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Phobos-Grunt
tedstryk
post Jan 22 2005, 02:15 PM
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In Astronomy's February issue, they report that Russia has approved funding for the Phobos-Grunt mission. Design work has gone on since 1997, and the new design is scaled down to fly an a Soyuz rocket instead of the larger Proton. The main purpose is similar to Phobos-2, with the addition of a sample return. Also being discussed is the possibility of it carrying a few "meteorological stations" fof Mars itself. Generally, I have written this mission off as "never going to happen," but with the new Russian alliance with ESA, I wonder if they might be able to actually fly this thing. Also, with Putin's increasingly Soviet-style leadership, and with the likelyhood of lunar missions from China and India, Russian pride might drive this mission. If so, I have a concern. This mission sounds really, really ambitious. And the Russians have never even sent a fully successful Mars orbiter, and that is when they launched them in pairs or triplets. Still, if the mission flies, even if it doesn't bring back Phobos soil it might obtain some interesting results. Here is ESA's Phobos-Grunt page:
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permanent_...IJFW4QWD_0.html

Also, ESA has another page on potential Russian programs, although this seem to be nothing but pipe dreams at the moment. Would be a cool mission though.

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permanent_...0LFW4QWD_0.html

And also a page on the only partially realized current Russian project, its program to put instruments on other's spacecraft, such as HEND on Odyssey.

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permanent_...HMFW4QWD_0.html


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RNeuhaus
post Jun 16 2006, 07:38 PM
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The Phobos-Grunt spacecraft has a typical Russian design: rustic and simple in order to save useful weigh. That spaceship has a much greater volume proportion for fuel to the rest than any sonda that I have ever seen. The reason is to bring fuel for two ways!

Rodolfo
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_*
post Jun 17 2006, 12:25 AM
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QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 16 2006, 07:38 PM) *
The Phobos-Grunt spacecraft has a typical Russian design: rustic and simple in order to save useful weigh[t].

Well, since it's been quite some time since the Russians have had a successful interplanetary mission, we'll see if they can simply pick up where they left off, with a Phobos sample return no less.

Craig Covault has an interesting piece in this week's issue of AW&ST ("Russians Criticize U.S. on Lunar and Planetary Cooperation") where he states:

"Russia is reenergizing its lunar and planetary program with the planned launch of a sample return mission to the Martian moon Phobos and the launch of an ambitious lunar penetrator mission, the first Russian mission to the Moon in 30 years (AW&ST June 5, p. 20). But Russian managers here said the U.S. has shown little or no interest in Russian overtures for collaboration on these flights."

Translation: The Russians are under no illusions that they don't need partners to make these missions work, which is why, in the absence of any firm collaboration agreements, I remain skeptical that, for example, Phobos-Grunt will ever happen, nice graphics and lofty rhetoric notwithstanding.
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RNeuhaus
post Jun 17 2006, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jun 16 2006, 07:25 PM) *
But Russian managers here said the U.S. has shown little or no interest in Russian overtures for collaboration on these flights."[/indent]

Why aren't the Americans much interested to work with Russian's overtures? Let suppose that this cooperation will have many advantages for them and also to our mankind:
  1. Saves money.
  2. Interchange of knowledge, technology and experience..
  3. Shorten the development and launch cycle time.
I must admit that the above reason is just an ideal world. At this time and many centuries, we are still going to live with a country's domain barrier in our minds.
QUOTE
Translation: The Russians are under no illusions that they don't need partners to make these missions work, which is why, in the absence of any firm collaboration agreements, I remain skeptical that, for example, Phobos-Grunt will ever happen, nice graphics and lofty rhetoric notwithstanding.

Watch it out that Russian will probably join with others countries willing to work with him. Are ESA interested to work with Russian in returning its project of Phobos-Grunt?
I have the impression that ESA is at the present time not much interested to join with Russians to work on that project unless ESA is more interested on explorating on any Gallilean Moon: Europa.

