2 0 0 0 4 idd_hazcam_LOCO_512x1024_SF_pri27
660 p1157.02 2 2 0 0 0 4 idd_hazcam_LOCO_512x1024_SF_pri27
...
660 p2900.03 1 0 0 1 1 3 microscopic_imager_health_check_image
660 p2900.03 1 0 0 1 1 3 microscopic_imager_health_check_image
660 p2900.03 1 0 0 1 1 3 microscopic_imager_health_check_image

This post has been edited by Tesheiner: Dec 2 2005, 09:57 AM

[Bill Harris]

I suspected that the IDD problem was a balky motor. Heck, at my age, my shoulder joint actuator is getting creaky, so I can sympathize. They'll work up a solution, though: after all, they've got a three-legged dog climbing mountains over at Gusev...

--Bill

[Tesheiner]

Sol 660 MI's are available.
No movement again...

Sol 659: http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportu...KCP2900M1M1.JPG
Sol 660: http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportu...KCP2900M1M1.JPG

[Vladimorka]

There is some slight movement, but enough just to confirm the inability of the motor to move :-(

[Tesheiner]

An animation with the five MI pics taken until now.

(98k)

[odave]

I'm not up on lubricants - is the suspected degradation a function of use or age or both? Has Oppy done more IDD work than Spirt, thus putting more "wear" on the lubricant?

[djellison]

I imagine it's much like the Spirit FR wheel issue - just one of those things that happens after some use, but isnt predictable. Unfortunately, there's no 'backwards' to running a joint, so perhaps some higher watermarks for current limits on the motor will help the problem, as perhaps will heating the hell out of it to redistribute grease hopefully (didnt work with Spirit's wheel) , but as with all the actuators and motors on the rovers, they're getting old.

Doug

[tfisher]

Playing "what if" with the worst case scenario: if the instrument depolyment arm is permanently stuck, what does that mean for Oppy? First, the mission would continue to operate, for at least as long as Spirit stays largely functional, or as long as the rovers stay mobile, whichever lasts longer. Squires said as much in his interview. For workable instruments, however, they would be down to cameras and Mini-TES.

I wonder what it would mean for power consumption. Do they have a way of killing power to the full arm, and would that be a significant savings when it isn't in use anyway? Suddenly if the Mini-TES is the only instrument besides optical cameras, preserving it from the threat of deep sleep becomes more important, I would think.

I hope our amazingly durable martian friend finds a way to bounce back from this problem, like it has from all others so far!

[odave]

I guess if we do lose the IDD, it's better to lose it stowed than deployed.

[odave]

Hmmm...if they can't free the arm with higher motor current limits, could they spin the RAT brushes while stowed to give the IDD some jiggling? Sounds risky, but it might help in a last-resort situation...

[Redstone]

I guess if we do lose the IDD, it's better to lose it stowed than deployed. 

Yes, which is another reason why the engineers will be extremely cautious with this problem. You wouldn't want to deploy the arm without knowing whether you will be able to stow it again.

[tasp]

Is it confirmed the fault is not with the protection circuit?

If the rover can be programmed to disregard the fault indication, could it verify the fault is in fact in the deployment motor/gear train?

[odave]

Doug's suggestion of opening up the current limits is probably safer. If there really is a mechanical problem, you wouldn't want keep running the motor regardless, as it might burn up. It's a tough problem to debug at a considerable distance...

[Bill Harris]

I'm not engineer, but I currently fly remote control aircraft with geared electric motors and in earlier incarnations worked with telescope gear drives. The IDD actuators are likely geared stepping motors and over time the gear train lubricants age and move away from critical points and, well, quit lubricating.

There are four actuators in the arm: a "shoulder joint" which provides left-right motion and near by is another joint which allows the arm to move forward-backward. The arm has two sections and the middle joint is like an elbow and that actuator provides more range of motion. The fourth actuator is like a wrist at the tool carrier and aligns the tool with the surface being thwacked. Of course, a fifth motor rotates the tool holder to select the proper tool.

