IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Curious Phenomena In Shuttle Launches
ugordan
post Jan 25 2006, 09:34 PM
Post #1


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 3534
Joined: 1-October 05
From: Croatia
Member No.: 523



One thing has been bugging me for a while now. There's a curious feature that appears in many shuttle launch videos (well, not only shuttle videos, but they're most prominent there). I'm talking about the following optical effects:
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


Now, my sort-of-educated guess would be this is a shockwave related phenomenon. Once the launch vehicle becomes supersonic, it creates a shockwave that compresses air at its front. This changes the index of refraction if the shocking is strong enough.
The same thing happens during an atmospheric nuclear detonation where the shock can be seen "breaking" the traces of the smoke rockets behind the detonation (in case you ever wondered what the smoke rockets were for smile.gif)
Attached Image


I don't think it's related to optics in the tracker. Notice how the linear refraction is always perpendicular to the motion of the shuttle. What puzzles me is just how many of these linear features there are during the course of the liftoff. Furthermore, they seem to dance around each other exhibiting complex behavior one would not expect of a simple supersonic shock front...

Very interesting in any case, if anyone has more info about it, I'd be happy to hear it.
BTW, the launch video I took the screenshots from can be found at www.insideksc.com, specifically here.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
The Messenger
post Jan 25 2006, 10:07 PM
Post #2


Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 624
Joined: 10-August 05
Member No.: 460



I'm guessing that you are half right: That these are indeed pressure waves, but not from the shuttle flight surfaces - from fluctuations in the pressure waves caused by burning of the solid rocket propellant. Solid fuel burns quite chaotically -it's a rough ride. In addition, since they burn the entire length of the motor, there is a characteristic (very deep) resonant frequency. One of the reasons aluminum is used in solid rocket fuel is that the fluffly burn product - aluminum oxide - dampens the resonance which could otherwise build a pressure wave that blows off the nozzle or bursts the case.

The nozzles are also flexed-vectored during the launch, and this changes the direction and amplitude of pressure waves. Since your viewing angle is 'down wind' from the nozzle exhaust, the combination of both the natural variation in the burnrate, nozzle vectoring, and exhaust gas radiant heating of the surrounding air can all change the reflective index. This combination of factors is a likely cause of the visual artifacts you observe.

Edited to add: Looking more closely, it looks like the main liquid fuel is adding to the 'fire' too, so the expansion and radiant heat of all the exhaust gases is the most likely culprit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ugordan
post Jan 25 2006, 10:23 PM
Post #3


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 3534
Joined: 1-October 05
From: Croatia
Member No.: 523



QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jan 25 2006, 11:07 PM)
Edited to add: Looking more closely, it looks like the main liquid fuel is adding to the 'fire' too, so the expansion and radiant heat of all the exhaust gases is the most likely culprit.
*

I have a problem with that reasoning since one would expect the "vibrations" to expand concentrically away from the engines, yet in the third picture it's clear it always seems to be a line, not a feature centered around the engines. In fact, that "line" part is most puzzling to me. The refractions don't seem to be curved at all. That IMHO implies the refracting is taking place much farther from the launch vehicle where the shockwave starts to look like a flat front.
It probably has to do with changing speed of sound and temperature gradients in the atmosphere as the vehicle rockets skyward.
I just can't believe the shockwaves are due to the rocket exhaust, that would imply vibrations so strong they would invariably rip through every launch vehicle in existence.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- ugordan   Curious Phenomena In Shuttle Launches   Jan 25 2006, 09:34 PM
- - The Messenger   I'm guessing that you are half right: That the...   Jan 25 2006, 10:07 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jan 25 2006, 11:07 PM)...   Jan 25 2006, 10:23 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ugordan @ Jan 25 2006, 03:23 PM)I have...   Jan 26 2006, 05:28 PM
|- - DDAVIS   [quote=The Messenger,Jan 26 2006, 05:28 PM] They d...   Jan 28 2006, 12:15 AM
|- - DDAVIS   message moved to new thread   Jan 28 2006, 12:17 AM
- - dvandorn   I've seen that artifact many times -- it even ...   Jan 25 2006, 11:14 PM
- - tasp   The many protuberences of the shuttle (wings, OMS ...   Jan 26 2006, 02:27 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (tasp @ Jan 26 2006, 03:27 AM)So does a...   Jan 26 2006, 08:15 AM
|- - helvick   Just to clarify what I think is being discussed: ...   Jan 26 2006, 01:33 PM
|- - tty   QUOTE (ugordan @ Jan 26 2006, 10:15 AM)Also o...   Jan 26 2006, 02:03 PM
|- - paxdan   QUOTE (tty @ Jan 26 2006, 02:03 PM)Stranger t...   Jan 26 2006, 02:52 PM
|- - GregM   QUOTE (tty @ Jan 26 2006, 02:03 PM)There is c...   Jan 26 2006, 05:27 PM
- - edstrick   I've seen the straight line "oddities...   Jan 28 2006, 09:53 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (edstrick @ Jan 28 2006, 10:53 AM)The a...   Jan 28 2006, 11:14 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   I'd say that the bright lines and spikes are c...   Jan 28 2006, 02:23 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jan 28 2006, 03:23 PM)I...   Jan 28 2006, 04:46 PM
|- - helvick   QUOTE (ugordan @ Jan 28 2006, 05:46 PM)I coul...   Jan 28 2006, 07:00 PM
|- - ugordan   Sorry for resurrecting a long-dead thread, but I...   Nov 6 2007, 08:43 PM
- - djellison   Personally, I think these are shock waves. Very s...   Jan 28 2006, 10:18 AM
- - helvick   Seems like pretty compelling evidence that what we...   Nov 6 2007, 09:50 PM
- - stevesliva   Made me think of "vapor cones" http://en...   Nov 6 2007, 10:36 PM
|- - ugordan   Nope, Prandtl-Glauert singularities have a very na...   Nov 6 2007, 10:49 PM
- - stevesliva   Neat! Conclusively something else.   Nov 6 2007, 11:07 PM
- - helvick   Seems to be an attached supersonic shock wave made...   Nov 6 2007, 11:28 PM


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 25th May 2013 - 11:07 AM
RULES AND GUIDELINES
Please read the Forum Rules and Guidelines before posting.

IMAGE COPYRIGHT
Images posted on UnmannedSpaceflight.com may be copyrighted. Do not reproduce without permission. Read here for further information on space images and copyright.

OPINIONS AND MODERATION
Opinions expressed on UnmannedSpaceflight.com are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UnmannedSpaceflight.com or The Planetary Society. The all-volunteer UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderation team is wholly independent of The Planetary Society. The Planetary Society has no influence over decisions made by the UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderators.
SUPPORT THE FORUM
Unmannedspaceflight.com is a project of the Planetary Society and is funded by donations from visitors and members. Help keep this forum up and running by contributing here.