Rodolfo
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Guest_DonPMitchell_*
post Jun 17 2006, 03:46 AM
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QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 16 2006, 06:40 PM) *
Why aren't the Americans much interested to work with Russian's overtures? Let suppose that this cooperation will have many advantages for them and also to our mankind:
  1. Saves money.
  2. Interchange of knowledge, technology and experience..
  3. Shorten the development and launch cycle time.


But unfortunately, I don't think any of these benefits would be seen. Russia would not supply a lot of money, they have almost no technology that NASA needs, and international planning could actually complicate development. ESA has needed Russia (or America) to perform interplanetary launches, but I think they also prefer to do things themselves if they can.

The fact that Russia launched Mars Express and Venus Express does indicate they can perform sophisticated tasks. And their Earth-resource and military satellites perform many of the same kinds of manuevers and sensor readings of a planetary probe.

I wish them luck. To be honest, I think international competition is a good thing, it will excite passion and public support for space exploration.
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_*
post Jun 19 2006, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jun 17 2006, 03:46 AM) *
The fact that Russia launched Mars Express and Venus Express does indicate they can perform sophisticated tasks. And their Earth-resource and military satellites perform many of the same kinds of manuevers and sensor readings of a planetary probe.

Unlike the case with interplanetary missions, Russia hasn't experienced a 20-year gap in launches, and no one really questions their launch capability. And I'm not sure that operating civilian earth-monitoring or military satellites is really that great an indicator as to whether they can pull off a Phobos sample return.

This post has been edited by AlexBlackwell: Jun 19 2006, 05:59 PM
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Guest_DonPMitchell_*
post Jun 19 2006, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jun 19 2006, 10:48 AM) *
Unlike the case with interplanetary missions, Russia hasn't experienced a 20-year gap in launches, and no one really questions their launch capability. And I'm not sure that operating civilian earth-monitoring or military satellites is really that great an indicator as to whether they can pull off a Phobos sample return.


