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The First Europa Lander, What can be done first, cheapest & best? |
 Dec 31 2005, 12:08 AM
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 Merciless Robot  Group: Admin Posts: 8791 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602  |
I think that many people in this forum would agree that somebody's going to have to land on Europa someday before the rather elaborate schemes to penetrate the outer ice layer will ever fly, if for no other reason than to get some relevant ground truth before committing to such an elaborate, expensive, and risky mission.
EO seems to have ruled out any surface science package for that mission (though it would be nice to change their minds!  ), but I think that there is a valid requirement at some point to directly assess the surface properties of Europa in an inexpensive yet creative way. Some candidate instrument payloads might be:1. A sonar transducer/receiver set embedded within a penetrometer to determine crust density and examine the uniformity of the ice layer within the operational radius of the instrument (looking for cracks and holes, in other words). 2. A conductivity sensor again embedded inside a penetrometer to measure the native salinity of the surrounding material and possibly derive some constraints on the composition of metallic salts in the European crust (saltiness has a major effect on ice properties, in addition to the obvious need to derive the salt content of any underlying ocean). 3. A seismometer for all sorts of reasons. How does this sound? Any critiques, additions, or subtractions? I omitted a surface imager not only because of bandwidth/extra complexity considerations but also because it seems desirable to penetrate the crust in order to minimize as much as possible reading any contaminants from Io during surface measurements. The orbiter data could be used to sense and subtract this from the penetrometer readings. -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Jun 28 2006, 10:49 PM
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#2
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1636 Joined: 9-May 05 From: Lima, Peru Member No.: 385 |
A panoramic camera plus an astronamic telescope to observe closer to Jupiter changing clouds would be a MUST! It is for observating for any change phenomena that might happen on Europa moon.
Rodolfo |
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Jun 29 2006, 07:23 AM
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#3
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14457 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 28 2006, 11:49 PM)  A panoramic camera plus an astronamic telescope to observe closer to Jupiter changing clouds would be a MUST! Why? If you want to observe jupiter - have a jupiter orbiter. Spending the time, volume, mass, energy and data to do it from the very very very harsh surface of Europa is just stupid. Doug |
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nprev The First Europa Lander Dec 31 2005, 12:08 AM
Steve G QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 30 2005, 05:08 PM)I think ... Dec 31 2005, 02:40 AM BruceMoomaw JPL's study of useful instruments for a small ... Dec 31 2005, 03:33 AM
JRehling QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 30 2005, 07:33 PM)St... Dec 31 2005, 04:38 AM
tty QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 31 2005, 05:33 AM)Th... Jan 1 2006, 11:04 PM edstrick as Bruce points out.. hit the surface slightly off... Dec 31 2005, 12:17 PM Bob Shaw There are *natural* penetrators as well as man-mad... Dec 31 2005, 12:40 PM gpurcell I think it is going to be pretty difficult to argu... Jan 1 2006, 05:01 PM nprev Re the penetrometer descent alignment problem: Wou... Jan 1 2006, 09:11 PM RNeuhaus QUOTE (gpurcell @ Jan 1 2006, 12:01 PM)I thin... Jan 5 2006, 05:06 PM BruceMoomaw Uh-uh. An object that short would take weeks -- a... Jan 1 2006, 09:42 PM nprev Hmm. How about a "semi-hard" lander al a... Jan 1 2006, 10:22 PM ermar QUOTE Europa has an atmosphere though it is extrem... Jan 1 2006, 11:52 PM tasp Perhaps a future mission would drop an impactor at... Jan 2 2006, 03:42 AM ljk4-1 QUOTE (tasp @ Jan 1 2006, 10:42 PM)Perhaps a ... Jan 3 2006, 03:49 PM tty It's too bad there is no GPS system on Europa.... Jan 3 2006, 06:19 PM nprev QUOTE (tty @ Jan 3 2006, 11:19 AM)It's to... Jan 3 2006, 08:40 PM nprev AlexBlackwell posted the fact that the 2006 Discov... Jan 3 2006, 11:59 PM ljk4-1 Tell me this wouldn't be useful for an Europan... Mar 29 2006, 07:47 PM ljk4-1 Karl Hibbitts describes a proposed hyper-velocity ... May 1 2006, 06:55 PM PhilHorzempa It seems that at the November 2005 COMPLEX meeting... Jun 27 2006, 04:07 AM Richard Trigaux Why to limit the life time of a surface lander? if... Jun 27 2006, 07:16 AM JRehling QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jun 27 2006, 12... Jun 27 2006, 07:04 PM nprev QUOTE (JRehling @ Jun 27 2006, 12:04 PM) ... Jun 28 2006, 01:30 AM Richard Trigaux QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 28 2006, 01:30 AM) ...... Jun 28 2006, 07:42 AM JRehling QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 28 2006, 03:49 PM) ... Jun 29 2006, 12:31 AM algorimancer Considering the deliverable mass potential, and ou... Jun 29 2006, 12:49 PM djellison I'm sure everyone would love a massive long li... Jun 29 2006, 01:00 PM Stephen QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 29 2006, 01:00 PM)... Jul 3 2006, 11:20 AM Richard Trigaux QUOTE (Stephen @ Jul 3 2006, 11:20 AM) Wo... Jul 3 2006, 11:44 AM Myran Yes I agree with djellison and others.