Of the actuators, I'd figure that the first left-right shoulder joint is least critical and it could be left in one position and hthe arm might be stowed in a non-standard position without it.

I'm sure that there'll be a workaround...

--Bill

[ElkGroveDan]

Among the remaining possibilities is that, after working more than seven times longer than originally planned, the lubrication is degrading...."

If this is the problem then it certainly didn't occur suddenly. I am forced to wonder if they haven't noticed balky performance of that joint. Have there been current spikes during it's operation? Or can they even track that sort of thing? It would sure help to watch for similar problems on Spirit and other similarly lubricated joints on both rovers.

[odave]

Something is moving in these two FWD Hazcam frames.

1F186783443ESF64KCP1157L0M1.JPG

1F186783562ESF64KCP1157R0M1.JPG

This looks like a left-right motion to me, which would be produced from the azimuth/shoulder motor - correct?

Are they getting a little motion before the stall now?

Or is that not part of the IDD?

[akuo]

Something is moving in these two FWD Hazcam frames.

1F186783443ESF64KCP1157L0M1.JPG

1F186783562ESF64KCP1157R0M1.JPG

Yeah, something is moving - our point of view. Those are from left and right hazcams :-P
(L in the 4th last letter of the filename tells its the left hazcam, R is right)

[odave]

[Homer]

D'OH

[/Homer]

[jamescanvin]

I think I'm right in saying that the joint that has the problem (the shoulder) is the one with the stuck heater, right?

This would mean that the joint has had a lot more heating than the one on Spirit and what it was designed for. Could be responsible for possible problems with lubrication or any number of other unforseen things.

Or maybe not, just idle speculation...

James

[RNeuhaus]

Long time ago, when Oppy was inspecting inside the Endurance Crater, it had problems with a night with heating switch . It were drawing too much current so it was turned off during night sleeps. So Oppy has spent many days with deep sleeping mode without any heating for IDD.

Then, it might have accelerated the aging process of lubrication parts in joint arms. Otherwise, Spirit has undergone less often as deep sleep than Oppy so Spirit's joint arm is still working and is lasting longer than Oppy.

I am afraid if that problem is due to lack of lubricant on the joint arms. Then, there is no available solution to that unless "someone" is able to fly to where is Oppy to drip some valuable lubricant on the arm joints.

Rodolfo.

[dvandorn]

"mmmmrrrrllll mmmmcccnnnn."

"What did she say?"

"I think she said 'oil can'!"

Oppy is in a place where she can accumulate rust without ever getting wet...

-the other Doug

[Toma B]

Tom Tamlyn , CosmicRocker...looks like our criticism has been noticed by MER site moderators...
Updates are back where they used to be...



BTW it's just one more proof that NASA/JPL guys are watching this forum...if someone had any douth...

[Toma B]

I have just one more question:
Why are they staying in that one place??? They are unable to unstow IDD arm ( at least for now) so why aren’t they do one thing that they can do with $400M robotic vehicle on Mars…..DRIVE!!!!

Maybe they will find a way to fix this problem once but for now staying in that one place is, despite of that wonderful outcrop , waist of time…isn’t it?

[djellison]

Because they're sat right infront of some fantastic layering which they want to investigate.

Doug

[Toma B]

Because they're sat right infront of some fantastic layering which they want to investigate.

I know that, but consider how many fantastic "rocks","layerings","outcrops" are ahead of us...
There is one only 20-30 meters away...then there is that Victoria crater we all want to see...some of us in this lifetime...
Woud it be souch a terrible los if we skip this one?
Toma B.

[djellison]

It's the same argument that's been had a thousand times. Yes - it's nice to make progress, but yes - one has to take whatever science is infront of you because the rover may not wake up tomorrow.

For all we know - driving might worsen the IDD situation. The IDD may not even be properly parked, and driving could cause irreperable damage.

Yes - it looks like there are some nice outcrops ahead, but we already have one right infront of us - that we are already 'at' and already poised to investigate, with routines for the IDD already written. I can see the case for driving on, but I can see why there
1) may be reasons that we can't drove on
2) are good reasons to stay put till the IDD is fixed, or declared unuseable.