I'm sure NASA could do it. I'd give Russia or ESA about equal likelihood of being able to pull it off. Military and Earth-resource satellites require technology for precise attitude control and orbital maneuvering, which I think would be relevant to a mission like this.
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Posts in this topic
- tedstryk   Phobos-Grunt   Jan 22 2005, 02:15 PM
- - SFJCody   There's a pdf document on these speculative mi...   Jan 22 2005, 02:58 PM
- - SFJCody   About the project Phobos-Grunt scheme of expediti...   Feb 2 2005, 10:42 AM
- - tedstryk   That is some pretty interesting stuff. Back in th...   Feb 2 2005, 01:07 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   An interesting tidbit from Tony Reichhardt's N...   Dec 14 2005, 07:07 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Dec 14 2005, 02:07 PM)...   Dec 14 2005, 07:31 PM
||- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Dec 14 2005, 08:31 PM)Ah...   Dec 14 2005, 11:32 PM
|- - ElkGroveDan   Let's hope they keep away from the Lipovitan-D...   Dec 14 2005, 07:37 PM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Dec 14 2005, 07:37 PM)Le...   Dec 14 2005, 08:19 PM
|- - Toma B   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Dec 14 2005, 10:07 PM)...   Dec 15 2005, 07:21 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   I think that if the Russians are coming to an end ...   Dec 15 2005, 09:45 AM
||- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Dec 15 2005, 09:45 A...   Dec 15 2005, 01:49 PM
||- - TheChemist   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Dec 15 2005, 11:45 A...   Dec 15 2005, 02:28 PM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Dec 15 2005, 09:45 A...   Dec 15 2005, 05:57 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 15 2005, 02:21 AM)So it w...   Dec 15 2005, 02:25 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Dec 15 2005, 02:25 PM)Wh...   Dec 15 2005, 05:03 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Dec 15 2005, 12:03 PM)...   Dec 15 2005, 08:14 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Dec 15 2005, 08:14 PM)I ...   Dec 15 2005, 08:18 PM
|- - JonClarke   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Dec 15 2005, 08:14 PM)I ...   Dec 16 2005, 12:30 AM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (JonClarke @ Dec 16 2005, 12:30 AM)And ...   Dec 16 2005, 01:52 AM
|- - Toma B   QUOTE (JonClarke @ Dec 16 2005, 03:30 AM)Toma...   Dec 16 2005, 07:14 AM
- - Decepticon   I say they rename the probe Mars-Lipovitan-D04A   Dec 14 2005, 10:27 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   The life detector on Gulliver was none other than ...   Dec 15 2005, 01:14 AM
- - RNeuhaus   I think that previously Russian has failed many mi...   Dec 15 2005, 08:33 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Dec 15 2005, 08:33 PM)I thi...   Dec 16 2005, 07:50 AM
- - edstrick   The soviets and the Russians after them have had a...   Dec 16 2005, 06:13 AM
|- - RNeuhaus   QUOTE (edstrick @ Dec 16 2005, 01:13 AM)After...   Dec 16 2005, 04:47 PM
|- - tedstryk   "To land on Venus is easier than to Mars? The...   Dec 16 2005, 07:30 PM
- - edstrick   Toma B: "....But it wasn't data it shoul...   Dec 16 2005, 08:17 AM
- - edstrick   Landing on Venus is "easy"... The US did...   Dec 17 2005, 05:58 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Exactly the same problem applies for a human-sized...   Dec 19 2005, 02:30 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 18 2005, 09:30 PM)Ex...   Dec 19 2005, 02:38 AM
||- - JonClarke   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Dec 19 2005, 02:38 AM)Ho...   Dec 19 2005, 03:03 AM
|- - JonClarke   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 19 2005, 02:30 AM)Th...   Dec 19 2005, 03:07 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Unfortunately, no -- at least for this document. ...   Dec 19 2005, 03:33 AM
- - edstrick   Note regarding the Viking clustered engines: Duri...   Dec 19 2005, 07:12 AM
|- - JonClarke   I was under the impression that Viking shut down j...   Dec 19 2005, 09:09 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   I may have to scrounge for confirmation, but I...   Dec 19 2005, 10:16 AM
- - RNeuhaus   I don't think that the next manned mission to ...   Dec 19 2005, 03:52 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   Note that Zakharov et al. have an abstract to be p...   Feb 22 2006, 04:21 PM
- - Bricktop   Video of Phobos-Grunt mms://restart.roscosmos.ru/...   Mar 10 2006, 09:03 PM
- - GravityWaves   Soyuz is soon launching from Europe's Kourou ...   Mar 25 2006, 05:32 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   Does anyone have any objections to merging this th...   Mar 26 2006, 05:43 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   I hope no one objects. I went ahead and merged th...   Mar 26 2006, 08:16 PM
- - Decepticon   I can't believe how many burns this probe need...   Mar 30 2006, 01:26 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   [size=2] Recent news seems to indicate that ...   Apr 11 2006, 09:57 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   The Russians have recently issued a video summary ...   May 6 2006, 02:55 AM