To give the... Jun 29 2006, 03:36 PM JRehling I don't think we can bet that a Europa rover w... Jun 29 2006, 05:51 PM JRehling QUOTE (Myran @ Jun 29 2006, 08:36 AM) The... Jun 29 2006, 05:55 PM RNeuhaus Now I understand that it is very expensive to send... Jun 29 2006, 08:14 PM djellison QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 29 2006, 09:14 PM) ... Jun 29 2006, 09:07 PM JRehling QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 29 2006, 01:14 PM) ... Jun 30 2006, 05:52 PM Bob Shaw QUOTE (JRehling @ Jun 30 2006, 06:52 PM) ... Jun 30 2006, 07:26 PM RNeuhaus QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jun 30 2006, 02:26 PM) ... Jul 1 2006, 02:45 AM nprev Harkening back to the origin of this thread, I com... Jun 30 2006, 12:50 PM algorimancer My rationale behind sending a rover initially is t... Jun 30 2006, 01:13 PM Bob Shaw QUOTE (algorimancer @ Jun 30 2006, 02:13 ... Jun 30 2006, 01:50 PM djellison Perhaps the cunning technique that would have been... Jun 30 2006, 07:35 PM DDAVIS QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 30 2006, 07:35 PM)... Jul 1 2006, 01:16 AM Richard Trigaux There are three ways to protect electronics from r... Jul 1 2006, 06:01 AM Bob Shaw QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jul 1 2006, 07:0... Jul 1 2006, 01:55 PM mchan QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jun 30 2006, 11... Jul 3 2006, 12:20 AM Richard Trigaux QUOTE (mchan @ Jul 3 2006, 12:20 AM) Besi... Jul 3 2006, 09:52 AM edstrick In the outer solar system, we have tended to find ... Jul 1 2006, 08:50 AM Myran Just offhand and without checking I dont think any... Jul 1 2006, 02:26 PM djellison Pushbroom?
Doug Jul 3 2006, 07:36 AM nprev Richard, that sounds good for a long-lived stand-a... Jul 4 2006, 01:09 AM Roly March 26 2006 Powerpoint on various Europa Lander ... Sep 3 2006, 07:07 AM angel1801 Has anyone thought of putting an Europa Lander at ... Sep 3 2006, 04:27 PM ugordan I would think the landing site will be determined ... Sep 3 2006, 06:37 PM JRehling QUOTE (angel1801 @ Sep 3 2006, 09:27 AM) ... Sep 4 2006, 05:15 PM Roly Any chance that the launch vehicle for the Europa ... Sep 4 2006, 03:01 AM edstrick The radiation is not FROM Jupiter. The radiation ... Sep 4 2006, 11:07 AM Julius Being modest,I'd still say that 3 days lifetim... Sep 5 2006, 08:03 PM nprev I still think a hard-lander, a penetrometer, or so... Sep 6 2006, 01:43 AM algorimancer Something like the MER's autonomous navigation... Sep 6 2006, 12:55 PM ugordan Still, the biggest problem is soft landing via pow... Sep 6 2006, 01:27 PM algorimancer I just had one of those Aha! moments and came ... Sep 9 2006, 09:24 PM Myran Thats a wild idea algorimancer.