Doug

[sranderson]

I know that, but consider how many fantastic "rocks","layerings","outcrops" are ahead of us...
There is one only 20-30 meters away...then there is that Victoria crater we all want to see...some of us in this lifetime...
Woud it be souch a terrible los if we skip this one?
Toma B.

If you were a geologist, investigating never-before-seen-by-man northern Arizona, would you spend your limited time investigating outcrops near Flagstaff, or would you try to drive your jalopy to the Grand Canyon, even though it may fail on the way? Where would you be more likely to get detailed information on geology from eons past?

Scott

[djellison]

It look as though they're making the most of the pseudo 'down' time anyway - a full 360 Pancam mosaic, and a deck pan. They're already AT new terrain. Yes - it'd be nice to be doing 200m/sol and be at Victoria by Christmas, but sometimes things are just not possible.

Remember - for all we know, the IDD may have moved just enough to be considered un-parked and thus driving CAN'T be done. (infact, I think that's quite likely) - read the updates and it says that it stayed park on the first sol, then the second sol it recorded a small ammount of motion.

To make the anaology more appropriate, would you head out for the grand canyon to do geology without first checking you had your rock hammer and lens in your bag, and that your bag wasnt going to fall off the back of the truck on the way? Oh - and the Truck is parked on top of the first significant layering you've seen in 200 sols... get my point?

Yes - I can see why some would say "get moving" - but I can see why it may not even be possible ( so the argument is mute ) and I can see why they would want to look at what they're parked infront of.

Doug

[general]

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[mike]

They have to see if they can get the IDD working at some point. Why would they just completely give up on it without trying all the possibilities? Once they've tried everything they can think of to make the IDD work again, I'm sure they'll move on and do whatever they can (and periodically see if they can get it working again beyond that).

[Decepticon]

I figured out the real problem. Something is stuck under the arm.

[tasp]

{how'd that get there?}

[ElkGroveDan]

I figured out the real problem. Something is stuck under the arm.

You win the prize again -- somebody tell Fifth Star or whatever his name was.

[edstrick]

IF... big if.. let's hope not... they can't get the arm back in operation, the mission methodology changes to an essentially purely remote sensing operation. They drive to a target and do multispectral images and Mini-TES. Overall travel rate might increase by 50%, and the nature of observation/experiment objectives changes a fair bit.

[Cugel]

Suppose the risk of moving the arm and then getting it stuck in a stretched position is so big, management decides to leave it where it is now. Would that actually render the IDD completely useless? Would it still be possible to move the arm in the up/down direction and rotate the instruments head? If so, losing the movement in the x-direction can be compensated for by driving the rover right over the target. Of course this would mean a great limitation in the targets that it can investigate, basically only those that you can roll over are now within reach. But something is better than nothing, as an old Chinese saying goes...

Also, from an engineering point of view, it is very interesting to see how this vehicle slowly degrades. Lessons for next missions (manned and unmanned) can be learned by just watching which components fail and in what order. So, I wouldn't kill the mission too soon but rather stretch it as far as it goes (can talk to us).

[vikingmars]

Well... Even with no IDD, we have a (i) spacecraft that can move & (ii) able to do a lot of imaging and observations, (iii) with a TES working for which we can still make some kind of rock abrasion with the wheels...
Anyway, better than a Viking Lander !

[Jeff7]

And really, if the rover becomes a mobile camera platform, well hey, we've got Hubble, whose main mission is simply to take pictures. These things can still do a lot of work, even if it is "just" taking pictures.

Also, from an engineering point of view, it is very interesting to see how this vehicle slowly degrades. Lessons for next missions (manned and unmanned) can be learned by just watching which components fail and in what order. So, I wouldn't kill the mission too soon but rather stretch it as far as it goes (can talk to us).