- - ljk4-1   This very recent article (in Russian) contains a d...   Jun 16 2006, 04:06 PM
- - DonPMitchell   Here are NPO Lavochkin's pages about it: Fobos...   Jun 16 2006, 07:09 PM
- - RNeuhaus   The Phobos-Grunt spacecraft has a typical Russian ...   Jun 16 2006, 07:38 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 16 2006, 07:38 PM) ...   Jun 17 2006, 12:25 AM
|- - RNeuhaus   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jun 16 2006, 07:25...   Jun 17 2006, 01:40 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 16 2006, 06:40 PM) ...   Jun 17 2006, 03:46 AM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jun 17 2006, 03:46 ...   Jun 19 2006, 05:48 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   The Russian design bureau's have habit of prop...   Jun 19 2006, 07:33 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jun 19 2006, 10:48...   Jun 19 2006, 08:23 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jun 19 2006, 08:23 ...   Jun 19 2006, 08:32 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jun 19 2006, 08:32...   Jun 19 2006, 08:47 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Jun 19 2006, 08:47 PM) ...   Jun 19 2006, 08:57 PM
||- - RNeuhaus   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jun 19 2006, 03:57...   Jun 20 2006, 03:25 AM
||- - tedstryk   QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 20 2006, 03:25 AM) ...   Jun 20 2006, 01:42 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Jun 19 2006, 01:47 PM) ...   Jun 19 2006, 09:06 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jun 19 2006, 09:06 ...   Jun 19 2006, 09:14 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jun 19 2006, 10:06 ...   Jun 19 2006, 11:31 PM
|- - tedstryk   Don't see a picture...   Jun 19 2006, 11:47 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Jun 19 2006, 11:47 PM) ...   Jun 19 2006, 11:48 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Jun 19 2006, 07:48...   Jun 20 2006, 12:36 PM
- - djellison   Not sure what's going on. The images all remai...   Jun 20 2006, 12:52 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 20 2006, 08:52 AM)...   Jun 20 2006, 01:45 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Doug: Maybe you can raise the limits re size/quan...   Jun 20 2006, 01:54 PM
- - djellison   http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showt...   Jun 20 2006, 02:07 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   Craig Covault, reporting from the Farnborough 2006...   Jul 17 2006, 07:36 PM
- - nprev   ...ambitious, hope that it flies!!! I...   Jul 20 2006, 12:01 AM
- - jamescanvin   It says 11 months transit each way. It also says ...   Jul 20 2006, 01:06 AM
- - AlexBlackwell   Note that Zakharov et al. have a related abstract ...   Jul 20 2006, 01:49 AM
- - konangrit   QUOTE Perminov also said China may sign a contract...   Sep 19 2006, 09:31 AM
- - IM4   In fact after global redesigning in 2003 some of F...   Sep 21 2006, 06:17 PM
|- - MaxSt   QUOTE (IM4 @ Sep 21 2006, 02:17 PM) Suita...   Sep 21 2006, 07:24 PM
|- - JTN   QUOTE (PhilHorzempa @ May 6 2006, 02:55 A...   Nov 25 2006, 02:02 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Thank you for this interesting contribution. Can ...   Sep 21 2006, 07:22 PM
|- - IM4   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Sep 21 2006, 07:22 P...   Sep 22 2006, 08:50 AM
- - RNeuhaus   Welcome IM4. Your report was very interesting. Sha...   Sep 21 2006, 07:23 PM
- - RNeuhaus   A new update. Russia Hopes To Launch Craft To Mis...   Sep 29 2006, 11:16 PM
- - Phil Stooke   There is this Phobos website: http://www.kiam1.rs...   Sep 29 2006, 11:45 PM
- - RNeuhaus   Phi, Many thanks for posting the URL. Rodolfo   Sep 30 2006, 12:13 AM
- - konangrit   QUOTE ...Nosenko said that Russia had agreed to he...   Nov 14 2006, 08:24 AM
- - infocat13   Perhaps HIRISE could assist with site selection?   Nov 16 2006, 02:08 AM
|- - tuvas   QUOTE (infocat13 @ Nov 15 2006, 07:08 PM)...   Nov 16 2006, 03:48 AM
|- - Stu   QUOTE (tuvas @ Nov 16 2006, 03:48 AM) Jus...   Nov 16 2006, 06:27 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (tuvas @ Nov 16 2006, 03:48 AM) I d...   Nov 16 2006, 08:00 AM
- - Phil Stooke   tuvas: "Just would like to know what the Rus...   Nov 16 2006, 02:18 PM
- - IM4   HERE you can see large photo of the full-sized Pho...   Mar 16 2007, 06:43 PM
- - konangrit   Some more details have been announced for the Chin...   May 24 2007, 03:37 PM
|- - mchan   QUOTE (konangrit @ May 24 2007, 08:37 AM)...   May 25 2007, 02:43 AM
- - AlexBlackwell   Thanks for the update, konangrit. Phobos and Deim...   May 24 2007, 07:02 PM
- - nprev   That IS tiny...makes me wonder if they intend to e...   May 25 2007, 04:59 PM
- - elakdawalla   I found a lot of information on this in a presenta...   May 25 2007, 05:37 PM
- - Adam   If I remember correctly there were plans for a swe...   May 25 2007, 07:05 PM
- - nprev   Thanks, Emily; terrific as usual (gee, you must be...   May 25 2007, 07:17 PM
- - elakdawalla   If all that it takes to be a journalist is to know...   May 25 2007, 10:30 PM
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