But regardless ho... Sep 10 2006, 07:42 AM algorimancer QUOTE (Myran @ Sep 10 2006, 02:42 AM) Tha... Sep 10 2006, 01:05 PM nprev Hmm. Given that the Galileo data was a bit limited... Sep 10 2006, 09:00 PM Drkskywxlt I think any such impact with the surface of Europa... Sep 11 2006, 01:32 PM AndyG The (admittedly ill-fated) penetrators of Deep Spa... Sep 11 2006, 03:34 PM remcook Most importantly IMO is the whole uncertainty of t... Sep 11 2006, 04:12 PM algorimancer QUOTE (remcook @ Sep 11 2006, 11:12 AM) .... Sep 11 2006, 05:47 PM Julius Main objective should be to get a Europa lander sa... Sep 12 2006, 07:37 PM rasun Hi!
Apparently, NASA's Astrobiology, Scie... Nov 29 2007, 05:35 PM JRehling QUOTE (rasun @ Nov 29 2007, 09:35 AM) So ... Nov 29 2007, 08:36 PM DDAVIS This discussion is of particular interest to me as... Dec 3 2007, 11:17 AM JRehling QUOTE (DDAVIS @ Dec 3 2007, 03:17 AM) Thi... Dec 3 2007, 07:05 PM nprev Wow.
Don, only thing I can think of is that th... Dec 3 2007, 12:46 PM dvandorn I would say that not only is it imperative that a ... Dec 4 2007, 07:54 AM JRehling QUOTE (dvandorn @ Dec 3 2007, 11:54 PM) T... Dec 4 2007, 03:02 PM hendric QUOTE (JRehling @ Dec 4 2007, 09:02 AM) U... Dec 4 2007, 04:55 PM nprev Nihilistic, but IMHO painstakingly plausible, oDou... Dec 4 2007, 12:19 PM Cugel Why would you go all the way down to the liquid wa... Dec 4 2007, 01:06 PM JRehling QUOTE (Cugel @ Dec 4 2007, 05:06 AM) Why ... Dec 4 2007, 03:06 PM centsworth_II QUOTE (JRehling @ Dec 4 2007, 10:06 AM) I... Dec 4 2007, 03:55 PM marsbug I dont know about squid but there are many studies... Dec 4 2007, 04:35 PM Cugel QUOTE (JRehling @ Dec 4 2007, 04:06 PM) I... Dec 4 2007, 07:30 PM nprev QUOTE (Cugel @ Dec 4 2007, 11:30 AM) At l... Dec 5 2007, 01:45 AM tty QUOTE (JRehling @ Dec 4 2007, 04:06 PM) I... Dec 4 2007, 07:42 PM centsworth_II I think it's safe to say that the first Europa... Dec 4 2007, 05:58 PM dvandorn I don't think I'd be good with just openin... Dec 4 2007, 07:12 PM charborob A probe melting its way all through Europa's i... Dec 4 2007, 08:03 PM dvandorn My thoughts exactly -- it's going to be a very... Dec 4 2007, 08:58 PM hendric Well, RTGs actually put out quite a bit of heat, a... Dec 5 2007, 01:41 AM DDAVIS Wow, this discussion is great!
I am imaginin... Dec 5 2007, 07:10 PM tty Let's do some order-of-magnitude calculations ... Dec 5 2007, 07:23 PM hendric QUOTE (tty @ Dec 5 2007, 01:23 PM) Let... Dec 6 2007, 05:47 PM mchan QUOTE (dvandorn @ Dec 4 2007, 11:12 AM) A... Dec 6 2007, 04:20 AM nprev Gotta say that I'm pretty sold on the pristin... Dec 6 2007, 07:14 AM edstrick Both from a science and an engineering perspective... Dec 6 2007, 09:39 AM centsworth_II At the least, a first Europa mission should map th... Dec 6 2007, 05:02 PM |
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