Seems like lubrication is a big issue. It nearly paralyzed one of Spirit's wheels, and who knows, it might be an issue with Opportunity. Someone mentioned that 1) Opportunity has endured a lot more cold nights than Spirit due to its deep-sleep mode at night, and 2) it did a lot of IDD work in Endurance. Just during the trip down the slope into the crater, it made a lot of RAT holes.

[Toma B]

Weeelll....
Even if they find a way to fix IDD arm I guess it will not be used as much as before...
Maybe they will be gratefull to "Lady Fortuna" that IDD stoped working while stowed because this way they can still do some science with Opportunity...
BTW does anybody knows how much times IDD has been "Stowed-Unstowed"? (100 times or so?)

[RNeuhaus]

One solution might be good is that Oppy try to approach to the Mogollon rim where there is somewhat hard wall (aprox 1.6 meter tall). So Oppy must go with its own forward traction and put its arm against the wall and at the same time, turn on the motor to try to retract it.

That is the additional help force from the wheels tractionn to permit in overcoming the initial hardest friction to retract to a safe position before roving. After that, I don't think that IDD might be useful anymore.

The cold weather leads to wear sooner the lubrication. A good leason is to design wheels and movil parts not be so dependent of lubrication by using small diamond balls with some synthetic lubrication that can last thousands kilometers and can tolerate a very low temperature with a very low "W").

Rodolfo

[Bill Harris]

News update:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/daily.cfm#Opportunity

--Bill


Latest Opportunity Update
Stalled Motor, Stowed Arm
Opportunity Status for sol 649-660
Release Date: 12/1/05

Opportunity drove 43 meters on sol 649 (Nov. 20, 2005) and then bumped 10 meters to an outcrop for work with its robotic arm (instrument deployment device) over the Thanksgiving holidays. Opportunity's commands for sol 654 (Nov. 25, 2005) included unstowing the arm to begin using the tools on it for examining the layered outcrop that the rover had driven to three sols earlier. The arm is always stowed during drives. This time, a shoulder-joint motor that is needed for unstowing the arm stalled, and the arm stayed stowed. In subsequent sols, engineers worked to narrow the range of possibilities for the cause of the stall. Among the remaining possibilities is that, after working more than seven times longer than originally planned, the lubrication is degrading. One possible fix would be to increase the duration of the allowed motor start-up, to overcome the increased initial friction. The first diagnostic activity for the arm was performed sol 659, where a very small motion was recorded. Future diagnostic activities and continuing analysis will be performed to further characterize the shoulder-joint motor in upcoming sols.

As of sol 659 (Nov. 30, 2005), Opportunity has driven 6,502 meters (4.04 miles).

[SigurRosFan]

Bill: Note Toma's post (#46)

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...indpost&p=29540

[Reckless]

Hi Guys
I don't know if it's just a coincidence but the last time both rovers successfully used their microscopic imagers was on the same day 26th November(at least that is when images came down on exploratorium)
maybe some new stowing sequence delivered to both rovers about that date could have caused the problem?
Any ideas?

Reckless

[djellison]

An MI healthcheck image has been scheduled for Spirit on the pancam traking site for a couple of sols - so I wouldnt read anything into it - I think it might well be a comparison image to go "right,we know spirit's IDD is parked, what does the IDD show there....now what does the oppy image look like...." as a secondary visual gauge of the IDD's exact position - probably down to a sub millimeter accuracy I would imagine. Then - they'll be able to either

a) Set off in the knowledge that the IDD is properly parked and work on the issue while coveirng ground

or

Know they need to fix the issue right now as it isnt parked and thus they cant drive

Comparing the two
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/mi...W6P2900M1M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...KCP2900M1M1.JPG

It's clear that Oppy's IDD isnt parked in the same position as Spirit's - and thus it may be that it's not parked at all, or it's parked 'enough' to allow driving

That's my take on it all anyway.
Doug

[RNeuhaus]

Comparing the two
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/mi...W6P2900M1M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...KCP2900M1M1.JPG

It's clear that Oppy's IDD isnt parked in the same position as Spirit's - and thus it may be that it's not parked at all, or it's parked 'enough' to allow driving

That's my take on it all anyway.
Doug

The difference between two pictures, the ones of Spirit, the background image is, I seems, of surface land (stones on the mountain) and the ones of Oppy is on the sky (around Oppy has no high lands) but I am not sure of this. It is because, the upper of image there is a shadow line, I am not able to figure out of this. The center stick is of the arm. I seems that the Spirit's arm has a semi-wear scotch. The Oppy case has no scotch sticking on the arm.

Rodolfo

[mars_armer]

I haven't heard anything since Friday, but here's an update based on some inside information.

1. Opportunity's IDD is in a halfway-unstowed configuration. The arm unstows in four moves. The first move (apparently completed) raises the elbow toward the roof above it, in order to release a hook. The second move (not completed) is a joint 1 (azimuth) move that results in the elbow end moving forward, while the turret disengages its stow feature. The third and fourth moves get the arm in a neutral pose in front of the rover.

2. The arm itself doesn't appear to be mechanically hung up at either the elbow or the turret. The problem is in the motor of joint 1, which turns slightly, but stalls before even one motor revolution is completed. (The motor is a DC brush motor with magnetic detents. It fails to get out of the first detent.)

3. The team is experimenting daily on the arm, starting with parameter changes like
"stall persistence" (how quickly the circuitry shuts down the motor). They have not yet upped the current to the motor, but that should come soon. So far, the symptoms do not have an easy explanation.

In the worst case, if joint 1 can't be budged, the arm can be restowed because that action does not involve joint 1. In the meantime, I don't think the arm is in a configuration which is "officially" safe to drive. I also don't think they can easily experiment on joint 1 when the arm is stowed. So you may as well get used to this spot for a little while longer.

[helvick]

Nice update mars_armer. Mixed news but it's nice to see that the team are being thorough.

Patience is in order folks. I quite like the view to be honest, she could have been stuck in far less interesting spots.

[Bill Harris]

Ditto what Helvick said. Oppy is doing a LOT of nice Pancams of wonderful subjects.

--Bill

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

I also don't think they can easily experiment on joint 1 when the arm is stowed. So you may as well get used to this spot for a little while longer.

Oh well............. at least we have something interesting to look at this time.

[mars_armer]

More news today, and it's not too bad. A likely explanation for the problem is that one of the two motor windings is open (possibly the stuck open heater is a partial cause for this). It's not inconceivable that the motor could be operated on just one winding, so don't give up yet.

[Guest_Edward Schmitz_*]

Why would they need to use Spirit as a reference? They have the engineering units on the ground for that.

ed

[Jeff7]

The engineering units haven't been working in a Martian environment for over a year.

[dvandorn]

So, Oppy's endgame begins to play out... It's obvious that her IDD, if it can be made to work again, only has so many deploys left in it.

As Steve Squyres said in one of his many public speeches since the MERs landed, near the beginning of the mission, they would "whip out the arm" any time they got close to anything that looked even remotely interesting. But now that the rovers are getting older, the MER team is getting more cautious using things like the IDD, which could wear out and stop working at any time.

The arm can only be deployed a relatively few more times. The question now becomes, when and where?

I think the MER team needs to make some hard decisions. Do we continue to work up the interesting bedding and mineralogical differences we're seeing at the Erebus rim, or is there enough more to be gained by arriving at a locale like Victoria with a functioning IDD that would justify the risk of a mad sprint?

It would be very, very hard to sprint through the expanse of sporadically exposed bedrock that lies between us and Victoria without giving in to temptation and stopping to investigate. But, but, but -- can we deploy the arm 20 more times? Ten? Five? Two?

We just don't know. And we probably *won't* know until we rudely discover that the remaining number is zero.

IDD deploys may have just become the coin of the realm at Meridiani. Let's hope (and trust in a bit of luck) that we can spend it wisely.

-the other Doug

[Toma B]

...The question now becomes, when and where?

Maybe they should save it for Victoria, if we ever get that far....

Question:
What would happen if the IDD arm was fully unstowed when brakedown occurs...
Could Opportunity drive backwards dragging it behind him?